Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.7%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.5%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.6%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (37.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 787722 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8085 on: August 20, 2022, 06:37:42 PM »
Yes, I saw. Dr. Edwards and I have been kindly emailing frequently about this aspect of the case along with several others.

I’m slowly conducting research on an scholarly paper I plan on writing and having published. His help and the other of other experts have been invaluable, and I will be indebted.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8086 on: August 21, 2022, 03:38:31 PM »
I have to offer a correction, in my earlier post about Ammerman's suggestion that an error was made in the frequency, I said that it appears to be a new story and Ammerman had never mentioned it before.

I was wrong. It was discussed on here in the summer of 2019. It was a new idea then, not now.

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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8087 on: August 22, 2022, 11:42:58 AM »
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R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?

JAG, I'm afraid I don't find the Ulis/Ammerman explanation very convincing.  You are not mucking anything up.

When I joined DropZone in 2009, before I made my first post, I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  They were in digital format on disks and I had a photographic company print out a hard copy for my personal use.  The total cost was about $400 not counting the cost of antiacids that I needed in dealing with a certain NARA sub-contractor.  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today).  Eventually, I sent all of the original disks to Fred Poyner at the WSHM and they are available on that site today.

Here is a general picture of how airspace was divided in 1971.  From sea level (or ground level) to 18,000 feet, IFR traffic used the Low Altitude Charts for navigation and the airways were named Victor Airways.  Everything from 18,000 to 60,000 feet used the High Altitude Charts and were named Jet Airways.  Above 60,000 feet, everything was VFR (not IFR) and point-to-point.

Cooper specified that the airliner was not to fly above 10,000 feet above sea level.  This is also the minimum altitude for obstacle clearance and radio navigation/communications reception on the flight south from SEATAC.  These altitudes were established for air traffic control purposes on V-23.

At times during this segment, radio contact with ARINC was lost and communications were relayed by two other airliners to an ARINC facility.  When in the California area, Oakland Air Traffic Control told the airliner to switch to the Sacramento ARINC frequency and they did so.  But this did not have anything to do with air traffic control.

In the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, a total of 19 areas of redactions are indicated.  There were no redactions indicated in the Oakland Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.

The roll of ARINC teletype transcripts included with the Harrison papers was made avail to Fred Poyner at the WSHM.  He made a study of what was on that roll, which had been sliced up considerably, and the public released teletype transcripts.

Poyner concluded that there were 8 areas in the ARINC transcripts of "missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual 'blocks' or entries of text."  He listed a total of 30 "entries of text" that were missing for the period from 4:45 PM to 8:05 PM PST, inclusive.

Poyner also concluded that there was nothing missing between time stamps for 8:10 PM to 8:24 PM PST when compared to the public released transcripts for this time period.

For anyone wishing to pursue this further, the Seattle and Oakland Air Traffic Control transcripts and some of the ARINC teletype transcripts are posted here on Shutter's site.  Fred Poyner's analysis, or at least part of it, may be available on the WSHM web page.       
Im guessing Cooper has cost you more than $400?  He has cost many people plenty of money.   And some, more than what he stole.  I always wondered after watching the Prison Break act on the Cooper heist, does anyone think its possible he actually did get more?  That the FBI and the Northwest Airlines could have liked about the dollar amount?  Or are there just too many cooks in the kitchen for that to have happened?

You are correct.  That $400 was just the start and a lot more has followed including more than 10,000+ miles of driving and several months on the road.

My personal opinion of Cooper is that he was extremely lucky one afternoon and evening until he step off the aft stairs and came face to face with Mother Nature who is a severe task maker.  And a minute or two later he was on the ground and deceased.

There is zero evidence to back up your claim that he died in the jump and I believe NO WAY.    He survived the jump.  Its after that we do not have any idea.  Well some ideas, but none that are fool proof.
Hey Chaucer, you are the Zodiac researcher here right?  I see several YouTube feeds claiming they know who the Zodiac was and that its solved and al of that. But there is so much crap out there.  Do you know if its actually proven as to his identity?  I certainly do not believe that Jack The Ripper was the guy that they recently named on a couple of channels.  I do believe that it was Charles Lechmere.

