Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4.1%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 480880 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5910 on: January 03, 2021, 08:08:15 PM »
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It was at this point the hijacker instructed her to tell the pilot he wanted the note and envelope back that he had given to the other stewardess. he also wanted the empty matchbook cover back from which he had been lighting his cigarettes and had thrown into the back pouch of the seat in front as she would always do. she indicated he had another book of matches the cover was blue and said sky chef from which she had pulled matches to light his cigarettes. he retained this book of matches..

This was her second interview which contradicts her first statement.

Tosaw writes that Tina said Cooper put the original matchbook in his pocket (not in the back pouch on the seat in front of him).

Where does this claim of an envelope come from?  I don't remember seeing any mention of an envelope anywhere.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5911 on: January 03, 2021, 08:11:07 PM »
both of my quotes are from the original statements after the crime and a second interview with Tina not long after. December 3, 1971

"At one time she lit a cigarette for him with the last match in the paper match folder. when she attempted to discard the empty card folder, the hijacker decisively took it from her and placed it into one of his pockets, stating he didn't want her to throw it away"

This was the first interview shortly after they landed in Reno..
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 08:12:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5912 on: January 03, 2021, 08:30:12 PM »
The envelope is mentioned in Tina's second interview..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5913 on: January 03, 2021, 08:39:20 PM »
Flo states she got a pen and pad from her purse to take notes from Cooper. he said " Take this down" that is different than what Tina claims...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5914 on: January 03, 2021, 08:51:09 PM »
Cooper gave Flo the note in the envelope and it ended up in the cockpit and Tina was mistaken on what Flo wrote the demands on? that's possibly why Cooper asked for the envelope back. did the envelope turn into a matchbook later down the road?

Tina mentions the envelope in both interviews..her first interview says:

Schaffner at the time on a plain envelope wrote out the demands of the hijacker...then lists the demands.

Rataczak states the following

Schaffner brought a note on what appeared to be a standard 6x9 tablet written with a felt pen as well as an envelope that had notations also containing the figure of $200,000, two back parachutes, and two chest packs and under it a time of 5:00 pm.

It appears Tina is correct...
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 09:10:24 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5915 on: January 03, 2021, 11:21:12 PM »
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This isn't a movie and states notes meaning more than one. did he have multiple matchbooks to write in. none of it makes sense.

What does make sense is the original statements made. Cooper gave a note to Flo and then instructed then from that point on. Tina stated somewhere in using a pay sheet to write on. Cooper requested all the notes to be returned to him and nothing about returning any matchbooks? the matchbooks would be in the cockpit.

Yea, no kidding it is not a movie.  The point is that you can write notes in a matchbook if that is what you choose or what you have at your disposal.  I don't put a lot of weight on the matchbooks myself, maybe on the cigarettes. 

The term "convey" could mean the notes were transported in the matchbook cover.  Or, "convey" could mean communicate, in terms of a message.  I've got the 302 in front of me, and it is hard to figure out if the matchbooks were used to transport, or used to write on.  Regardless, for anyone interested in what Flyjack has to say, go to the DZ, create a username, mute Robert Blevins, then you'll only see relevant posts like Flyjack's one on the matchbooks.

This is what the 302 says.

"The hijacker very carefully demanded that each and every note either written by him or dictated to the stewardess by him be returned to him and he also had a used match cover which was used to convey notes to be returned to him."

Note: it says match cover, not matchbook cover.

You interpret this as the matchbook was used to transport, I interpret this as the matchbook was written on.  I've seen matchbooks written on in the inside.  So why could Cooper not have done that?  Notes could mean a series of individual separate notes on different types of papers, or it could mean notes on a page.  I could have one piece of paper with a few different notes on it.  Or a matchbook with multiple notes on it.  I don't need more than one matchbook to have notes on a matchbook.

We see this differently.

My posts are to let you guys know that Flyjack and EU have talked about this, even though some might not have remembered it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 11:40:26 PM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5916 on: January 04, 2021, 01:33:19 AM »
Ok, a couple things. the notes were asked for By Cooper to Tina to be communicated to the cockpit to bring back the notes and envelope. nothing about matchbook covers or any covers. the matchbook involvement was between Tina and Cooper and nobody else. you kind of mix the two as one demand.

I spoke with Eric for a while on the phone. he doesn't believe the quote at all either surrounding a matchbook cover being used for any type of notes. the note written by Cooper was the original note given to Flo in an envelope. she wrote the demands on a note pad and the envelope according to several main witnesses to the event. things can get twisted and out of context even with investigations which are found in the 302's often.  I'm not sure anything can be taken as fact from one agents comment.

