Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 165751 times)

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2700 on: August 23, 2019, 01:12:19 AM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2701 on: August 23, 2019, 01:28:09 AM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.

What is wrong with what I wrote above? 
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2702 on: August 23, 2019, 02:22:35 AM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.

What is wrong with what I wrote above?

This info [the radar data] was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR.

Problems:

1.  According to Cliff, as quoted by EU, the accuracy of the radar data in the Portland area was plus or minus several miles.

2.  Did the FDR record VOR radials, DME distances, GMT, aircraft headings, altitudes, winds aloft speeds and directions, and other information useful in calculating a ground track?  How accurate could the FDR data be read?  I'll bet there are some big time problems here.

3.  Neither EU nor I have claimed that the airliner was more than about 3 Nautical Miles outside an 8 Nautical Mile wide airway.  Is the above data accurate enough to show such a relatively small distance?

4.  Finally, where is Crawford, WA?  Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.  Kermit, is Crawford anywhere close to the Portland REI store?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 02:25:10 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2703 on: August 23, 2019, 03:09:39 AM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.

What is wrong with what I wrote above?

This info [the radar data] was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR.

Problems:

1.  According to Cliff, as quoted by EU, the accuracy of the radar data in the Portland area was plus or minus several miles.

2.  Did the FDR record VOR radials, DME distances, GMT, aircraft headings, altitudes, winds aloft speeds and directions, and other information useful in calculating a ground track?  How accurate could the FDR data be read?  I'll bet there are some big time problems here.

3.  Neither EU nor I have claimed that the airliner was more than about 3 Nautical Miles outside an 8 Nautical Mile wide airway.  Is the above data accurate enough to show such a relatively small distance?

4.  Finally, where is Crawford, WA?  Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.  Kermit, is Crawford anywhere close to the Portland REI store?

So you acknowledge your west path is dependent on 'loopholes'. All +/- errors favor your west path version only - can't possibly favor anything else! The money is at Tena Bar ONLY because there was a west path and a dz that allowed money to be at Tena Bar, and nowhere else, and no other mechanism for delivery. All roads must lead to Rome. And partridge in a pear tree too. No other options happened or can happen.

You might have said, if you were fair:  The equal signs on Cliff's screen make it obvious there was built-in error in all of Cliff's observations/decisions. A fair person might ask: so the radar data must be more accurate than Cliff's ability to resolve positions on his screen - yes/no ? - and what are the implications of that.

Cliff has opened new ground here, which needs further examination .... obviously you have all the answers.  :congrats:
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:10:06 AM by georger »
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2704 on: August 23, 2019, 03:19:07 AM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.

What is wrong with what I wrote above?

This info [the radar data] was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR.

Problems:

1.  According to Cliff, as quoted by EU, the accuracy of the radar data in the Portland area was plus or minus several miles.

2.  Did the FDR record VOR radials, DME distances, GMT, aircraft headings, altitudes, winds aloft speeds and directions, and other information useful in calculating a ground track?  How accurate could the FDR data be read?  I'll bet there are some big time problems here.

3.  Neither EU nor I have claimed that the airliner was more than about 3 Nautical Miles outside an 8 Nautical Mile wide airway.  Is the above data accurate enough to show such a relatively small distance?

4.  Finally, where is Crawford, WA?  Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.  Kermit, is Crawford anywhere close to the Portland REI store?

So you acknowledge your west path is dependent on 'loopholes'. All +/- errors favor your west path version only - can't possibly favor anything else! The money is at Tena Bar ONLY because there was a west path and a dz that allowed money to be at Tena Bar, and nowhere else, and no other mechanism for delivery. All roads must lead to Rome. And partridge in a pear tree too. No other options happened or can happen.

You might have said, if you were fair:  The equal signs on Cliff's screen make it obvious there was built-in error in all of Cliff's observations/decisions. A fair person might ask: so the radar data must be more accurate than Cliff's ability to resolve positions on his screen - yes/no ? - and what are the implications of that.

