Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1199900 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5670 on: September 29, 2020, 01:02:13 PM »
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There are plenty examples of people jumping with loads of equipment and not spinning out of control...smokejumpers, military personnel, even Sheridan Peterson brags about jumping with a 50 lbs. bag of flour back in the 60's.

One way that my thoughts have changed over the years relates to when DBC pulled the ripcord. I tend to agree with 377 now in that I think it is likely that DBC pulled the ripcord either from the airstairs or immediately after jumping, in part because of the load he was carrying. This means he had plenty of time to surveillance the area and probably drifted a couple of miles to the northeast.

The biggest problems I have with the no-pull theory are: First, why was nothing of his body, the attache' case, bulk of the cash or parachutes ever found? Second, how did three packets of twenties end up buried by each other on Tena Bar?
Yes, it IS possible to jump asymmetrically, but you have to be an experienced skydiver to do it. So, yes, for Cooper to jump and land alive he would most likely have to be experienced at that sort of jump.

To your last point, there are any number of possibilities for why nothing else of Cooper was found on the ground. As far as the Tena Bar question...well, you have 378 pages of people asking the same question LOL

One question I have had:  would the oscillations or "bump" felt by the crew at the assumed jump point have felt differently if he actually jumped out or if he pulled the ripcord on the stairs and got pulled out? I wonder if it would be possible to replicate?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5671 on: September 29, 2020, 01:03:05 PM »
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There are plenty examples of people jumping with loads of equipment and not spinning out of control...smokejumpers, military personnel, even Sheridan Peterson brags about jumping with a 50 lbs. bag of flour back in the 60's.

One way that my thoughts have changed over the years relates to when DBC pulled the ripcord. I tend to agree with 377 now in that I think it is likely that DBC pulled the ripcord either from the airstairs or immediately after jumping, in part because of the load he was carrying. This means he had plenty of time to surveillance the area and probably drifted a couple of miles to the northeast.

The biggest problems I have with the no-pull theory are: First, why was nothing of his body, the attache' case, bulk of the cash or parachutes ever found? Second, how did three packets of twenties end up buried by each other on Tena Bar?

377 has previously posted on his recent experiences with a very small asymmetrical load in daylight jumps.  With a small radio tied to one leg, 377 had to make adjustments to keep from tumbling/spinning.  And all of this was with a modern square canopy where the reserve is also on the back.

The reason nothing attached to Cooper has been found, except the money at Tina Bar, is because the initial searchers didn't look in he right places.

If the original searchers couldn't find Cooper in the area where he was supposed to be, then they should have searched the areas where he could not possibly be and there they would have found him. 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5672 on: September 29, 2020, 01:07:07 PM »
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There are plenty examples of people jumping with loads of equipment and not spinning out of control...smokejumpers, military personnel, even Sheridan Peterson brags about jumping with a 50 lbs. bag of flour back in the 60's.

One way that my thoughts have changed over the years relates to when DBC pulled the ripcord. I tend to agree with 377 now in that I think it is likely that DBC pulled the ripcord either from the airstairs or immediately after jumping, in part because of the load he was carrying. This means he had plenty of time to surveillance the area and probably drifted a couple of miles to the northeast.

The biggest problems I have with the no-pull theory are: First, why was nothing of his body, the attache' case, bulk of the cash or parachutes ever found? Second, how did three packets of twenties end up buried by each other on Tena Bar?
Yes, it IS possible to jump asymmetrically, but you have to be an experienced skydiver to do it. So, yes, for Cooper to jump and land alive he would most likely have to be experienced at that sort of jump.

To your last point, there are any number of possibilities for why nothing else of Cooper was found on the ground. As far as the Tena Bar question...well, you have 378 pages of people asking the same question LOL

One question I have had:  would the oscillations or "bump" felt by the crew at the assumed jump point have felt differently if he actually jumped out or if he pulled the ripcord on the stairs and got pulled out? I wonder if it would be possible to replicate?

Just removing the weight is what caused the bump.  And the FBI did replicate this in early 1972 by sliding heavy boxes down the aft stairs of the very same aircraft that was hijacked.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5673 on: September 29, 2020, 01:29:30 PM »
I'm aware that the FBI replicated the bump by dropped a weight off the back. That wasn't my question. Would there be a difference in the bump based on if Cooper leapt face-foreward off the stairs versus standing backwards on the stairs and pulling the ripcord and being pulled off. I'm not sure there is any way to answer this question.
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5674 on: September 29, 2020, 01:34:14 PM »
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I'm aware that the FBI replicated the bump by dropped a weight off the back. That wasn't my question. Would there be a difference in the bump based on if Cooper leapt face-foreward off the stairs versus standing backwards on the stairs and pulling the ripcord and being pulled off. I'm not sure there is any way to answer this question.

