Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.2%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.2%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.1%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (21.5%)
100 Cooper lived
25 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 3184722 times)

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1965 on: May 22, 2017, 01:36:29 AM »
Robert,
Anyone familiar with the area would find an altimeter very useful. Why do I say this ? Well you don't have to actually be a local to know that interstate 5 and the railroad track that basically parallels it for much of the way is rather a low elevation. There are no high elevation passes on this stretch of highway. As I mentioned I never went high country hunting without both. Does anyone really think Cooper chose to jump at night because he was an idiot ?
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1966 on: May 22, 2017, 01:36:56 AM »
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Thanks Bruce but you pretty much verify what I'm saying! Cooper had many many hours to escape with nobody looking for him. I'm pretty sure they called out the guard for a ground search but that didn't start for days as I recall. Also a lot of experts now think the FBI LZ was incorrect and that he bailed out a lot further south. I'm kinda in that group but who knows.... They didn't find anything in that area in 45 years except the placard from 305.

To emphasize a couple of things we talked about over dinner in Centralia.....you are saying Cooper not only had time to just walk out, but he had time to walk a long, long ways...if he was in any kind of good physical shape at age 45.  He could have walked to Vancouver -- that night, no problem.  If you could accomplish your running goals at age 60+, Cooper, at age 45, could certainly have walked the tracks for 20-25 miles -- all night 11/24/71 and be in Vancouver by daybreak.  And he could have done it virtually undetected....if he stayed on the railroad tracks and laid low -- as needed.  Moreover, he may have been lucky enough to find a stationary or slow-moving train and hitch a ride.  That would keep him hidden, thereby greatly increasing his chances of going unnoticed into the Vancouver/Portland area.   He jumps off, finds his car, and takes off... for 46 years.

That raises the other issue of whether or not Cooper was from the Portland area -- as opposed to Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia as some have hypothesized.  He started in Portland, it seems reasonable he was from there and wanted to get back there, but that's a another can of worms....

The other point that intrigued me was our discussion about Cooper not really needing to see the ground to know where he was.  If he knew the area and V23, his altimeter would have told him all he needed to know about where he was -- in the dead of night, with complete cloud cover.  The lights of Vancouver/Portland would have been bright enough for him to nail down his location pretty well. 

And you are saying the jump was totally survivable -- and after listening to skydivers talk about it over the years, I am inclined to agree.

Meyer
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1967 on: May 22, 2017, 01:45:40 AM »
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Robert,
Anyone familiar with the area would find an altimeter very useful. Why do I say this ? Well you don't have to actually be a local to know that interstate 5 and the railroad track that basically parallels it for much of the way is rather a low elevation. There are no high elevation passes on this stretch of highway. As I mentioned I never went high country hunting without both. Does anyone really think Cooper chose to jump at night because he was an idiot ?

The answer to your last question is "maybe". ;D

Cooper asked that the money and parachutes be ready by 5:00 PM.  Sunset that day was 4:45 PM and with the overcast and other clouds there would not be a twilight period.  So Cooper was committed to jumping at night from the outset.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1968 on: May 22, 2017, 01:49:24 AM »
Meyer,
There are a lot of other things that we will touch on next time we meet. Law informance were swarming SeaTac, Portland Airport and yes even Reno airport. So I'm going to come up with this rather complex plan to highjack an airline out of Portland airport and have my getaway car at the Portland airport ? Yes that will,work ..... Not !
There were 100's of places to park his escape vehicle PRIOR to highjacking. NOBODY was looking for him then !
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1969 on: May 22, 2017, 01:51:00 AM »
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Thanks Bruce but you pretty much verify what I'm saying! Cooper had many many hours to escape with nobody looking for him. I'm pretty sure they called out the guard for a ground search but that didn't start for days as I recall. Also a lot of experts now think the FBI LZ was incorrect and that he bailed out a lot further south. I'm kinda in that group but who knows.... They didn't find anything in that area in 45 years except the placard from 305.