Cliff has opened new ground here, which needs further examination .... obviously you have all the answers.  :congrats:

Georger, I suggest that you read EU's post above related to Cliff's discussion about the radar image on his screen.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2705 on: August 23, 2019, 06:13:20 AM »
I think a refresher is in order here.

As R99 and I have discussed the Western Flight Path we have focused on some facts that are troubling if one supports the FBI Flight Path:

1) Nothing has ever been found in the FBI search area or along the FBI Flight Path as one would expect after 48 years.
2) The placard was found WEST (upwind) of 305 according to the FBI Flight Path.
3) The money was found on Tena Bar which is no where near the FBI search area or flight path.
4) Captain Scott states the jet was 10 miles west of where the FBI was searching and he flew west of Portland.
5) The FBI Flight Path appears erratic and includes some questionable turns, for example, the very sharp turn around the west end of PDX.

Now R99 and I have been torched by a few for actually considering the above stated and not just blindly accepting the FBI Flight Path. Moreover, some have argued that all kinds of witnesses place the jet on the FBI Flight Path as noted below:

1) The F-106 pilots.
2) Portland Tower personnel.
3) ATC controller.
4) George Harrison.

Well if there is one thing I've learned in life it's that people are often full of s#!+, especially when debating a point. Therefore, I have deliberately attempted to get to the truth.

Lo and behold, I speak with Ammerman and it becomes abundantly clear that as the ATC controller he cannot vouch for the FBI Flight Path. Specifically, he said it may be correct, but that is because it falls within the miles-long range of possible points on his radar screen. Now for those who care to look, so too does a Western Flight Path.

So here we are. We have settled the question about what Ammerman saw that night and what that tells us about the flight path. Truth be told, it tells us little about whether the FBI Flight Path is correct, or the Western Flight Path is correct. How can it? After all, his radar display did not account for a level of precision that could identify a jet 500 feet, or 1000 feet, or even 10,000 feet one way or the other.

Now let's get back to the others who apparently can attest to the precise location of 305.

Where is testimony from the F-106 pilots or T-33 pilot claiming to know the precise location of 305? Here's the answer...there won't be.

How about the Portland Tower personnel who can attest to the precise location of 305? Well, apparently there is someone who thinks the jet was further east than the FBI thought. OK, so who is this person? What makes this person think the FBI f'd up in the other direction? Is it at all possible that this unnamed person is just flat out wrong?

Now let's talk about George Harrison. What information and data did he possess that enabled him to precisely identify where 305 was when DB Cooper jumped? How can we measure the veracity of this data if we haven't seen it? How much tolerance was built into this data and results?

How was the FBI Flight Path actually put together by the Air Force and by whom? What data was used? Is there some way to get our hands on this data? Simply coughing up an FBI document that references SAGE radar means little at this point. After all, how do we know that SAGE was involved at all? Who specifically from the Air Force explained to the FBI that SAGE was used? Has it not occurred to anyone that perhaps the comment in the FBI document about SAGE being utilized was incorrect? Have we not all read several FBI documents with similar errors?

In closing, one thing I can say with certainty is that the evidence doesn't lie. It cannot be wrong. The placard was found west of the FBI Flight Path, the money was found on Tena Bar, and nothing has been found in the FBI search area (or near it) after nearly 48 years.
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2706 on: August 23, 2019, 10:10:33 AM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.

What is wrong with what I wrote above?

This info [the radar data] was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR.

Problems:

1.  According to Cliff, as quoted by EU, the accuracy of the radar data in the Portland area was plus or minus several miles.

2.  Did the FDR record VOR radials, DME distances, GMT, aircraft headings, altitudes, winds aloft speeds and directions, and other information useful in calculating a ground track?  How accurate could the FDR data be read?  I'll bet there are some big time problems here.

3.  Neither EU nor I have claimed that the airliner was more than about 3 Nautical Miles outside an 8 Nautical Mile wide airway.  Is the above data accurate enough to show such a relatively small distance?

