Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 505091 times)

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8567
  • Thanked: 826 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5580 on: September 17, 2020, 03:43:33 PM »
What I meant was he was seen in a video on that same spot looking at maps.. those could be the maps rolled up either before or after the video...typing too fast and screwing up  :rofl:
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8567
  • Thanked: 826 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5581 on: September 18, 2020, 12:21:43 AM »
Ordinary high water mark (OHWM) explained below..this was taken from a permit on the Fazio's property. I think this would be labeled a civil engineering drawing..
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 12:57:37 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8567
  • Thanked: 826 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5582 on: September 18, 2020, 12:48:38 AM »
If you look at the difference between the 1980 photo and the 1981 photo you will no longer see the shaded area that I believe is a waterline. it fits almost exact...

We know the date of May 30, 1980
The other photo only states 1981. no month listed.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Thanked: 19 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5583 on: September 18, 2020, 12:51:53 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Subway?  :rofl:
Blimpie’s.

Turkey on wheat, extra cheese, hold the mayo.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5584 on: September 18, 2020, 01:46:11 PM »
After studying very closely the full-sized image of the May 30, 1980 Tena Bar image that Shutter obtained, I am very slightly updating the GPS cords for the money find spot. This change moves the spot approximately 5' closer to the river.

The updated GPS cords are: 45.718564, -122.759423

It is very difficult to measure, but it appears that the money find spot is about 49' to 50' from the edge of the gravel road and the back (east side) canopy of the "V-Tree" as I call it--not to be confused with the well-know "Angled Tree."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Online georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2298
  • Thanked: 312 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5585 on: September 18, 2020, 03:33:49 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
After studying very closely the full-sized image of the May 30, 1980 Tena Bar image that Shutter obtained, I am very slightly updating the GPS cords for the money find spot. This change moves the spot approximately 5' closer to the river.

The updated GPS cords are: 45.718564, -122.759423

It is very difficult to measure, but it appears that the money find spot is about 49' to 50' from the edge of the gravel road and the back (east side) canopy of the "V-Tree" as I call it--not to be confused with the well-know "Angled Tree."

Have you ever herd of Standard error?

The standard error of a statistic is the standard deviation of its sampling distribution or an estimate of that standard deviation. If the statistic is the sample mean, it is called the standard error of the mean. Wikipedia
SE = \sigma / sqrt(n)
\text{SE}   =    standard error of the sample
\sigma   =    sample standard deviation
n   =    number of samples

In other werds: there is limited advantage to trying to count the number of angels that can sit on the head of a pin, when the pin is in motion!  :rofl: 

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 03:41:55 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5586 on: September 21, 2020, 07:51:01 PM »
I have always maintained that DB Cooper removed some of the packets of twenties from the bank bag before he secured it and jumped because it was too full.

Importantly, I have also stated that I believe that the excess packets of twenties that DBC removed were wrapped into the dummy reserve and that this explains how some of the packets of twenties got separated from the bank bag and ended up being left behind on Tena Bar.

The 302’s for Tina Mucklow tell a story and I think prove that DBC did, in fact, remove some of the packets of twenties from the bank bag.

One of Tina’s 302’s states that by the time she brought the final parachute onto the jet that DBC had already cut shroud lines from one of the reserves and that he had used these lines to wrap around the neck of the bank bag, wrap around the bank bag from top to bottom and to create a type of handle. Simply put, the bank bag was already tied closed with the money inside.

However, a 302 from Tina also states that DBC complained that he would have to wrap the money into one of the parachute canopies, and that she actually saw him doing this.

What makes this interesting is that the 302 says she saw him attempting to wrap the money into the canopy as they were seated and getting reading to take off from SeaTac.

How is this possible? How can Tina see DBC wrapping packets of cash in a parachute canopy if the money bag is already tied with the money inside? Also, it’s been reported in her 302 that DBC offered her a packet of twenties, yet the money was already secured inside the bank bag.  Again, how is this possible?

The only rational explanation is that DBC had removed some of the packets before he secured the bank bag and it was the excess packets of twenties that he removed that she saw and is referring to.

I think it is entirely likely that Tina did not understand exactly what DBC was doing and had done. More to the point, she may not have realized that DBC had pulled some of the packets out of the bank bag and that what she witnessed was him attempting to secure that portion of the ransom in the canopy.

Additionally, seeing the pink canopy lying on the floor, Tina may have associated the act of securing the excess packets with the pink parachute even though in reality DBC used the missing dummy reserve with the white canopy. Perhaps, DBC did initially try to use the pink canopy but later—after Tina was up front—opted to use the less bulky dummy reserve instead. Regardless, the end result is still the same.

There is no way to rationalize the bank bag being secured with the money inside by the time Tina brings the final parachute onboard with the fact that she saw him working with at least some of the money after that point. The only explanation is that DBC removed some of the packets of twenties from the bank bag before he secured it. And, that these excess packets were wrapped into the dummy reserve. And, that this is how at least three packets of twenties got separated from the rest of the ransom in the money bag and left behind on Tena Bar.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5587 on: September 21, 2020, 09:00:28 PM »
Not disputing the possibility of anything else you say here, but what makes you think that the dummy reserve was less bulky? I know you've stated that you think maybe some of the panels were removed. Is there any evidence or report of that, or is that a supposition on your part? Also, once the canopies are taken out, the two reserve containers are likely the same.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5588 on: September 21, 2020, 09:06:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Not disputing the possibility of anything else you say here, but what makes you think that the dummy reserve was less bulky? I know you've stated that you think maybe some of the panels were removed. Is there any evidence or report of that, or is that a supposition on your part? Also, once the canopies are taken out, the two reserve containers are likely the same.