I don't know why there would be a difference. After all, the rebounding of the airstairs is simply caused by Cooper's weight suddenly being gone.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5675 on: September 29, 2020, 01:35:58 PM »
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I'm aware that the FBI replicated the bump by dropped a weight off the back. That wasn't my question. Would there be a difference in the bump based on if Cooper leapt face-foreward off the stairs versus standing backwards on the stairs and pulling the ripcord and being pulled off. I'm not sure there is any way to answer this question.

I don't know why there would be a difference. After all, the rebounding of the airstairs is simply caused by Cooper's weight suddenly being gone.
I'm thinking the difference would be similar to jumping off of a diving board and falling backwards off of one. I'm fully prepared to be wrong about that. Just speculating.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5676 on: September 29, 2020, 01:36:33 PM »
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I'm aware that the FBI replicated the bump by dropped a weight off the back. That wasn't my question. Would there be a difference in the bump based on if Cooper leapt face-foreward off the stairs versus standing backwards on the stairs and pulling the ripcord and being pulled off. I'm not sure there is any way to answer this question.

The answer to your question is "no".
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5677 on: September 29, 2020, 06:49:18 PM »
In no particular order...

It seems a lot of people studying this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known. Sure one must speculate possibilities and likelihoods, but...

---

Reserve containers - R99 confirms that some of those containers used cones rather than closing loops. That complicates re-closing the container. As I remember, the holes in those cones weren't very big, might be difficult or impossible to thread lines through them to tie the container shut. If the real one had cones and the dummy had closing loops, that would be a reason to switch. I would guess that they would use closing loops on the dummy for ease of repacking. Yes, pilot chutes have springs, but no, those reserves would not have pilot chutes, as they used the hand-deploy method of reserve deployment. If half the canopy was removed on the dummy, it would indeed be softer when packed as there is less bulk/density in it. My guess, though, would be that if he used the container he might have removed the canopy. If he left that on the plane, it could easily have been blown out the door at any time.

---

The 'pressure bump' on exit - Eric has the right idea about that. The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Even the largest commonly used jump planes, DC-3's then and Twin Otters now, are much smaller and less powerful than that jet, and you just do not feel it when people exit. Go to a drop zone and take an observer ride. It's not like you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when someone launches a triple-lindy off of it. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

---

Pulling off of the stairs vs. jumping - I personally wouldn't like that idea, but I'm experienced and know the problems that might cause. But other people, including 377, have suggested that possibility and that may be what Cooper did. I wrote a more detailed piece about that on dropzone the other day. I also wrote a piece there about 'dangling' the load vs. tying it on securely.

---

Jumping with stuff attached - First, I don't think that a spinning, tumbling, out-of-control freefall necessarily results in a no-pull. If Cooper's got the nerve to pull off the hijacking, I'm guessing that he has the presence of mind to pull. One puts the rig on and familiarizes one's self where the ripcord handle is. However out of control one may be, the handle is still in the same spot. I've seen people pull in some pretty f-ed up positions, and they get open. - I think all smoke jumps, and many military jumps with loads are static-line, so no freefall issues there. But many military 'loaded' jumps are freefall. And look at modern sport tandem jumps. We jump with people(!) attached to us. A lot of them are 230lb beer-drinking lunkheads. Many of them do not perform to their training. Some of them are downright uncooperative, kicking, flailing, going fetal or 'catman'. And we pull it off, it's not that hard. But yes, we're experienced and know how to handle it. Freefall stability really isn't that hard, but it can be subtly tricky to learn. It's kind of like learning to ride a bicycle - it can be difficult and wobbly at first, but once one 'gets' it, it's pretty intuitive. So if Cooper is experienced, it's fairly easy. If he's not, well like anything, some people take to it easier than others, so it may or may not be a problem. My educated guess is that it's way more likely than not that Cooper survives the jump. Whether he's injured on landing, and that hampers his egress, that's another issue...
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5678 on: September 29, 2020, 09:36:31 PM »
Quote
My guess, though, would be that if he used the container he might have removed the canopy. If he left that on the plane, it could easily have been blown out the door at any time.

