Author Topic: Book Discussion About DB Cooper  (Read 229396 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #360 on: March 03, 2021, 09:25:01 PM »
Historical Perspective on Dan Cooper comics

The FBI did not know about Dan Cooper comics until Snowmman told Larry Carr about them in 2009. Snow is not well-known here at the DBCF, but back in the day he was a major force on the DZ.

In about 2009 he started developing computer models on a variety of subjects, such as ideal suspects. He also discovered the comics.

At the same time, Snow decided to feed me LOTS of tips, addresses, and leads. His assistance has been critical to the development of my book. Snow led me to Sheridan Peterson, and in turn, Petey's brother, Pete's first ex-wife Claire, some of the kids, Mary Jean Fryar, Petey's buddies in Vietnam, some of his writing friends, etc. Lots.

Snow really dug into the Dan Cooper comics, and in turn Larry Carr robustly embraced them. Then Carol Abracadabra followed suit. But no one was able to show any connection to Coop. One missing piece then, and still to this day, is information from the commando community. Not one SOG trooper I talked with (another major Snow info dump) mentioned reading or knowing about the comics. Similarly, to this day I know of no one in the skydiving community who is familiar with the comix.

As a result, I consider the Dan Cooper comics an enticing dead-end.

Lastly, Snowmman was the master of irony, snobbism, and elite-ism. For those of you upset with Georger, or wish that EU could get off his high horse and hope Chaucer will actually pull his head out of his ass, Snow cudda eaten theirs and your lunch all day, every day.

In fact, Snow was the first in the Cooper Vortex to be banned permanently from any DBC chat room, the DZ in 2010. Even though I love the guy, the banishment was well-deserved. That said, I supported 377's frequent request to the moderators at the DZ to rescind Snow's fate and restore his voice to the conversation. But that never happened, alas.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 09:37:45 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #361 on: March 03, 2021, 09:46:23 PM »
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Historical Perspective on Dan Cooper comics

The FBI did not know about Dan Cooper comics until Snowmman told Larry Carr about them in 2009. Snow is not well-known here at the DBCF, but back in the day he was a major force on the DZ.

In about 2009 he started developing computer models on a variety of subjects, such as ideal suspects. He also discovered the comics.

At the same time, Snow decided to feed me LOTS of tips, addresses, and leads. His assistance has been critical to the development of my book. Snow led me to Sheridan Peterson, and in turn, Petey's brother, Pete's first ex-wife Claire, some of the kids, Mary Jean Fryar, Petey's buddies in Vietnam, some of his writing friends, etc. Lots.

Snow really dug into the Dan Cooper comics, and in turn Larry Carr robustly embraced them. Then Carol Abracadabra followed suit. But no one was able to show any connection to Coop. One missing piece then, and still to this day, is information from the commando community. Not one SOG trooper I talked with (another major Snow info dump) mentioned reading or knowing about the comics. Similarly, to this day I know of no one in the skydiving community who is familiar with the comix.

As a result, I consider the Dan Cooper comics an enticing dead-end.

Lastly, Snowmman was the master of irony, snobbism, and elite-ism. For those of you upset with Georger, or wish that EU could get off his high horse and hope Chaucer will actually pull his head out of his ass, Snow cudda eaten theirs and your lunch all day, every day.

In fact, Snow was the first in the Cooper Vortex to be banned permanently from any DBC chat room, the DZ in 2010. Even though I love the guy, the banishment was well-deserved. That said, I supported 377's frequent request to the moderators at the DZ to rescind Snow's fate and restore his voice to the conversation. But that never happened, alas.

But no real way to know if DBC took the name from the comic.  I mean. What are the odds?  He buys his ticket Dan Cooper.  Do you think there is any merit to him being non American?  I am not going to say he s American based solely on him buying a cheap tie at Penney’s.  Lastly, do you think the very big exchange rate on American currency could have played any role?  Such as laundering the money in Canada?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #362 on: March 04, 2021, 02:42:35 AM »
Did Danny select his moniker from a comic book? Maybe. Maybe not. I think the latter. If true, though, it's a hellava coincidence.

