Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1411434 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4710 on: March 07, 2019, 01:35:22 PM »
EU ignores one glaring fact! The Ingram "bundles" and I do stress the term "bundles" was found in the "upper active layer". Nobody disputes that! That layer cannot be more than a year or two old.  Nobody disputes that! The upper active layer is on top of a thicker-deeper "cross bedded layer" of sand. Nobody disputes that! These layers represent geological-hydrological time. Given the layer the money was found in, if it was a burial, it cannot have been buried more than months or a year or two at most prior to discovery. THOSE ARE THE FACTS EU is choosing to ignore. His theory cannot happen unless those basic facts are ignored.

EU is not doing science. EU is doing "selling/marketing" based on the needs of his suspect story. The science of this matter and EU's story are incompatible. EU's socalled math or what he is calling 'math', is no math at all!

EU's account and his story (and his bad math) are nothing more than a distraction and an impediment to understanding the actual Cooper money story.

One thing EU's account ignores is what many experts think may have happened in the Cooper money story. These people are not involved in EU's and Smith's current media frenzy which is dominating the airwaves! Smith and EU may be grabbing all of the media attention, but quieter more considerate people are working this problem quietly. Some of these experts who have worked on and with the Columbia for decades have rather strong opinions about what could have (or could not have) happened in the Cooper money story. So far EU and Smith continue to ignore these people because they conflict with the Smith-EU "Agenda" ! :-X



 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 04:17:45 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4711 on: March 07, 2019, 03:50:41 PM »
I'm ignoring "experts?" Who? What information are they sharing? I'd love to hear it.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4712 on: March 07, 2019, 04:14:11 PM »
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I'm ignoring "experts?" Who? What information are they sharing? I'd love to hear it.

You cant teach and old 'investigative' reporter/cow mutilator new tricks! But you are a celeb.   :bravo:
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 04:14:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4713 on: March 07, 2019, 06:27:40 PM »
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All,
Great news, McCrone has agreed to analyze the tie particles for radioactivity. They have a gamma spectrometer but it is usually used for much bigger samples. They will try no matter what. Place your bets now!!

Tom Kaye

Tom-You may have done this already, but if not, does McCrone have a database of other items they've worked with/tested to see if the particles on the tie have shown up in other geographies or manufacturing environments?  Kind of like the impatien spores?  We all speculate on where the tie came from, but is there another group of ties or clothing that could be used as a benchmark?  The tie you showed at the conference looked very clean compared to Cooper's tie.  How would one get other items tested?  Hopefully McCrone has a database.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4714 on: March 07, 2019, 06:50:20 PM »
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Is it possible that a dredge could have deposited the stacked bundles with intact bands (as found by Brian Ingram)? I think not, but Bruce reminded me that "strange things do happen sometimes." He wasn't talking about supernatural miracles, just rare events where unexpected orderly results emerge from chaotic events.

I have a lot of experience with all kinds of pumps from my time in commercial fishing, but zero dredge experience. So called "trash pumps" can move large debris through the centrifugal impeller stage without clogging or chopping up the objects.

I have seen dredge effluent being deposited on shore and occasionally have seen large rocks and pieces of waterlogged wood come out unscathed.

Just wondering.

This has a good discussion of Army Corp of Engineers and other dredges and techniques. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Scan all the way through. Many informative photos and illustrations scattered throughout.

377

I believe the dredge is plausible. many think the pump has propellers or blades. it's a impeller. they have changed over the years but they are not meant to chop or cut things up. the impeller pumps the water. some operators can identify things by sound. all sorts of things get sucked up. all depends on how many guards they have to stop objects from going through. reports of chains, tanks, rocks etc. get through. it comes down to how much the impeller would damage the bag and money while passing through. a test needs to be done to put it to rest.

The dredge theory is virtually impossible. In order for the dredge theory to be correct the following series of remarkable events have to occur:

1) Three separate packets have to be dredged from the river bottom, then spread via bulldozer, then migrate another 300 feet minimum, then quickly self-bury all the while...

2) Three individual rubber bands (not simply one but all three) through some remarkable anomaly, remain intact and elastic after each being exposed to the elements (underwater and otherwise) for nearly three years (until 1974 dredge)...

3) These three wonder packets remain with each other through the entire process (dredge, spread and self-bury).

