Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1418561 times)

snowmman · « **Reply #7230 on:** September 06, 2021, 10:14:49 PM »

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In your posts about Air America a few pages back, there is a name that is familiar to me. If it's the same guy, but knowing a bit about his background it may well be. Would be interesting if it's the same guy R99 is referring to.

interesting comments dudeman17
one new thing buried in the long Air America report from 2020 that is relatively new (that researcher in texas is damn good)..his interview with Kirkley..
the 727 in that Takhli test was flying damn slow. I think it was slower than cooper. They said wheels down also.

and it was flying lower (so denser air?)

interesting point about wanting smooth soles to avoid twisting an ankle. Hadn't thought of that issue.

Interesting that a name popped up that you recognized. I guess the jumping world was pretty small back then.

georger · « **Reply #7231 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:28:10 PM »

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interesting. diatoms (some) occur in soil. I wonder if the cooper bill diatoms are definitely not soil diatoms?

Although most diatom species occur in aquatic habitats, specific diatom communities occur in soil where they grow with other microalgae and cyanobacteria. In the soil food web, algae serve as food for soil protozoa and micro- and meio-fauna such as nematodes or collembolans.

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Diatoms are a widespread group and can be found in the oceans, in fresh water, in soils, and on damp surfaces.

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(1956)
A Survey of Soil Diatoms
By JOHN M. w. HAYEK AND ROBERT L. HULBARY
Although extensive work is being done in stream surveys and
in the taxonomic study of aquatic forms of diatoms, very few
papers have appeared relative to diatoms in soil. Petersen ( 1935)
made stud.ies of algae in soils of Denmark and East Greenland
in which he included a consideration of the diatoms present.
Thirty-seven species of diatoms were listed as being present in the
soils of Denmark and East Greenland.

The work of J. W. G. Lund ( 1945, 1946) seems to be the only
fairly complete study of soil diatoms He reported 13 genera and
52 species from his observations of 66 British soils.

This investigation was undertaken to determine qualitatively
the complement of diatom species in six different soils in the
vicinity of Iowa City, Iowa. Separating diatoms from the various
soils and deaning them presented

note soil vs water species ... are the species found on the money also found in soil?

georger · « **Reply #7232 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:31:19 PM »

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one thought I had:

No one has recreated a bill in the condition of the Tena Bar bills.
I would think it would be possible to create a bill (with fungi/mildew) damage, with knowledge of the right cellulose attaching microbes.

I have some twenties from 1963A and 1969. I was wondering how I could make them look "Tena Bar-like" in less than a year. Constantly damp yes. Buried in sand? probably not. Maybe buried in earth with active fungi. Not too deep?

and that it would take less than a year to create such a bill, with controlled environment. I can't imagine that the cooper bills would take years to reach their state if I want to reproduce. The fungi growth must stop at some point, like if environmental conditions no longer support the fungi/mildew.... Because note that the fungi growth didn't continue on the bill after discovery. So moisture, and maybe non-O2 environment (plus the right microbes) is needed.

Tom Kaye talked about how anaerobic conditions were a bad thing. But maybe not. There are many microorganisms tha t actually don't like oxygen.
"Cellulolytic fungi" I think is the magic phrase
US Army studied this to understand why fatigues and cotton tents were rotting away

See the "Hungate Roll Tube method for cultivation of Strict Anaerobes"
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Robert E. Hungate – Grandfather of Anaerobic Microbiology
by Jonathan Lin

Louis Pasteur once said, "Fermentation is life without air." Although many microbes need the oxygen in the air to live, not all of them benefit from it. There are many bacteria that thrive in oxygen-depleted (anoxic) environments such as sediments, sludge, and the guts of animals. Many of these bacteria, the anaerobes, are extremely sensitive to oxygen (see this previous post ) and instead 'breathe' by using a myriad of other compounds as electron acceptors (see here). Historically, it has been difficult to study anaerobes in the lab because the oxygen in the air would stress and often kill them. The development of methods to grow anaerobes was an important stepping stone in microbiology, one that paved the way for the discovery of many new bacteria and radically changed our understanding of microbial metabolism. Many of these discoveries could not have been possible without the pioneering work of Robert E. Hungate. Affectionately referred to as "Mr. Rumen" or even "Bob" by his students and colleagues, Hungate was the first to develop refined methods to grow strict anaerobes. Accordingly, he dedicated his career to advance new techniques to culture and study anaerobes in anoxic environments. The "Hungate technique" is widely known and used in many labs today, but I believe that his life and scientific impact deserve greater appreciation by today's young microbiologists.

