Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4.1%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 483069 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5760 on: October 08, 2020, 11:19:39 PM »
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I always liked Jo but lost count of the stories she would make up at any given point. anything new came into the case and she would match it. she even tried to claim Duane knew my father?

Yes,  :)   it became laughable-predictable.  Some stories people posted were plants - Jo took the bait every time. Its sad.  ;)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5761 on: October 08, 2020, 11:25:58 PM »
based on the last known photo's of her and where she is at now. sadly, I doubt she has much more time on this globe..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5762 on: October 13, 2020, 07:51:21 AM »
FJ posted some stills from Colbert's documentary surrounding the evidence. it appears to be a white bag. doubtful it's attached to the reserve or Tom would have seen it. the file FJ speaks about has error's in it. they state the backpack chute was pink. they state no drouge chute was on the open chute and conclude he used a drouge chute to wrap the money? Tina never mentions wrapping anything in white material. the same document states the reserve was white.

It's possible it's a container to hold the pink parachute? at this point the evidence and files are being shipped to Washington. this is years after Tom was there. it's a good catch but not sure of the value..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5763 on: October 13, 2020, 10:52:05 AM »
FJ, look at the top pic you posted with 3 pics. see the lettering on the bag...looks like FBI?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 10:57:20 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5764 on: November 02, 2020, 05:49:32 AM »
My first ever post.  So.....if DB had died in the jump, they would have absolutely found the fake bomb, his clothes (even after animal predation), and much more money and the chutes.  Come on!  Get real!!!  He made it.  So......  how does he get through the dark woods on a night like that?  HE USED THE FLARES THAT WERE THE FAKE BOMB!!!  Or he had a flashlight and better shoes and survival gear in his bag and Tina Mucklow did not see the last half hour of him fiddling about in the back near the stairs.  So he was far more prepared than most believe. And also, i have heard that there are roads not that far of a walk from the "wilderness".  I do doubt he had help though.  Because people just cant keep their mouths shut.   I have many more questions but Ill see how this one goes.  So do you think the flares were used to guide him out of the woods?
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5765 on: November 02, 2020, 10:11:25 AM »
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My first ever post.  So.....if DB had died in the jump, they would have absolutely found the fake bomb, his clothes (even after animal predation), and much more money and the chutes.  Come on!  Get real!!!  He made it.  So......  how does he get through the dark woods on a night like that?  HE USED THE FLARES THAT WERE THE FAKE BOMB!!!  Or he had a flashlight and better shoes and survival gear in his bag and Tina Mucklow did not see the last half hour of him fiddling about in the back near the stairs.  So he was far more prepared than most believe. And also, i have heard that there are roads not that far of a walk from the "wilderness".  I do doubt he had help though.  Because people just cant keep their mouths shut.   I have many more questions but Ill see how this one goes.  So do you think the flares were used to guide him out of the woods?

Welcome to the site.  How did DB Cooper get through the dark woods on a night like that?  One has to assume first that he was actually in the woods.  Many of us believe he landed near Battle Ground in a field, and was not in the woods.  Therefore he would not need flares.  Using a flare or a flashlight at night would have given him away.  The moon was about a half moon that night too, so he may not have even needed much in terms of a flashlight or flare.  Now, if he did land in the deep woods, that's a different story all together.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5766 on: November 02, 2020, 03:28:22 PM »
I second the welcome DB 57.

Recently released 302s from the FBI state that by 1975 the feds had revised their projected LZ for DB, saying that he jumped over Orchards, WA and landed a few miles to the northeast in Hochinson, WA. Many of us went for a tour of that area at the last CooperCon. Maybe you can join us for the next adventure! Bring boots, though, as Eric is talking about Bachelor Island, and it sounds swampy.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5767 on: November 02, 2020, 06:02:38 PM »
Thanks Bruce and fcastle for the responses.  I was wondering about the moon that night castle.  Good info. 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5768 on: November 02, 2020, 09:14:37 PM »
Lunar illumination would have been a little spotty as there were significant cloud layers at 3,500 feet and 5,000 feet. The moon was 3/4 full I believe? Georger knows.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5769 on: November 03, 2020, 05:16:49 AM »
He no doubt would have needed more than the moonlight in my opinion to negotiate strange dark woods with God knows what animals lurking?  "The Woods are dreary, dark and deep"  (Robert Frost).  DB has no promises to keep.  Only to himself it seems.  Like I said, he made it.  If he hadn't they would have found him, the chutes, the fake bomb and that would have been it. Instead we have another Alcatraz.  And I believe they made it also. The damn FBI should have given them immunity and told them to simply come forward.  But the FBI is too damn arrogant.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5770 on: November 04, 2020, 09:55:34 PM »
BTW, the FBI seriously considered offering DB Cooper immunity, back in the mid 1970s.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5771 on: November 06, 2020, 06:48:58 AM »
Where did you hear this Bruce? I would like to hear more about this.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5772 on: November 06, 2020, 09:24:12 PM »
A couple of different 302s that folks here sent me. Blew my mind, too. I'll go dig 'em up. They're going in the 3rd Edition, for sure.

