Author Topic: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper  (Read 10684 times)

Offline Ron and Pat

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Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« on: May 19, 2014, 11:47:33 AM »
Since I haven't been involved much in previous blogs I'm not sure if this has already been explored, but I think it would be interesting to look at how the FBI handled skyjackers previous to the D B Cooper caper. It might give us some insights into why the FBI handled their investigation into the Cooper Caper. The FBI was very different back then.
We recently stumbled onto the story of 58 November. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 This was a skyjacking that occurred in October, 1971 where the FBI got trigger happy and contributed to loss of life. Lawyers were quickly involved. I think this shows why the FBI was so willing to meet Cooper's demands. It could also explain why the FBI wanted the public to believe Cooper died during the jump. They basically wanted the story to die quickly.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 11:59:18 AM »
Welcome to the forum. I'm sure just about everything has been discussed at one point. we have explored other hijackings, but I'm opening to looking into anything related to the crime. feel free to post anything you have to add on the comment above. if you have any problems navigating through the site, just give me a shout.

Shutter
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 12:01:21 PM »
Wow, I have never heard about this one before.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 12:06:24 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 12:59:49 PM »
This is truly a disturbing incident. here are some of the transcripts with the problem being resolved the wrong way!

Thes were the days before Dave Clark headsets were everywhere, so the radio was monitored through the cockpit speakers, and the hijacker could hear everything. The FBI came over the radio and said,

" 58N,THIS IS THE FBI, THERE WILL BE NO FUEL< THERE WILL BE NO STARTER."

58N said "Look, I don't think this fellows kiddin here, I need the fuel truck out here please."

"58N, THIS IS THE FBI THERE WILL BE NO FUEL THERE WILL BE NO STARTER, CUT YOUR ENGINES."

58N Said "You are endagering lives by doing this, and we ask for the sake of some lives to please get the fuel truck out here."

FBI "58N, THIS IS THE FBI, THERE WILL BE NO FUEL, I REPEAT, THERE WILL BE NO FUEL, PASSANGERS, IF YOU ARE LISTENING, YOU'RE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IS TO DEPART THE AIRPLANE."

The captain talked the hijacker into letting the co-pilot off to talk to the FBI, he said yes. The second hijacker went with him.

At 9:24Z after the co-pilot and the 2nd hijacker deplaned, the FBI opened fire on the plane. The hijacker freaked out and shot the captain twice, his screaming wife 3 times and then killed himself.

My mother ended up filing a law suit against the FBI and J Edgar Hoover. She became the first US citizen to ever win a civil suit against the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover.


here is another shocking report....

J. Edgar Hoover awarded commendations the next morning to the agents involved in the shootout, something that still leaves Andy in disbelief. Andy is the son of the pilot killed on the plane Brent Downs.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 02:08:52 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 07:03:07 PM »
Handling hijackings was a mixed affair.  Some FBI were cowboys, others not so much.  The most troubling events occurred when the teams were mixed.  Dorwin Schroeder told me that one skyjacker was gun-downed by federal cowboys while he was talking to the hijacker and arranging a stand down.  He heard the shots over the phone, and when he told me the story he still sounded upset.

The book, "The Skies Belong to Us - Love and Romance in the Age of Skyjacking," reveals lots of the tragedies.  FBI-initiated shoot-outs were commonplace.  In fact, some airlines had to conspire with the hijackers to circumvent the FBI, such as the hijacking of Western 401 in San Francisco International.  The airlines had to lie to the feds to roll the plane out for take-off to foil the FBI's attempt to storm the plane.

One such storming in another hijacking resulted in passenger fatalities, a circumstance that did not seem to faze the Bureau, according to reports that I've read.  Along those lines, I've never heard any agent criticize the cowboy approach.

As for DB Cooper, I think there were two over-arching dynamics at play.  One was Nyrop and his insistence to comply with the skyjacker.  This comports with the general thinking in the aviation industry that it was much cheaper to pay off the skyjacker than risk a multi-million dollar aircraft and plenty of liability suits with the passengers.

Of course the FBI disagreed with that thinking, but Himmelsbach gives what I consider an accurate picture of the FBI's thinking on November 24, 1971 - DB Cooper had the upper hand and the Bureau had to let him play it out.  He had the bomb, which was a game-changer, and he had a plan that he executed very well and seemed to be one-step ahead of the feds at all points.  I sense that the Feds thought they'd catch up to him over time.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 07:08:39 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2014, 07:39:52 PM »
Any way you look at this, it's an injustice. the FBI gives passengers an alternative to deplane? how exactly is that done while being held hostage?
 "IF YOU ARE LISTENING, YOU'RE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IS TO DEPART THE AIRPLANE."

Sometimes you never know who is reading something on the internet. below is a comment about an article about the hijacking.

Charles Gillihan writes
This article commits the fallacy of induction. One cannot expect all scenarios to be the same based upon one or several individual's behavior. The whole is not determined by the particulars. A general guide on defense will not be the same due to variations by different behaviors.

Dear Charles Gillihan,
The same ignorance you showed in your comments in defense of the FBI is the same type of ignorance that killed all on board. If you would like to talk to me about this please call 615-474-####. I am the oldest son of Brent Downs.

 

Offline 58November

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 02:28:52 AM »
My name is Andy Downs and my father was the Captain killed on the 58 November flight.
I first want to thank whoever posted this info. It means a great deal to me and my family.

My dad's flight did make nation news. If you go to the VIDEO Tab on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login site you will see Walter Cronkite Reporting on the event.

However DB Cooper took the spotlight quick and pushed coverage of my dad's case way down.

