Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1411255 times)

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #135 on:** July 15, 2014, 05:58:04 PM »

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True about Cooper's methods & gear, but we have two separate hijackings similar to Cooper's, and they both lost there gear. one lost his pants in the jump. if Cooper didn't have enough experience with this type of jump, along with properly securing the gear. it probably separated from him. we have money on a river bank, a close proximity to the jump area. this could also be proof the money separated, or was still attached to him for a period of time undiscovered. I know this is not anything new, but a trend is appearing in the background.

who was the guy who jumped and made it safely to the ground, not McCoy. the one Farf brought up?

Copy cats who made it safely to the ground:

1. Robb Heady, with money (200K less 20K or so)
2. Richard McCoy, with money (500K)
3. Richard LaPoint, lost money north of Denver - in the winter
4. Martin McNally (?) - The kid over Peru, Indiana, lost his money, had no skydiving training whatsoever

sailshaw · « **Reply #136 on:** July 19, 2014, 10:56:05 AM »

Bruce: It is interesting that both Sheridan Peterson and Earl Cossey claimed that Cooper did not know what he was doing and overlooked what Cooper did right. Checking the parachute packing card (and being able to find it) was the action of an experienced skydiver as was his through knowledge of the 727 aft airstairs and how to fly the plane "dirty" so that jump speed would be as slow as possible. Sheridan in an interview mentioned that Cooper would have frozen (dressed as he was) and we know that the exposure time was less than 4 minutes and hardly time to freeze before landing the jump. Both Sheridan and Earl could very well have been partners in the NORJAK caper and that could explain their false information they were both giving the FBI. When I had been talking to Cossey on the telephone and a lunch date had been set-up, I asked Cossey if he knew Sheridan and he turned cold and wanted nothing more to do with me. Cossey had to know Sheridan as they both used the Issaquah jump club and would have spent time together while their students were jumping there. Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club there for jumps and Cossey would have been the packer for their chutes.
Bob Sailshaw
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Robert99 · « **Reply #137 on:** July 19, 2014, 12:00:57 PM »

Sailshaw, there are some problems with your post. First, knowing where to find the packing card on an NB-6 or any other emergency parachute only proves that Cooper had some experience "pre-flighting" emergency parachutes. It does not mean that Cooper was a skydiver or that he had ever made a parachute jump.

The rear cabin of the airliner was unheated and cold from the time the stairs were initially lowered. The wind chill factor at the bottom of the stairs would have been about 35 degrees below zero and Cooper would have been "freeze dried" fast if he lingered on those bottom steps. If he did a free fall to a lower altitude, the wind chill factor during the free fall would also be well below zero. The ambient temperature was around freezing if he was under an open parachute. This exposure to such cold temperatures, even for a couple of minutes, is definitely disabling.

Cossey may well have packed the emergency reserves for skydivers at the Issaquah jump club, but the skydivers themselves probably packed their jump chutes. This was all very legal then and I understand that is still the way things operate.

Robert99

sailshaw · « **Reply #138 on:** July 19, 2014, 10:54:47 PM »

Robert99 Your post about what I said is all rubbish and undeserving of a intelligent response. I have reviewed the exposure "freeze" question with 377 who is not only a skydiver but an engineer/lawyer. He agrees that Cooper did not have time enough to freeze before he was on the ground. The temperature inside the 727 was not as you describe as the planes air conditioning equipment could have handled a slightly open aftairstair and not have done as you described. You are falling for the same arguments the FBI did and is all part of why the case is still unsolved.
Bob Sailshaw
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Robert99 · « **Reply #139 on:** July 20, 2014, 12:19:42 AM »

Sailshaw, I am still looking for that "intelligent response" you alluded to. Surely you understand that the "planes air conditioning equipment" would add to the cold problem if it was actually being used. I'll bet they were using the plane's heating system. And it wouldn't be able to keep the rear cabin from becoming quite cold when the stairs were open.

I did not say that Cooper would be frozen solid. But he was not dressed for the cold even if he had a pair of long johns on. The cold would definitely have gotten to him.

I have been in cockpits where the actual temperature was about 65 or 70 degrees below zero (the needle was completely off the scale and looked liked it had hit a stop of some kind) and I have an immense respect for cold temperatures. On that flight, I was dressed as well as I could have been and the cold was still brutal.