Here's Chapter 40. The juicy stuff is in the first few paragraphs.

Chapter 40
Assessing the FBI’s 45-year investigation



The FBI is arguably the world’s best investigatory organization. So, why can’t they solve the DB Cooper case?

I asked former SA Gary Tallis that question, and his reply surprised me: “Because they haven’t found a body. If we had a body, all the answers would follow.”

But what happens to an investigation when there isn’t a body? Add to that conundrum, how should the FBI proceed when they have so little tangible evidence? It’s not an easy job, I admit. Losing evidence doesn’t help, either. But large bureaucracies experience screw-ups, lose stuff, and have less-than-adequate agents sprinkled throughout the organization, even at managerial levels. So, after their 45 years of investigating DB Cooper, how did they do?
 
There seems to be six distinct phases of the FBI’s Norjak investigation. The initial phase lasted for several years, and featured a full-court press from the Bureau, where they even investigated gentlemen nationwide who possessed the last name of Cooper. The bureaucracy’s reach was massive – interviewing SOG troopers returning home from Vietnam, chasing after copycats and ex-cons, and investigating skydiving centers, such as Elsinore. Or tromping through the woods in Amboy, searching hundreds of buildings throughout Clark County, or interviewing cabbies and waitresses in Portland.

However, by 1976 the Bureau’s momentum began to fade, as the FBI realized they had very little critical evidence. As a result, Phase Two emerged, characterized by the strategizing of original measures, even desperate ones that might generate some investigatory traction.

The FBI held a Pow-Wow that summer in San Francisco that included agents from Seattle, Portland, Las Vegas and San Francisco, along with top brass from the HQ. They discussed the status of their Norjak investigation, and admitted they were stymied. The Bureau felt they didn’t have a strong case to arrest or convict DB Cooper if apprehended. Simply, they didn’t trust their ten eye-witnesses – the three flight attendants, the two NWO gate and ticket agents, and five passengers - due to the variances in sketches. Plus, they had no physical evidence other than the placard find – remember this was before the money find at Tina Bar - and the 60 fingerprint samples from Reno were too smudged or too limited in scale to be legally probative.

In addition, they had lost confidence in their initial assessment on LZ-A, and determined the jump zone was ten miles south of their initial estimates. This put Cooper’s landing in the area of Hochinson, Washington.

Hence, they decided they needed DB Cooper to make a confession, as is described in a memo titled: “DB Cooper-19823.”

As a result, the FBI considered offering DB Cooper an immunity deal in exchange for the return of the $200,000. The Bureau pondered announcing this arrangement as part of the annual Cooper extravaganza in November 1976, and began tasking agents to contact local media outlets. However, the FBI never followed through for reasons that are unknown at this time.

This malaise lingered until the money find in 1980 at Tina Bar, triggering Phase Three. However, after the initial push to recover money - digging for days at the beach and an analysis by Dr, Leonard Palmer - this momentum eventually floundered as well, partially due to Ralph Himmelsbach’s retirement two weeks after the money retrieval. His successor in Portland, Dorwin Schreuder, told me that he and his division did not institute any investigatory efforts and only waited for the public to bring them leads. Whatever the Seattle Division’s perspective was remains shrouded in secrecy since case agent Ron Nichols refuses to discuss his investigatory efforts in any manner. Regardless, nothing was found or advanced during the 1980s, so perhaps Nichols has nothing of substance to say.

In addition, the FBI’s top witness, Tina Mucklow, was in her cloistered convent by then, and according to multiple FBI agents her memory was impaired.

