Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 230684 times)

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3675 on: January 12, 2018, 09:54:00 AM »
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1) Nope
2) Nope.

Longer answer:

As far as I know, the three bundles were placed askew upon each other. The exact angle and a diagram is shown on the Citizen Sleuths website.

As for Tina talking about paper wraps, I've never heard that although lots of people talk about paper wraps. Not sure where they get that info. You?

Reading through the evidence it seems "bundle" and "package" get conflated.

There is confusion because of the term "bundle"...  a bundle in banking terms is the largest collection or group. So, three packages of 100 x $20 bills each rubber banded then banded together = a single bundle.

For context, we need to separate packages and bundle..

package = (100x$20)
bundle = group of packages

Tina did handle the money and claimed they were in "bank-type bands around each package". A bank rep initially claimed the money was banded with bank bands. Georger and Ckret followed up and the bank guy that manipulated the bundles claimed only "rubber bands".. but it depends on the question. He did randomize bundles (groups of packages) using rubber bands.

IMO, initially the money was in 100x$20 bills bank strapped and rubber banded, likely those packages were rubber banded in packages of 5's = 1 bundle ($10000). The bank was asked to randomize the bundles to make it look hastily prepared. They took the bundles and made a random sized bundle of packages, may have been 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 packages of 100 bills ?? I don't think they changed the size of the packages (100 x $20) but just randomized the number of packages in a single bundle.

So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 09:56:18 AM by FLYJACK »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3676 on: January 12, 2018, 01:48:35 PM »
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So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

If the brick of bills (bundles, packs, whatever we call it, the one big brick of money found by the Ingrams) was kept together over time and eroded by abrasion & tide action, the "bank bands" would still be found between the bills upon separation. The money sandwich would go:

$2,000
2 partial bank bands
$2,000
2 partial bank bands
$2,000

None were reported that I can find. I don't believe abrasion and tide action can account for those missing, so either they weren't bank banded or abrasion did not cause the degradation, or both.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3677 on: January 12, 2018, 01:54:00 PM »
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Nope.

In fact, I've never heard the term, "driftwoods," before.

In your interviews with the Ingrams, how did they describe the money to you?

Compass Electronics produced a new two coil D shape metal professional detector widely used in the 1970. Why didn't Palmer or the FBI bring one to Tena Bar?  Metal detectors are widely used in archaeology with the first recorded use by military historian Don Rickey in 1958 who used one to detect the firing lines at Little Big Horn.

1. I've only spoken to Brian. He told me that the rubber bands were intact and crumbled when he handled the money. As I recall, he said the three bundles were found "together." Their angle of placement I got from Tom Kaye and the Citizen Sleuths.

2. On metal detectors - who used them, when, where, why - I have no direct knowledge. Why do you ask?

One of the agents excavating described how when they were raking they uncovered what at first appeared as a 'piece of driftwood' - but on examination it turned out to be a soft 'fist sized' clump of rotted money. This has been referenced before. As here:

"One article states that the money "looked like a piece of driftwood" - and had young Ingram offering it up to Dad as firewood before they realized what it was. Another article addresses further searches in the area found fragments and an FBI agent says he found a "fist-size clump of wadded up $20 bills" that appeared like driftwood." (Smokin99 DZ)

Lots of people were seeing lots of driftwoods. Little driftwoods and bigger driftwoods. All planted like seeds on the beach. Perhaps directed by the Cooper Cartel with Farmer's Almanac in hand.  ;)

Good input, Georger. Can you tell if the two agents above, one in each of your paragraphs, are the same agent or two separate agents? You got names? And can you post links or pics?

The wording "three little driftwoods tumbled up" that I referenced came directly from Episode 1 of the Case Closed special on History Channel. Dwayne says it on camera.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3678 on: January 12, 2018, 02:03:26 PM »
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So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

If the brick of bills (bundles, packs, whatever we call it, the one big brick of money found by the Ingrams) was kept together over time and eroded by abrasion & tide action, the "bank bands" would still be found between the bills upon separation. The money sandwich would go:

$2,000
2 partial bank bands
$2,000
2 partial bank bands
$2,000

None were reported that I can find. I don't believe abrasion and tide action can account for those missing, so either they weren't bank banded or abrasion did not cause the degradation, or both.