As for Danny being a Canuck, I feel he was not. To wit: the "negotiable American currency" quote is from a cockpit teletype thingie from 305 to NWO. Is that what Danny actually said? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I opt for the latter.

If Danny spoke in such intellectualized and arcane language, I think Tina would have picked up on it. Her quote in the Philly-based debrief in a 302 has her stating simply, "he wanted cash." That sounds like the Danny Boy I have come to know and love.

Did a favorable exchange rate motivate a Canadian to cross the border and steal a US jetliner so he could get American buckaroos? Maybe. But I strongly think other, more compelling factors would have guided his thinking.

Look at it this way - flip the premise. Would an American want to cross the border into Canada to jack a plane because he saw some advantage? I wouldn't. There are too many Canadian slang terms that could trip me up along the way, such as someone asking me if a want a "touk?" I had a girlfriend do that on a cold day and I looked at her like she had two heads. Then she explained it was a wool ski cap.

Or someone saying, "Yo, dude, you dropped your toonie." Or shouting "Arrete," while I cross a street in traffic - lots of ways to out a Yankee north o' the border, which may be why those who fly the red maple leaf have turned me down twice for immigration - once to Quebec and once to BC.

Capice?
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #363 on: March 04, 2021, 05:19:58 AM »
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Did Danny select his moniker from a comic book? Maybe. Maybe not. I think the latter. If true, though, it's a hellava coincidence.

As for Danny being a Canuck, I feel he was not. To wit: the "negotiable American currency" quote is from a cockpit teletype thingie from 305 to NWO. Is that what Danny actually said? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I opt for the latter.

If Danny spoke in such intellectualized and arcane language, I think Tina would have picked up on it. Her quote in the Philly-based debrief in a 302 has her stating simply, "he wanted cash." That sounds like the Danny Boy I have come to know and love.

Did a favorable exchange rate motivate a Canadian to cross the border and steal a US jetliner so he could get American buckaroos? Maybe. But I strongly think other, more compelling factors would have guided his thinking.

They would not let me in once and that was in a pre Covid and 911 world.  Imagine their paranoia now.  They are beyond belief.  I wonder what the damn jails are like up there?  LOL. I do not want to find out.  The only thing is, its possible he could have been one of those Canadians that did a lot of back and forth traveling and felt comfortable in both countries.  Its possible. Anything is possible as right now no investigation from the facts we know can be a waste of time.  The clock is ticking on finding him alive.  And that is maybe a long shot?  Not everyone lives to be in their 90s.   Assuming their descriptions of his age were accurate.  i would not put him any older, after all, he was about to jump from 10,000 feet out of a moving plane at night.  That takes some balls if you are in your 20's.  As for books, the subject of this thread, like I have said, lets hope that he made a journal to be found someday telling us the whole story.  It might be tempting for him to do, assuming he lived long enough to do so.  As for the money, he had to have done something with it, laundered some of it.  If he did it in Canada, would it not be easier for it to slip through the cracks?
Look at it this way - flip the premise. Would an American want to cross the border into Canada to jack a plane because he saw some advantage? I wouldn't. There are too many Canadian slang terms that could trip me up along the way, such as someone asking me if a want a "touk?" I had a girlfriend do that on a cold day and I looked at her like she had two heads. Then she explained it was a wool ski cap.

Or someone saying, "Yo, dude, you dropped your toonie." Or shouting "Arrete," while I cross a street in traffic - lots of ways to out a Yankee north o' the border, which may be why those who fly the red maple leaf have turned me down twice for immigration - once to Quebec and once to BC.

Capice?
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #364 on: March 04, 2021, 12:12:09 PM »
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Did Danny select his moniker from a comic book? Maybe. Maybe not. I think the latter. If true, though, it's a hellava coincidence.