The only way it would get out of the plane would be on the stairs..hardly any wind comes in through the back. the testing showed that.

according to some he could of tied the briefcase and got that to the ground but somehow couldn't figure out how to get the bag to the ground? for all anyone knows he could of put money in his pockets. still doesn't make it show up on a beach..
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 09:38:05 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5679 on: September 29, 2020, 09:49:15 PM »
DUDEMAN17:

Reserve containers - R99 confirms that some of those containers used cones rather than closing loops. That complicates re-closing the container. As I remember, the holes in those cones weren't very big, might be difficult or impossible to thread lines through them to tie the container shut. If the real one had cones and the dummy had closing loops, that would be a reason to switch. I would guess that they would use closing loops on the dummy for ease of repacking. Yes, pilot chutes have springs, but no, those reserves would not have pilot chutes, as they used the hand-deploy method of reserve deployment. If half the canopy was removed on the dummy, it would indeed be softer when packed as there is less bulk/density in it. My guess, though, would be that if he used the container he might have removed the canopy. If he left that on the plane, it could easily have been blown out the door at any time.

ROBERT99 REPLIES:

I have never heard of or seen "closing loops" (whatever they are) on any military backpack or reserve.  All of the military reserves and backpacks that I saw in the 1960s and 1970s used cones and the reserves had cable ripcords and handles similar to the ripcords for the backpacks.  And yes, both the backpacks and reserves were hard to close and to insert the ripcords.

During the FBI drop tests, FBI agents who were seated in the very rear of the cabin stated that they had loose papers on the meal fold down desks and that those papers were not affected by any wind.  That is, no wind in the last rows of the cabin to blow the missing reserve out.

The "pressure bump" was the result of the aft stairs hitting the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  Exactly the same thing happened with the sled drops during the FBI tests according to Harald Anderson who was the flight engineer (as well as being a pilot) on the hijacked airline and on the FBI tests.

377 has posted previously about the change in sounds when skydivers jumped from the rear of a DC-9 (which had the aft stairs removed).  That is, he could tell when someone jumped just by the change in sound as they passed through the aft stairs opening.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 09:52:42 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5680 on: September 30, 2020, 12:55:42 AM »
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In no particular order...

It seems a lot of people studying this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known. Sure one must speculate possibilities and likelihoods, but...

---

Reserve containers - R99 confirms that some of those containers used cones rather than closing loops. That complicates re-closing the container. As I remember, the holes in those cones weren't very big, might be difficult or impossible to thread lines through them to tie the container shut. If the real one had cones and the dummy had closing loops, that would be a reason to switch. I would guess that they would use closing loops on the dummy for ease of repacking. Yes, pilot chutes have springs, but no, those reserves would not have pilot chutes, as they used the hand-deploy method of reserve deployment. If half the canopy was removed on the dummy, it would indeed be softer when packed as there is less bulk/density in it. My guess, though, would be that if he used the container he might have removed the canopy. If he left that on the plane, it could easily have been blown out the door at any time.

---

The 'pressure bump' on exit - Eric has the right idea about that. The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Even the largest commonly used jump planes, DC-3's then and Twin Otters now, are much smaller and less powerful than that jet, and you just do not feel it when people exit. Go to a drop zone and take an observer ride. It's not like you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when someone launches a triple-lindy off of it. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

---

Pulling off of the stairs vs. jumping - I personally wouldn't like that idea, but I'm experienced and know the problems that might cause. But other people, including 377, have suggested that possibility and that may be what Cooper did. I wrote a more detailed piece about that on dropzone the other day. I also wrote a piece there about 'dangling' the load vs. tying it on securely.

---

Jumping with stuff attached - First, I don't think that a spinning, tumbling, out-of-control freefall necessarily results in a no-pull. If Cooper's got the nerve to pull off the hijacking, I'm guessing that he has the presence of mind to pull. One puts the rig on and familiarizes one's self where the ripcord handle is. However out of control one may be, the handle is still in the same spot. I've seen people pull in some pretty f-ed up positions, and they get open. - I think all smoke jumps, and many military jumps with loads are static-line, so no freefall issues there. But many military 'loaded' jumps are freefall. And look at modern sport tandem jumps. We jump with people(!) attached to us. A lot of them are 230lb beer-drinking lunkheads. Many of them do not perform to their training. Some of them are downright uncooperative, kicking, flailing, going fetal or 'catman'. And we pull it off, it's not that hard. But yes, we're experienced and know how to handle it. Freefall stability really isn't that hard, but it can be subtly tricky to learn. It's kind of like learning to ride a bicycle - it can be difficult and wobbly at first, but once one 'gets' it, it's pretty intuitive. So if Cooper is experienced, it's fairly easy. If he's not, well like anything, some people take to it easier than others, so it may or may not be a problem. My educated guess is that it's way more likely than not that Cooper survives the jump. Whether he's injured on landing, and that hampers his egress, that's another issue...