Not necessarily, bank band paper is not as robust as note paper.. they may have deteriorated very quickly in a wet environment. No evidence of bank bands doesn't mean they weren't there initially.

I'd imagine, the rubber band(s) holding the (3) packages in a bundle broke/deteriorated relatively soon, the 3 bundles separated slightly and continued to deteriorate.

 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3679 on: January 12, 2018, 03:04:35 PM »
I recently opened a reserve chute that had been last packed in 1974. It was stored in a plastic bag and not exposed to UV or temp extremes. Some of the rubber bands used to stow the suspension lines were perfect, still supple and elastic. Others were very sticky, with checked surfaces and were decomposing, easily broken with low force. Different compositions perhaps?

377
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3680 on: January 12, 2018, 03:05:25 PM »
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1) Nope
2) Nope.

Longer answer:

As far as I know, the three bundles were placed askew upon each other. The exact angle and a diagram is shown on the Citizen Sleuths website.

As for Tina talking about paper wraps, I've never heard that although lots of people talk about paper wraps. Not sure where they get that info. You?

Reading through the evidence it seems "bundle" and "package" get conflated.

There is confusion because of the term "bundle"...  a bundle in banking terms is the largest collection or group. So, three packages of 100 x $20 bills each rubber banded then banded together = a single bundle.

For context, we need to separate packages and bundle..

package = (100x$20)
bundle = group of packages

Tina did handle the money and claimed they were in "bank-type bands around each package". A bank rep initially claimed the money was banded with bank bands. Georger and Ckret followed up and the bank guy that manipulated the bundles claimed only "rubber bands".. but it depends on the question. He did randomize bundles (groups of packages) using rubber bands.

IMO, initially the money was in 100x$20 bills bank strapped and rubber banded, likely those packages were rubber banded in packages of 5's = 1 bundle ($10000). The bank was asked to randomize the bundles to make it look hastily prepared. They took the bundles and made a random sized bundle of packages, may have been 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 packages of 100 bills ?? I don't think they changed the size of the packages (100 x $20) but just randomized the number of packages in a single bundle.

So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

We had to check paper vs rubber bands with all of the original people, because of the conflicting reports/claims. Took some time but we got separate testimony from a. the bank employee that assembled the bundles, b. all of the Ingrams in separate testimony (Brian, mother, Harold, etc), c. several other agents/bank officials ...  all said rubber bands. Not paper bands. Remember, the money had to be broken down to individual bills at the bank then recorded and reassembled into random bundles. The decision to reassemble into random groups/bundles was conscious. The bundles were secured using two or more RUBBER bands per bundle. Thats the testimony we got. I got to talk to Brian's mother and Dwyane/Harold personally ...

"but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years.."  That's what the evidence suggests. The FBI Lab concluded the found money was still in the same serial number order as when given to Cooper. The Ingrams had partially disassembled the original find, through trying to dry the money out on their kitchen table and trying to clean some of the money so they could present it to a bank for redemption. Redeeming the money at a bank was their original goal. The Ingrams simply piled everything into a shoe box in no particular order when they were suddenly confronted with turning the money over to Himmelsbach at the Portland FBI. They did withhold a few bills for themselves as souvenirs, but that leaked out and they delivered those bills later via Crystal Ingram. But, the Lab determined that all of the bills within all of the groups the Ingrams turned over was still in bank-assembly order as given to Cooper.

How were the bundles assembled in the bag given to Cooper? An estimate of that was made. However, Cooper disturbed that order when he transferred all of the contents of the bag into another container (on the plane) then changed his mind and dumped everything back into the original bank bag and was seen tying that bag off prior to Tina being sent forward.

Those are the scenarios I have.

ps: paper strap paper is not bank note paper - the strap paper used for wrapping money would dissolve very quickly.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:19:22 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3681 on: January 12, 2018, 03:07:37 PM »
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I recently opened a reserve chute that had been last packed in 1974. It was stored in a plastic bag and not exposed to UV or temp extremes. Some of the rubber bands used to stow the suspension lines were perfect, still supple and elastic. Others were very sticky, with checked surfaces and were decomposing, easily broken with low force. Different compositions perhaps?

