Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1410183 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2250 on: October 29, 2017, 01:32:25 AM »
Find a less-squeaky chair. ;)
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2251 on: October 29, 2017, 03:35:49 AM »
It's cinema verite, no?
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2252 on: October 29, 2017, 01:27:36 PM »
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It's cinema verite, no?

Got any vids from your former musician/entertainer/standup career days, before becoming a reporter and a book writer? Its another Hollywood story. Does Cook play guitar and do stand up too?

In fact, didn't you say in one of your videos on the Internet that you never did believe Barb Daton was DB Cooper but "just a damned good story"! If that's true why all the time devoted to that over the years - just good standup entertainment for us masses? I hate to say it but this is beginning to sound a lot like Lyle Christiansen and Blevins' version of Coopertainment?

The facts and the entertainment seem to be all mixed together at this point - where does one end and the other begin, or were they always one and the same for some people? I guess its whatever keeps people happy and entertained. Impossible to know where the one ends and the other begins. Maybe its because of the complexity of the problem, in the hands of entertainers?

 :chr2:

Bring in the ___________________ ?  It could be the whole reason Cooper did the hijacking then got away clean. It could be the reason for Cooper money at Tina Bar and how the money got there! Not to mention the reason for its discovery by an eight year old boy! Is this the essential core of the Cooper hijacking? A stunt? That's exactly what a lot of people thought when it was announced to the world clear back in 1971. Have we gone full circle?

Smith & Cook - are you guys DB Cooper!?

 :))
 



   
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 04:04:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2253 on: October 29, 2017, 04:25:07 PM »
I'm not sure what you are complaining about, Georger, but do you have any disputes with the parachute/Cossey facts that I presented in the video? Let's start there, and then we can discuss my performance career, past, present and future.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2254 on: October 29, 2017, 04:30:03 PM »
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I'm not sure what you are complaining about, Georger, but do you have any disputes with the parachute/Cossey facts that I presented in the video? Let's start there, and then we can discuss my performance career, past, present and future.

Why do you take it as a complaint? Are you used to complaints - in the Entertainment Industry given your long career in that industry? It's just an observation which may have real merit, as we examine the Maldum Fornax of the Cooper Industry! Something the crew on board 305 wanted to avoid, frankly. Until the hijacking the crew had private lives.  Then comes the FBI, the news media, and then the Entertainment Industry fresh from its latest gig at the Lemon Lounge in Vegas and the Starlite Room in Brooklyn!.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 04:51:45 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2255 on: October 29, 2017, 04:47:09 PM »
What has always impressed me, as a small town boy, is the SCALE of the Cooper hijacking. The very scale over which the hijacking played out was vast - this alone caused a lot of people to predict Cooper would never be found ... almost as if Cooper had bailed out over the vastness of the Amazon region, never to be seen again, dead or alive. And it would take generations to ever find out what happened to him. It would take years until someone visited the Ariel Tribe and perhaps the Arielonians would have some word about a white guy that had appeared in their midst one foggy night with a large bag of money, who perhaps had lived with the Arielonians as their god for a number of years, then vanished one day while fishing, perhaps taken by the snake God, K'Nuk'itonis?

Now consider the vastness of the money find site - in the photos stitched together below. Because the Columbia River is almost a flowing inland sea, like the Amazon. It covers an equally vast territory. Including the Washougal basin only further adds to that vastness. Again, what is important here is the SCALE of it all. That is what impressed this small town boy the first time I saw these photos, below. Out of this vastness appears three mere bundles of money presumably lost clear up near Ariel Washington! How in blazes does it work its way through the cosmos to wind up at this specific spot on the Columbia Inland Flowing Sea! ? The mere probability of it has to be something like winning the lottery. Then to be found by two children, an eight year old boy and his four year old playmate.