4.  Finally, where is Crawford, WA?  Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.  Kermit, is Crawford anywhere close to the Portland REI store?

As a matter of fact, I know exactly where Crawford, Wa is located. First off it’s not a city but a area know as Crawford. For your information, Portland, Oregon has about 95 districts within its boundaries! Crawford is part of the Venersborg CDP. It’s at Latitude 45.803 longitude 122.485. Elevation 479. It’s not that far from where I have calculated Cooper’s possible LZ in the Battleground or Orchards area. The person I bought my present home from resides in that general area.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2707 on: August 23, 2019, 03:03:57 PM »
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Nonetheless, we are faced once again with the $64,000 question: How exactly did the Air Force plot this flight path and with what data? After all, the path they plotted is very precise.

Once again:
The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system. The TAG team was formed. This info was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR. 

This has all been known and on the table for years.  ;)

Georger,

If you can duplicate the flight path as you describe above, why don't you work up a technical paper for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Journal of Aircraft?  You could become world famous.  In real life, the situation is a bit more difficult than you describe.

How are you coming along on the placard free fall analysis?  I am eagerly awaiting your post on that.

Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.

What is wrong with what I wrote above?

This info [the radar data] was shared with the TAG test team consisting of AF and NWA engineers (and FBI personnel) and 305 flight engineer Anderson, who tested all of this further, including an analysis of the FDR.

Problems:

1.  According to Cliff, as quoted by EU, the accuracy of the radar data in the Portland area was plus or minus several miles.

2.  Did the FDR record VOR radials, DME distances, GMT, aircraft headings, altitudes, winds aloft speeds and directions, and other information useful in calculating a ground track?  How accurate could the FDR data be read?  I'll bet there are some big time problems here.

3.  Neither EU nor I have claimed that the airliner was more than about 3 Nautical Miles outside an 8 Nautical Mile wide airway.  Is the above data accurate enough to show such a relatively small distance?

4.  Finally, where is Crawford, WA?  Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.  Kermit, is Crawford anywhere close to the Portland REI store?

So you acknowledge your west path is dependent on 'loopholes'. All +/- errors favor your west path version only - can't possibly favor anything else! The money is at Tena Bar ONLY because there was a west path and a dz that allowed money to be at Tena Bar, and nowhere else, and no other mechanism for delivery. All roads must lead to Rome. And partridge in a pear tree too. No other options happened or can happen.

You might have said, if you were fair:  The equal signs on Cliff's screen make it obvious there was built-in error in all of Cliff's observations/decisions. A fair person might ask: so the radar data must be more accurate than Cliff's ability to resolve positions on his screen - yes/no ? - and what are the implications of that.

Cliff has opened new ground here, which needs further examination .... obviously you have all the answers.  :congrats:

Georger, I suggest that you read EU's post above related to Cliff's discussion about the radar image on his screen.

I am getting a bit tired of EU's reports and interpretations of Ammerman, etc. It is past time for Ammerman to go public and speak for himself! Instead we get these daily bytes from The Prophets of Ammerman', with truck loads of moral advice attached! And claims of technical/professional/electoral superiority attached!

One large point you are missing is the original 'FBI Search map', socalled, is a probability map of estimates for where and when Cooper jumped. If Ammerman was going to dispute that map where has he been for the last fifty years!  According to EU, Cliff has never even seen that map before! Not until EU sent him a copy a day ago. We sent him a copy of the map in 2010. Tom Kaye referred him to that map in 2009? Others have interviewed Ammerman also! Until EU came along, Ammerman has never deviated from his central message: 305 never left V23.

What you and EU seem to be doing is replacing the radar tapes (primary evidence) which you can't get and are pissed off about in your failed FOIA requests, with the 'memory of the controller' (Cliff Ammerman). But we don't even get to hear this from Cliff himself. Everything from Ammerman is coming through the filter of Eric Ulis and you! We don't even get to question Cliff directly! We must rely on Ulis and you, as the spokesmen for Clifford Ammerman!  :-\   

What you and EU are doing isn't science. This is politics.