Dudeman: The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

R99: The "pressure bump" was the result of the aft stairs hitting the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  Exactly the same thing happened with the sled drops during the FBI tests according to Harald Anderson who was the flight engineer (as well as being a pilot) on the hijacked airline and on the FBI tests.


The issue is: oscillations vs bump. Carr raised the issue years ago at DZ, asking is there a difference. The TAG team and Anderson tested for these effects during the test flight, as R99 notes. R99 calls it a "pressure bump" because the BUMP was attributed to an abrupt pressure change due to the sudden closing of the stairs after Cooper's weight was suddenly off the stairs and the stairs recoiled closing the hole - Bernoulli effect. Anderson was on the test flight and confirmed the closing of the hole caused a "pressure spike" or bump he experienced. The timing and location of 305 when that bump occurred is what NWA and others used to try and identify the drop zone.

Rataczak said the "bump" was also associated with a change in the plane's trim (change in nose elevation) which he experienced at the time the bump occurred.

So apparently both aerodynamic forces and pressure effects were involved.

Im not sure "oscillations" were ever resolved with any certainty. Dudeman brings up aerodynamic forces vs pressure effects. Maybe the oscillations were aerodynamic or pressure, or both! ?  But the "bump" was confirmed during the test flight and used to define the point when Cooper left the stairs. That association was passed on to the FBI by the TAG team and NWA engineers and used to develop a search zone map, sent the FBI by NWA .... all of this history confirmed in many FOIA 302's on the subject.

* There has always been high confidence that the bump has a direct cause-and-effect relationship to Cooper leaving the stairs. After a massive amount of searching by various groups in 1972 and nothing turning up, the search theory based on the "bump" began to be questioned; as 302 history reveals. Carr brings the issue to Dropzone in 2008 realising this is still a central issue! BETTER LATE THAN NEVER.  :D  302s show that by the end of 1972 Washington had had enough of this stalemate and ordered a review! I documented that if anyone was listening! .... for example, 302s document a large search for Cooper occurred in Nevada even before the massive searching in Washington State IN 1972! Ground and air! . . .     


 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 01:44:13 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5681 on: September 30, 2020, 01:43:03 AM »
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In no particular order...

It seems a lot of people studying this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known. Sure one must speculate possibilities and likelihoods, but...

---

Reserve containers - R99 confirms that some of those containers used cones rather than closing loops. That complicates re-closing the container. As I remember, the holes in those cones weren't very big, might be difficult or impossible to thread lines through them to tie the container shut. If the real one had cones and the dummy had closing loops, that would be a reason to switch. I would guess that they would use closing loops on the dummy for ease of repacking. Yes, pilot chutes have springs, but no, those reserves would not have pilot chutes, as they used the hand-deploy method of reserve deployment. If half the canopy was removed on the dummy, it would indeed be softer when packed as there is less bulk/density in it. My guess, though, would be that if he used the container he might have removed the canopy. If he left that on the plane, it could easily have been blown out the door at any time.

---

The 'pressure bump' on exit - Eric has the right idea about that. The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Even the largest commonly used jump planes, DC-3's then and Twin Otters now, are much smaller and less powerful than that jet, and you just do not feel it when people exit. Go to a drop zone and take an observer ride. It's not like you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when someone launches a triple-lindy off of it. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

---

Pulling off of the stairs vs. jumping - I personally wouldn't like that idea, but I'm experienced and know the problems that might cause. But other people, including 377, have suggested that possibility and that may be what Cooper did. I wrote a more detailed piece about that on dropzone the other day. I also wrote a piece there about 'dangling' the load vs. tying it on securely.