Hungate's original paper is here (1973)
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I'm not even sure what type of science would be the best to discuss currency decomposition.

US Treasury Forensic Lab - Mutilated Money Section.

also conservators that specialize in money/paper decomposition-restoration; several that work out of the Chicago Art Institute Conservator Section or Met. Art Museum in NYC. ... Darren had money specialist on his show.

snowmman · « **Reply #7233 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:40:29 PM »

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note soil vs water species ... are the species found on the money also found in soil?

I read Tom's paper in detail after posting the above.
I think he covered the diatom issue very well. After reading it, I think he's right about summer water borne diatoms going inbetween bills.

but: all that means, is that minimally the bills were free in water in the summer. Flooding on Tena Bar would have done that, if the bills weren't very well buried.

It is interesting to ponder whether they were only exposed to one (summer) season's worth of flooding, or submersion.

it's possible they were exposed to more, and the way they were subsequently exposed, didn't attach diatoms as expected.

There's not enough info about how diatoms attach over multiple seasons I think. Tom did provide some cases to compare against...but it's hard to say what it all "proves"

it suggests some things. Like the money was definitely exposed to Columbia water at some time?

but it doesn't rule out lots of things.

Chaucer · « **Reply #7234 on:** September 06, 2021, 11:51:42 PM »

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note soil vs water species ... are the species found on the money also found in soil?

I read Tom's paper in detail after posting the above.
I think he covered the diatom issue very well. After reading it, I think he's right about summer water borne diatoms going inbetween bills.

but: all that means, is that minimally the bills were free in water in the summer. Flooding on Tena Bar would have done that, if the bills weren't very well buried.

It is interesting to ponder whether they were only exposed to one (summer) season's worth of flooding, or submersion.

it's possible they were exposed to more, and the way they were subsequently exposed, didn't attach diatoms as expected.

There's not enough info about how diatoms attach over multiple seasons I think. Tom did provide some cases to compare against...but it's hard to say what it all "proves"

it suggests some things. Like the money was definitely exposed to Columbia water at some time?

but it doesn't rule out lots of things.

We also don’t know where the money was in the bank bag. Assuming that it came from the bank bag, was it at the bottom? Squeezed in the center? At the top. How secured was bag? Enough to protect it from elements until it got wet?

Lots of questions.

snowmman · « **Reply #7235 on:** September 07, 2021, 01:51:03 AM »

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We also don’t know where the money was in the bank bag. Assuming that it came from the bank bag, was it at the bottom? Squeezed in the center? At the top. How secured was bag? Enough to protect it from elements until it got wet?

Lots of questions.
[/quote]

yes. I was wondering about this scenario:
money in bag
goes in columbia.
sinks to bottom
gets covered in sand etc.
years go by. Then it gets dredged.
Somehow the dredge spoils make it to "near" where it's found. Bank bag is torn/rotted by this point.
Then it's discovered (the bundles)

I'm not sure Tom Kaye's stuff discounts a dredge theory.
Lots of people have discounted dredge theory, saying they can "prove" this or that.
But I think a dredge story is still a possibility.

Buried at the bottom of the Columbia in cold anaerobic-environment sand, would preserve rubber bands and bills, I think. Until it got removed by dredging?

The dredging might be the first exposure to diatoms, if it was protected/buried in the years before dredging.

dredging may have been in spring? Or the diatoms may have come from flooding. Although the need to get into separated bills....was that after being freed from river bottom? Or when money was subjected to flooding?

If money was wet for a long time, it may have turned bricklike and not absorbed diatoms on inner bills well? dunno.