The fact that this is even discussed as an option at this point is the epitome of grasping for straws.

Let's face it, the facts speak for themselves. The only way for these three packets to end up where they ended up was through human intervention..unless we want to embrace a mathematical likelihood bordering on trillions-to-one.

My responses below EU's statements

The dredge theory is virtually impossible. In order for the dredge theory to be correct the following series of remarkable events have to occur:

---How are these events remarkable?

1) Three separate packets have to be dredged from the river bottom, then spread via bulldozer, then migrate another 300 feet minimum, then quickly self-bury all the while...

----If $6000 was 3 packets, then $200,000 was 100 packets.  If Cooper lost all the money somehow, or had it and had to get rid of it quickly, then 3 packets out of 100 showing up somewhere together is not too far fetched.  Those are pretty good odds from my perspective. 

2) Three individual rubber bands (not simply one but all three) through some remarkable anomaly, remain intact and elastic after each being exposed to the elements (underwater and otherwise) for nearly three years (until 1974 dredge)...

-----Do we really need to start this conversation again over bands/straps/packets/bundles/etc.?  There are so many discrepancies regarding the exact details of the money find.  The fact is that money was found, what happened next is questionable.

3) These three wonder packets remain with each other through the entire process (dredge, spread and self-bury).

----Again, there are possibilities on this one that have been discussed by many others.

The fact that this is even discussed as an option at this point is the epitome of grasping for straws.

----Condescending, as usual, to a group of fairly intelligent and educated people that are regulars on this forum.

Let's face it, the facts speak for themselves. The only way for these three packets to end up where they ended up was through human intervention..unless we want to embrace a mathematical likelihood bordering on trillions-to-one.

---How did you calculate this probability?  Bayes' Theorem? A trillion-to-one odds you say? Even Power Ball is only 300 million-to-one.  There are plenty of ways the money could have ended up there.  Dredge is just one.  He could have landed there like some people say, maybe he walked there and dumped the money, maybe he dumped the money further upstream when he thought someone was closing in, maybe it fell out on the aft stairs and didn't drop from the plane until later, maybe he put the money in his shirt like haggarknew said the other day.  Maybe it was buried like you said.  There are many possibilities. 

How can you say that any other theory than yours is "grasping at straws"?  It looks to me like you're trying to force Sheridan Peterson as a suspect using the money find as evidence. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4715 on: March 07, 2019, 07:16:15 PM »
You really can't "face facts" when you really don't have them.

Does everyone know for sure the bundles were loose. were you there?
Was the bundles fused together from being in the bag and water? I trust you have facts going against this?
Did the Fazio's dump and spread the sand on the beach. they claim they only spread sand 50 yards. case solved?
Was the money in the bag or out of the bag prior to landing on the beach. any facts to back this up?
Any proof Cooper was on the beach, any?
The tractor could of "migrated" the bills.
The bills were clearly fused together. PCGS found bills stuck together the FBI missed. Brian spoke of the bills looking petrified.

I believe it's possible the dredge has something to do with this but I don't have enough evidence. others like to create or downplay things to make it appear to be the answer.

same for the tie..radio active elements are already known and yet it was from welding?

I see evidence that doesn't support a plant.
I see some evidence the dredge could have done it.
I see evidence that natural causes are at play.

I like to go by what is already there. I don't have a suspect that needs things to fall in place in order to work. what works are facts.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4716 on: March 07, 2019, 07:30:41 PM »
could you explain to us Condescending, as usual, to a group of fairly intelligent people how fragments were found at different levels if it was a plant. some who believed it was possible the money was planted until new evidence surfaced changed there minds. 377, for one.

I don't see any valid reason to bury a small amount of money. it can't be to throw the FBI off. they were never on him.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 07:34:35 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4717 on: March 07, 2019, 09:55:28 PM »
I heard that there is a bet in the works.

Hence, I bet that no radioactivity will be found on the tie. But, boy, it would be cool if there was.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4718 on: March 07, 2019, 11:34:06 PM »
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I heard that there is a bet in the works.

Hence, I bet that no radioactivity will be found on the tie. But, boy, it would be cool if there was.