Conversely, there is zero evidence to back up your claim that Cooper survived the jump or that he was Charles Lechmere.
NO NO NO!!  I did not say Cooper was Charles Lechmere.  I said I believe Jack the Ripper could have been Charles Allen Cross Lechmere
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8088 on: August 22, 2022, 12:31:36 PM »
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My personal opinion of Cooper is that he was extremely lucky one afternoon and evening until he step off the aft stairs and came face to face with Mother Nature who is a severe task maker.  And a minute or two later he was on the ground and deceased.

There is zero evidence to back up your claim that he died in the jump and I believe NO WAY.    He survived the jump.  Its after that we do not have any idea.  Well some ideas, but none that are fool proof.
Hey Chaucer, you are the Zodiac researcher here right?  I see several YouTube feeds claiming they know who the Zodiac was and that its solved and al of that. But there is so much crap out there.  Do you know if its actually proven as to his identity?  I certainly do not believe that Jack The Ripper was the guy that they recently named on a couple of channels.  I do believe that it was Charles Lechmere.

Conversely, there is zero evidence to back up your claim that Cooper survived the jump or that he was Charles Lechmere.
NO NO NO!!  I did not say Cooper was Charles Lechmere.  I said I believe Jack the Ripper could have been Charles Allen Cross Lechmere

I stand corrected.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8089 on: August 26, 2022, 08:37:20 AM »
Another excellent post by Dr. Edwards:

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My best guess is what has been said all along:  there was a mistaken frequency and the transcriber transcribed the wrong sector communications.

To whit:

When R2 provides 305 with the 133.9 frequency, we should see, almost immediately thereafter, 305 say "Center, three oh five, thirty three point nine, ten thousand." This would be followed by the sector controller saying, "Northwest three zero five, ident."

We see none of that exchange.

Moreover, at 8:13:14, we should see the sector operator say, "Northwest three zero five, contact Seattle Center at one twenty point nine." and then 305 respond with "Twenty point nine".

Instead, all we see is 305 contacting R5 on the new frequency.

These exchanges HAD to have happened, but they are not transcribed.

This begs the question:  who was 305 talking to between 7:59 (Malay) and 8:13 (Battleground)? Ammerman says it wasn't him on R4, and R16 doesn't cover that area. Did it get tossed back to R2? Not likely because R2's procedure would have been to provide 305 with the correct frequency (Ammerman). We know they had to be talking to SOMEONE because we know the handoffs had to occur even if they aren't transcribed

I'm not suggesting any grand conspiracy or suspicious redaction - that's the laziest form of analysis. Nevertheless, it raises questions that I am not sure can even be answered.
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8090 on: August 26, 2022, 09:01:20 AM »
I wish you would answer my question about the Zodiac killer?  I assume you are the only one here working it?  I cant remember if its Shutter or Chaucer though?  So much on Cooper and so little on the Zodiac.  I do not really want to get mixed up in a Zodiac site where I am sure the waters are plenty muddied.  Cooper, Zodiac, Jon Bonet, and our old pal Jack the Ripper, are the big ones and then of course the never ending JFK assassination.  "If you have never seen "The Smoking Gun", its an interesting theory.  They believe that Hinchey, a former and now deceased CIA agent that was one car behind the President, accidentally discharged his rifle firing the fatal shot.  And  then a huge coverup.  Its certainly possible. 

So anyway, how about this Zodiac killer?  Do  you believe he has been identified?  Or at least it is narrowed down?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8091 on: August 26, 2022, 09:19:40 AM »
Timeline of Flight 305 Comms during Seattle to Reno Leg

Air Traffic Control
Seattle Ground on frequency 121.7 mhz until take off at approximately 1936 PST
Seattle Tower on 119.9 mhz and Seattle Departure on 120.1 mhz? if so, from ~1936 to 1937:11 PST (but there is no transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R2 (name unknown) on 128.3 from 1937:11 to 1959:15 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC (position and name unknown) on 133.9 mhz from 1959:15 to 20:13:14 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R5 (Cliff Ammerman) on 120.9 mhz from 20:13:14 to 20:33:46 (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R6 (name unknown) on 125.8 mhz from 2033:46 to 2103:36 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R10 (name unknown) on 125.3 mhz from 2103:36 to 2145:29 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Oakland ARTCC on various frequencies from 2144 to 2235 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Reno Approach and Tower on various frequencies from 2232 to 2332 PST (as per WSHS transcript)