Chaucer · « **Reply #7236 on:** September 07, 2021, 02:46:55 AM »

I have posited this scenario:

1. Cooper no pulls and his body and the tightly secured bank bag land along the northern banks of the Columbia River between the I-5 and I-205 bridge.
2. It remains there in the woods along the shoreline all winter until the spring floodwaters reach the bank bag.
3. The bag is carried by the river (perhaps on a piece of debris such as a log or large branch or perhaps by Cooper's own corpse) down to Tena Bar
4. The bag eventually becomes unsecured and some money spills out into the shallow waters of Tena Bar
5. The money bundles fan out and sink before being covered by sand and silt as the floodwaters recede
6. The remaining money along with any remnants of Cooper are swooped downstream and eventually end up at the bottom of the Pacific
7. The money remains buried on Tena Bar until it is discovered by Mr. Ingram

This would align with the flight path. It would account for the diatoms not accumulating until spring. It provides a reasonable and natural explanation for the money to be deposited where it was. It would explain why no sign of Cooper was ever found outside of the money.

It checks all the boxes. EXCEPT, I have no physical evidence to prove it. So it just remains a hypothesis for now.

snowmman · « **Reply #7237 on:** September 07, 2021, 02:56:34 AM »

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I have posited this scenario:

1. Cooper no pulls and his body and the tightly secured bank bag land along the northern banks of the Columbia River between the I-5 and I-205 bridge.
2. It remains there in the woods along the shoreline all winter until the spring floodwaters reach the bank bag.
3. The bag is carried by the river (perhaps on a piece of debris such as a log or large branch or perhaps by Cooper's own corpse) down to Tena Bar
4. The bag eventually becomes unsecured and some money spills out into the shallow waters of Tena Bar
5. The money bundles fan out and sink before being covered by sand and silt as the floodwaters recede
6. The remaining money along with any remnants of Cooper are swooped downstream and eventually end up at the bottom of the Pacific
7. The money remains buried on Tena Bar until it is discovered by Mr. Ingram

This would align with the flight path. It would account for the diatoms not accumulating until spring. It provides a reasonable and natural explanation for the money to be deposited where it was. It would explain why no sign of Cooper was ever found outside of the money.

It checks all the boxes. EXCEPT, I have no physical evidence to prove it. So it just remains a hypothesis for now.

well there's the issue of the so-called dredging layer created after 1971 at tena bar?
the money was found above that according to Palmer.

So you'd have to put some years on your steps.

Chaucer · « **Reply #7238 on:** September 07, 2021, 02:58:34 AM »

If I’m not mistaken, that dredging layer and Palmer’s report, have been called into question.

snowmman · « **Reply #7239 on:** September 07, 2021, 03:07:36 AM »

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If I’m not mistaken, that dredging layer and Palmer’s report, have been called into question.

Okay, so the claim is that the Tena Bar beach where the money was found, was undisturbed by man from 1971 to 1980?

hard to believe?

Chaucer · « **Reply #7240 on:** September 07, 2021, 03:16:16 AM »

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If I’m not mistaken, that dredging layer and Palmer’s report, have been called into question.

Okay, so the claim is that the Tena Bar beach where the money was found, was undisturbed by man from 1971 to 1980?

hard to believe?

No, but the dredging location was misidentified. The actual money find was further north by several yards.

snowmman · « **Reply #7241 on:** September 07, 2021, 03:21:21 AM »

tom kaye made these declarations (and still has them there)
what's weird, is whether he still thinks what he said here, makes sense given his diatom study

He randomly guesses they were buried early, then exposed by erosion.

What he says here makes no sense to me. He says the dredge wasn't involved, but the dredging operation may have kept sand over the bills until 1980.

He just randomly guesses that the dredge wasn't involved. He says dredging operations may have kept the bills covered (i.e. sand displaced either by nature or man, from the dredging spoils)..because he likes that answer, not because of any massive "facts"

It's interesting to me that the photos of the dredging locations...i.e. the 4 photos that Carr provided aren't available any more? or are they? I probably have them somewhere. I remember rotating them and putting 4 side by side to compare them from the various years. Oh wait, Tom Kaye does seem to have the 4 pictures I aligned side by side! You can see the different bumps in different years.

this was the montage I created from the Carr provided photos. The circled areas are apparently from the FBI marking them originally. The FBI photos weren't oriented in a way for easy comparison.

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I also think it's weird he thinks "50 yards" is some kind of super accurate measurement. ...It's like someone saying "Oh about half a football field or so" ...If you're on the beach pushing sand there, you're not grading for condominums. There's nothing measuring where you're putting it.