To emphasize a couple of things we talked about over dinner in Centralia.....you are saying Cooper not only had time to just walk out, but he had time to walk a long, long ways...if he was in any kind of good physical shape at age 45.  He could have walked to Vancouver -- that night, no problem.  If you could accomplish your running goals at age 60+, Cooper, at age 45, could certainly have walked the tracks for 20-25 miles -- all night 11/24/71 and be in Vancouver by daybreak.  And he could have done it virtually undetected....if he stayed on the railroad tracks and laid low -- as needed.  Moreover, he may have been lucky enough to find a stationary or slow-moving train and hitch a ride.  That would keep him hidden, thereby greatly increasing his chances of going unnoticed into the Vancouver/Portland area.   He jumps off, finds his car, and takes off... for 46 years.

That raises the other issue of whether or not Cooper was from the Portland area -- as opposed to Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia as some have hypothesized.  He started in Portland, it seems reasonable he was from there and wanted to get back there, but that's a another can of worms....

The other point that intrigued me was our discussion about Cooper not really needing to see the ground to know where he was.  If he knew the area and V23, his altimeter would have told him all he needed to know about where he was -- in the dead of night, with complete cloud cover.  The lights of Vancouver/Portland would have been bright enough for him to nail down his location pretty well. 

And you are saying the jump was totally survivable -- and after listening to skydivers talk about it over the years, I am inclined to agree.

Meyer

Pocket altimeters do not normally have a means to set them to sea level pressure so they are not very useful to determining altitude above sea level.  They only measure "pressure altitude".

I agree that the jump was survivable.  But I am also inclined to believe that Cooper did not survive the jump for reasons unknown at this time.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1970 on: May 22, 2017, 02:11:12 AM »
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Robert,
Anyone familiar with the area would find an altimeter very useful. Why do I say this ? Well you don't have to actually be a local to know that interstate 5 and the railroad track that basically parallels it for much of the way is rather a low elevation. There are no high elevation passes on this stretch of highway. As I mentioned I never went high country hunting without both. Does anyone really think Cooper chose to jump at night because he was an idiot ?

That's my point ! He knew it would be dark and that's why he took a late flight. If he wanted to bail out in brood daylight, he would have taken an earlier flight. Of course a daylight flight would have made it far easier to track and see when he jumped. Then we would never had a DBCooper mystery ! I think he took a late flight because he was smart and not an idiot. Of course THE FBI wants us all to believe Coop was a idiot as this was not their finest day.

The answer to your last question is "maybe". ;D

Cooper asked that the money and parachutes be ready by 5:00 PM.  Sunset that day was 4:45 PM and with the overcast and other clouds there would not be a twilight period.  So Cooper was committed to jumping at night from the outset.
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1971 on: May 22, 2017, 02:15:26 AM »
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I was in Portland yesterday and Columbia was still very high. I would say it had dropped a foot or 2 so at least it's  heading in the right direction. Poll results are interesting as to whether Cooper lived or died. There are good arguments on both side. JMHO

Results are interesting.  There are 12 responses and mine was the only one in the 75% survived category.

That was a little surprising...I wanted to go more likely alive than dead, but not 100%, so 75% was my only choice for that.  And, the lack of finding a parachute, brief case or body to go along with it seeming like Cooper would be the kind of person who would be missed,  I thought I chose the most logical category.

But, since I was the only one who thought that -- it shows the value of different perspectives.


Mark:

75% .... I would think that either he is 100% alive or 0% alive -- either he made it or he didn't.  Do you mean you think there's a 75% chance that he survived the jump?  That's a proper statement in terms of probability.  I sent you a PM several weeks ago.....never heard back from you.  Will never do it again.

Meyer

Meyer,
Yes, that's what I meant.....75% chance of survival.

Are you referring to the PM about Tina Bar?  I show you sent me the PM on March 25 and I responded a couple of days later.  My inbox only confirms that I responded, but not what day.  Check your inbox between March 26 and March 29.


Mark, my apologies -- you are correct, you did respond to my PM.  I was wrong, sorry about that.  I am getting pages of PM's now,  I'm starting to miss some of them.  I guess I need to have a better way to manage them.  Not only that, your reply was very cordial.  Sorry for being so abrupt.  Meyer
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1972 on: May 22, 2017, 02:33:38 AM »
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Thanks Bruce but you pretty much verify what I'm saying! Cooper had many many hours to escape with nobody looking for him. I'm pretty sure they called out the guard for a ground search but that didn't start for days as I recall. Also a lot of experts now think the FBI LZ was incorrect and that he bailed out a lot further south. I'm kinda in that group but who knows.... They didn't find anything in that area in 45 years except the placard from 305.

