Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 424538 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4365 on: September 01, 2019, 12:56:36 AM »
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I added a new feature on my site that enables you to view Tena Bar and the money find spot over the years (1979, 1978, 1974, 1970, 1968 and 1955).

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USGS photos for the same years do not agree with your shoreline depictions! Forget about the money find locations. Why are your shorelines different than USGS photos for the same years ?

Where did you get your photos ?

Why are you posting photos for 55, 68, and 70? Tina Bar didn't even exist in 1955 and the hijack wasn't until late 71!   ;)

« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 01:08:56 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4366 on: September 01, 2019, 01:37:55 AM »
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I added a new feature on my site that enables you to view Tena Bar and the money find spot over the years (1979, 1978, 1974, 1970, 1968 and 1955).

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Is there any possibility of determining the day and month that the rest of the pictures were taken?  Also, is the find location indicated the same as the location Fazio showed you?  The area indicated is quite steep at the present time as the result of some severe erosion.

Further, is there a small building located very close to this find location?  I have never been to it but an individual made it a point to show it to me and said that it was an outhouse.  I took his word for it.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 01:41:05 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4367 on: September 01, 2019, 02:30:03 AM »
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I added a new feature on my site that enables you to view Tena Bar and the money find spot over the years (1979, 1978, 1974, 1970, 1968 and 1955).

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Is there any possibility of determining the day and month that the rest of the pictures were taken?  Also, is the find location indicated the same as the location Fazio showed you?  The area indicated is quite steep at the present time as the result of some severe erosion.

Further, is there a small building located very close to this find location?  I have never been to it but an individual made it a point to show it to me and said that it was an outhouse.  I took his word for it.

As you know, all USGS photos are date stamped. Quality varies in the earlier USGS photos. I notice that EU's cropped photos are rather sharp and crisp - where did he get them? Maybe EU's photos are from a better source than the FBI or USGS?   

I suspect EU's photos have been processed? His cropped photos are not cropped from original USGS photos - I can almost guarantee that.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 02:37:01 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4368 on: September 01, 2019, 02:53:51 AM »
Ulis vs. USGS 1974.

The 1974 Ulis photo shows completely different beachfront vs. the 1974 USGS photo. The Ulis photo shows no or missing beachfront! Ulis is not using a USGS photo or Ulis has manipulated a USGS photo.

Ulis' photo for 1974 is not authentic and therefore not valid! 

What's the source of his photo?

Similar problems exist in the other photos he has posted.

It's obvious he has played with his photo!!  He has even put a date stamp on it! No similar date stamp exists on any USGS photo. Its as simple as that. In fact, notice the difference in pixel density in my USGS photo in the area of the Columbia vs pixel density in EU's jet black beach water area? That's no accident. That is photo manipulation on somebody's part.

Is this allowed under the rules of "Cooper Con".  ?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 03:38:44 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4369 on: September 01, 2019, 09:01:29 AM »
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Is there any possibility of determining the day and month that the rest of the pictures were taken?  Also, is the find location indicated the same as the location Fazio showed you?  The area indicated is quite steep at the present time as the result of some severe erosion.

Further, is there a small building located very close to this find location?  I have never been to it but an individual made it a point to show it to me and said that it was an outhouse.  I took his word for it.

I believe the picture from 1974 is on or around June 22, 1974 given that they had a high water event on that date and the water level is quite high. In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

With the exception of the 9/29/79 picture and the 8/9/70 picture the others are from Clark County.

There is a small outhouse a little east of the money find spot. The outhouse is tucked in the woods.

Richard Fazio could not remember where the money find spot was the first time he brought me down to the water. In fact, I had to show him where the spot is located. Nowadays the area looks very different.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4370 on: September 01, 2019, 01:18:54 PM »
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Is there any possibility of determining the day and month that the rest of the pictures were taken?  Also, is the find location indicated the same as the location Fazio showed you?  The area indicated is quite steep at the present time as the result of some severe erosion.

Further, is there a small building located very close to this find location?  I have never been to it but an individual made it a point to show it to me and said that it was an outhouse.  I took his word for it.

I believe the picture from 1974 is on or around June 22, 1974 given that they had a high water event on that date and the water level is quite high. In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

With the exception of the 9/29/79 picture and the 8/9/70 picture the others are from Clark County.

There is a small outhouse a little east of the money find spot. The outhouse is tucked in the woods.

Richard Fazio could not remember where the money find spot was the first time he brought me down to the water. In fact, I had to show him where the spot is located. Nowadays the area looks very different.

In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

That's meaningless and untrue. The June date seems confirmed but the rest of 1974 was dry and below average as water level data shows. That's the year dredging work placed spoils on TBar. 1973 may have been drier than '74 but other years were wetter than '74 on average.