377

Valuable description! Note some were sticky. In technical terms the sticky bands were in the "melt transition" phase. I have been using that term in my posts about bands since 2008. So here it is again ... actual band chemistry at work.

ps: polymers and similar sticky substances in the melt transition phase are very interesting forensically - think about it and then think about what they offer once hardened!  ;D   
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:24:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3682 on: January 12, 2018, 03:09:27 PM »
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Nope.

In fact, I've never heard the term, "driftwoods," before.

In your interviews with the Ingrams, how did they describe the money to you?

Compass Electronics produced a new two coil D shape metal professional detector widely used in the 1970. Why didn't Palmer or the FBI bring one to Tena Bar?  Metal detectors are widely used in archaeology with the first recorded use by military historian Don Rickey in 1958 who used one to detect the firing lines at Little Big Horn.

1. I've only spoken to Brian. He told me that the rubber bands were intact and crumbled when he handled the money. As I recall, he said the three bundles were found "together." Their angle of placement I got from Tom Kaye and the Citizen Sleuths.

2. On metal detectors - who used them, when, where, why - I have no direct knowledge. Why do you ask?

One of the agents excavating described how when they were raking they uncovered what at first appeared as a 'piece of driftwood' - but on examination it turned out to be a soft 'fist sized' clump of rotted money. This has been referenced before. As here:

"One article states that the money "looked like a piece of driftwood" - and had young Ingram offering it up to Dad as firewood before they realized what it was. Another article addresses further searches in the area found fragments and an FBI agent says he found a "fist-size clump of wadded up $20 bills" that appeared like driftwood." (Smokin99 DZ)

Lots of people were seeing lots of driftwoods. Little driftwoods and bigger driftwoods. All planted like seeds on the beach. Perhaps directed by the Cooper Cartel with Farmer's Almanac in hand.  ;)

Good input, Georger. Can you tell if the two agents above, one in each of your paragraphs, are the same agent or two separate agents? You got names? And can you post links or pics?

The wording "three little driftwoods tumbled up" that I referenced came directly from Episode 1 of the Case Closed special on History Channel. Dwayne says it on camera.

The "driftwood" description originally came from Harold Ingram..
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3683 on: January 12, 2018, 03:11:41 PM »
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Nope.

In fact, I've never heard the term, "driftwoods," before.

In your interviews with the Ingrams, how did they describe the money to you?

Compass Electronics produced a new two coil D shape metal professional detector widely used in the 1970. Why didn't Palmer or the FBI bring one to Tena Bar?  Metal detectors are widely used in archaeology with the first recorded use by military historian Don Rickey in 1958 who used one to detect the firing lines at Little Big Horn.

1. I've only spoken to Brian. He told me that the rubber bands were intact and crumbled when he handled the money. As I recall, he said the three bundles were found "together." Their angle of placement I got from Tom Kaye and the Citizen Sleuths.

2. On metal detectors - who used them, when, where, why - I have no direct knowledge. Why do you ask?

One of the agents excavating described how when they were raking they uncovered what at first appeared as a 'piece of driftwood' - but on examination it turned out to be a soft 'fist sized' clump of rotted money. This has been referenced before. As here:

"One article states that the money "looked like a piece of driftwood" - and had young Ingram offering it up to Dad as firewood before they realized what it was. Another article addresses further searches in the area found fragments and an FBI agent says he found a "fist-size clump of wadded up $20 bills" that appeared like driftwood." (Smokin99 DZ)

Lots of people were seeing lots of driftwoods. Little driftwoods and bigger driftwoods. All planted like seeds on the beach. Perhaps directed by the Cooper Cartel with Farmer's Almanac in hand.  ;)

Good input, Georger. Can you tell if the two agents above, one in each of your paragraphs, are the same agent or two separate agents? You got names? And can you post links or pics?

The wording "three little driftwoods tumbled up" that I referenced came directly from Episode 1 of the Case Closed special on History Channel. Dwayne says it on camera.

The "driftwood" description originally came from Harold Ingram..

I know.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3684 on: January 12, 2018, 03:20:36 PM »
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1) Nope
2) Nope.

Longer answer:

As far as I know, the three bundles were placed askew upon each other. The exact angle and a diagram is shown on the Citizen Sleuths website.

As for Tina talking about paper wraps, I've never heard that although lots of people talk about paper wraps. Not sure where they get that info. You?

Reading through the evidence it seems "bundle" and "package" get conflated.

