Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 514461 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5640 on: September 25, 2020, 05:38:46 PM »
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All of that said, there is no reason to believe that the dummy was marked as such in any manner whatsoever. There is not a single description in the FBI files that denotes any markings at all.

That would be extremely unprofessional for a business to have a training chute available for someone to pickup and use. it is only mentioned in the 302's as an inoperable chute. another document describes the front pack including markings on the container. I think it's highly possible no dummy chute was given. we hear it straight from jumpers stating they are marked one way or another. I would certainly agree with this since it would be extremely dangerous to have lying around unmarked. Dudeman is not the only one who has mentioned this..

The only person stating this is Cossey and he wasn't there.

Does it really matter, since as stated above no "documented facts" are available to even decide? People's opinions are just "opinions" and nothing more.

Several facts are apparent: (a) the chute was not on the plane at Reno, (b) Cooper did not complain about it being a dud, (c) Cooper was not seen opening that chute and stripping it for cord, or using it as a money bag (d) Emerick supplied the chute for some reason, (e) there is no documented interview with Emerick by anyone - that's just another claim!, (f) no crew notes or interviews mention a chute with a red X ?       

Do Smith and Cook claim to have interviewed Emerick too ?

My feeling is even if there were an FBI 302 that stated the chute had a RED X, there would be people claiming that's a lie! The whole history of this case is facts being challenged and dismissed . . . to support people's agendas. That's the climate we are in! 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 05:52:15 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5641 on: September 25, 2020, 06:13:30 PM »
“The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinions.”

— Arnold Glasgow
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5642 on: September 26, 2020, 04:36:52 AM »
For me, what is increasingly more important is that this Dummy Chute stuff started with Cossey; as has been noted, he wasn't there.

More intriguing, it seems that Coss initiated the contact with the FBI, "arriving" at Seattle FBI FO on Monday, I believe. 11. 29. 71.

I wonder why.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5643 on: September 26, 2020, 10:58:19 AM »
It's been mentioned about being involved in this case for 15 years and still not understanding parts or getting facts. 15 years ago no documents were available. it's only recently the 302's have been released and sometimes still doesn't clear things up.

We know over the years one of the front packs were supposedly a dummy chute. several years ago we tried to find the source of the statement of the "red X". no real conclusions have been noted other than possibly coming from the DZ. that was the main source for years. Cossey was well respected in the community and I've never heard someone speak ill of him prior to the hijacking. people relied on him with there lives.

Cossey is quoted in several documents surrounding the dummy chute. some say "the folds were sewn together" and one says it was cut in half and sewn together" either way sounds like the whole chute is still intact just more controllable, made easier?

Then we have a 302 giving a description of the front pack. I don't think the length of the lines are noted on the packing card, Dudeman? who told them this information. did Cossey identify the chute by the marking of "Norm D" on the container? the document details the chute pretty well. it just sounds very dangerous like leaving a real loaded gun among prop guns. looking at the document also describes the other chute missing (back pack) as a "Navy type 6"

We don't seem to have a second ripcord in the plane. this would suggest Cooper knew exactly how to take the chutes apart or never touched the second chute.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5644 on: September 26, 2020, 11:45:06 AM »
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We don't seem to have a second ripcord in the plane. this would suggest Cooper knew exactly how to take the chutes apart or never touched the second chute.

This is a good observation that has never occurred to me. DBC either didn't pull the cord, or he did pull the cord and took the handle with him.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5645 on: September 26, 2020, 12:20:09 PM »
Without having the actual chute or Cooper himself we don't know what he did with the second reserve. the ripcord would be required to secure the bag if he knew how to put it back together. I would speculate both chutes would be seen open. this would show far more knowledge than assumed. he was seen tying a loop around the canvas bag so that would suggest money was already missing from the bag since you believe it went to the top and wasn't big enough to tie off.

The facts known doesn't support a second chute...what happened after he was alone is unknown. it's all speculation and one could add he was ready to jump soon after takeoff but the money issue tossed a wrench into the plan. no easy fix to it or it would of been solved years ago..
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5646 on: September 26, 2020, 02:37:08 PM »
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For me, what is increasingly more important is that this Dummy Chute stuff started with Cossey; as has been noted, he wasn't there.

More intriguing, it seems that Coss initiated the contact with the FBI, "arriving" at Seattle FBI FO on Monday, I believe. 11. 29. 71.

I wonder why.

I remember seeing 302 documentation that the FBI were trying to get in contact with Cossey on the evening of November 25th (Thanksgiving Day) but were unable to do so.  Cossey was apparently out of town that day.  Then Cossey returned the FBI calls about 1:00 AM on November 26th after getting back in town.  Presumably they set up a meeting in those early morning calls.

ADDENDUM:  I see that FJ has posted an FBI memo with more information on this point on DropZone.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 02:48:15 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5647 on: September 26, 2020, 02:40:20 PM »
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We don't seem to have a second ripcord in the plane. this would suggest Cooper knew exactly how to take the chutes apart or never touched the second chute.

This is a good observation that has never occurred to me. DBC either didn't pull the cord, or he did pull the cord and took the handle with him.

