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[Lynn]

The radar operator should be taken seriously. they do there job all day long, the same for pilots. I fail to see any trauma in any of the pilots. I can't say that for the stews. none of these people are to be believed to have short memories. they are trained for these events.

The radar operator gives a location that is pretty consistent with the rest of the evidence. they show a jump map around the 8:12 area on the map. different statements show consistencies in the locations surrounding the map. even mentioning being on the east side of an airway.

What is not clear is the oscillation and pressure bump. Carr believes they might of mistaken them. then you read in the 302's they claim an oscillation and pressure bump together. then you have a statement from the pilots of 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper that gives a range of 8:15 which is where Scholl's airfield is located.

I would also go by the radar operators' location first because they have the equipment to tell them the location, but the question was whether the pilots saw any lights. Neither reported that. Rataczak did mention the suburbs, but that doesn't prove he was right. I'm not sure where the 8:13 specification came from. I also can only find reference to 5-10 minutes after last contact with DBC.

[Shutter]

This document states the last contact and the jump to be 10 minutes later. that's the 8:15 location.

[Lynn]

This document states the last contact and the jump to be 10 minutes later. that's the 8:15 location.

I can find nothing that would locate the time at 8:13. Time is hard to estimate when you're under pressure, but most people have a "feel" for 10 mins. I feel more comfortable with the 8:15 if the radio ops confirm this. There's nothing in the onboard interviews to suggest otherwise. Where did 8:13 even come from? The miasma around this case, OMG.

[Shutter]

why are you saying 8:13. did I misquote this time?

[Lynn]

why are you saying 8:13. did I misquote this time?

No, 8:13 is the time I have seen given as "best guess" on so many threads, but I don't know where it ever came from. 8:15 seems to match up better with the radar ops.

[Shutter]

I posted a 302 page which I first thought was in reference to them speaking about 305. it turns out to be the chase plane that is doing the veering and right turn. this is where the radar operator gives a ground location. believed to be the radar operator.

The location is on the sectional map and does show a parachute.

[georger]

I posted a 302 page which I first thought was in reference to them speaking about 305. it turns out to be the chase plane that is doing the veering and right turn. this is where the radar operator gives a ground location. believed to be the radar operator.

The location is on the sectional map and does show a parachute.

I think this is the best answer possible and the best corroborating evidence to date. The whole mission of the F106 pilots was to locate and track 305 ... and the same for the T33 pilot later. It's too bad we don't have the full transcripts of these pilots. R2 described to me how he took great care lining up an intercept between the T33 and 305 for an intercept south of Portland near Lake Oswego,  during the period 305 was about to cross the Columbia. I have no doubt the F106 pilots knew exactly what 305 was doing and where it was and the same for the T33 pilot once he made contact with 305 south of Portland.

The problem with all of this is it creates a gap between the best estimate of when and where Cooper bailed, and money later surfacing at Tina Bar. This goes directly to Tom's page where he says 'there is a part of the story we just don't know'. We just don't know what happened and how events unfolded from this point. And time is a factor in this whole matter! There are time limits on lab testing. Evidence can't sit forever! And several lab tests that could have been done on the money in 1980 are now close to expiring and becoming unreliable or impossible! And if officials aren't aware of that fact then people at the FBI lab are very aware of that fact. Choices people make do have consequences..       

[Robert99]

I posted a 302 page which I first thought was in reference to them speaking about 305. it turns out to be the chase plane that is doing the veering and right turn. this is where the radar operator gives a ground location. believed to be the radar operator.

The location is on the sectional map and does show a parachute.

I think this is the best answer possible and the best corroborating evidence to date. The whole mission of the F106 pilots was to locate and track 305 ... and the same for the T33 pilot later. It's too bad we don't have the full transcripts of these pilots. R2 described to me how he took great care lining up an intercept between the T33 and 305 for an intercept south of Portland near Lake Oswego,  during the period 305 was about to cross the Columbia. I have no doubt the F106 pilots knew exactly what 305 was doing and where it was and the same for the T33 pilot once he made contact with 305 south of Portland.

The problem with all of this is it creates a gap between the best estimate of when and where Cooper bailed, and money later surfacing at Tina Bar. This goes directly to Tom's page where he says 'there is a part of the story we just don't know'. We just don't know what happened and how events unfolded from this point. And time is a factor in this whole matter! There are time limits on lab testing. Evidence can't sit forever! And several lab tests that could have been done on the money in 1980 are now close to expiring and becoming unreliable or impossible! And if officials aren't aware of that fact then people at the FBI lab are very aware of that fact. Choices people make do have consequences..       

Georger,

FYI Lake Oswego is about 15 or 20 miles south of the Columbia River.  Based on your statement above, the F-106s activities north of the Columbia are meaningless.

Did R2 tell you what those red marks on the FBI map mean?

Also FYI, there were probably several other controllers and the most senior people at the Seattle ATC facility assisting R2 and/or looking over his shoulder during this time.  A controller does not work in isolation during events such as this.   

[georger]

I posted a 302 page which I first thought was in reference to them speaking about 305. it turns out to be the chase plane that is doing the veering and right turn. this is where the radar operator gives a ground location. believed to be the radar operator.

The location is on the sectional map and does show a parachute.

I think this is the best answer possible and the best corroborating evidence to date. The whole mission of the F106 pilots was to locate and track 305 ... and the same for the T33 pilot later. It's too bad we don't have the full transcripts of these pilots. R2 described to me how he took great care lining up an intercept between the T33 and 305 for an intercept south of Portland near Lake Oswego,  during the period 305 was about to cross the Columbia. I have no doubt the F106 pilots knew exactly what 305 was doing and where it was and the same for the T33 pilot once he made contact with 305 south of Portland.