You and EU are simply recycling old concerns and questions. You can't put new wine in old skins!     
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:04:27 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2708 on: August 23, 2019, 08:03:44 PM »
Disagreeing with a conclusion doesn't mean someone is a "hater". That's a Blevins comment...

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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2709 on: August 23, 2019, 08:16:07 PM »
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Disagreeing with a conclusion doesn't mean someone is a "hater". That's a Blevins comment...

post removed

The ultimate insult. Equating anything I say to Blevins. But that's okay, as I said in the "offending" post, no one defines me.

I stand by my post. A few people have made a cottage industry out of attacking me on a personal level through a combination of outright lies, condescending rhetoric, and petty name calling. You don't want to challenge me on that point.

The acts and the language are pathetic.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2710 on: August 23, 2019, 08:25:46 PM »
I'm not challenging anything. The reference I seen was one Robert uses often. It doesn't imply you are blens by the way......I just don't like that term.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 08:35:34 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2711 on: August 23, 2019, 08:57:34 PM »
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Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.
Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.

As a matter of fact, I know exactly where Crawford, Wa is located. First off it’s not a city but a area know as Crawford. For your information, Portland, Oregon has about 95 districts within its boundaries! Crawford is part of the Venersborg CDP. It’s at Latitude 45.803 longitude 122.485. Elevation 479. It’s not that far from where I have calculated Cooper’s possible LZ in the Battleground or Orchards area. The person I bought my present home from resides in that general area.


Kermit, can you give me more details relative to local landmarks of where Crawford is. I'd like to add this dimension to my road trip along "Flight Path Highway - SR 503" BTW, would you like to come along? You could add a lot to the commentary.

I see that Venersborg is a few miles north of Hockinson - kind of half-way between Hockinson and Amboy. Is that half-way area where Crawford is? Can your friend shed any light on the new FBI LZ that they established there in 1975. Do folks know that is where the Feds are saying DB Cooper landed? Did anyone ever see any FBI agents look for DB Cooper there? Etc....
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:02:20 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2712 on: August 23, 2019, 11:25:43 PM »
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Does anyone know where Crawford, WA is located?  Even National Geographic's seamless topographical maps don't seem to have it.  Its location or GPS coordinates would be appreciated.
Someone must know where it is?  Maybe Kermit knows.

As a matter of fact, I know exactly where Crawford, Wa is located. First off it’s not a city but a area know as Crawford. For your information, Portland, Oregon has about 95 districts within its boundaries! Crawford is part of the Venersborg CDP. It’s at Latitude 45.803 longitude 122.485. Elevation 479. It’s not that far from where I have calculated Cooper’s possible LZ in the Battleground or Orchards area. The person I bought my present home from resides in that general area.


Kermit, can you give me more details relative to local landmarks of where Crawford is. I'd like to add this dimension to my road trip along "Flight Path Highway - SR 503" BTW, would you like to come along? You could add a lot to the commentary.

I see that Venersborg is a few miles north of Hockinson - kind of half-way between Hockinson and Amboy. Is that half-way area where Crawford is? Can your friend shed any light on the new FBI LZ that they established there in 1975. Do folks know that is where the Feds are saying DB Cooper landed? Did anyone ever see any FBI agents look for DB Cooper there? Etc....

Is this what 99 and Kermit are talking about? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Note the map is adjustable. Looks to me like its in your trip zone?  Battle Ground is nearby ... Cedars on Salmon Creek ... Its below Ariel, Amboy, and north of Brush Prairie-Orchards-Hockinson. I found these doing a Google search on Crawford, WA.

Who is saying the Feds said Cooper landed there in 75? After the conference?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 11:50:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2713 on: Today at 12:13:45 AM »
Crawford, WA ??
« Last Edit: Today at 12:14:09 AM by georger »