Reinserting the ripcord would be the logical way to close the reserve container.  Frankly, I doubt if Cooper opened the missing reserve. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5648 on: September 26, 2020, 03:56:08 PM »
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For me, what is increasingly more important is that this Dummy Chute stuff started with Cossey; as has been noted, he wasn't there.

More intriguing, it seems that Coss initiated the contact with the FBI, "arriving" at Seattle FBI FO on Monday, I believe. 11. 29. 71.

I wonder why.

I remember seeing 302 documentation that the FBI were trying to get in contact with Cossey on the evening of November 25th (Thanksgiving Day) but were unable to do so.  Cossey was apparently out of town that day.  Then Cossey returned the FBI calls about 1:00 AM on November 26th after getting back in town.  Presumably they set up a meeting in those early morning calls.

ADDENDUM:  I see that FJ has posted an FBI memo with more information on this point on DropZone.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5649 on: September 26, 2020, 05:44:02 PM »
Good find. Thanks, G.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5650 on: September 26, 2020, 11:21:21 PM »
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Good find. Thanks, G.

Im going thru all of the files - slowly! Cataloging the whole thing - argh!  :-\ :-\    FJ is doing likewise ... he's ahead of me...
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 11:25:53 PM by georger »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5651 on: September 27, 2020, 04:04:40 AM »
The length of the lines would not normally be noted on the packing card. Make, model, and serial number. Any size marking ("26' Navy Conical", e.g.) would refer to the size of the canopy.
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If he opened the other reserve, re-closing it with the ripcord might be kind of difficult, depending on how much he was putting inside it. Those closing loops aren't very long. Too much bulk in the container, it's a bitch to close. Too little bulk and there might not be enough tension to keep it closed, the ripcord might just fall out. Might be easier to tie it shut. Robert99, did any of those early reserves use the metal cones instead of closing loops? If so, might be even more difficult to close using the ripcord.
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He was seen tying the top of the money bag. He was also seen 'wrapping money in white material'. Not sure how that was worded in the documents, but is it possible that he wasn't satisfied with the way the bag was tied and was wrapping the entire money bag in the material for better security? Tying both the bag and the reserve on might be kind of cumbersome. Is it possible he tied the bag inside the reserve container? The container would not have to close all the way if it was tied with lines. Looking at those pictures Eric posted, that might work girth-wise, length-wise looks more iffy. Perhaps he stuffed some money packets in his pockets or down his pants? Between his belt and the leg straps, that might be secure.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5652 on: September 27, 2020, 09:21:10 AM »
The document surrounding the statement of "white material" is full of error's...they seem to get things backwards. the open reserve had a pinkish canopy. this document states it was white and the back pack having the pink canopy which is also incorrect.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5653 on: September 27, 2020, 10:04:04 AM »
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Perhaps he stuffed some money packets in his pockets or down his pants? Between his belt and the leg straps, that might be secure.

All the documents surrounding the money only state the size of the contents and not the bag. they also state a seal was on the bag during delivery. was the money in the bag flat or on it's side? the problem we have is the lack of photo's by the FBI. as far as we know they never took any photo's of the money or chutes. the only thing Cooper spoke out about was the fact of the bag vs knapsack. one would think he would say "it doesn't even close"
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5654 on: September 27, 2020, 11:12:42 AM »
There are a handful of statements that support my thoughts about the bank bag and the dummy reserve.

First, witnesses that saw the money bag being brought onboard the jet describe it as about "1' by 2'" in size.

Second, we do have the dimensions of the money and from there can measure its cubic space (the volume it occupied).

Third, Cooper himself complained he would have to use a parachute to pack the money (NOTE: The next size up bank bag is about 3' tall, meaning if that bag was used there would have been a significant amount of excess bag at the top to cinch and there would have been absolutely no reason for Cooper to complain he would need to use a parachute to store the money).

Fourth, Tina witnessed him wrapping or attempting to put the money in one of the reserves. Now she may have assumed it was the pink parachute and been wrong about that. Or, perhaps Cooper tried using the pink parachute and abandoned the idea only to use the white dummy reserve after she was in the cockpit.

Fifth, the pics I displayed showing the bank bag sitting next to the reserve doesn't adequately capture the size difference. If I had to guess I would say the volume of the bank bag is double the volume of the reserve. This is plainly obvious when holding the two and looking at them side-by-side in person.

Sixth, the FBI documents do mention a "white material." Perhaps it's an error, perhaps it isn't.

Seventh, the dummy reserve is gone. Why?

Finally, I suspect--taking an educated guess--that DBC opened up the dummy reserve and wrapped the excess twenties, attache' case, and perhaps some other smaller items (yellow bag he boarded with, notes, etc) into the white canopy and used some of the shroud lines he cut from the genuine reserve to secure that "bundle" to his person in some manner. Remember, Cooper cut off 79.6 feet of shroud line from the genuine reserve. That is a lot of cord. Are we to believe it was all used on the money bag alone?

Also, consider that smokejumpers are accustomed to jumping into the forest with chainsaws, shovels, backpacks and all kinds of shit dangling below them. While not easy, it is certainly doable.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK