Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 742342 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4005 on: November 30, 2017, 05:31:53 PM »
Yes, they were removed, and sheet metal was applied to the permanent stairs leading to the cabin. the cargo, and jumpers would slide down the sheet metal and out the back..it would be pretty hard tossing large cargo boxes out the back with the stairs in the way...it would take them out rather quickly...
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4006 on: November 30, 2017, 07:22:31 PM »
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R99 wrote:
'Apparently, all of the Air America 727s had to lower the stairs at the rear of the aircraft in the same manner that they were lowered while on the ground."

The SAT 727 drop tests over Thailand appear to have the stairs removed. I conclude this by looking at the videos. Agree?

377

Agreed. But this doesn't mean the stairs were always removed for drops.  The point is that no actions had to be taken in the cockpit to lower the stairs.
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4007 on: November 30, 2017, 07:23:38 PM »
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Yes, they were removed, and sheet metal was applied to the permanent stairs leading to the cabin. the cargo, and jumpers would slide down the sheet metal and out the back..it would be pretty hard tossing large cargo boxes out the back with the stairs in the way...it would take them out rather quickly...

Remember that the stairs were not removed for the FBI drop tests and those boxes just went down the steps.  Also, the USAF paratroopers walked down to the bottom step.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 07:25:25 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4008 on: November 30, 2017, 07:39:59 PM »
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R99 wrote:
'Apparently, all of the Air America 727s had to lower the stairs at the rear of the aircraft in the same manner that they were lowered while on the ground."

The SAT 727 drop tests over Thailand appear to have the stairs removed. I conclude this by looking at the videos. Agree?

377

Agreed. But this doesn't mean the stairs were always removed for drops.  The point is that no actions had to be taken in the cockpit to lower the stairs.

Agree, but I see no reason to keep stairs installed on 727 drop ships. Adds no value and complicates/impedes air drop ops hugely. Had Cooper been part of or privy to the SAT 727 air drops, it's possible that he would have no idea how to lower the stairs in flight because stairs had been removed. Even for casual sport jumping the WFFC DC 9 and 727 jumpships both removed the stairs. They served no useful purpose for parachute ops and just added weight. It was soooo easy exiting through a clean snag free opening "into the blast"  ;).

377

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4009 on: November 30, 2017, 07:41:47 PM »
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Yes, they were removed, and sheet metal was applied to the permanent stairs leading to the cabin. the cargo, and jumpers would slide down the sheet metal and out the back..it would be pretty hard tossing large cargo boxes out the back with the stairs in the way...it would take them out rather quickly...

Remember that the stairs were not removed for the FBI drop tests and those boxes just went down the steps.  Also, the USAF paratroopers walked down to the bottom step.

that's a controlled test to replicate the crime. they guided the sled down with rope. you couldn't jump from the plane while inside with the stairs attached, pretty risky, nor could a ton of cargo drop out without taking the stairs with it. the stairs would hinder any type of cargo drop, jump, unless they used the stairs...the first test failed and went down too fast, so they used rope on the second attempt..

the Asia drop was modified for cargo & jumps. that's why they removed them so the cargo could get out, and the jumpers could slide right out as seen in the video..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4010 on: November 30, 2017, 07:55:05 PM »
see photo's....
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4011 on: November 30, 2017, 08:34:08 PM »
Page 150 of Grays new files...

In approx. 1964 or 1965, the Boeing company was contacted by a firm known as Air America of Washington, D.C. Air America contracted with Boeing to conduct experiments with the Boeing 727 dropping boxes and crates from the rear door of the 727 while the aircraft was in flight. For the experiments , the rear stairway was removed  and sacks filled with sand boxes were dropped out the rear doorway. Air America contacted Boeing again in 1966 or 1967 and requested the further experiments  in air drops be conducted with the 727..

The purpose of the tests were being hired to drop food in countries in the far east..
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 09:17:42 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4012 on: December 01, 2017, 12:01:05 AM »
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Yes, they were removed, and sheet metal was applied to the permanent stairs leading to the cabin. the cargo, and jumpers would slide down the sheet metal and out the back..it would be pretty hard tossing large cargo boxes out the back with the stairs in the way...it would take them out rather quickly...

Remember that the stairs were not removed for the FBI drop tests and those boxes just went down the steps.  Also, the USAF paratroopers walked down to the bottom step.

Whoever Dan Cooper was, I think a newbie might do exactly what Dan did. First observe the rear stairs come down, assume they can be lowered in flight somehow (probably have to be lowered from the cockpit (as a safety measure), and that one could escape by parachute through the hole. Very simple logic one could observe sitting in an airport watching 727's coming and going. Then on board, he put the issue into Tina's hands first. His first move was to turn to Tina for the solution assuming she knew the procedure.. They could not get the stairs down! He sends Tina forward. Now he probably sees or reads the operation placard. He tries to follow those instructions and at length he succeeds. (Then tears the placard off and throw it out the door?) Does the time and place of the placard match the timing of events just described?   
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:03:18 AM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4013 on: December 01, 2017, 12:05:02 AM »
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Page 150 of Grays new files...

In approx. 1964 or 1965, the Boeing company was contacted by a firm known as Air America of Washington, D.C. Air America contracted with Boeing to conduct experiments with the Boeing 727 dropping boxes and crates from the rear door of the 727 while the aircraft was in flight. For the experiments , the rear stairway was removed  and sacks filled with sand boxes were dropped out the rear doorway. Air America contacted Boeing again in 1966 or 1967 and requested the further experiments  in air drops be conducted with the 727..

The purpose of the tests were being hired to drop food in countries in the far east..