Barium Chloride -radioactive influences phosphors


Been on his site for years...
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4719 on: March 07, 2019, 11:57:42 PM »
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could you explain to us Condescending, as usual, to a group of fairly intelligent people how fragments were found at different levels if it was a plant. some who believed it was possible the money was planted until new evidence surfaced changed there minds. 377, for one.

I don't see any valid reason to bury a small amount of money. it can't be to throw the FBI off. they were never on him.

I sometimes sit back and ponder how Palmer would reply to all the questions and claims being raised today. Being an academician he had to know questions would be raised. He basically ignored them all and went on to his next project - St Helens. Tom and I have both talked to people who worked with Palmer. He stood by his work at Tina Bar and never did any follow-up work or reports. He argued with agents about the date the money arrived based on his readings of strata and he cited his long experience 'at reading strata' in his defense.

Palmer felt quite certain that he had dated the upper two layers correctly (upper active and cross bedded layer). He cited artifacts in those layers consisting of new unrusted nails and other metal objects, new recent issue pop cans, recently arrived tree parts etc (upper active layer)  VS.  rusted metals, older issue pop cans, oxidized aluminum parts, and decayed vegetation in the (lower thicker cross-bedded layer). Photography of these layers and their contents was done by the FBI and others - most of those photos are in the NORJAK file.

Palmer and the FBI evidently felt no lab work was required beyond Palmer's expertise. No core samples or sand samples were kept because no lab work was planned. Little exists from that excavation that could be tested today. In spite of this the academic Palmer quips to a reporter on the video that he is sure 'wackos will be running to the Washougal to look for money' and he and the reporter (both professionals) laugh the laugh of the knowing! So he was aware he was working on a problematic issue prone to error and theory mongering. But he did nothing to forestall or address that in advance, when he could have. Palmer rested his whole case on his expertise and experience. His strata chart is the only testable outcome.   

According to EU's claim the Ingram money was found in a layer of strata which dates back to 1971!  New pop cans, unrusted nails, and fresh bio-matter from 1979-80 and all. EU's claim is a miracle if you include what Dr. Palmer found and documented photographically. EU's claim includes both the old from 1971 and the new from 79-80! :-\

     
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 03:41:18 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4720 on: March 08, 2019, 12:12:02 AM »
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I heard that there is a bet in the works.

Hence, I bet that no radioactivity will be found on the tie. But, boy, it would be cool if there was.

Barium Chloride -radioactive influences phosphors


Been on his site for years...

Oops.

Maybe I should double-down and say: Other than the Barium Chloride, there are no other radioactive particles on the tie. I raise my bet to $2!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 12:15:15 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4721 on: March 09, 2019, 04:44:30 PM »
Bruce, have you recognized the media frenzy around us and how we're grabbing all the media attention...this according to Georger?

In addition, apparently we also have our "unrequited love" for our special someones in the Cooper Vortex...you=Tina...me=shall remain unnamed.

Cheers all!
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4722 on: March 09, 2019, 11:13:07 PM »
I hope that Shutter opens up a new thread for Unrequited Love and Love Triangles in the Cooper Vortex.

There is just SO MUCH that has to be discussed about SO MANY...

...just saying.

BTW: I have to go digging for the name of the show I saw in Portland a couple of years ago where Ron Forman had an affair with Barb Dayton, which sent Pat off on a booze bender... I laughed my ass off. It'd be a great addition to the Cooper Extravaganza.

Ah, yes. The title was: "db," by Tommy Smith. The show was produced at the CoHo Theater in Portland. Great little place. The cast did a great job. I wrote a review of the show - it's at the MN.

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« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 11:18:22 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4723 on: March 09, 2019, 11:34:57 PM »
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Bruce, have you recognized the media frenzy around us and how we're grabbing all the media attention...this according to Georger?

In addition, apparently we also have our "unrequited love" for our special someones in the Cooper Vortex...you=Tina...me=shall remain unnamed.

Cheers all!

Actually, you are the only two seeking/making media attention. But there is no "news" in that - just more of the same old. Whatever fluffs your feathers. Tosaw was also a publicity hound. 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 11:36:21 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4724 on: March 10, 2019, 03:28:39 AM »
Just call me an "adorable" publicity hound, I suppose, G.

BTW: what's the pix?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 03:29:05 AM by Bruce A. Smith »