As for Danny being a Canuck, I feel he was not. To wit: the "negotiable American currency" quote is from a cockpit teletype thingie from 305 to NWO. Is that what Danny actually said? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, I opt for the latter.

If Danny spoke in such intellectualized and arcane language, I think Tina would have picked up on it. Her quote in the Philly-based debrief in a 302 has her stating simply, "he wanted cash." That sounds like the Danny Boy I have come to know and love.

Did a favorable exchange rate motivate a Canadian to cross the border and steal a US jetliner so he could get American buckaroos? Maybe. But I strongly think other, more compelling factors would have guided his thinking.

They would not let me in once and that was in a pre Covid and 911 world.  Imagine their paranoia now.  They are beyond belief.  I wonder what the damn jails are like up there?  LOL. I do not want to find out.  The only thing is, its possible he could have been one of those Canadians that did a lot of back and forth traveling and felt comfortable in both countries.  Its possible. Anything is possible as right now no investigation from the facts we know can be a waste of time.  The clock is ticking on finding him alive.  And that is maybe a long shot?  Not everyone lives to be in their 90s.   Assuming their descriptions of his age were accurate.  i would not put him any older, after all, he was about to jump from 10,000 feet out of a moving plane at night.  That takes some balls if you are in your 20's.  As for books, the subject of this thread, like I have said, lets hope that he made a journal to be found someday telling us the whole story.  It might be tempting for him to do, assuming he lived long enough to do so.  As for the money, he had to have done something with it, laundered some of it.  If he did it in Canada, would it not be easier for it to slip through the cracks?
Look at it this way - flip the premise. Would an American want to cross the border into Canada to jack a plane because he saw some advantage? I wouldn't. There are too many Canadian slang terms that could trip me up along the way, such as someone asking me if a want a "touk?" I had a girlfriend do that on a cold day and I looked at her like she had two heads. Then she explained it was a wool ski cap.

Or someone saying, "Yo, dude, you dropped your toonie." Or shouting "Arrete," while I cross a street in traffic - lots of ways to out a Yankee north o' the border, which may be why those who fly the red maple leaf have turned me down twice for immigration - once to Quebec and once to BC.

Capice?

Disregard.  Quoted and posted by error.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #365 on: May 02, 2021, 10:36:14 PM »
So, with the Vortex being a bit quiet lately, I decided to read Tosaw’s book for the third time. My copy is a 1984 edition so I know it is missing some newer information and context, but I’ve always trusted it as a cornerstone of Cooper-cana.

It got me thinking about something though, and I hope some of you more experienced guys might offer an opinion.

How accurate is Tosaw’s book? Are his facts actually factual? Did he do his homework or was it half-assed? If not, what things did he get wrong?
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Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #366 on: May 02, 2021, 11:59:31 PM »
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So, with the Vortex being a bit quiet lately, I decided to read Tosaw’s book for the third time. My copy is a 1984 edition so I know it is missing some newer information and context, but I’ve always trusted it as a cornerstone of Cooper-cana.

It got me thinking about something though, and I hope some of you more experienced guys might offer an opinion.

How accurate is Tosaw’s book? Are his facts actually factual? Did he do his homework or was it half-assed? If not, what things did he get wrong?

Tosaw's 'interest' in the Cooper case covers a lot of terrain, to put it mildly. Tosaw spent a few years as an FBI Agent prior to the Cooper hijacking in 1971, but his employment was not renewed after several reviews. He wasn't fired but he wasn't promoted or renewed. At some point he became an attorney practicing in estate recovery issues. He liked challenges, adventure, and mysteries. He became a publicity hound - always advising the press what his latest recovery adventure/project was. He had a famous brother, Mike Tosaw. He didn't become involved in the Cooper case until just after Cooper money was found at Vancouver - he quickly issued a press 'release' in California (Feb 1980) that he now would launch 'investigations and explorations' looking for Cooper's body Cooper artifacts in the Columbia, near the Ingram money find. Almost two years passed before Tosaw actually hired anyone to do any actual searches in the Columbia. At some point during this period he became the attorney for the Ingrams demanding a reward for the Ingrams (from anyone!) for their discovery of the Cooper money. He said that he was working pro-bono for the Ingram family. On June 19,1984 Tosaw published his book: DB Cooper Dead Or Alive. With revenue from his book he finally got down to business and hired several people who conducted a series of searches from the Caterpillar Island area along wing dams back toward Portland, with press releases covering the whole thing until time and energy and enthusiasm ran out. Several of the divers Tosaqw hired said that he told them he was an FBI Agent 'working on the case'. Tosaw even rotor-tilled the beach at Tina Bar! Tosaw continued his interest in Cooper clear until 2000 when he met one Galen Cook who worked with Tosaw in one of his Columbia searches. During his life he developed some kind of relationship with pilot Wm Rataczak - he left Rataczak a bequest in his will.