The only reason the Cooper case is still unsolved is because Cooper's body has not been found.

Robert99

georger · « **Reply #140 on:** July 20, 2014, 04:23:23 AM »

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Sailshaw, I am still looking for that "intelligent response" you alluded to. Surely you understand that the "planes air conditioning equipment" would add to the cold problem if it was actually being used. I'll bet they were using the plane's heating system. And it wouldn't be able to keep the rear cabin from becoming quite cold when the stairs were open.

I did not say that Cooper would be frozen solid. But he was not dressed for the cold even if he had a pair of long johns on. The cold would definitely have gotten to him.

I have been in cockpits where the actual temperature was about 65 or 70 degrees below zero (the needle was completely off the scale and looked liked it had hit a stop of some kind) and I have an immense respect for cold temperatures. On that flight, I was dressed as well as I could have been and the cold was still brutal.

The only reason the Cooper case is still unsolved is because Cooper's body has not been found.

Robert99

What was the temperature in the back, stairwell, and on the stairs during the test flight? Did the test flight repeat
the same conditions as for flight 305 during the drop time period?

sailshaw · « **Reply #141 on:** July 20, 2014, 12:08:00 PM »

R99 You still don't get it. You say " "planes air conditioning equipment would add to the cold problem if it was actually being used." This look like you don't understand that the 727 air conditioning packs provide both hot and cold air mixed for the comfort of the passenger. Again you just don't know what you are talking about and your negative comments do not add to the conversation.

Bob Sailshaw
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hom · « **Reply #142 on:** July 20, 2014, 06:48:01 PM »

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What was the temperature in the back, stairwell, and on the stairs during the test flight? Did the test flight repeat
the same conditions as for flight 305 during the drop time period?

I haven't seen anything exact re. the temp during the test flight. The USAF guys did wear heavy jackets. Saiz was comfy in his jump suit in the cabin and down on the stair. The temp would have been close to what it was at 8pm on hijack night (because the mid-day temp when they did the tests was virtually the same as the 8pm temp around Vancouver on hijack night). I'll ask next time I talk to Wally.

It got colder when the flight got down to southern Oregon. Even with it colder outside, the temp indicated for the cabin (not cockpit) was 60 deg. F. Hardly cold for a person with any clothes on. I don't know where in the cabin the sensor was located.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #143 on:** July 20, 2014, 10:24:24 PM »

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What was the temperature in the back, stairwell, and on the stairs during the test flight? Did the test flight repeat
the same conditions as for flight 305 during the drop time period?

I haven't seen anything exact re. the temp during the test flight. The USAF guys did wear heavy jackets. Saiz was comfy in his jump suit in the cabin and down on the stair. The temp would have been close to what it was at 8pm on hijack night (because the mid-day temp when they did the tests was virtually the same as the 8pm temp around Vancouver on hijack night). I'll ask next time I talk to Wally.

It got colder when the flight got down to southern Oregon. Even with it colder outside, the temp indicated for the cabin (not cockpit) was 60 deg. F. Hardly cold for a person with any clothes on. I don't know where in the cabin the sensor was located.

Here is what I know of temps during the jump process.

First, the "wind chill factor" on the stairs is way overstated, here and elsewhere. Numerous skydivers have stated that there is little to no wind on the stairs due to the nature of the slip stream. Hence, there is no wind chill factor to factor. In fact, one poster on the DZ said that when they jumped from a 727 there was a Styrofoam cup half-filled with coffee at the stairway entrance and it didn't move during the jump sequence as there was no air movement to blow it anywhere.

Most skydivers that I have talked with who have jumped from a jet, either a 727 or a DC 9, talk about the calm for a "few moments" once they leave the plane, and then a big wallop as they hit the slipstream.

What most folks talk about is the noise from the engine.

Empirical evidence :

1. Robb Heady jumped June 2, 1972 from 12,000 feet over the Sierras and he said it was "chilly" but not unduly cold. He was dressed much like Cooper. Heady was wearing jeans, a shirt, a vest and a windbreaker. He reported no problem with the conditions, temps or otherwise, even though he estimated that the 727 was traveling at least 300 mph and was probably closer to 350 mph when he exited. He did say that when he hit the slipstream it really kicked his ass and he tumbled for an estimated 15 seconds until he was able to control his descent.