Anything is possible but not a lot of support in one 302 that tends to skew from the original statements. Cooper made his demands very clear and doubt they came from a small notation. that's my input..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5917 on: January 04, 2021, 02:22:09 AM »
Unlike cold case files are read by new investigators. sometimes the original investigators are retired but still alive and they have the ability to question things they read for verification. we don't have that ability. assumptions are made that can be true or false. they also have the ability to question witnesses. we have trouble with that as well. road blocks are at every corner in this case. getting to the bottom of the whole thing is going to be tough. looking back the FBI actually had a timeline for evidence and destroyed a critical part of the case. things like the notes and how the matchbooks came into play will never resolve the case. the money find and path are critical parts along with DNA.

Imagine if the guy who pulled the evidence to be destroyed decided not to and kept it?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 02:24:16 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5918 on: January 04, 2021, 11:40:57 AM »
Also, keep in mind Northwest had there own matches to give out so I fail to see the reason they would give someone else's matches out to passengers. they had matches, dishes, wings, playing cards etc.

Tina's second interview she claims Cooper had another book of matches  describing them as sky chef matches...it's all trivial  in my opinion. daily smokers always had matches. one book isn't enough. some don't strike and wind blows them out.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 11:42:32 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5919 on: January 04, 2021, 12:09:28 PM »
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Also, keep in mind Northwest had there own matches to give out so I fail to see the reason they would give someone else's matches out to passengers. they had matches, dishes, wings, playing cards etc.

Tina's second interview she claims Cooper had another book of matches  describing them as sky chef matches...it's all trivial  in my opinion. daily smokers always had matches. one book isn't enough. some don't strike and wind blows them out.

My latest research points to DBC coming from the East Coast, likely Connecticut. This would have necessitated him traveling to Seattle from JFK. And DBC's plan starting with an early flight from SEA to PDX.

A transcontinental flight such as JFK to SEA is a reasonable place Cooper could have obtained the Sky Chef matches because they actually served meals on these flights prepared by Sky Chef--unlike 305 from PDX to SEA.

Other than that, the only real viable option is that DBC obtained the Sky Chef matches from one of the 16 airport Sky Chef restaurant locations across the US--JFK included. Regardless, this appears to support my theory that Cooper flew in from somewhere.

Also, as I've noted, I feel quite strongly that DBC's original plan called for him to jump near Seattle and literally depart on the one red-eye flight out of Seattle on November 24th--before 305 landed in Reno and the authorities even knew DBC was gone--not coincidentally traveling to...JFK.
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5920 on: January 04, 2021, 12:35:51 PM »
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Unlike cold case files are read by new investigators. sometimes the original investigators are retired but still alive and they have the ability to question things they read for verification. we don't have that ability. assumptions are made that can be true or false. they also have the ability to question witnesses. we have trouble with that as well. road blocks are at every corner in this case. getting to the bottom of the whole thing is going to be tough. looking back the FBI actually had a timeline for evidence and destroyed a critical part of the case. things like the notes and how the matchbooks came into play will never resolve the case. the money find and path are critical parts along with DNA.

Imagine if the guy who pulled the evidence to be destroyed decided not to and kept it?

Maybe someday Tina will actually speak to someone who knows about the case and who can ask her detailed questions like this rather than a production company like HBO or the Rackstraw group who want to show her a photo spread.

I'd like to ask her what her and Cooper talked about from around 3PM to 7:30PM.  What we have is a few lines, like the list of demands, how nice Minnesota is, how he has a grudge, going to get the money, etc.  I can't imagine sitting with someone for a few hours and only saying a few words.  That takes a lot of patience on his part and Tina's.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5921 on: January 04, 2021, 12:43:58 PM »
You can rest assure they spoke about a lot of things. how much of it she remembers is hard to say. I was reading an old email from Mark Bennett about Mitchell. back in 2016 he made comments of no longer being able to ID Cooper. several have made claims of memory issues. too many years have gone by. only people with suspects seem to have a clear and vivid recall.

The clock is ticking on several main witnesses with trying to get the right questions answered.
 
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Offline grapesofwrath

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5922 on: January 04, 2021, 03:31:37 PM »
Has this been discussed previously in the Cooper world? Martin Sheen played a "Dan Cooper" in a TV show a few months before the hijacking. Cooper in the program is supposedly a suspect in an unsolved mystery.

I've discussed this with a few people already, and they have not heard of this. I'm just curious if this was investigated already.

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5923 on: January 04, 2021, 05:19:18 PM »
Ah, so maybe the skyjacker was a fan of the TV show, "Sarge?"

To me, that makes as much sense as a comic book written in French twenty years before the hijacking.

Good find, Grapes.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #5924 on: January 04, 2021, 06:01:35 PM »
I remember a movie being discussed years ago on the DZ. it was around the same time. I don't recall Martin Sheen being in it though..might not be the same movie. not sure..might of been discussed about where Cooper got his name..
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 06:03:07 PM by Shutter »