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The discovery of the natural clay layers suggests that Palmer misinterpreted the clay as man-made when it fact it was a natural part of the beach stratigraphy. Palmer working with limited information could not have interpreted the clay layers as a natural feature of the shoreline. The continuous erosion of the sand since 1980 to its current level (Figs. 4,5), suggests that prior to 1974, the level of the beach was maintained by the addition of dredging sands. These sand deposits can be seen in subsequent years moving downstream with river flow along the sand bar. This further suggests that once the dredging sands were no longer replenishing the beach after 1974, natural erosion took place which eventually uncovered the Cooper Bills in 1980.

...
The Palmer Report was based on the information available at that time. The new information Fig. 3 Overlay of original 1974 photo of the dredging operation on Google Earth. The hump in the beach line is where the dredge pipe unloaded sand onto the beach. The red line is a 50 yard scale bar to show the extent the sand was pushed aside. The yellow marker is the recovered money find 150 yards away.gathered in this study now indicates that the dredging operation did not transport the bills from the bottom of the Columbia River but could have been a contributing factor to the bills staying buried until 1980.

snowmman · « **Reply #7242 on:** September 07, 2021, 03:23:57 AM »

Note that along with all sorts of claims, everyone wants to claim they know the place the money was found, better than the FBI agent who put those circles on those pictures

snowmman · « **Reply #7243 on:** September 07, 2021, 09:43:46 AM »

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If I’m not mistaken, that dredging layer and Palmer’s report, have been called into question.

Okay, so the claim is that the Tena Bar beach where the money was found, was undisturbed by man from 1971 to 1980?

hard to believe?
No, but the dredging location was misidentified. The actual money find was further north by several yards.

Well my opinion is that once people start saying "several yards" or other fine-grained detail about cooper evidence, it's speculative.
All the cooper evidence has a wide range of error. locations etc.
there's just not enough historical data to be sure of a lot of things.

dredging happened. the spoils were deposited on the beach near where the money was found.
bulldozer was used to move spoils around.

how does that relate to money being found. dunno. All sorts of possibilities. Not enough data to rule out things.

Were the clay layers "natural" as opposed to man-made from spoils? dunno. Not sure it really matters. I mean the money could have arrived there any time from 1971 thru 1980.

nothing that's known narrows the period of arrival.

as to what goes thru a dredge:
think about how rocks and sticks go thru, up to a certain diameter.
If they can go thru, why can't a money bag?

People say they "know" what happens when you put a money bag that's been sitting in the columbia, through a dredge.

they don't know. ( i mean are they saying they "know" it's shredded like a blender? How can they know that? If that is true, why isn't a rock shredded? just because it's hard? If non-hard things are always fully shredded, than a rock would break the shredding mechanism....There's a "in-between" where it's possible for non-hard things to pass. (like all wooden sticks don't get shredded) Same for plastic stuff.

as a different experiment: What do you think happens if you run over a money bag full of money with a lawnmower? Do you think all the bills get shredded? Now if the bills had been sitting at the bottom of the columbia for years, and you did the same thing: What gets flung out the discharge hole of the mower? Surely not shredded paper.

Water+sand mixed in, would soften the effect.

I'm not going all-in on dredging directly..just saying that when people rule it out, they're speculating. It's always a possibility.

snowmman · « **Reply #7244 on:** September 07, 2021, 01:32:36 PM »

the best thing the montage of the sand/bumps shows, is the large variation in sand deposits, both the bumps extending into the Columbia, and the overall area around the tena bar find location, over the years.
i.e. sand (minimally) changes. Was clay involved at any point? dunno.

the variation is due to possibly
1) natural deposition/movement/erosion due to water/flooding
2) man (bulldozer)
3) direct suction dredge output.....I believe they used the flexible-pipe-on-floats method, to deposit directly there, although it's possible they carried material on barges from longer distances. If the material was transported by barge and then dumped there, the possible location the money was originally at, extends to all the areas the barge collected dredge output from.

If a clamshell dredge was used at any point in this, it becomes easier to think of cooper money being scooped up from the bottom of the columbia without damage

There's some history of how the dredging was done, but there can always be stuff that wasn't recorded or remembered correctly.

My main point is that the same amount of thinking should be used for possibly including a theory, as excluding a theory. Too often, people exclude stuff with very little data.

Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1418561 times)

snowmman

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georger

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georger

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Chaucer

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Chaucer

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Chaucer

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Chaucer

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snowmman

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snowmman

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