Author Topic: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?  (Read 45592 times)

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #165 on: December 07, 2015, 11:32:39 PM »
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So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.



It appears that I am just a Super-Dooper Investigative Reporter! Wow. I've been sitting on a SCOOP for seven years and didn't know it!

Thanks, Georger, for helping me realize how smart I truly am...

Of course you are the only source for the FBI sample being taken from the tie clasp. Everywhere else Ckret said the sample comes from the tie - he never mentioned it coming from the clasp. The source being touch dna is also new. If you and Larry are correct, assuming you copied his remarks accurately, then that makes Blevins' 'eipthelial' cells he got from Porteous and the FBI email, wrong.

It probably can't be both touch dna and epithelial cells.

 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #166 on: December 07, 2015, 11:36:15 PM »
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So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.



It appears that I am just a Super-Dooper Investigative Reporter! Wow. I've been sitting on a SCOOP for seven years and didn't know it!

Thanks, Georger, for helping me realize how smart I truly am...

Weren't you one of the three remaining smart-asses in the last year at Dropzone that got owners to close the Dropzone thread down? You, Blevins, and Weber? Everyone else had abandoned Dropzone. Maybe you will accomplish the same thing here?  :o :(
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #167 on: December 07, 2015, 11:47:20 PM »
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KIRO vs KING

Yup. Confusion.

Spoke at length with "Linda" at KING. She's been around a while - 1992-something. Knows the case. Knows her archives, too. Doesn't remember any broadcast about Cooper and cigarette butts. Remembers Chris Ingalls's initial broadcast in 2003 about DNA. Source of DNA not disclosed, however.

But a new FBI agent was identified. SA Charles Mindigo. He was quoted at length. He was not a PIO, apparently. Never heard of him before.

I also spoke with Sharon at KING. Sharon was not as golden-an-oldie as Linda, but she was very diligent. Spoke with her colleagues at length. Their archives are not as extensive as KING. KIRO only went to 2004 with extra searching. Normal search only goes to 2008. They found nothing on cigarette butts and DB Cooper. Sharon knows the case fairly well, (for a millennial). Remembers Marla!

I've discussed this broadcast business with Ron and Pat at length over the years. They are adamant about seeing a cigarette butt broadcast in 2001-2002.

I also spoke with these people and Ingalls returned my call - last Friday. Extensive searches were done on Friday. Chris mailed me all relevant transcripts done at KING on Cooper dna after Chris interviewed  SA Charles Mindigo. KING-5 can't find any program like you describe the Forman's report seeing, and so far, no program done by Mr. Bounds on that topic.

The issue of course is the sources you cite and the credibility of those sources and the info you present.

Maybe JT or Jo Weber or Blevins saw the program and can confirm?

 :)
   
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 11:47:53 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #168 on: December 08, 2015, 12:11:51 AM »
What has got you so interested in the saliva DNA, Georger? You really seem to have your knickers in a twist, here.

I find that very, um, interesting....

Your interest is now, um, my interest.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 12:12:14 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #169 on: December 08, 2015, 12:47:31 AM »
DNA on clasp

I just received an email from Chris Ingalls at KING 5 TV. He confirms that he was told by Larry Carr in 2007 that a DNA sample was retrieved from the tie and clasp, as Carr reported to me. This seems to contradict Georger, and more importantly puts G in a harsh light because Georger has just posted saying that he has had recent correspondence with Mr. Ingalls, but fails to mention the clasp.

The following is from Chris Ingalls:

"...The bottom line is that we have not reported that saliva was taken from the cigarette butts.
 
In 2003, I reported that a weak sample of DNA was retrieved from Cooper and it was now considered somewhat usable for ruling out a suspect.
 
In 2007, I reported that Agent Carr said that this DNA came from the tie clasp and tie clip recovered on the plane. (emphasis added, BAS.)

I don’t know that I ever reported it – but I have been told by at least a couple of FBI agents that the cigarette butts were lost at some point.
 
Chris Ingalls
News Reporter"
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 12:47:58 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #170 on: December 08, 2015, 01:03:12 AM »
Chris just confirmed that he spoke with georger, and had also interview Charles Mindigo back in 2003. He described Mindigo as the "case agent." I've never heard the name before.