As a result, a second Pow-Wow was held in San Francisco in 1986, and by then the Bureau’s Norjak lethargy was institutionalized. Nevertheless, another “Hail Mary” effort was concocted, pegged to the release of the movie: The Pursuit of DB Cooper. As part of their promotional campaign, Universal Studios announced a $1 million reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of Dan Cooper. However, it didn’t create any leads, directly.
But Hollywood’s offer did produce a lead for the FBI. An unknown letter-writer, who signed his offer, “sincerely not yours, d.b. cooper,” contacted the Bureau and agreed to surrender, but only if he could keep the film’s reward. In addition, he wanted his skypiracy prison term reduced to just one-year, and he demanded placement in a minimum-security federal prison. Further, “d.b. cooper” offered to repay Northwest Orient the $200,000 ransom. However, the FBI declined the offer, as per 164-81-8586.

Entering the 1990s, the Norjak investigation was dormant, signaling Phase Four. Evidence was reviewed by 1996, though, and an effort was launched to organize the physical evidence.

Sadly, Bureau discovered that all of the material stored in Las Vegas has been “destroyed,” presumably the cigarette butts as well, per SE-164A-81-9288.

Nonetheless, gadflies like Jo Weber and citizen sleuths, such as Galen Cook, began stirring the pot, signaling the beginning of Phase Five. By 2003, someone in the Bureau decided to “process” the cigarette butts, and DNA was being sought for suspects. In 2004, Galen sued the Bureau for access to the Norjak files, and this may be considered to be the “official” starting date for a real partnership between citizen sleuths and the FBI. I consider this development to be Phase Six, and it remains the current status of the investigation even though the FBI has officially closed the case.

Assessing these phases, we can identify particular people, places, and events that have been problematic. Some items might have resolution, some might not. But first, let’s talk about the Bureau’s successes:

What the FBI did right:
I say the Bureau did all the basics fairly well – securing the airliner and airport perimeters on the night of the skyjacking, interviewing airport employees to ascertain where Cooper came from and when, and debriefing the passengers at Sea-Tac and the crew in Reno. Later, the FBI did what it does so well – a massive, blanket investigation of person’s named Cooper, skydivers and soldiers, and all those lovelorn fellas that got thrown under the bus by their broken-hearted ladies.

The dig at Tina Bar was conducted adequately, in general, as all evidence indicates that the search was done thoughtfully and comprehensively. Yes, they could have taken more pictures, especially of the shards.

Larry Carr’s actions are stellar, as well. Establishing the Citizen Sleuths was superb, as was his posting on DB Cooper chat rooms.

But there is room for improvement. High on the list is lost evidence or poorly collected evidence, such as the fingerprints. Here’s a specific list:

....
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 09:44:17 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5773 on: November 06, 2020, 11:18:42 PM »
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A couple of different 302s that folks here sent me. Blew my mind, too. I'll go dig 'em up. They're going in the 3rd Edition, for sure.

Here's Chapter 40. The juicy stuff is in the first few paragraphs.

Chapter 40
Assessing the FBI’s 45-year investigation




 


The FBI is arguably the world’s best investigatory organization. So, why can’t they solve the DB Cooper case?

I asked former SA Gary Tallis that question, and his reply surprised me: “Because they haven’t found a body. If we had a body, all the answers would follow.”

But what happens to an investigation when there isn’t a body? Add to that conundrum, how should the FBI proceed when they have so little tangible evidence? It’s not an easy job, I admit. Losing evidence doesn’t help, either. But large bureaucracies experience screw-ups, lose stuff, and have less-than-adequate agents sprinkled throughout the organization, even at managerial levels. So, after their 45 years of investigating DB Cooper, how did they do?
 
There seems to be six distinct phases of the FBI’s Norjak investigation. The initial phase lasted for several years, and featured a full-court press from the Bureau, where they even investigated gentlemen nationwide who possessed the last name of Cooper. The bureaucracy’s reach was massive – interviewing SOG troopers returning home from Vietnam, chasing after copycats and ex-cons, and investigating skydiving centers, such as Elsinore. Or tromping through the woods in Amboy, searching hundreds of buildings throughout Clark County, or interviewing cabbies and waitresses in Portland.

However, by 1976 the Bureau’s momentum began to fade, as the FBI realized they had very little critical evidence. As a result, Phase Two emerged, characterized by the strategizing of original measures, even desperate ones that might generate some investigatory traction.

