Author Topic: Book Discussion About DB Cooper (Read 240167 times)

Shutter · « **Reply #135 on:** April 15, 2016, 03:26:25 PM »

As georger stated, how much touching, or transfer was involved with the other back pack? the only chute that was left behind he put his hands all over was the emergency front pack. that could possibly have deposits on it.

377 · « **Reply #136 on:** April 15, 2016, 03:53:03 PM »

If the exotic metals found on the tie material came from Norman's machine shop then it indicates nothing about where Cooper worked.

377

Robert99 · « **Reply #137 on:** April 15, 2016, 04:18:09 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

If the exotic metals found on the tie material came from Norman's machine shop then it indicates nothing about where Cooper worked.

377

On the contrary, it means that Cooper could have worked in Norman's machine shop or a similar operation. How it got on Cooper's tie, assuming that is Cooper's tie in the first place, is another matter. Of course, if it got on Norman's parachutes and then was transferred to the tie from the parachute Cooper took, it says nothing about where Cooper worked.

georger · « **Reply #138 on:** April 15, 2016, 04:36:55 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If the exotic metals found on the tie material came from Norman's machine shop then it indicates nothing about where Cooper worked.

377

On the contrary, it means that Cooper could have worked in Norman's machine shop or a similar operation. How it got on Cooper's tie, assuming that is Cooper's tie in the first place, is another matter. Of course, if it got on Norman's parachutes and then was transferred to the tie from the parachute Cooper took, it says nothing about where Cooper worked.

And the same for the chutes Cossey packed/supplied?

Hayden's chutes have had an extensive "tour" since they were given to Cooper. If the source is Hayden's chutes who is to say the source was Hayden's machine shop? The 727 itself has been dismissed as the possible source?

Who is going to do the sampling and the SEM work?

377 · « **Reply #139 on:** April 15, 2016, 05:40:08 PM »

Georger wrote: "Who is going to do the sampling and the SEM work?"

Tom and Al would be good choices. They did the tie work and own their own SEMS. I chatted over beers with them in Portland about the hassles in owning and operating old SEMS no longer supported by mfrs. Man were those guys resourceful, even down to sub-board level component and IC replacement, making parts, etc. Good guys. Smart and amiable.

377

Bruce A. Smith · « **Reply #140 on:** April 15, 2016, 08:37:46 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Bruce wrote: "Mark you continue to Drive Me Crazy with your fixation on the NB-8. Norman did not have one. He had a Pioneer, with a 26-foot Steinthaul canopy, which is what is in the WSHM."

I stand corrected Bruce, but the error is inconsequential in this context. I just want to know if either or both of Normans rigs might have picked up Titanium, Aluminum and Bismuth from Norman's machine shop. Doesn't matter what kind of rigs they were. Just want to know if they were the source of tie metals.

377

Understood.

t'anks.

Tom Kaye · « **Reply #141 on:** April 27, 2016, 11:37:52 AM »

Guys,

I am really happy to say that testing the chute is a good idea, bravo!! If Cooper pulled off his tie early, and any of the chutes landed on the tie sitting on the seat, it could have transferred particles. Going in we would have to agree that it would take a lot of Ti particles on the chute to get a few to transfer over. If 377 wanted to get down there we could supply him with the right stuff.

Tom Kaye

georger · « **Reply #142 on:** April 27, 2016, 01:04:32 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Guys,

I am really happy to say that testing the chute is a good idea, bravo!! If Cooper pulled off his tie early, and any of the chutes landed on the tie sitting on the seat, it could have transferred particles. Going in we would have to agree that it would take a lot of Ti particles on the chute to get a few to transfer over. If 377 wanted to get down there we could supply him with the right stuff. Anything less amounts to pure "cro·ny·ism".

Tom Kaye

If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

Shutter · « **Reply #143 on:** April 27, 2016, 04:10:20 PM »

Isn't the first step finding out if Hayden was actually around Ti?

georger · « **Reply #144 on:** April 27, 2016, 04:12:36 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Guys,

I am really happy to say that testing the chute is a good idea, bravo!! If Cooper pulled off his tie early, and any of the chutes landed on the tie sitting on the seat, it could have transferred particles. Going in we would have to agree that it would take a lot of Ti particles on the chute to get a few to transfer over. If 377 wanted to get down there we could supply him with the right stuff.

Tom Kaye

The provenance for this goes clear back to 2011. Snow & 377 suggested a possible association between chute(s) and tie particles, as per the below. I picked up on it and commented. Tom evidently was doing other things and didnt see this? Tom never commented. The topic went no further at DZ because people were busy posting other things of interest to them. Thus, the topic got dropped. But, the association idea has been there for a long time and apparently nobody thought to do some actual sampling at Seattle when the tie sampling waas being done ... so now in 2016 it comes up again as a NEW/OLD idea reborn.

377 (F 666)

Nov 11, 2011, 1:57 PM
Post #28421 of 58140 (50916 views)
Shortcut
Norman's shop [In reply to]

________________________________________
Georger wrote:
Quote:
377 is ALWAYS looking for some obscure
improbable explanation for the ordinary ?
attorney gobblewobble.