You didn't need new and expensive airline aircraft to drop food in southeast Asia.  There were jillions of cheap civilian and ex-military propeller aircraft that could do the job just as easy, or even better, at a small fraction of the cost.

The food drop story was probably just a cover story.  Also, I doubt very much that each of the 727s that Air America bought was limited to a single mission, unless it was just carrying passengers. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:06:57 AM by Robert99 »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4014 on: December 01, 2017, 12:15:36 AM »
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Yes, they were removed, and sheet metal was applied to the permanent stairs leading to the cabin. the cargo, and jumpers would slide down the sheet metal and out the back..it would be pretty hard tossing large cargo boxes out the back with the stairs in the way...it would take them out rather quickly...

Remember that the stairs were not removed for the FBI drop tests and those boxes just went down the steps.  Also, the USAF paratroopers walked down to the bottom step.

Whoever Dan Cooper was, I think a newbie might do exactly what Dan did. First observe the rear stairs come down, assume they can be lowered in flight somehow (probably have to be lowered from the cockpit (as a safety measure), and that one could escape by parachute through the hole. Very simple logic one could observe sitting in an airport watching 727's coming and going. Then on board, he put the issue into Tina's hands first. His first move was to turn to Tina for the solution assuming she knew the procedure.. They could not get the stairs down! He sends Tina forward. Now he probably sees or reads the operation placard. He tries to follow those instructions and at length he succeeds. (Then tears the placard off and throw it out the door?) Does the time and place of the placard match the timing of events just described?   

Generally speaking (I don't have access to a map at this moment), the placard came off in the Woodland area just a few miles northwest of Tina Bar.

You are correct in that Cooper could have observed the stairs being lowered in flight during the tests by Boeing, in southeast Asia, or elsewhere.

Both the flap setting, landing gear position, and airspeed not to exceed, could have been estimated by Cooper based on his experience with aircraft other than 727s.
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4015 on: December 01, 2017, 05:10:07 AM »
Been getting timed out of the system -- I've typed a couple of long PM's or posts and I go to send but the log on screen pops up.  Looks like I got kicked out while typing the posts.  I officially and properly logged in at the beginning.  Do those posts get archived or saved somewhere, or are they lost forever?  Thanks.  Meyer
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4016 on: December 01, 2017, 07:26:01 AM »
I've mentioned over the years it's possible Cooper could of been a frequent flyer and put two and two together while watching from the airport. the knowledge could of been obtained by asking questions. it was pretty easy to get around the airport in 71 vs today. is this the way it happened, I haven't a clue. I think a janitor could gain a lot of information while working at NASA. I fly my simulator but it doesn't make me a pilot.

Was it a employee, two entries, so far in the files discount any possibility of one of there own..political reasons, I'm not so sure, they usually make that very clear at the beginning. a grudge was brought out by Tina, or it would of never been known. it appears that money wasn't the only reason based on his statement.
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4017 on: December 01, 2017, 12:46:40 PM »
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I've mentioned over the years it's possible Cooper could of been a frequent flyer and put two and two together while watching from the airport. the knowledge could of been obtained by asking questions. it was pretty easy to get around the airport in 71 vs today. is this the way it happened, I haven't a clue. I think a janitor could gain a lot of information while working at NASA. I fly my simulator but it doesn't make me a pilot.

Was it a employee, two entries, so far in the files discount any possibility of one of there own..political reasons, I'm not so sure, they usually make that very clear at the beginning. a grudge was brought out by Tina, or it would of never been known. it appears that money wasn't the only reason based on his statement.

That is the whole reason I advise caution especially when jumping to the conclusion Cooper was a highly skilled vet. Maybe he was. There is just no smoking gun (yet) that proves that connection, imho. 
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4018 on: December 01, 2017, 01:48:21 PM »
Cooper was 727 savvy. The flap, speed, gear and altitude commands are clear evidence of that. He wasn't just a casual airline passenger. They don't know the difference between a flap, spoiler or elevator.

Betting your freedom on the ASSUMPTION that the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight is lunacy. The squat switches on the landing gear struts are used to disable many things that work on the ground but are not intended to work in the air for safety reasons, such as thrust reversers.

I owned a 727 manual in 1971. It was silent on the operability of the airstairs in flight. I never would have assumed that I could escape through the ventral airstair in flight. I'd have assumed that some interlock controlled by the squat switches would have prevented that.

377
 

Offline JLa

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4019 on: December 01, 2017, 02:29:35 PM »
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Cooper was 727 savvy. The flap, speed, gear and altitude commands are clear evidence of that. He wasn't just a casual airline passenger. They don't know the difference between a flap, spoiler or elevator.

Betting your freedom on the ASSUMPTION that the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight is lunacy. The squat switches on the landing gear struts are used to disable many things that work on the ground but are not intended to work in the air for safety reasons, such as thrust reversers.

I owned a 727 manual in 1971. It was silent on the operability of the airstairs in flight. I never would have assumed that I could escape through the ventral airstair in flight. I'd have assumed that some interlock controlled by the squat switches would have prevented that.

377

I agree with 377 here. I also want to throw into the loop another aspect here; DBC's demeanor. He appeared cool, calm, collected and no statements by any witness that I have read makes me think that he was not in control the entire time or panicked. I just do not think someone without either (and I hate to use this word) "training" or at least experience can hold it together for that long. Especially someone whose getting ready to jump out of an aircraft in late November, carrying more baggage than J. Edgar Hoover and oh yeah...in a business suit. Now I do not want to suggest that he was some super trooper, I just believe the evidence lines up for me to believe that he wasn't "Billy the Businessman" who collects a crapton of air-miles.

Separate question. Did they even have "air-miles" in 1971?

Oh...and I also agree with 377 that he owned a 727 manual in 1971!  ;D