The FBI held a Pow-Wow that summer in San Francisco that included agents from Seattle, Portland, Las Vegas and San Francisco, along with top brass from the HQ. They discussed the status of their Norjak investigation, and admitted they were stymied. The Bureau felt they didn’t have a strong case to arrest or convict DB Cooper if apprehended. Simply, they didn’t trust their ten eye-witnesses – the three flight attendants, the two NWO gate and ticket agents, and five passengers - due to the variances in sketches. Plus, they had no physical evidence other than the placard find – remember this was before the money find at Tina Bar - and the 60 fingerprint samples from Reno were too smudged or too limited in scale to be legally probative.

In addition, they had lost confidence in their initial assessment on LZ-A, and determined the jump zone was ten miles south of their initial estimates. This put Cooper’s landing in the area of Hochinson, Washington.

Hence, they decided they needed DB Cooper to make a confession, as is described in a memo titled: “DB Cooper-19823.”

As a result, the FBI considered offering DB Cooper an immunity deal in exchange for the return of the $200,000. The Bureau pondered announcing this arrangement as part of the annual Cooper extravaganza in November 1976, and began tasking agents to contact local media outlets. However, the FBI never followed through for reasons that are unknown at this time.

This malaise lingered until the money find in 1980 at Tina Bar, triggering Phase Three. However, after the initial push to recover money - digging for days at the beach and an analysis by Dr, Leonard Palmer - this momentum eventually floundered as well, partially due to Ralph Himmelsbach’s retirement two weeks after the money retrieval. His successor in Portland, Dorwin Schreuder, told me that he and his division did not institute any investigatory efforts and only waited for the public to bring them leads. Whatever the Seattle Division’s perspective was remains shrouded in secrecy since case agent Ron Nichols refuses to discuss his investigatory efforts in any manner. Regardless, nothing was found or advanced during the 1980s, so perhaps Nichols has nothing of substance to say.

In addition, the FBI’s top witness, Tina Mucklow, was in her cloistered convent by then, and according to multiple FBI agents her memory was impaired.

As a result, a second Pow-Wow was held in San Francisco in 1986, and by then the Bureau’s Norjak lethargy was institutionalized. Nevertheless, another “Hail Mary” effort was concocted, pegged to the release of the movie: The Pursuit of DB Cooper. As part of their promotional campaign, Universal Studios announced a $1 million reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of Dan Cooper. However, it didn’t create any leads, directly.
But Hollywood’s offer did produce a lead for the FBI. An unknown letter-writer, who signed his offer, “sincerely not yours, d.b. cooper,” contacted the Bureau and agreed to surrender, but only if he could keep the film’s reward. In addition, he wanted his skypiracy prison term reduced to just one-year, and he demanded placement in a minimum-security federal prison. Further, “d.b. cooper” offered to repay Northwest Orient the $200,000 ransom. However, the FBI declined the offer, as per 164-81-8586.

Entering the 1990s, the Norjak investigation was dormant, signaling Phase Four. Evidence was reviewed by 1996, though, and an effort was launched to organize the physical evidence.

Sadly, Bureau discovered that all of the material stored in Las Vegas has been “destroyed,” presumably the cigarette butts as well, per SE-164A-81-9288.

Nonetheless, gadflies like Jo Weber and citizen sleuths, such as Galen Cook, began stirring the pot, signaling the beginning of Phase Five. By 2003, someone in the Bureau decided to “process” the cigarette butts, and DNA was being sought for suspects. In 2004, Galen sued the Bureau for access to the Norjak files, and this may be considered to be the “official” starting date for a real partnership between citizen sleuths and the FBI. I consider this development to be Phase Six, and it remains the current status of the investigation even though the FBI has officially closed the case.

Assessing these phases, we can identify particular people, places, and events that have been problematic. Some items might have resolution, some might not. But first, let’s talk about the Bureau’s successes:

What the FBI did right:
I say the Bureau did all the basics fairly well – securing the airliner and airport perimeters on the night of the skyjacking, interviewing airport employees to ascertain where Cooper came from and when, and debriefing the passengers at Sea-Tac and the crew in Reno. Later, the FBI did what it does so well – a massive, blanket investigation of person’s named Cooper, skydivers and soldiers, and all those lovelorn fellas that got thrown under the bus by their broken-hearted ladies.