Is there a url for these County photos you are showing us?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 02:14:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4371 on: September 01, 2019, 02:52:02 PM »
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Is there any possibility of determining the day and month that the rest of the pictures were taken?  Also, is the find location indicated the same as the location Fazio showed you?  The area indicated is quite steep at the present time as the result of some severe erosion.

Further, is there a small building located very close to this find location?  I have never been to it but an individual made it a point to show it to me and said that it was an outhouse.  I took his word for it.

I believe the picture from 1974 is on or around June 22, 1974 given that they had a high water event on that date and the water level is quite high. In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

With the exception of the 9/29/79 picture and the 8/9/70 picture the others are from Clark County.

There is a small outhouse a little east of the money find spot. The outhouse is tucked in the woods.

Richard Fazio could not remember where the money find spot was the first time he brought me down to the water. In fact, I had to show him where the spot is located. Nowadays the area looks very different.

In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

That's meaningless and untrue. The June date seems confirmed but the rest of 1974 was dry and below average as water level data shows. That's the year dredging work placed spoils on TBar. 1973 may have been drier than '74 but other years were wetter than '74 on average.

Is there a url for these County photos you are showing us?

More accurate data on for the Columbia River level at Vancouver is available from about 1973 onward.  I don't have the numbers at hand, but going from memory, the water level at Tina Bar was only about 5 feet above sea level at most in mid-February 1980 when the FBI and other photos were taken of the evacuation.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4372 on: September 01, 2019, 03:20:22 PM »
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In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

That's meaningless and untrue.

Stop being an ass GEORGER. Were you raised under a rock? Don't you possess one ounce of social grace? Learn how to address people with a measure of civility.

SEE  BELOW:

Historic Crests for Vancouver, WA

(1) 33.60 ft on 06/07/1894
(2) 31.00 ft on 06/13/1948
(3) 30.80 ft on 06/01/1948
(4) 27.70 ft on 12/25/1964
(5) 27.60 ft on 06/04/1956
(6) 27.20 ft on 02/09/1996
(7) 26.30 ft on 06/19/1933
(8) 26.20 ft on 05/31/1928
(9) 26.00 ft on 06/12/1921
(10) 25.90 ft on 06/26/1950
(11) 25.60 ft on 06/16/1903

(12) 25.44 ft on 01/19/1965
(13) 25.30 ft on 06/22/1917
(14) 25.30 ft on 06/03/1916
(15) 25.20 ft on 06/13/1913

(16) 22.55 ft on 01/03/1997
(17) 21.50 ft on 06/12/1972
(18) 21.10 ft on 06/22/1974

(19) 19.54 ft on 01/24/1970
(20) 19.03 ft on 06/05/1997

I see an awful lot of June there. How about you?

GEORGER, you lose yet again.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4373 on: September 01, 2019, 04:00:43 PM »
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In fact, most of the high water activity is in the month of June.

That's meaningless and untrue.

Stop being an ass GEORGER. Were you raised under a rock? Don't you possess one ounce of social grace? Learn how to address people with a measure of civility.

SEE  BELOW:

Historic Crests for Vancouver, WA

(1) 33.60 ft on 06/07/1894
(2) 31.00 ft on 06/13/1948
(3) 30.80 ft on 06/01/1948
(4) 27.70 ft on 12/25/1964
(5) 27.60 ft on 06/04/1956
(6) 27.20 ft on 02/09/1996
(7) 26.30 ft on 06/19/1933
(8) 26.20 ft on 05/31/1928
(9) 26.00 ft on 06/12/1921
(10) 25.90 ft on 06/26/1950
(11) 25.60 ft on 06/16/1903

(12) 25.44 ft on 01/19/1965
(13) 25.30 ft on 06/22/1917
(14) 25.30 ft on 06/03/1916
(15) 25.20 ft on 06/13/1913

(16) 22.55 ft on 01/03/1997
(17) 21.50 ft on 06/12/1972
(18) 21.10 ft on 06/22/1974

(19) 19.54 ft on 01/24/1970
(20) 19.03 ft on 06/05/1997

I see an awful lot of June there. How about you?

GEORGER, you lose yet again.
Is there some point to this crap?  What has high water events in the last 100 years got to do with the DB Cooper case?

The data for the Cooper period is blow!

What you are doing is wasting everyone's time.  :congrats:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 05:37:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4374 on: September 02, 2019, 11:49:28 PM »
Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4375 on: September 03, 2019, 01:02:42 AM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

How does this put the money being buried on November 24, 1971 in jeopardy? If the money is a foot or two down why would high water in '72 and '74 be a problem?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4376 on: September 03, 2019, 01:58:55 AM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

How does this put the money being buried on November 24, 1971 in jeopardy? If the money is a foot or two down why would high water in '72 and '74 be a problem?

Since the money was found an inch or two under the sand in 1980, it would have to have been underwater at some point (and probably was several times) before that time.  And that is no problem whatsoever.