How strange can it get! ?  From the scale of it all the 727 from which Cooper bailed would be appear as a grain of sand on a beach! And the three bundles of money found as a mere molecule on that beach! I think I will turn on a football games and contemplate it all.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 05:04:46 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2256 on: October 30, 2017, 02:34:19 AM »
I liked your post Georger. It resonated with thoughts I've had.

Into the Blast?

I prefer Into the Vast.

377

 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2257 on: November 01, 2017, 06:13:51 PM »
Bruce's video:

A couple of points that need clarifying (see below), but I enjoyed it a lot.

NB 6 and NB 8 are two kinds of Navy parachute harness-container assemblies. There is no such thing as an NB anything canopy, the NB means Navy back and refers to only an integrated back type harness and container. The NB 8 had a larger pack volume than the NB 6.

Neither the NB 6 or NB 8, as manufactured, had D rings on the front that could be used to connect a chest reserve chute

NORMALLY (in USN service) an NB 6 had a 26 foot conical canopy inside. Many, but not all, USN 26 ft Conicals were made by Steinthal.

NORMALLY (in USN service) an NB 8 had a 28 ft round C-9 canopy inside. Many mfrs made C-9 canopies including Pioneer, Irvin, etc.

Both C-9s and USN 26 foot Conicals were incredibly strong and could easily withstand high speed deployments that would shred civilian sport and emergency canopies that were rated for 150 mph maximum speed. Anything I said about a C-9's strength and durability wold apply equally to a Navy Conical. I have jumped both.

The Boeing 727 air drop tests were not made public, but I can't say that they were actually classified SECRET.

377



 
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georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2258 on: November 01, 2017, 11:41:22 PM »
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Bruce's video:

A couple of points that need clarifying (see below), but I enjoyed it a lot.

NB 6 and NB 8 are two kinds of Navy parachute harness-container assemblies. There is no such thing as an NB anything canopy, the NB means Navy back and refers to only an integrated back type harness and container. The NB 8 had a larger pack volume than the NB 6.

Neither the NB 6 or NB 8, as manufactured, had D rings on the front that could be used to connect a chest reserve chute

NORMALLY (in USN service) an NB 6 had a 26 foot conical canopy inside. Many, but not all, USN 26 ft Conicals were made by Steinthal.

NORMALLY (in USN service) an NB 8 had a 28 ft round C-9 canopy inside. Many mfrs made C-9 canopies including Pioneer, Irvin, etc.

Both C-9s and USN 26 foot Conicals were incredibly strong and could easily withstand high speed deployments that would shred civilian sport and emergency canopies that were rated for 150 mph maximum speed. Anything I said about a C-9's strength and durability wold apply equally to a Navy Conical. I have jumped both.

The Boeing 727 air drop tests were not made public, but I can't say that they were actually classified SECRET.

377

We know Cossey packed "all" chutes given to Cooper?

Any opinion about whether Hayden's chutes had 28ft C9 canopies or not - why wouldnt Hayden just show Bruce the canopy to confirm its type?

Did Cooper jump with a C9 28ft or a 26ft?

 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 11:41:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2259 on: November 02, 2017, 02:21:33 AM »
In terms of definitive knowledge, we know that Cossey packed Hayden's "Not-Used" Pioneer with a 26-foot Steinthaul.

Since Hayden says both chutes were identical, it is a fair assumption to say that Cossey packed the one that Cooper used as well.

Further, since Cossey was the rigger at Issaquah Sky Sports, it is a fair assumption that he packed the reserves, too.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2260 on: November 02, 2017, 02:28:13 AM »
If the rig was an NB 8 I'd bet that the canopy was a 28 ft C 9. But that's a guess. Between Cossey's tricks and lies and Norman's refusal to give full info to Bruce it's hard to know for sure. Both canopies are super strong. Waaaay stronger than comparably sized civilian canopies.

I owe my life to a surplus USN 26 ft Conical that I had as my reserve canopy in 1972. My USAF C 9 main malfunctioned and I had to go to plan B. A friend who had served in the Navy said: "typical... the Air Force screws up and the Navy saves the day."