OOPS. Mindigo was SAC Seattle.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 06:02:31 AM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #171 on: December 08, 2015, 01:33:36 AM »
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DNA on clasp

I just received an email from Chris Ingalls at KING 5 TV. He confirms that he was told by Larry Carr in 2007 that a DNA sample was retrieved from the tie and clasp, as Carr reported to me. This seems to contradict Georger, and more importantly puts G in a harsh light because Georger has just posted saying that he has had recent correspondence with Mr. Ingalls, but fails to mention the clasp.

The following is from Chris Ingalls:

"...The bottom line is that we have not reported that saliva was taken from the cigarette butts.
 
In 2003, I reported that a weak sample of DNA was retrieved from Cooper and it was now considered somewhat usable for ruling out a suspect.
 
In 2007, I reported that Agent Carr said that this DNA came from the tie clasp and tie clip recovered on the plane. (emphasis added, BAS.)

I don’t know that I ever reported it – but I have been told by at least a couple of FBI agents that the cigarette butts were lost at some point.
 
Chris Ingalls
News Reporter"

Nothing I have said puts me in a harsh light. That's absurd, Mr. Drama Queen Smith. Show any public statement Carr made where he says the dna came off the clasp? That is all I have been saying. It's odd Carr would give out one story publicly then turn around and give out another story to you and King-5. Why didn't Carr or you post this information to Dropzone? Shutter says he saw it only on your website at Mountain News.

Likewise, I have the transcripts Chris Ingalls sent me. Neither transcript mentions tie clasp. The 2007 transcript Ingalls did with Carr says only:   FOR THE FIRST TIME -- THE F-B-I CONFIRMS THAT HAS BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP A D-N-A SAMPLE FROM EVIDENCE COLLECTED FROM THE TIE IN 2001. The 2003 Ingalls transcript says nothing.
So I guess Ingalls has some other story he failed to mention to me and failed to copy to me, he is now citing to you?

Has it occurred to you Carr might be wrong?  :) :) :) :)


 





 
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #172 on: December 08, 2015, 02:18:36 AM »
For the first time I am now even wondering about the viability of the FBI partial profile if as Smith reports they took the sample from the tie clasp - that is the last place most people I know would sample. Again, Carr never said one word about tie clasp on DZ; he always spoke of the sample taken from the tie. This lead to the discussion one would expect namely, 'did the sample come from the neck area on the tie', which was strengthened by Blevins' revelation that the FBI sample was based on "epithelial" cells. Th neck is a well known source for such cells. Moreover the obvious place to sample is the neck area of the tie where the tie rubbed against the wearer's neck. Cells found on a clasp could be anyone's! Multiple people handled it. Presumably only one person wore the tie during its last adventure in the world and the wearer's cells would be embedded in the underside wove of the fabric where there was contact with the wearer's skin.

I wonder what Tom Kaye knows about this? There is nothing about the FBI dna sample on his website. And Tom is well enough versed in this subject to have an opinion.

How far can one go on so little information? Not very far. The Cooper case has turned into a roadshow and a carnival. Bring in the clowns.


 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #173 on: December 08, 2015, 06:22:46 AM »
Listen up guys!

You need to have a civil disagreement, or nothing!

Bruce, please don't stoop to using Blevin's tactics by posting people's names who don't wish to have them made public. (regardless to it being in a book). I seen an edit made 14 minutes after the original post was made. I don't know if the full name was there or not. this occurred after I shut down for the evening.

I received a complaint/threat that I don't appreciate what so ever! resolve your differences in a civil manner.

 

« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 06:25:11 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #174 on: December 08, 2015, 06:24:04 AM »
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #175 on: December 08, 2015, 01:18:18 PM »
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Listen up guys!

You need to have a civil disagreement, or nothing!

Bruce, please don't stoop to using Blevin's tactics by posting people's names who don't wish to have them made public. (regardless to it being in a book). I seen an edit made 14 minutes after the original post was made. I don't know if the full name was there or not. this occurred after I shut down for the evening.

I received a complaint/threat that I don't appreciate what so ever! resolve your differences in a civil manner.