The FBI docs show that Cossey stated that half the canopy was removed. Also, Lynn Emerick stated it was soft to the touch because half the canopy was removed. Apparently the full compliment of shroud lines were intact.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8567
  • Thanked: 826 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5589 on: September 21, 2020, 09:41:07 PM »
Can you provide the document surrounding the removal of panels on the canopy..

Also, I don't see how one could link giving money out of the bag to benefit the same elsewhere?

It appears everything you state could of been achieved with the opening of one front chute...he was seen trying to fit it into the container and I believe the canopy..
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 09:55:35 PM by Shutter »
 

Online georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2298
  • Thanked: 312 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5590 on: September 22, 2020, 12:08:13 AM »
FBI FOIA:  D.B. Cooper file page No. 004 of Part 44 - lab report four bills crystal ingram

FBI Lab Report, Washington re- specimens Q60-63 submitted for analysis - these are the four additional bills Crystal Ingram turned in late after the Ingrams had submitted their bills earlier.

Note Serial Numbers of these four bills, and sand type comparison of these bills with the Ingram bills submitted earlier ...   
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 01:40:41 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5591 on: September 22, 2020, 05:49:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Can you provide the document surrounding the removal of panels on the canopy..

Also, I don't see how one could link giving money out of the bag to benefit the same elsewhere?

It appears everything you state could of been achieved with the opening of one front chute...he was seen trying to fit it into the container and I believe the canopy..

Musika Farnsworth quotes Cossey in her 2010 USPA article as follows:

Cossey explained, “For the dummy rig, I cut the reserve in half and sewed the panels together so that when the student threw it out, I could just fold it up and put it back in the container in half the time. That reserve was half the density of a regular reserve, and it was obvious to anyone with experience that it wasn’t a normal reserve.”

I believe Linn Emerick mentions the "soft to the touch" aspect of the dummy too.

I'm not certain I understand the rest of your comments. My point is that according to Tina, Cooper had the money bag tied shut--presumably with the money inside--by the time she brought the fourth parachute onboard. But later she references seeing him attempting to wrap the ransom in a "white material," as well as one of the reserves.

Obviously in order for these comments and recollections to be accurate, Cooper had to have removed some of the money from the bank bag and utilized the dummy reserve to secure those removed packets. Also, the FBI files discuss the authorities telling hunters to look for money wrapped up in a parachute canopy while hunting.

All of this is critical to my theory about how three packets of twenties were left behind on Tena Bar--in other words, separated from the rest of the ransom. This could have only happened if the packets were buried, which clearly suggests that DB Cooper survived and likely landed within walking distance of Tena Bar.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8567
  • Thanked: 826 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5592 on: September 22, 2020, 06:31:27 AM »
That's a little different to what he said days after the hijacking. 2010 is 39 years after the fact. I think we went through this a while back with the reference to "white material".... can this quote be found?

Her first interview she said he stated "he would be forced to use one of the chutes to rewarap the money"

Her second interview states she came back with the last chute and he had one open and cutting lines. also stated he was angry about the knapsack. after trying to put the money in the unfolded chute he decided to leave it in the canvas bag. both interviews state pink canopy and cord.. nothing white except the money bag.

The FBI stating the money could be in the canopy is after the jump or while he was on the ground. could of used the chute he landed with.

I don't follow the reasoning of opening two of the same chutes for the same objective..

Dudeman, what would sewing the folds of the chute mean or what is the folds of a chute?
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5593 on: September 22, 2020, 06:45:49 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I don't follow the reasoning of opening two of the same chutes for the same objective..


What choice does he have? He has to utilize a second chute.

After all, the pink parachute is completely separated (cut out and removed) from its container. How does he use that parachute...fold the money in the canopy and wrap the flat container around it? How does he secure it? Where does he get more shroud lines? Does he remove all the shroud lines first, then set them aside and wrap it all up?

It's much easier to use the dummy reserve which is still entirely intact and use the pink parachute to cut shroud lines from as needed.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Thanked: 19 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5594 on: September 22, 2020, 11:36:23 AM »
Here's another thought - rather than looking at or close to Tena Bar, perhaps Cooper and the money landed further south. Say, on Hayden Island, Tomahawk Island or somewhere along the shore there. The body/money remained unseen on land but near the water. The flooding in May/ June of the following year rose enough to dislodge the remains with the money attached and it floated down to Tena Bar.

This theory is similar to R99, but with a no-pull closer to the FBI flight path.

My question is, what are the flood levels along that area of the Columbia? Perhaps they are lower than that of Tena Bar.

To preempt any dismissal of this theory on the basis of "debris from that part of the Columbia doesn't end up on Tena Bar", I'll point out that there are any number of  methods something like a body/money bag could have ended up there. The Columbia is a powerful girl with currents, tides, winds, and large ships all combining to create unpredictable steering of debris.

Thoughts?