There is confusion because of the term "bundle"...  a bundle in banking terms is the largest collection or group. So, three packages of 100 x $20 bills each rubber banded then banded together = a single bundle.

For context, we need to separate packages and bundle..

package = (100x$20)
bundle = group of packages

Tina did handle the money and claimed they were in "bank-type bands around each package". A bank rep initially claimed the money was banded with bank bands. Georger and Ckret followed up and the bank guy that manipulated the bundles claimed only "rubber bands".. but it depends on the question. He did randomize bundles (groups of packages) using rubber bands.

IMO, initially the money was in 100x$20 bills bank strapped and rubber banded, likely those packages were rubber banded in packages of 5's = 1 bundle ($10000). The bank was asked to randomize the bundles to make it look hastily prepared. They took the bundles and made a random sized bundle of packages, may have been 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 packages of 100 bills ?? I don't think they changed the size of the packages (100 x $20) but just randomized the number of packages in a single bundle.

So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

We had to check paper vs rubber bands with all of the original people, because of the conflicting reports/claims. Took some time but we got separate testimony from a. the bank employee that assembled the bundles, b. all of the Ingrams in separate testimony (Brian, mother, Harold, etc), c. several other agents/bank officials ...  all said rubber bands. Not paper bands. Remember, the money had to be broken down to individual bills at the bank then recorded and reassembled into random bundles. The decision to reassemble into random groups/bundles was conscious. The bundles were secured using two or more RUBBER bands per bundle. Thats the testimony we got. I got to talk to Brian's mother and Dwyane/Harold personally ...

 


This is unclear, my understanding is that circulated money was run through a Recordak well before the hijacking.. it was put in packages of 100 x $20 then grouped into a bundle, probably 5 per.

For the hijacking the bundles were made random, not the packages, they weren't opened. Rubber banded bundles were made of random numbers of packages.

IMO, the packages may have been bank banded after the Recordak.. the randomization event only applied to the number of packages in a bundle.


 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3685 on: January 12, 2018, 03:31:53 PM »
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1) Nope
2) Nope.

Longer answer:

As far as I know, the three bundles were placed askew upon each other. The exact angle and a diagram is shown on the Citizen Sleuths website.

As for Tina talking about paper wraps, I've never heard that although lots of people talk about paper wraps. Not sure where they get that info. You?

Reading through the evidence it seems "bundle" and "package" get conflated.

There is confusion because of the term "bundle"...  a bundle in banking terms is the largest collection or group. So, three packages of 100 x $20 bills each rubber banded then banded together = a single bundle.

For context, we need to separate packages and bundle..

package = (100x$20)
bundle = group of packages

Tina did handle the money and claimed they were in "bank-type bands around each package". A bank rep initially claimed the money was banded with bank bands. Georger and Ckret followed up and the bank guy that manipulated the bundles claimed only "rubber bands".. but it depends on the question. He did randomize bundles (groups of packages) using rubber bands.

IMO, initially the money was in 100x$20 bills bank strapped and rubber banded, likely those packages were rubber banded in packages of 5's = 1 bundle ($10000). The bank was asked to randomize the bundles to make it look hastily prepared. They took the bundles and made a random sized bundle of packages, may have been 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 packages of 100 bills ?? I don't think they changed the size of the packages (100 x $20) but just randomized the number of packages in a single bundle.

So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

We had to check paper vs rubber bands with all of the original people, because of the conflicting reports/claims. Took some time but we got separate testimony from a. the bank employee that assembled the bundles, b. all of the Ingrams in separate testimony (Brian, mother, Harold, etc), c. several other agents/bank officials ...  all said rubber bands. Not paper bands. Remember, the money had to be broken down to individual bills at the bank then recorded and reassembled into random bundles. The decision to reassemble into random groups/bundles was conscious. The bundles were secured using two or more RUBBER bands per bundle. Thats the testimony we got. I got to talk to Brian's mother and Dwyane/Harold personally ...

 


This is unclear, my understanding is that circulated money was run through a Recordak well before the hijacking.. it was put in packages of 100 x $20 then grouped into a bundle, probably 5 per.

For the hijacking the bundles were made random, not the packages, they weren't opened. Rubber banded bundles were made of random numbers of packages.