Northwest Airlines
SEADD, MSPFO (probably Paul Soderlind, possibly others) on patched ARINC frequency 131.8 mhz from ~1936 PST (or earlier) to 2022 +/-3 PST
(Approximately 2020 PST communications lost with 305 on ARINC frequency 131.8, then re-established at frequency 131.9 as per Soderlind’s notes)
SEADD, MSPFO (probably Paul Soderlind, possibly others) on ARINC frequency frequency 131.9 mhz (ARINC frequency, patched) from 2022 +/-3 PST until shutdown at Reno.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 09:24:46 AM by Chaucer »
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8092 on: August 26, 2022, 09:22:39 AM »
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So anyway, how about this Zodiac killer?  Do  you believe he has been identified?  Or at least it is narrowed down?
I'm a moderator on zodiackiller.net. If you want to talk about the Zodiac case, that's a great place to start.

The Zodiac case remains unsolved, and the Zodiac Killer remains unidentified. The last I know from connected sources is that law enforcement is attempting to use DNA and forensic genealogy to pin someone down. The hunt continues.
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8093 on: August 26, 2022, 10:11:53 AM »
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So anyway, how about this Zodiac killer?  Do  you believe he has been identified?  Or at least it is narrowed down?
I'm a moderator on zodiackiller.net. If you want to talk about the Zodiac case, that's a great place to start.

The Zodiac case remains unsolved, and the Zodiac Killer remains unidentified. The last I know from connected sources is that law enforcement is attempting to use DNA and forensic genealogy to pin someone down. The hunt continues.

So do you believe he is dead now?  Thanks
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8094 on: August 26, 2022, 11:03:40 AM »
His age range was reported to be anywhere from 25 to 45, so he'd be between 75 and 95 today. I really don't know.
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8095 on: August 26, 2022, 11:40:51 AM »
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His age range was reported to be anywhere from 25 to 45, so he'd be between 75 and 95 today. I really don't know.

Monsters like that usually do not have it within them to simply stop.   So likely he is either dead or in prison?  But he sure would draw attention if he were in prison.  I doubt he could keep his mouth shut.  I feel its highly unlikely that him or Cooper are still alive but who knows?   So many opinions.  It seems the more popular belief is that Cooper survived the jump  Obviously McKay does not agree.  He believes he died the  night of the jump and dragged by ships.  But one thing I would argue is that he would have let go of that bomb, real or fake (likely fake), right away.  Why would he simply keep it all the way  to the  ground?  Unless he knew he had his fingerprints on it?  Either way, if he died during the jump, something would have been found.  As for Zodiac, its probably far more likely they  will solve that beyond any doubt than lets say Jack the Ripper.  I am with the Swedish journalist who put Charles Allen Cross Lechmere at every murder scene.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8096 on: August 26, 2022, 05:48:52 PM »
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Timeline of Flight 305 Comms during Seattle to Reno Leg

Air Traffic Control
Seattle Ground on frequency 121.7 mhz until take off at approximately 1936 PST
Seattle Tower on 119.9 mhz and Seattle Departure on 120.1 mhz? if so, from ~1936 to 1937:11 PST (but there is no transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R2 (name unknown) on 128.3 from 1937:11 to 1959:15 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC (position and name unknown) on 133.9 mhz from 1959:15 to 20:13:14 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R5 (Cliff Ammerman) on 120.9 mhz from 20:13:14 to 20:33:46 (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R6 (name unknown) on 125.8 mhz from 2033:46 to 2103:36 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Seattle ARTCC position R10 (name unknown) on 125.3 mhz from 2103:36 to 2145:29 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Oakland ARTCC on various frequencies from 2144 to 2235 PST (as per WSHS transcript)
Reno Approach and Tower on various frequencies from 2232 to 2332 PST (as per WSHS transcript)

Northwest Airlines
SEADD, MSPFO (probably Paul Soderlind, possibly others) on patched ARINC frequency 131.8 mhz from ~1936 PST (or earlier) to 2022 +/-3 PST
(Approximately 2020 PST communications lost with 305 on ARINC frequency 131.8, then re-established at frequency 131.9 as per Soderlind’s notes)
SEADD, MSPFO (probably Paul Soderlind, possibly others) on ARINC frequency frequency 131.9 mhz (ARINC frequency, patched) from 2022 +/-3 PST until shutdown at Reno.