I don't know of any National Guard troopers, but the US Army came down in March and April of 1972. A couple hundred soldiers were involved, and were supervised by a dozen or two FBI agents. I spoke with one agent, George Groetz. who was part of the operation, and as I recall the conversation he chuckled when he said that he never got his shoes muddy.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1973 on: May 22, 2017, 09:05:40 AM »
I think this can somewhat relate to the latest poll about Cooper's survival. we know Cooper jumped, and if they are close in proximity of his jump and the path is correct, then Cooper obviously got away. what makes things difficult is the jump time, and location. if it's wrong it puts more mystery into it, and probability for life and death.

I'll have to check but the hijacking where the guy lost his pants is interesting with the things that left the plane. the map showing where he jumped and where things ended up are strange. they were all over the place. his plane was going much faster, but not sure of the altitude of the jump.

McNally, was his name...
McNally's hands were the only things keeping him connected to the plane. His body, suspended from the stairwell at 300 miles per hour, felt like a daisy caught in a hurricane.

In the cockpit, the remaining crew felt their ears pop as the cabin pressure fluctuated.

One thousand feet above the Boeing 727, from the vantage point of a military surveillance plane, an FBI agent observed a small, dark object falling rapidly from the rear hatch.

McNally dropped like a bullet, feet-first, and the first thing he perceived was the wind punching his flight goggles into his eye sockets. In seconds, the goggles were violently ripped from his head. McNally threw out his arms, bringing his body parallel to the ground as he began counting down from twenty in his mind. Basing his calculations on the formula for terminal velocity — which he'd learned in a library physics textbook — McNally figured that this would be enough time to slow his fall to a safe speed. If he pulled the chute too early, he knew, the air would shred the canopy like tissue paper.

The time came to test his math. McNally fumbled for the ripcord with his right hand, but he made the mistake of leaving his left arm outstretched. Instead of producing the serene, deliberate movements of an experienced skydiver, the wind took hold of his arm and slammed the hijacker into a furious spin

In the midst of the chaos, the parachute exploded out of the chest harness and ejected its spring-loaded contents directly into McNally's face. Blinded and hurting, he managed to grab hold of the shroud lines above him. He tugged hard, and was rewarded with resistance as the canopy filled with air.

He could only look down in horror. The mailbag was twenty feet below him, and getting smaller and smaller by the second. As if in a dream, McNally watched the fortune tumble in slow-motion, end-over-end, until it slipped below the clouds and vanished. McNally tied the bag to his belt loop...

Court records indicate the plane was at 10,000 feet traveling at 263 knots (true air speed)
self taught and made the jump...no special ops, CIA etc..
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:04:50 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1974 on: May 22, 2017, 09:49:36 AM »
If McNally got away, imagine all the mystery people would of put behind him. "master criminal, military background, had to be a pilot, very knowledgeable in aviation, no rookie could of pulled this off"

Would be interesting to find out how far the money traveled....
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 11:06:20 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1975 on: May 22, 2017, 12:47:41 PM »
If the map of McNally's jump and money location are correct, the money traveled over 3 miles. he was going much faster and had double the money...that's a long journey. his pants were found over 8 miles away....
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1976 on: May 23, 2017, 11:31:42 AM »
The search immediately after the hijacking:

Im going through old files cleaning house and ran on to this you might find interesting. It was published by an AP Reporter at Woodland WA after a conversation with law enforcement officials on November 27, 197.

Text follows:

No Trace Of Parachuting Hijacker Mountains Being Searched By ED GROSSWILER Assoclted Press Writer WOODLAND, Wash. (AP) November 27, 1971

Searchers combed a stretch of mountain foothills Friday for the meticulous, parachuting hi- jacker of a Northwest Airlines jet. One sheriff's deputy said the man was "probably long gone" with a ransom of twenty dollar bills.

A 100-man posse, aided by 10 patrol cars and temporarily by six helicopters, fanned out in a five-mile line looking for-two white parachute canopies and portions of a pink chute used by the hijacker Wednesday, night. Patchy fog hung over the sparsely populated area in 'the Cascade Mountains. Intermittent rain and generally deteriorating weather conditions forced authorities to send the helicopters back to their base. "We're either looking for a parachute or a hole in the ground said Undersheriff Tom McDowell.