IMO, the packages may have been bank banded after the Recordak.. the randomization event only applied to the number of packages in a bundle.

OK. I will go back to my notes but as you say    "For the hijacking the bundles were made randomised". However the guy that Larry talked to said something like: 'well maybe x number of bills per bundle ... we were in a mad rush  ...' etc. But rubber bands is what the guy used and ghosts of rubber bands is what the Ingrams saw.

all of the above subject to scrutiny in newly released FBI files or from some other source!     
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:35:55 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3686 on: January 12, 2018, 03:44:58 PM »
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1) Nope
2) Nope.

Longer answer:

As far as I know, the three bundles were placed askew upon each other. The exact angle and a diagram is shown on the Citizen Sleuths website.

As for Tina talking about paper wraps, I've never heard that although lots of people talk about paper wraps. Not sure where they get that info. You?

Reading through the evidence it seems "bundle" and "package" get conflated.

There is confusion because of the term "bundle"...  a bundle in banking terms is the largest collection or group. So, three packages of 100 x $20 bills each rubber banded then banded together = a single bundle.

For context, we need to separate packages and bundle..

package = (100x$20)
bundle = group of packages

Tina did handle the money and claimed they were in "bank-type bands around each package". A bank rep initially claimed the money was banded with bank bands. Georger and Ckret followed up and the bank guy that manipulated the bundles claimed only "rubber bands".. but it depends on the question. He did randomize bundles (groups of packages) using rubber bands.

IMO, initially the money was in 100x$20 bills bank strapped and rubber banded, likely those packages were rubber banded in packages of 5's = 1 bundle ($10000). The bank was asked to randomize the bundles to make it look hastily prepared. They took the bundles and made a random sized bundle of packages, may have been 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 packages of 100 bills ?? I don't think they changed the size of the packages (100 x $20) but just randomized the number of packages in a single bundle.

So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

We had to check paper vs rubber bands with all of the original people, because of the conflicting reports/claims. Took some time but we got separate testimony from a. the bank employee that assembled the bundles, b. all of the Ingrams in separate testimony (Brian, mother, Harold, etc), c. several other agents/bank officials ...  all said rubber bands. Not paper bands. Remember, the money had to be broken down to individual bills at the bank then recorded and reassembled into random bundles. The decision to reassemble into random groups/bundles was conscious. The bundles were secured using two or more RUBBER bands per bundle. Thats the testimony we got. I got to talk to Brian's mother and Dwyane/Harold personally ...

 


This is unclear, my understanding is that circulated money was run through a Recordak well before the hijacking.. it was put in packages of 100 x $20 then grouped into a bundle, probably 5 per.

For the hijacking the bundles were made random, not the packages, they weren't opened. Rubber banded bundles were made of random numbers of packages.

IMO, the packages may have been bank banded after the Recordak.. the randomization event only applied to the number of packages in a bundle.

I think one danger in all of this is WHOSE REPORT(S) you use. There were without question people reporting on these matters who did not have the full facts. This is why Larry finally found and talked to the guy who assembled the bundles given to Cooper, personally. And I talked to the people individually who were there at T_Bar who saw the money when it was found and came out of the ground .... etc.

This story was cooked by numerous chief chefs and cooks and helpers! 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:51:03 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3687 on: January 12, 2018, 03:50:54 PM »
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Not necessarily, bank band paper is not as robust as note paper.. they may have deteriorated very quickly in a wet environment. No evidence of bank bands doesn't mean they weren't there initially.
I'd imagine, the rubber band(s) holding the (3) packages in a bundle broke/deteriorated relatively soon, the 3 bundles separated slightly and continued to deteriorate.

Okay, please expand on that, because I probably am not following. What you had said referenced two methods: 1) Abrasion and 2) water/tide action. Both are physical actions, ie. matter rubbing against matter.  The bands inside the stacks would have been protected from this exactly as the portraits of Andrew Jackson were, regardless of the strength of the paper. 

Did you mean to suggest chemical or biological breakdown?
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3688 on: January 12, 2018, 05:56:25 PM »
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1) Nope
2) Nope.

Longer answer:

As far as I know, the three bundles were placed askew upon each other. The exact angle and a diagram is shown on the Citizen Sleuths website.

As for Tina talking about paper wraps, I've never heard that although lots of people talk about paper wraps. Not sure where they get that info. You?