Following are the specific ARINC frequencies mentioned in the transcripts:

7:27 PM PST - The airliner crew was told to switch to the ARINC 131.8 frequency after leaving the NWA company frequency.  The NWA company frequency (frequency never specified), given as "company ground" in some transcripts, was not an air traffic control frequency.

7:54 PM PST - The airliner crew was told that after leaving this frequency to go to ARINC 131.8 and that a direct phone patch was there.

8:22 PM PST - "Lost communications on 131.9 ARINC frequency switched to 131.8 ARINC."  There is nothing to indicate that the airliner was ever on the 131.9 frequency.  There is a remote possibility that the 131.9 frequency was the NWA ground frequency but that is very doubtful.  In any event, at this time the airliner was about 35 Nautical Miles south of the PDX VORTAC (which is now the Battleground VORTAC) and about 135+ Nautical Miles from the NWA facility at SEATAC.

8:48 PM PST - "Next frequency will be 130.6 SFC ARINC."  This was to inform the airliner crew that the San Francisco ARINC frequency was 130.6 but did not tell them to switch there.

9:34 PM PST - "On 131.8 until RBL then 130.6 SFC ARINC."  This was to inform the airliner to switch to the San Francisco ARINC frequency when arriving at the Red Bluff VORTAC.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8097 on: August 26, 2022, 07:40:36 PM »






Here are the relevant documents from the 302. The first two are from is ARINC TTY and the third is from Soderlind's notes.

At 7:54, on the ARINC teletype, Flight Ops in Minneapolis told Flight 305 “After leaving this frequency go to 131.8. We have a direct phone patch there.” Flight 305 acknowledged.

At 8:20, on the ARINC teletype, Flight Ops in Minneapolis tells Flight 305 to go to 131.8” This is the phone patch referred to at 7:54.

At 8:22, Soderlind reports in his notes that they "lost communications on NWA frequency 131.9 and that the crew had previously been advised to switch to ARINC on 131.8 when NWA communications lost". So, they must have been talking to Soderlind on 131.9 until approximately 8:20, and then switched to 131.8 for the new phone patch.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 07:43:09 PM by Chaucer »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8098 on: August 26, 2022, 09:12:51 PM »
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Here are the relevant documents from the 302. The first two are from is ARINC TTY and the third is from Soderlind's notes.

At 7:54, on the ARINC teletype, Flight Ops in Minneapolis told Flight 305 “After leaving this frequency go to 131.8. We have a direct phone patch there.” Flight 305 acknowledged.

At 8:20, on the ARINC teletype, Flight Ops in Minneapolis tells Flight 305 to go to 131.8” This is the phone patch referred to at 7:54.

At 8:22, Soderlind reports in his notes that they "lost communications on NWA frequency 131.9 and that the crew had previously been advised to switch to ARINC on 131.8 when NWA communications lost". So, they must have been talking to Soderlind on 131.9 until approximately 8:20, and then switched to 131.8 for the new phone patch.

Chaucer, the documents you quote above are not from the 302s.  They are copies of the ARINC teletype transcripts posts.  And they do not at any time tell the airliner crew to switch to an ARINC frequency of 131.9, even if ARINC had such a frequency.

Could a reference to 131.9 be in one of the redacted posts that WSHM personnel determined had been deleted from the ARINC teletype transcripts posts?

But I almost forgot that you don't believe in redactions or deletions even when they are starring you in the face.

The above is not an insult.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #8099 on: August 26, 2022, 09:49:14 PM »
You can read FBI 64, p. 306 if you still don't believe these are from the 302s. In that document, which I posted and you clearly didn't read, it said, "Lost communications on NWA communications frequency (131.9)."

There's no reason to discuss redactions because everything here is quite clearly represented in the 302s or ARINC TTY.


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