2. Richard Lapoint jumped in mid-January, 1972 wearing only slacks and a shirt. He made it to the ground successfully - wearing his cowboy boots - and landed in the snow. He seemed unaffected by the weather and the wintry conditions.

Shutter · « **Reply #144 on:** July 20, 2014, 10:34:09 PM »

Here is a report on Headly. this one didn't give the speed though....

Date: June 2, 1972

Flight Info: United Airlines Fight 239 from Reno to San Francisco.

The Story: A former Army paratrooper who was taking classes at Western Nevada Community College, the 22-year-old Heady barged onto the Boeing 727 as it prepared for takeoff. Armed with a .357 Magnum revolver and carrying his own parachute, he demanded a $200,000 ransom. Since the local banks were closed for the day, United had to borrow the money from two casinos. Heady collected the ransom on the airport tarmac while holding two flight attendants at gunpoint beneath a blanket flung over their heads; this tactic frustrated an FBI sniper, who was unable to identify Heady and thus held his fire. Once he had the cash, Heady ordered the plane to take off, but engine trouble prevented its departure. Undaunted, Heady asked for and received a second Boeing 727 from United. As this jet soared over Washoe Lake, Heady jumped from the rear door, clutching a canvas bag containing $155,000. (He left $45,000 behind, perhaps because it made the bag too heavy.) He dropped the money on the way down and suffered wounds to his elbow and chest upon landing. He was then arrested when he returned to his car at 5:30 a.m. the next morning; the FBI had wisely staked out the car, which was parked near the lake, because it had a “Member of the U.S. Parachute Association” bumper sticker.

Wonder why he thought it would be to heavy?

Snowmman wrote...
Slim, blond-haired. Held gun to head of stew. Used two hostages as shields when moving between planes. Pilot didn't know he had jumped till stewardess told him. (I guess she saw?)

It looks like 3 out 4 lost the money Bruce.....

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #145 on:** July 20, 2014, 10:49:26 PM »

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Bruce: It is interesting that both Sheridan Peterson and Earl Cossey claimed that Cooper did not know what he was doing and overlooked what Cooper did right. Checking the parachute packing card (and being able to find it) was the action of an experienced skydiver as was his through knowledge of the 727 aft airstairs and how to fly the plane "dirty" so that jump speed would be as slow as possible. Sheridan in an interview mentioned that Cooper would have frozen (dressed as he was) and we know that the exposure time was less than 4 minutes and hardly time to freeze before landing the jump. Both Sheridan and Earl could very well have been partners in the NORJAK caper and that could explain their false information they were both giving the FBI. When I had been talking to Cossey on the telephone and a lunch date had been set-up, I asked Cossey if he knew Sheridan and he turned cold and wanted nothing more to do with me. Cossey had to know Sheridan as they both used the Issaquah jump club and would have spent time together while their students were jumping there. Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club there for jumps and Cossey would have been the packer for their chutes.
Bob Sailshaw
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Yes, Sail, when I read what Petey's view of the skyjacking was, it sounded word-for-word like Cossey. It was as if Petey and Coss read from the same script. Uncanny.

But where did they get the script? Who wrote the script? Coss? Petey? Mr. X?

Or are they bullshitting in the same way? Co-incidence? Hard to believe.

Did Coss and Petey know each other? Seems like they did, and collaborated in some fashion.

Why? Petey did the jump and Cossey helped set it up? Hmmm? That's hard to believe, too, but possible. Petey sure gets himself into very interesting scenarios.

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #146 on:** July 20, 2014, 11:06:30 PM »

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Here is a report on Headly. this one didn't give the speed though....

Date: June 2, 1972

Flight Info: United Airlines Fight 239 from Reno to San Francisco.