The dig at Tina Bar was conducted adequately, in general, as all evidence indicates that the search was done thoughtfully and comprehensively. Yes, they could have taken more pictures, especially of the shards.

Larry Carr’s actions are stellar, as well. Establishing the Citizen Sleuths was superb, as was his posting on DB Cooper chat rooms.

But there is room for improvement. High on the list is lost evidence or poorly collected evidence, such as the fingerprints. Here’s a specific list:

....

and those ground breaking 302s people sent you are ? You said there are two! 

Will there be a Bruce Smith/FBI NORJAK Conference?

How reliable is your history of NORJAK? How many 302s have you read?  The two you were sent ?

re-SF seminar 1976. Expiration of NORJAK warrant 1976! Application for perpetual 'John Doe' warrant.  Reward offered. ... Merwin Lake area search ...
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 12:26:36 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5774 on: November 06, 2020, 11:34:29 PM »
Index – FBI FOIA Release to 10/30/20:

Files 8-5- 19 Part 01-39
Part 01 001-35 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 02 001-22 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 03 001-23 DBC none - 1972 articles
Part 04 001-25 DBC none - 1973 suspects money articles
Part 05 001-06 DBC none - 1974 articles money list
Part 06 001-25 DBC none - 1974-06 articles money list Norjack warrant
Part 07 001-25 DBC none - 1980 news articles H retires
Part 08 001-232 DBC 001-631 - 1971-72 case facts suspects
Part 09 001-487 DBC 632-1211 - 1977-1980
Part 10 001-523 DBC 1212-1763 - 1977-79 IMPT orig Case Facts! – Coffelt
Part 11 001-456 DBC 1896-2277 -1971 Drop zone
Part 14 001-409 DBC 3291-3794 - 1971 msc
Part 19 001-103 DBC 5838-5958 - FP revised Crew shown photos etc
Part 20 001-264 DBC 5959-6224 -1971 WX report that nite
Part 21 001-88 DBC 6225-6341 -  Chute bugged!
Part 22 001-359 DBC 6342-6707 - crew looks at photos etc
Part 25 001-391 DBC 7963-8464 - 1972 McCoy msc
Part 27 001-436 DBC 8978-9521 - 1972 TAG team etc Flo sketch McCoy
Part 28 001-482 DBC 9524-10055 - 1972 push for better evidence
Part 29 001-463 DBC 10056-10582 - 1973 IMPT radar data re-eval - searches cont
Part 30 001-414 DBC 10583-11089 - 1972-73 Ground Search-
Part 31 001-332 DBC 11091-11596 - 1973 common nothing outstanding
Part 32 001-457 DBC 11597-12096 - 1973 Pressure Bump IMPT etc
Part 33 001-452 DBC 12097-12597 - 1973-74 Lake Merwin suspect
Part 34 001-460 DBC 12598-13104 - 1974 IMP case summary
Part 35 001-382 DBC 13387-13386 - 1975 msc
Part 36 001-483 DBC 26330-14136 -  1971-75 ATC tapes
Part 37 001-467 DBC 14137-14654 - 1976 conference Merwin search
Part 38 001-356 DBC 14655-15158 - 1976 msc, Merwin search, Ariel chute…
Part 39 001--446 DBC 15159-15662 – 1976

Latest Release 2020:
Part 01 001-035 DBC none - 1971 Lewis River fraud
Part 34 001-460 DBC 12598-13103 - 1973-74
Part 36 001-483 DBC 2633-14136 – 1975
Part 37 001-457 DBC 14137-14654 - 1975-76
Part 40 001-417 DBC 15666-16045 -  1977-78 Mucklow-Ratzk-Rackstraw
Part 44 001-316 DBC 17689-18213 – 1980
Part 45 001-408 DBC 44150-18741 – 1980
Part 46 001-384 DBC 18744-19262 - Money files 1980
Part 47 001-349 DBC 19263-19775 - 1982-84
Part 48 001-146 DBC 19776-20075 - 1976-89
Part 50 1989 001-397 DBC 20597-21098 –
Part 51 001-416 DBC 21099-21600 - 1977-2000 Weber etc
Section 6 001-099 DBC 3395-3794 - 1971 Ransom letter prints
Section 8 001-091 DBC 4305-4395 - 1971 Letters and Lab work
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 12:28:43 AM by georger »
 
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