I am posting a link to a private url I have set up in the site IMGUR See: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

On this private link you will be able to see what the FBI policies were and how they should handle a hijacked plane
In this link the first document you read is the recent letter I received from the FAA. The claim to have no records of my dad;s hijacking at all.
This is odd since FAA personal were involved in the depositions and testimony as witness in both Federal Court trials that took place.

My dad's case has been erased from the Government archive records....you can read the letter, but it basically states the hijacking did not take place. Since part of the FAA's mandate is to track these events, and as strange as it is, it fits a pattern of what I have had to endure in trying  gather the records

After the FAA denial read the files and see the actual crime scene photos.....
Keep in mind the judge that heard the case against the FBI, Judge L. Clure Morton was in fact a former FBI agent. Outside of ruling for the FBI, he placed all  the files in court be placed "Under Seal"
It has taken a great deal of effort over the last 6 years to get these documents,'I look forward to your response         

This second memo shows how ALL FBI were supposed to handle any hijacked plane.
               It is important to note that up until 9/11 all Captains in the US had the protections if the need be to protect their crews and passengers..

It is also interesting that whenever these rules were followed, not a singe injury or death took place from 1970 thru 9/11
When the FBI or others decided to get tough in lieu of reading

These are pages directly from the FBI handbook at this time.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 09:42:55 AM »
Welcome to the forum Andy! I look forward to viewing the links you provided. Ron & Pat where the one's who brought the story here. I started looking into the story shortly after they posted. as I mentioned before, I was a little shocked, set back, amazed etc. on how the FBI handled this tragedy. I'm kind of reminded of what happened in Waco in 1993.





ADDED: with your permission I would like to put your links in our Link & Video vault.....

« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 03:03:23 PM by shutter »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2014, 09:44:10 AM »
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Welcome to the forum Andy! I look forward to viewing the links you provided. Ron & Pat where the one's who brought the story here. I started looking into the story shortly after they posted. as I mentioned before, I was a little shocked, set back, amazed etc. on how the FBI handled this tragedy. I'm kind of reminded of what happened in Waco in 1993.




Yes, Andy.  Thanks for posting. I hadn't heard that story before.  I was kind of shocked as well.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2014, 04:34:53 PM »
Welcome, Andy, and please accept my condolences on the loss of your father.

I honor your courage in telling your story. The brief description of your encounter with FBI resistance is shocking, but all too common.  E Vicki Wilson gets the same stuff in the pursuit of the truth about her father, Mel Wilson, a suspect in the DB Cooper case. What you are telling us sounds like the FBI we all know and love.

As for obstruction from the FBI in other areas, well, that is sizable as well.  Many of us here are investigating the behavior of the FBI in the Cooper case, so our efforts are parallel to yours.  If you would like to know more about this angle you can read my many stories on Cooper and the FBI at the Mountain News - WA dot net. Or email me at BruceSmith At Rainierconnect Dot com and I will send you my book on the Norjak investigation.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 04:48:39 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline 18C

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 03:16:57 AM »
Condolences from me also Andy. I will read the story in detail when I get the chance mate.
 

Offline 18C

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2014, 03:40:03 AM »
I'm sure most of you have heard the story of Paul Cini before. But it tickled my fancy so I'll put you through it one more time:

Contrary to popular belief, D.B. Cooper was not the first hijacker to come up with the idea of extorting money whilst on board an aircraft with a view to exiting by parachute with the ransom. Though I believe he was the first who managed to exit an aircraft with the money.

Two weeks prior to D.B. Cooper pulling his stunt an extortionist by the name of Paul Cini hijacked an Air Canada flight out of Calgary with a bag containing everything he thought he'd need to pull off the hijacking and then survive in the wilderness after jumping from the plane.

He armed himself with a sawn-off shotgun, dynamite, a sheepskin rope, a collapsible shovel, a pup tent, food bars, hiking boots, and a parachute wrapped in a paper bag. After downing several drinks, he brandished the weapons and announced that he was a member of the Irish Republican Army who would blow up the DC-8 unless he was given $1.5 million and passage to Ireland. The plane landed in Great Falls where Cini received all the cash that Air Canada could muster at short notice. A meagre $50,000.

The DC-8 was en route back to Calgary to refuel when Cini told the crew to open one of the emergency exits so he could jump with the ransom.

Then it all unravelled for Cini. Or rather it didn't. Cini had earlier tied his parachute into a package with rope, and to his embarrassment found he couldn't undo the rope when it came time to use his parachute. Perhaps it had something to do with the booze he consumed?

So the frustrated Cini asked one of the pilots to lend him a sharp instrument to cut the rope and free his parachute. The pilot offered him the aircraft fire axe. Cini put his shotgun down to accept the axe and the pilot kicked away the shotgun and grabbed Cini by the throat. Another member of the crew picked up the axe and hit Cini in the head with it, fracturing his skull.

Cini was sentenced to life in prison in April 1972, though he was paroled after serving 10 years of his sentence.

D.B. Cooper Paul Cini certainly was not  ;D 

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 03:42:27 AM by 18C »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2014, 06:56:23 PM »
Don't forget that a DC-8 is not an ideal jump platform, as the emergency exits are small hatchways mounted on the side of the fuselage. Thus, tail strikes can happen.
 

Offline 18C

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2014, 10:54:55 PM »
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Don't forget that a DC-8 is not an ideal jump platform, as the emergency exits are small hatchways mounted on the side of the fuselage. Thus, tail strikes can happen.

True, and I doubt Paul Cini was ever accused of being the smartest guy in the classroom.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 12:11:57 AM »
Which begs the question: how did he get to be the first to realize the elegance of stealing an airplane for money and parachuting away?

Hence, did someone tell him? Who was that? Did that person tell anyone else???