The Story: A former Army paratrooper who was taking classes at Western Nevada Community College, the 22-year-old Heady barged onto the Boeing 727 as it prepared for takeoff. Armed with a .357 Magnum revolver and carrying his own parachute, he demanded a $200,000 ransom. Since the local banks were closed for the day, United had to borrow the money from two casinos. Heady collected the ransom on the airport tarmac while holding two flight attendants at gunpoint beneath a blanket flung over their heads; this tactic frustrated an FBI sniper, who was unable to identify Heady and thus held his fire. Once he had the cash, Heady ordered the plane to take off, but engine trouble prevented its departure. Undaunted, Heady asked for and received a second Boeing 727 from United. As this jet soared over Washoe Lake, Heady jumped from the rear door, clutching a canvas bag containing $155,000. (He left $45,000 behind, perhaps because it made the bag too heavy.) He dropped the money on the way down and suffered wounds to his elbow and chest upon landing. He was then arrested when he returned to his car at 5:30 a.m. the next morning; the FBI had wisely staked out the car, which was parked near the lake, because it had a “Member of the U.S. Parachute Association” bumper sticker.

Wonder why he thought it would be to heavy?

Snowmman wrote...
Slim, blond-haired. Held gun to head of stew. Used two hostages as shields when moving between planes. Pilot didn't know he had jumped till stewardess told him. (I guess she saw?)

It looks like 3 out 4 lost the money Bruce.....

Robb told me that he didn't lose the money on the way down. Rather, that was what he told the cops.

Here is what Robb told me: He stuffed about $180,000 stuffed into his vest pockets, and he couldn't fit the last 20K, so he slipped it into the stew's purse. As far as anyone knows, she took it, unless she gave it back and that detail was never released.

When Robb hit the ground he landed awkwardly and banged his elbow and a hip. He was using a reserve and thus was arched backwards as he descended. He pulled at 1,000 feet and had only 5 seconds to prepare for impact. He was surprised that he hit the tarmac of a local highway, so he tumbled backwards when he landed. Thus, he was hobbled. Plus, he was far from his car, as the pilots didn't follow his inflight instructions precisely. So, he knew he was trapped in the Washoe Valley. Hence, he buried the money. Robb later told his attorney where the money was buried, and used it as leverage with the court. Eventually, 155,000K was delivered to the cops in exchange for a lighter sentence.

The cops never corrected the public story. I suspect they liked it better that way. Further, 377 thinks that the attorney pocketed the difference between the 180K and 155K. Robb doesn't know, and at this point doesn't really care as he is satisfied with how things turned out for himself.

So, in actuality it's 2 out of 4 for Getting Away With It. Or rather, Getting to the Ground With It. (Robb and McCoy)

Yes, Lapoint and McNally didn't make it to the ground with their dough. No word on where that dough is...............

Shutter · « **Reply #147 on:** July 20, 2014, 11:09:22 PM »

did he give any info as to how he jumped?

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #148 on:** July 21, 2014, 12:07:58 AM »

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did he give any info as to how he jumped?

Heady? Yup. Robb said he had a 26' reserve under his windbreaker and no one ever saw it. However, he told the stew that he wanted the aft stair door opened, so he figured they knew he was going to jump. He jumped 10-15 minutes after take-off. He borrowed the 357 from a friend. He gave the pilots radio frequencies to follow, as I recall, which were standard heading to SFO from Reno. Little did he know that as he was inbound to SFO Western 401 was taking off, bound for Algeria with its own hijackers aboard.

Shutter · « **Reply #149 on:** July 21, 2014, 05:31:51 PM »

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did he give any info as to how he jumped?

Heady? Yup. Robb said he had a 26' reserve under his windbreaker and no one ever saw it. However, he told the stew that he wanted the aft stair door opened, so he figured they knew he was going to jump. He jumped 10-15 minutes after take-off. He borrowed the 357 from a friend. He gave the pilots radio frequencies to follow, as I recall, which were standard heading to SFO from Reno. Little did he know that as he was inbound to SFO Western 401 was taking off, bound for Algeria with its own hijackers aboard.

Interesting, you wouldn't happen to know why he jumped early do you? many say that was Cooper's intentions.

LaPoint has some interesting facts as well. he was wearing boots with a side zipper on it. isn't that the type Jo says Cooper was wearing? he sprained his ankle wearing them. he jumped from 12,000 feet wearing slacks and a shirt, similar to Cooper. it's quoted that "He was about froze to death." were the temps similar as Cooper's? I haven't checked yet.

Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case (Read 1411255 times)

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

sailshaw

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

sailshaw

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Robert99

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

georger

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

sailshaw

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

hom

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Bruce A. Smith

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case

Shutter

Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case