377
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 02:32:11 AM by 377 »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2261 on: November 02, 2017, 01:46:12 PM »
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If the rig was an NB 8 I'd bet that the canopy was a 28 ft C 9. But that's a guess. Between Cossey's tricks and lies and Norman's refusal to give full info to Bruce it's hard to know for sure. Both canopies are super strong. Waaaay stronger than comparably sized civilian canopies.

I owe my life to a surplus USN 26 ft Conical that I had as my reserve canopy in 1972. My USAF C 9 main malfunctioned and I had to go to plan B. A friend who had served in the Navy said: "typical... the Air Force screws up and the Navy saves the day."

377

It seems to me a lot is being placed on Hayden's statement: the chutes were identical. How did he know? Bruce never asked. Had Hayden talked to Cossey (who made/packed the chutes) and that's how he knew his chutes were identical? Had Hayden opened the chutes and examined them, looked at the packing cards, something else? Did Cossey ever say Hayden's chutes were identical? Then Hayden turns around and wont open and show Bruce the canopy in his remaining chute! Maybe what all of this boils down to is Hayden himself doesn't really know what kind of canopy he has inside his container, packed by Cossey? How much does Hayden even know about chutes, or his chutes in particular? Would he know a C9 26ft from a 28ft if he saw one? Would it be listed on the packing card - assuming there is a packing card inside his remaining chute ?

What's the big deal with finding out? Why would Hayden pull back and not want to pursue this? (in front of Bruce). Did Hayden look at the chute later after Bruce was gone?

What makes this all the more problematic is Jayden did pull a piece of the canopy out to show Bruce who then took a photograph of the canopy - its white!

Would Gray have gotten a different response from Hayden?

Did Bruce push Hayden too hard and that made Hayden back off?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 01:59:27 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2262 on: November 02, 2017, 02:48:00 PM »
If it's all white it is very likely a 26' USN conical. Most were all white. As far as I know there were no all white C 9s. The all white 28 ft round military canopies were called C 8s and were very rare. I have only seen one. I've seen hundreds of C 9s.

Due to high demand as skydiving reserves and the fact that far fewer Conicals showed up in surplus compared to C 9s, the Navy Conicals were much more expensive than C 9s. Often 5x. Makes it more likely that Norman would have bought C 9 canopies. They were far more common, much less expensive and 100% suitable for his needs.

Can't tell from the small amount of extracted canopy fabric in Norman's rig whether the entire canopy is white. Many C 9s had some white panels and also other colors such as green, tan and orange.

377

So, if Hayden is right and his other chute was identical go this one, then that is the type of chute Cooper chose and used.  :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 04:21:49 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2263 on: November 02, 2017, 04:22:21 PM »
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If it's all white it is very likely a 26' USN conical. Most were all white. As far as I know there were no all white C 9s. The all white 28 ft round military canopies were called C 8s and were very rare. I have only seen one. I've seen hundreds of C 9s.

Due to high demand as skydiving reserves and the fact that far fewer Conicals showed up in surplus compared to C 9s, the Navy Conicals were much more expensive than C 9s. Often 5x. Makes it more likely that Norman would have bought C 9 canopies. They were far more common, much less expensive and 100% suitable for his needs.

Can't tell from the small amount of extracted canopy fabric in Norman's rig whether the entire canopy is white. Many C 9s had some white panels and also other colors such as green, tan and orange.

377


So, if Hayden is right and his other chute was identical to this one, then that is the type of chute Cooper chose and used.  :)

No further need for parachute psychoanalysis, or is there?  :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 04:25:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #2264 on: November 02, 2017, 04:29:46 PM »
My friend who is an FAA Master Rigger says a C 9 pack volume is considerably higher then a 26 Conical. If we have a photo of the whole rig he might be able to make an educated guess. He said the fabric shown could be from either. They both used the same ripstop fabric spec.

Georger, as you might have guessed, it's never over about parachutes. Or radios...  ;)

377