Let's summarise: The claim that the Cooper cigarette butts were processed for dna, remains unproven.  The claim that the tie clasp provided a positive result, vs. the tie itself, seems to be corroborated by Chris Ingalls at KING-5 in private conversation he had with Larry Carr? But so far, there is no instance of Carr saying this publicy, for example at Dropzone. It would be interesting to know where Tom Kaye stands in this matter given his conversations with Carr.

It's worth noting that if the FBI were to send some knowledgeable person to this website to answer questions, perhaps none of this speculation-discussion would be necessary.

Why does any of this matter? It matters because we would like to know who Cooper was. Cooper's personal genetic info might go some distance to identifying who Cooper was, and was-not. For example, Flo said Cooper looked Latin to her; the bulk of suspects suggested by the public on forums so far have all been non-Latin. Another witness said he had the impression the FBI was concentrating on suspects from the Eugene Oregon area. And we know almost nothing about how any dna profile the FBI has influenced their search for DB Cooper except that the FBI says their profile can exclude people and people including Christiansen, Weber, Peterson, etal have all been excluded on genetic basis alone.

In addition, we know literally nothing about the FBI's pursuit of genetic data in the Cooper case. We hear terms like 'partial profile', 'multiple tests', 'epithelial cells', 'touch dna off the clip', 'collected dna from ... in 2000/2001', 'can rule people out but not people in', et cetera ... but we have no official history of the FBI's actual pursuit of genetic evidence in the Cooper case, a pursuit which began later in the case because this science was not available in the 1970s when the hijacking happened.

I think these are questions we all would like answers to.         


 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 01:21:18 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #176 on: December 08, 2015, 04:54:37 PM »
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Listen up guys!

You need to have a civil disagreement, or nothing!

Bruce, please don't stoop to using Blevin's tactics by posting people's names who don't wish to have them made public. (regardless to it being in a book). I seen an edit made 14 minutes after the original post was made. I don't know if the full name was there or not. this occurred after I shut down for the evening.

I received a complaint/threat that I don't appreciate what so ever! resolve your differences in a civil manner.

I do not understand what is going on. Please clarify.

As for posting people's names, here is what I have done recently regarding the DNA investigation:

I talked with Chris Ingalls and posted his name in full, along with part of an email he sent to me explaining his involvement with developing stories for KING TV on DB Cooper and DNA. Chris is after all, a public figure and TV broadcaster. At the least, he deserves attribution for his work. Further, he never asked to be off-the-record, nor asked for confidentiality. In my view, whenever a public figure feels a need for an elevated degree of privacy, I feel it is their responsibility to ask for it, not mine.

Because of the confusion over whether a story on cigarettes has been broadcast or not, I contacted  the archival departments at both KING TV and KIRO TV. In doing so, I spoke with individuals there and posted their first names to give a measure of clarity to who was saying what about whom.

No one has complained to me about that usage, as far as I know.

To be compared to Bobby Blevs is bizarre. Really?

As for threats, I have not made any to anyone, nor have I received any. As for ridicule, well, it's just been another day in the office so to speak...
 

Offline 377

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #177 on: December 08, 2015, 05:54:41 PM »
Bruce wrote: As for ridicule, well, it's just been another day in the office so to speak...

Worn soles and thick skins.  Long live feet on the street investigative reporters.

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #178 on: December 10, 2015, 02:14:12 AM »
New Lead for DNA

I'm expanding my search for information on the sources of DNA available to the Norjak investigation. Next up is contacting the FBI Forensic Sciences Research and Training Center in Quantico, VA directly. After reading Ayn's last email, the Seattle FO is clearly no longer an option for us.

Also, I'm in contact with another author who is investigating the FBI's crime lab, John F Kelley. He's co-author of Tainted Evidence: Inside the Scandals at the FBI Crime Lab. What I've read so far ain't a pretty picture. My understanding is that up to 20 percent of the findings at the FBI lab are suspect due to faulty supervision, mishandling of evidence, sloppy documentation, malfeasance and corruption.

So, get ready all you FBI apologists out there! I'm sure I'll have plenty of stuff to put you in a tizzy.
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #179 on: December 11, 2015, 12:33:50 AM »
What would the partial CODIS profile the FBI says it has, tell us about Cooper's physical traits?

 ;D