Remember that Tom Kaye has posted evidence that one of the packets had been "torqued".  That is, it only had a single band near one end and some of the bills had been rotated with respect to the others and the portion of the bills between the band and the longer end had been torn off and was missing.  This is no problem either.

The torqueing is clear evidence that the packet had been exposed to flowing water.  It would probably require several cycles of drying and wetting to weaken the paper to the point that it tears easily.  It also may indicate that the torqueing was done at a different location.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4377 on: September 03, 2019, 11:20:02 AM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

How does this put the money being buried on November 24, 1971 in jeopardy? If the money is a foot or two down why would high water in '72 and '74 be a problem?

Since the money was found an inch or two under the sand in 1980, it would have to have been underwater at some point (and probably was several times) before that time.  And that is no problem whatsoever.

Remember that Tom Kaye has posted evidence that one of the packets had been "torqued".  That is, it only had a single band near one end and some of the bills had been rotated with respect to the others and the portion of the bills between the band and the longer end had been torn off and was missing.  This is no problem either.

The torqueing is clear evidence that the packet had been exposed to flowing water.  It would probably require several cycles of drying and wetting to weaken the paper to the point that it tears easily.  It also may indicate that the torqueing was done at a different location.

Tom identified three bills askew or torqued. The rest of the bills underneath the top three were aligned properly. Additionally, apparently this was evident for only one of the three packets.

In my mind this indicates that the bills were buried dry in a hole probably two feet or so deep. The top three bills being askew could easily have happened as the bills were thrown in the hole and buried.

It is apparent that in addition to rain water that migrated from the surface to the bills, there was also river water that occasionally reached the bills during a couple of high-water events. In fact, it appears that there may have only been two high-water events before the money was discovered in 1980--June of 1972 and June of 1974.

This makes perfect sense. In part, because Tom's analysis showed virtually no damage to bills that were buried for 33 months as part of a test. Remember, 377's Cooper twenty--which is a very complete sample--lost about 75% of its original profile due to rotting away while buried. Simply put, this is more evidence that the bills were buried for a very long time.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4378 on: September 03, 2019, 01:23:11 PM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

How does this put the money being buried on November 24, 1971 in jeopardy? If the money is a foot or two down why would high water in '72 and '74 be a problem?

Since the money was found an inch or two under the sand in 1980, it would have to have been underwater at some point (and probably was several times) before that time.  And that is no problem whatsoever.

Remember that Tom Kaye has posted evidence that one of the packets had been "torqued".  That is, it only had a single band near one end and some of the bills had been rotated with respect to the others and the portion of the bills between the band and the longer end had been torn off and was missing.  This is no problem either.

The torqueing is clear evidence that the packet had been exposed to flowing water.  It would probably require several cycles of drying and wetting to weaken the paper to the point that it tears easily.  It also may indicate that the torqueing was done at a different location.

Tom identified three bills askew or torqued. The rest of the bills underneath the top three were aligned properly. Additionally, apparently this was evident for only one of the three packets.

In my mind this indicates that the bills were buried dry in a hole probably two feet or so deep. The top three bills being askew could easily have happened as the bills were thrown in the hole and buried.

It is apparent that in addition to rain water that migrated from the surface to the bills, there was also river water that occasionally reached the bills during a couple of high-water events. In fact, it appears that there may have only been two high-water events before the money was discovered in 1980--June of 1972 and June of 1974.

This makes perfect sense. In part, because Tom's analysis showed virtually no damage to bills that were buried for 33 months as part of a test. Remember, 377's Cooper twenty--which is a very complete sample--lost about 75% of its original profile due to rotting away while buried. Simply put, this is more evidence that the bills were buried for a very long time.

While we disagree on some of the above points, I completely agree with you that the bills had been buried for a long time.  And they were probably buried no later than the 1972 high water event.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4379 on: September 03, 2019, 03:31:18 PM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

Fact: the FBI documented the location of the money find site with high quality photography of the site and the area - survey photos from the County documented property lines and whose property the money site was on - USGS photos were also obtained and considered.  None of those photos and notes has ever been shared with the public but Tom Kaye was allowed to see and work* with all of this documentation in Seattle and at Tina Bar.

One issue that needed to be determined was whose property the money find site was on - turned out the site was on Fazio property but very close to a neighboring property line north of the Fazo property. Both the Fazios and the neighbors were brought to the site and shown the Ingram site.

This is all well known and documented. Between 1970-1980 the find site was never under water in the Columbia River. Other people's speculations and claims are irrelevant and wrong.

** No radioisotope or other tests were ever done on the money to try and determine when the money was buried - the several tests ordered on the money on several dates, were general in nature but stressed finger printing. No prints were recovered from the bills.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 03:45:43 PM by georger »