The problem with all of this is it creates a gap between the best estimate of when and where Cooper bailed, and money later surfacing at Tina Bar. This goes directly to Tom's page where he says 'there is a part of the story we just don't know'. We just don't know what happened and how events unfolded from this point. And time is a factor in this whole matter! There are time limits on lab testing. Evidence can't sit forever! And several lab tests that could have been done on the money in 1980 are now close to expiring and becoming unreliable or impossible! And if officials aren't aware of that fact then people at the FBI lab are very aware of that fact. Choices people make do have consequences..       

Georger,

FYI Lake Oswego is about 15 or 20 miles south of the Columbia River.  Based on your statement above, the F-106s activities north of the Columbia are meaningless.

Did R2 tell you what those red marks on the FBI map mean?

Also FYI, there were probably several other controllers and the most senior people at the Seattle ATC facility assisting R2 and/or looking over his shoulder during this time.  A controller does not work in isolation during events such as this.

No. 

[Lynn]

I posted a 302 page which I first thought was in reference to them speaking about 305. it turns out to be the chase plane that is doing the veering and right turn. this is where the radar operator gives a ground location. believed to be the radar operator.

The location is on the sectional map and does show a parachute.

Thanks, Shutter, and apologies if this is any imposition, but could you post/repost  that portion of the sectional map or link to where it can be found? My initial post re: this was more to do with whether the initial interviews had the pilots mentioning sub/urban lights (which they don't) and BR's reference to suburbs. I'm inclined to think that the last paragraph, confusing when the parachutes came on and the passengers went off, was more a misunderstanding by the interviewer or transcriber, as BR doesn't make the same flub in later interviews anywhere. The time of the pressure bump is only estimated as 5-10 mins after the last contact at 8:05, but for some reason over the years 8:13 pm has continued to pop up in reference to the jump time and I've been pulling hair to figure out where that originates. 8:15 syncs up better with this 302. Thank you so much for that 302 page ref!

[Robert99]

I posted a 302 page which I first thought was in reference to them speaking about 305. it turns out to be the chase plane that is doing the veering and right turn. this is where the radar operator gives a ground location. believed to be the radar operator.

The location is on the sectional map and does show a parachute.

Thanks, Shutter, and apologies if this is any imposition, but could you post/repost  that portion of the sectional map or link to where it can be found? My initial post re: this was more to do with whether the initial interviews had the pilots mentioning sub/urban lights (which they don't) and BR's reference to suburbs. I'm inclined to think that the last paragraph, confusing when the parachutes came on and the passengers went off, was more a misunderstanding by the interviewer or transcriber, as BR doesn't make the same flub in later interviews anywhere. The time of the pressure bump is only estimated as 5-10 mins after the last contact at 8:05, but for some reason over the years 8:13 pm has continued to pop up in reference to the jump time and I've been pulling hair to figure out where that originates. 8:15 syncs up better with this 302. Thank you so much for that 302 page ref!

If you don't think the pilots saw the lights or glow from the lights of the Portland/Vancouver area, just exactly what do you think they saw?  You seem to forget that they were at 10,000 feet above an overcast at 5000 feet with several cloud layers below that.  Also it was raining in the Portland/Vancouver area and that would further restrict visibility below the clouds/overcast.

[Shutter]

They apparently made two DZ maps. it shows the jump possibly above Lake Merwin and to the 8:15 location which is just past Battleground and in the area where the parachute is noted on the sectional map. there is no link to it. nobody ever looked the position up as far as I know. you can see it on the flight path map.

My question concerning the lights was the fact of never seeing the actual quote from the pilots. I remember Jo speaking a lot about it so I was always ignoring it. I've read it numerous times on threads but no document...

[Robert99]

They apparently made two DZ maps. it shows the jump possibly above Lake Merwin and to the 8:15 location which is just past Battleground and in the area where the parachute is noted on the sectional map. there is no link to it. nobody ever looked the position up as far as I know. you can see it on the flight path map.

My question concerning the lights was the fact of never seeing the actual quote from the pilots. I remember Jo speaking a lot about it so I was always ignoring it. I've read it numerous times on threads but no document...

I've seen the quote about the lights any number of places also.  But there is no possible way that they could have had visual contact with the ground under the conditions that then existed.

[georger]

They apparently made two DZ maps. it shows the jump possibly above Lake Merwin and to the 8:15 location which is just past Battleground and in the area where the parachute is noted on the sectional map. there is no link to it. nobody ever looked the position up as far as I know. you can see it on the flight path map.

My question concerning the lights was the fact of never seeing the actual quote from the pilots. I remember Jo speaking a lot about it so I was always ignoring it. I've read it numerous times on threads but no document...

Isnt there a quote by Ckret about Rat seeing the lights of Vancouver coming up? I havent checked the Ckret files to see if its there.

[Robert99]

They apparently made two DZ maps. it shows the jump possibly above Lake Merwin and to the 8:15 location which is just past Battleground and in the area where the parachute is noted on the sectional map. there is no link to it. nobody ever looked the position up as far as I know. you can see it on the flight path map.

My question concerning the lights was the fact of never seeing the actual quote from the pilots. I remember Jo speaking a lot about it so I was always ignoring it. I've read it numerous times on threads but no document...

Isnt there a quote by Ckret about Rat seeing the lights of Vancouver coming up? I havent checked the Ckret files to see if its there.

Ckret said something about them being in the Portland suburbs but I don't remember the rest of his statement.