In the real world, the moment Cooper pulled
that chute out to cut lines, that chute contained
and distributed particulate matter unquestionably,
which is distributed to everything in the area
including Cooper's tie, whether he was wearing it or
just nearby. Cossey's chute is probably the source
for some of the particles found on the tie -not all
but some.

What matterials are to be found in Cossey shop
or packing area?

Its common sense.

Georger,

Did you miss the part where the two Cooper chutes were allegedly taken to the plane from Norman Hayden (who then owned and still runs a machine shop), not from Cossey's rigging loft? Hayden still has the main chute not used, with Cossey's signature on the packing card. It is stored in his machine shop.

Norman Hayden worked on stuff for Boeing. Dunno if he was machining pure titanium pre Norjack but it's sure worth asking.

Snow suggests:

Quote:
first: TK doesn't have the provenance of the Rigs right. Someone needs to educate the scientist

two: We have another piece of gear that was on the plane with Cooper. Hayden's rig. It was also alongside the rig that cooper actually took, for some unknown length of time (years?)

So: the obvious scientist thing to do:

TK has to analyze the cloth on Hayden's rig for Titanium.

377

Farflung

Nov 11, 2011, 3:33 PM
Post #28425 of 58140 (50882 views)
Shortcut
Provenance [In reply to]

________________________________________
So you may find out that the titanium shaving came from Hayden or Cossey through an act of transference or whatever. Back to square zero.

If it turns out that neither of them ever touched titanium then the race continues with a search of aerospacey and biomedically based industries as some indicator of where that necktie had spent some of its existence. I’m sure a favorite company will be located and someone will remember a real squirrely guy that others secretly thought was Cooper but never mentioned before.

Never mind the provenance of the necktie. Did Cooper buy the thing the day before? Why switch from a tie tack to a clasp? What was on the back of the tie? Doesn’t matter.

One twenty dollar bill will nuke all other pursuits for what they have been which may be described as tangential under the most honorable of terms or pure BS in more realistic. Why are all the suspects suddenly associated with the machining of exotic metals? If a vane from an ostrich feather was discovered on the tie, how many suspects would suddenly be discovered to have a background performing as drag queens?

If some DNA matches someone it is game over, no matter where they worked or what they normally dressed like. If some fingerprints match it will be the same thing.

If it turns out Hayden supplied the chutes and they were identical, the sage selection of a superior rig should go out the window but it will still walk and even run a few miles without a head. Once these stories are hatched they don’t die easy.

georger · « **Reply #145 on:** April 27, 2016, 04:14:15 PM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Isn't the first step finding out if Hayden was actually around Ti?

Hayden's chutes could have picked up particles during their history prior to Hayden. The challenge was to have thought about this, as per the below from 2011, when it mattered.

Shutter · « **Reply #146 on:** April 27, 2016, 04:16:19 PM »

what if the tie wasn't Cooper's?

Tom Kaye · « **Reply #147 on:** April 27, 2016, 07:11:02 PM »

If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

[/quote]

Ah classic Georger, offers to help are met with complete hostility. Ok Georger, go see if you can find a qualified scientist with an SEM that meets your standards. Seems I was the best you could come up with in 2008 but I am sure your circle of professional scientists is much bigger now.

Tom Kaye

377 · « **Reply #148 on:** April 27, 2016, 07:40:37 PM »

Nice to see you on the forum Tom. please give my best to Al and Carol.

You raised a good point about how dense the population of metals on the rigs would have to be to transfer the amounts observed on the tie. I think it's reasonable to assume that the tie had only fleeting contact with the rigs.

The Bismuth along with non alloyed Ti has got to narrow the field of possible sources quite a bit. I've done a lot of reading about where and how Bismuth is used and haven't come up with anything especially helpful. It has been used as a machining lubricant for use with hard steel alloys.

I am still amazed you and Al can keep those old orphan SEMs running. That takes real resourcefulness.

Hope we will get a chance to share a beer again. really enjoyed doing that in Portland. Hope all is well.

377

georger · « **Reply #149 on:** April 28, 2016, 12:38:42 AM »

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

If somebody is going to do lab analysis on the chute(s) it must be somebody NEW who has real qualifications and lab affiliation. "Nice guy" is not a qualification.

Is your goal science or more photo ops/movie? Don't compromise science for personal promotion.

Ah classic Georger, offers to help are met with complete hostility. Ok Georger, go see if you can find a qualified scientist with an SEM that meets your standards. Seems I was the best you could come up with in 2008 but I am sure your circle of professional scientists is much bigger now.

Tom Kaye
[/quote]

All I am saying is new blood with a new approach is needed, imho. Everything else was laid out and explained years ago. You can read it all on Dropzone. Examining the chutes and comparing with tie (particles) was suggested years ago even before Snowmman and Mark's DZ post above in 2011, followed by Farflung's observation.

Tom, it is now 2016! Is there any clock on this work? Didn't I ask the same question several times after waiting months back in 2008?

I don't remember that this project was supposed to take forever, with you (and 377?) having exclusive perpetual rights. When did 377 join your team?

Maybe the Chinese will start their own project next month and finish in ten days?

Or, maybe this is a perpetual project and that was never clear? Who owns these samples - you or the government? Or, if you own all of the samples then you probably can take forever. 377 owns a Cooper bill. Does he own some of your samples (soon)?