---

Jumping with stuff attached - First, I don't think that a spinning, tumbling, out-of-control freefall necessarily results in a no-pull. If Cooper's got the nerve to pull off the hijacking, I'm guessing that he has the presence of mind to pull. One puts the rig on and familiarizes one's self where the ripcord handle is. However out of control one may be, the handle is still in the same spot. I've seen people pull in some pretty f-ed up positions, and they get open. - I think all smoke jumps, and many military jumps with loads are static-line, so no freefall issues there. But many military 'loaded' jumps are freefall. And look at modern sport tandem jumps. We jump with people(!) attached to us. A lot of them are 230lb beer-drinking lunkheads. Many of them do not perform to their training. Some of them are downright uncooperative, kicking, flailing, going fetal or 'catman'. And we pull it off, it's not that hard. But yes, we're experienced and know how to handle it. Freefall stability really isn't that hard, but it can be subtly tricky to learn. It's kind of like learning to ride a bicycle - it can be difficult and wobbly at first, but once one 'gets' it, it's pretty intuitive. So if Cooper is experienced, it's fairly easy. If he's not, well like anything, some people take to it easier than others, so it may or may not be a problem. My educated guess is that it's way more likely than not that Cooper survives the jump. Whether he's injured on landing, and that hampers his egress, that's another issue...

Dudeman: The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

R99: The "pressure bump" was the result of the aft stairs hitting the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  Exactly the same thing happened with the sled drops during the FBI tests according to Harald Anderson who was the flight engineer (as well as being a pilot) on the hijacked airline and on the FBI tests.


The issue is: oscillations vs bump. Carr raised the issue years ago at DZ, asking is there a difference. The TAG team and Anderson tested for these effects during the test flight, as R99 notes. R99 calls it a "pressure bump" because the BUMP was attributed to an abrupt pressure change due to the sudden closing of the stairs after Cooper's weight was suddenly off the stairs and the stairs recoiled closing the hole - Bernoulli effect. Anderson was on the test flight and confirmed the closing of the hole caused a "pressure spike" or bump he experienced. The timing and location of 305 when that bump occurred is what NWA and others used to try and identify the drop zone.

Rataczak said the "bump" was also associated with a change in the plane's trim (change in nose elevation) which he experienced at the time the bump occurred.

So apparently both aerodynamic forces and pressure effects were involved.

Im not sure "oscillations" were ever resolved with any certainty. Dudeman brings up aerodynamic forces vs pressure effects. Maybe the oscillations were aerodynamic or pressure, or both! ?  But the "bump" was confirmed during the test flight and used to define the point when Cooper left the stairs. That association was passed on to the FBI by the TAG team and NWA engineers and used to develop a search zone map, sent the FBI by NWA .... all of this history confirmed in many FOIA 302's on the subject.

Georger,

Aerodynamic forces are pressure effects.  There would be a minor nose down pitching motion when Cooper jumped from the stairs.  As you point out, who knows what the term "oscillations" means in this contex.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 01:44:33 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5682 on: September 30, 2020, 01:48:53 AM »
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In no particular order...

It seems a lot of people studying this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known. Sure one must speculate possibilities and likelihoods, but...

---

Reserve containers - R99 confirms that some of those containers used cones rather than closing loops. That complicates re-closing the container. As I remember, the holes in those cones weren't very big, might be difficult or impossible to thread lines through them to tie the container shut. If the real one had cones and the dummy had closing loops, that would be a reason to switch. I would guess that they would use closing loops on the dummy for ease of repacking. Yes, pilot chutes have springs, but no, those reserves would not have pilot chutes, as they used the hand-deploy method of reserve deployment. If half the canopy was removed on the dummy, it would indeed be softer when packed as there is less bulk/density in it. My guess, though, would be that if he used the container he might have removed the canopy. If he left that on the plane, it could easily have been blown out the door at any time.

---

The 'pressure bump' on exit - Eric has the right idea about that. The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Even the largest commonly used jump planes, DC-3's then and Twin Otters now, are much smaller and less powerful than that jet, and you just do not feel it when people exit. Go to a drop zone and take an observer ride. It's not like you're sitting on the edge of a springboard when someone launches a triple-lindy off of it. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

---

Pulling off of the stairs vs. jumping - I personally wouldn't like that idea, but I'm experienced and know the problems that might cause. But other people, including 377, have suggested that possibility and that may be what Cooper did. I wrote a more detailed piece about that on dropzone the other day. I also wrote a piece there about 'dangling' the load vs. tying it on securely.