Different people have different things to say about Richard Tosaw. He left a long string of press releases during his life, with mixed results.

"Tosaw, Richard T. 84 3/13/1925 9/16/2009 Richard T. Tosaw, 84, son of Anastasia Dunn and Walter Tosaw, died in his sleep of cancer. Richard moved to Oregon after a long residence in Modesto, Calif. Mr. Tosaw was born in Lincoln, Neb. He spent his boyhood years in Nebraska and Minnesota, graduated from Central High in Omaha, Neb., and served as a signalman for the U.S. Coast Guard. He attended Nebraska, Creighton and Denver universities, receiving his law degree in 1951. Mr. Tosaw served five years in the Seattle and San Francisco offices of the FBI. He opened a private law practice and founded The Bureau of Missing Heirs, Inc., specializing in escheat law. Richard authored five California laws and two books. As hobbies, he patented a periscope, searched for skyjacker D.B. Cooper and footballer Neil Kinnick, and traveled extensively. He is survived and loved by two sisters, Helen McCleskey of King City and Dorothy Thomson of Wickenberg, Ariz. "Uncle Dick" will be missed by many nieces, nephews and dear friends. Richard never married or had any children."
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 12:04:11 AM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #367 on: May 03, 2021, 12:12:14 AM »
Thanks, georger. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to imply that readers of Tosaw’s book should take the things he says with a grain of salt.

Two things stuck out to me. One, he said that Sonderlind had told him that based on his review of the flight data and the radar, the search area for Cooper extended all the way to the Columbia. Tosaw even had him perform the calculations in front of him to confirm that which Sonderlind did. This is extremely compelling IF TRUE.

Second, Tosaw said that he and another guy were “raking” the beach at Tena Bar and found parachute material which Earl Cossey subsequently denied being his. Knowing what we know now about Cossey’s own reliability (or lack thereof) regarding the chutes, this discovery IF TRUE might be seen in a different light today.

I tend to agree with the broad strokes of Tosaw’s conclusions even if some of the details have since been proven wrong.

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Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #368 on: May 03, 2021, 12:42:15 AM »
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Thanks, georger. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to imply that readers of Tosaw’s book should take the things he says with a grain of salt.

Two things stuck out to me. One, he said that Sonderlind had told him that based on his review of the flight data and the radar, the search area for Cooper extended all the way to the Columbia. Tosaw even had him perform the calculations in front of him to confirm that which Sonderlind did. This is extremely compelling IF TRUE.

Second, Tosaw said that he and another guy were “raking” the beach at Tena Bar and found parachute material which Earl Cossey subsequently denied being his. Knowing what we know now about Cossey’s own reliability (or lack thereof) regarding the chutes, this discovery IF TRUE might be seen in a different light today.

I tend to agree with the broad strokes of Tosaw’s conclusions even if some of the details have since been proven wrong.

The raking story is true.  Tosaws' discussions with Sonderlind are true. I can site several other examples where Tosaw's digging got him useful information not just in the Cooper case but in other projects he researched. Tosaw had a knack for getting down to fundamentals that produced results which sometimes shocked and upset some of his critics.