The hijacker, identified by the FBI only as "D. B. or Dan Cooper" commandeered the Northwest Airlines Boeing 727 jet Flight 305 over Seattle Wednesday and ordered it to Mexico after a re fueling stop in Seattle. The hijacker demanded and received $200,000 and four parachutes while the plane was on the ground in Seattle. In making "an unprecedented parachute escape, from the plane, the middle-age hijacker took with him the ransom from the airline, believed to be one of the largest ever paid, in the United States.

The pilot, Capt. William Scott, told authorities he believed the man bailed out of 'the plane near Woodland, Washington about 25 mile's north of' Portland, Ore.. When the plane, landed at Reno Nevada Wednesday night, the man and two of the four parachutes were missing. FBI agent Tom Manning, coordinating the search, said details of' the plane's speed, course and prevailing winds at the time were fed into a computer at Ft. Lewis, .Wash., to help pinpoint, where the man bailed out and may have landed. Manning said a partially torn parachute was found on the plane. Manning commented: “What we are dealing with here is that the subject has significant lead time and unless he is injured or deceased and still in the area, his whereabouts and identity may remain unknown for some time to come.”

The hijacker may have used pieces of  one parachute to bind the money to him when he jumped, Manning said. He was seen fabricating a harness by the stewardess when she last saw him. Officials refused to say if the bills were marked. Searchers contacted residents of the area Friday to ask whether they had observed a parachute or anything unusual in the area. Two of the parachutes delivered to the plane were military type chutes which open almost immediately, after the jumper leaves (Continued on Page 8, Col. 1) A search for the man is continuing.
[Wirephoto Map SEARCH Map shows Wood- land, Wash. where hijacker is believed to have parachuted from plane.]
 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 11:32:26 AM by georger »
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1977 on: May 23, 2017, 12:21:39 PM »
Shutter wrote: "If McNally got away, imagine all the mystery people would of put behind him. "master criminal, military background, had to be a pilot, very knowledgeable in aviation, no rookie could of pulled this off"

Chuckle... actually a good point Shutter. Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to rule Duane Weber out based on lack of parachuting skills and criminal competence.   ;)

377
 

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1978 on: May 23, 2017, 12:26:58 PM »
Meyer write: "And you are saying the jump was totally survivable -- and after listening to skydivers talk about it over the years, I am inclined to agree."

Actually I can think of only one passenger jet jumper who died: that guy in the Philippines who jumped with a homemade canopy that shredded. Were there any others who cratered for sure?

My DC 9 jet jump was no big deal for me and my 84 sky brothers and sisters. My wild tumbling test jump from a firewalled C 130 Herc was way tougher.

In 2018 I'll celebrate a half century of skydiving. Makes me feel ancient.

377

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1979 on: May 23, 2017, 12:56:37 PM »
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Shutter wrote: "If McNally got away, imagine all the mystery people would of put behind him. "master criminal, military background, had to be a pilot, very knowledgeable in aviation, no rookie could of pulled this off"

Chuckle... actually a good point Shutter. Maybe I shouldn't be so quick to rule Duane Weber out based on lack of parachuting skills and criminal competence.   ;)

377


well, lets not go overboard  :P

I think anyone could jump out of the back of a 727 if they wanted too, the point here was they would of built McNally up larger than life itself, while in actuality he pretty much winged it...

After strapping on a pair of flight goggles, McNally donned a reserve parachute, tightening the straps around his legs and chest, just as he'd been instructed by an FBI agent during an on-the-spot lesson earlier that evening. McNally had never touched a parachute before. This would be his first jump.

Slipping a handgun into his pocket, he descended the stairs haltingly, on his butt, scooting down step-by-step into the roar of the wind. He turned onto his stomach, catching one last look at the rear hatch leading into the passenger cabin; he imagined how easy it would be for someone on the plane to walk back here and shoot him in the head.

McNally's hands were the only things keeping him connected to the plane. His body, suspended from the stairwell at 300 miles per hour, felt like a daisy caught in a hurricane.

The rookie lost his pants, the gun, and money, but made the jump that was much faster than Cooper's speed, and doubled down on the money($500,000)...still, lived to tell the story  O0
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 01:11:40 PM by Shutter »