Reading through the evidence it seems "bundle" and "package" get conflated.

There is confusion because of the term "bundle"...  a bundle in banking terms is the largest collection or group. So, three packages of 100 x $20 bills each rubber banded then banded together = a single bundle.

For context, we need to separate packages and bundle..

package = (100x$20)
bundle = group of packages

Tina did handle the money and claimed they were in "bank-type bands around each package". A bank rep initially claimed the money was banded with bank bands. Georger and Ckret followed up and the bank guy that manipulated the bundles claimed only "rubber bands".. but it depends on the question. He did randomize bundles (groups of packages) using rubber bands.

IMO, initially the money was in 100x$20 bills bank strapped and rubber banded, likely those packages were rubber banded in packages of 5's = 1 bundle ($10000). The bank was asked to randomize the bundles to make it look hastily prepared. They took the bundles and made a random sized bundle of packages, may have been 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 packages of 100 bills ?? I don't think they changed the size of the packages (100 x $20) but just randomized the number of packages in a single bundle.

So, TBAR may have started as a single rubber banded bundle of three (or more) bank banded and rubber banded packages of (100 x $20). They could have landed on TBAR as one "bundle".. Bank bands rotted away and rubber bands deteriorated..

Others don't believe that there weren't any bank bands at all and only rubber bands but Tina held the money in her hands and claimed there were "bank-style bands around each package" and the initial bank communication claimed they were also bank banded.. I believe there was both. The bundle randomizing was done with rubber bands... but the packages (100x$20) were bank banded and rubber banded.

Like most things in this case, there is conflicting information.

but it is reasonable to infer that the money landed at TBAR intact in its original bundle form and IMO the found condition is consistent with sand abrasion and tide/water action over many years..

We had to check paper vs rubber bands with all of the original people, because of the conflicting reports/claims. Took some time but we got separate testimony from a. the bank employee that assembled the bundles, b. all of the Ingrams in separate testimony (Brian, mother, Harold, etc), c. several other agents/bank officials ...  all said rubber bands. Not paper bands. Remember, the money had to be broken down to individual bills at the bank then recorded and reassembled into random bundles. The decision to reassemble into random groups/bundles was conscious. The bundles were secured using two or more RUBBER bands per bundle. Thats the testimony we got. I got to talk to Brian's mother and Dwyane/Harold personally ...

 


This is unclear, my understanding is that circulated money was run through a Recordak well before the hijacking.. it was put in packages of 100 x $20 then grouped into a bundle, probably 5 per.

For the hijacking the bundles were made random, not the packages, they weren't opened. Rubber banded bundles were made of random numbers of packages.

IMO, the packages may have been bank banded after the Recordak.. the randomization event only applied to the number of packages in a bundle.

I think one danger in all of this is WHOSE REPORT(S) you use. There were without question people reporting on these matters who did not have the full facts. This is why Larry finally found and talked to the guy who assembled the bundles given to Cooper, personally. And I talked to the people individually who were there at T_Bar who saw the money when it was found and came out of the ground .... etc.

This story was cooked by numerous chief chefs and cooks and helpers!

I agree, there were only fragments of rubber bands found...

The bank guy claimed rubber bands, but we don't have the context or question to him, he did randomize the bundles using rubber bands. But what about the packages?

Tina handled and claimed bank-style bands around the packages. Early correspondence from the bank claimed bank bands in packages of 100.. conflicting info.. like everything in this case.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3689 on: January 12, 2018, 06:11:55 PM »
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Not necessarily, bank band paper is not as robust as note paper.. they may have deteriorated very quickly in a wet environment. No evidence of bank bands doesn't mean they weren't there initially.
I'd imagine, the rubber band(s) holding the (3) packages in a bundle broke/deteriorated relatively soon, the 3 bundles separated slightly and continued to deteriorate.

Okay, please expand on that, because I probably am not following. What you had said referenced two methods: 1) Abrasion and 2) water/tide action. Both are physical actions, ie. matter rubbing against matter.  The bands inside the stacks would have been protected from this exactly as the portraits of Andrew Jackson were, regardless of the strength of the paper. 

Did you mean to suggest chemical or biological breakdown?

I was referring to the condition of the bills...  they are consistent with sand abrasion and tidal/water action over some time.