---

Jumping with stuff attached - First, I don't think that a spinning, tumbling, out-of-control freefall necessarily results in a no-pull. If Cooper's got the nerve to pull off the hijacking, I'm guessing that he has the presence of mind to pull. One puts the rig on and familiarizes one's self where the ripcord handle is. However out of control one may be, the handle is still in the same spot. I've seen people pull in some pretty f-ed up positions, and they get open. - I think all smoke jumps, and many military jumps with loads are static-line, so no freefall issues there. But many military 'loaded' jumps are freefall. And look at modern sport tandem jumps. We jump with people(!) attached to us. A lot of them are 230lb beer-drinking lunkheads. Many of them do not perform to their training. Some of them are downright uncooperative, kicking, flailing, going fetal or 'catman'. And we pull it off, it's not that hard. But yes, we're experienced and know how to handle it. Freefall stability really isn't that hard, but it can be subtly tricky to learn. It's kind of like learning to ride a bicycle - it can be difficult and wobbly at first, but once one 'gets' it, it's pretty intuitive. So if Cooper is experienced, it's fairly easy. If he's not, well like anything, some people take to it easier than others, so it may or may not be a problem. My educated guess is that it's way more likely than not that Cooper survives the jump. Whether he's injured on landing, and that hampers his egress, that's another issue...

Dudeman: The pilots would not feel simply the weight loss of Cooper jumping. Rather, what they felt was the recoil of the stairs. Look at the size of the flight control surfaces on that jet, look at the size of the trim tabs on those surfaces. Then compare the size of those stairs. When Cooper's weight caused them to lower as he climbed down them, the pilots should feel that, then when he goes, that weight is suddenly gone and they recoil in the wind, that's what the pilots felt. That would be the same whether he jumped or pulled off the stairs.

R99: The "pressure bump" was the result of the aft stairs hitting the fuselage when Cooper jumped.  Exactly the same thing happened with the sled drops during the FBI tests according to Harald Anderson who was the flight engineer (as well as being a pilot) on the hijacked airline and on the FBI tests.


The issue is: oscillations vs bump. Carr raised the issue years ago at DZ, asking is there a difference. The TAG team and Anderson tested for these effects during the test flight, as R99 notes. R99 calls it a "pressure bump" because the BUMP was attributed to an abrupt pressure change due to the sudden closing of the stairs after Cooper's weight was suddenly off the stairs and the stairs recoiled closing the hole - Bernoulli effect. Anderson was on the test flight and confirmed the closing of the hole caused a "pressure spike" or bump he experienced. The timing and location of 305 when that bump occurred is what NWA and others used to try and identify the drop zone.

Rataczak said the "bump" was also associated with a change in the plane's trim (change in nose elevation) which he experienced at the time the bump occurred.

So apparently both aerodynamic forces and pressure effects were involved.

Im not sure "oscillations" were ever resolved with any certainty. Dudeman brings up aerodynamic forces vs pressure effects. Maybe the oscillations were aerodynamic or pressure, or both! ?  But the "bump" was confirmed during the test flight and used to define the point when Cooper left the stairs. That association was passed on to the FBI by the TAG team and NWA engineers and used to develop a search zone map, sent the FBI by NWA .... all of this history confirmed in many FOIA 302's on the subject.

Georger,

Aerodynamic forces are pressure effects.  There would be a minor nose down pitching motion when Cooper jumped from the stairs.  As you point out, who knows what the term "oscillations" means in this contex.

Well of course, but different pressure effects. Dudeman is talking about  Aerodynamic forces over surfaces vs Bernoulli effects associated with cavities and holes.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5683 on: October 16, 2020, 06:29:11 PM »
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Hmmm, okay.

Just what was said over there, especially a few days ago in the 'Tina Bar Money Find' thread, made it sound like no one was sure what was meant by 'oscillations'.

The oscillation occurred when Cooper went down the stairs. Pilots for McCoy claimed a howling. the pressure bump was when the door went back up pushing air into the cabin similar to closing a door and the drapes move..
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5684 on: October 16, 2020, 06:45:40 PM »
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Hmmm, okay.

Just what was said over there, especially a few days ago in the 'Tina Bar Money Find' thread, made it sound like no one was sure what was meant by 'oscillations'.

The oscillation occurred when Cooper went down the stairs. Pilots for McCoy claimed a howling. the pressure bump was when the door went back up pushing air into the cabin similar to closing a door and the drapes move..

The plural "oscillations" suggests that Cooper may have gone down a few steps on the stairs more than once to thrown things out and needed to move the tip of the stairs downward enough for the objects to clear the airliner.