In the Kinnick case, no one at the time had the faintest idea where (exactly) Kinnick's plane might be, on the bottom of the ocean off Argentina. Through solid research and one FOIA Tosaw was able to get a copy of the log from the USS Lexington, the ship Kinnick was trying to land on when his aircraft stalled and he crashed into the ocean off Argentina. In the Lexington's log was an estimate of the coordinates where they thought Kinnick had gone down! Using those coordinates Tosaw hired divers and when they dove at those coordinates they quickly found the remains of Kinnick's plane on the ocean floor. True to form, Tosaw published his discovery through press releases - people back at Iowa City were shocked and some were deeply embittered! Legal and State Department/US Navy action followed trying to keep Tosaw from raising Kinnick's plane. The plane was in Argentine waters. Just short of a Sate Dept legal edict, Tosaw backed off and issued a press release informing the world that Kinnick's plane was in such a state of degradation the plane could not be raised, in any event. He issued a second reply that 'no artifacts will be attempted to be retrieved either ...'. To this day nobody knows if he brought artifacts back to the surface or not. But this controversy still rings in my State and at Iowa City ... to this day.

We learned firsthand not to ever underestimate Mr Tosaw. ! :-\   

So far as I know there are no artifacts from Kinnck's plane in Tosaw's estate. If any do ever surface from Tosaw's expedition, ... I dont want to imagine what might follow. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 12:50:31 AM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #369 on: May 03, 2021, 01:18:40 AM »
If the parachute story is true, then holy shit. Finding parachute material on Tena Bar is stunning- regardless of what Cossey said. I wonder what became of that material?
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Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #370 on: May 03, 2021, 01:26:39 AM »
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If the parachute story is true, then holy shit. Finding parachute material on Tena Bar is stunning- regardless of what Cossey said. I wonder what became of that material?

The FBI supposedly has it. Any 302s about it ?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 01:31:07 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #371 on: May 03, 2021, 04:42:09 AM »
Here's what I know about Richard Tosaw that can expand upon what Georger has so ably delivered above.

The parachute. I don't know if this is the parachute you are talking about, but Galen and Richard found a pilot chute snared on a wing dam in about ten feet of water about a half mile south/upstream of T-Bar.

Bill Rataczak helped Richard write his book. Both Bill and Galen have told me that Richard told them that Tina's memory was shot when he talked with her in the convent, circa early 1980s.

Based upon that perspective, I believe that most of the dialogue that Richard ascribes to Tina is actually poetic license, and that Richard got most of his "Tina facts" from his brother, Mike, who worked in the Seattle FBI FO.

Richard was a nice guy. I talked with him briefly in 2009 just before he died. I wish I had met him. Even though he was dying of cancer, he signed his book for me.

Richard spent a lot of time at T-Bar. One summer he even rented a camping spot from the Fazios and moved an RV trailer to he site. Galen spent a month with him at that time. Richard's executors bequeathed Galen some of Richard's Coopers research notes, including the "fiery object" story from "Janet."

Himms couldn't stand Richard, apparently, especially Richard's loose characterization of his official FBI status regarding Norjak.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #372 on: May 03, 2021, 09:42:21 AM »
And just to mention one other fact, there were parachutes reported all over the place. The FBI details several parachutes found around rivers from the northern tip of the dropzone to the Columbia.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #373 on: May 03, 2021, 01:00:32 PM »
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And just to mention one other fact, there were parachutes reported all over the place. The FBI details several parachutes found around rivers from the northern tip of the dropzone to the Columbia.
This is interesting. Still, finding a parachute at the same location as the money find is very compelling evidence.

I wish I could look at Sonderlind’s calculations. I’ve long believed that the dropzone could extend all the way south to the Columbia but have no solid evidence to support it. I’d love to know how he arrived at that conclusion.
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Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #374 on: May 03, 2021, 01:41:23 PM »
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And just to mention one other fact, there were parachutes reported all over the place. The FBI details several parachutes found around rivers from the northern tip of the dropzone to the Columbia.

agree !