Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 261403 times)

Online georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Thanked: 312 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2655 on: October 05, 2020, 12:39:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fingerprints, continued:

A couple of things:

1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.

Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.

Hence, this leads to a second question:

2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?

Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.

BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...

Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.

Or do they.... ?

Add this 302 below to your confusion. Partial prints! "Norjak partials currently on file..."

Where do you get the idea prints werent being compared with military prints of suspects? Thats a false accusation. They were when available. Dozens of 302s document that. Until the govt document center at (St Louis ?) burned down - there are 302s about that and what recourse the FBI had for getting military prints after that! You cite two examples and say: Lazy FBI agents .... a spin job ?   

I also have received mail. About Peterson's 302 or should I say his 'newspaper article' pasted on a 302 page ?  The author says "Peterson's name is even redacted so there is no way to tell who they are talking about. It does not name Peterson." Another writes: "I have also seen Boeing references in the 302s but few names and not Peterson".          ...      But now is not the time or place. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 01:32:39 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2656 on: October 05, 2020, 09:38:29 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
i'm new to the DBC forum so hello fellow Cooperites

Welcome and hold on tight...
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline fcastle866

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Thanked: 58 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2657 on: October 05, 2020, 11:16:16 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fingerprints, continued:

A couple of things:

1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.

Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.

Hence, this leads to a second question:

2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?

Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.

BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...

Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.

Or do they.... ?

Add this 302 below to your confusion. Partial prints! "Norjak partials currently on file..."

Where do you get the idea prints werent being compared with military prints of suspects? Thats a false accusation. They were when available. Dozens of 302s document that. Until the govt document center at (St Louis ?) burned down - there are 302s about that and what recourse the FBI had for getting military prints after that! You cite two examples and say: Lazy FBI agents .... a spin job ?   

I also have received mail. About Peterson's 302 or should I say his 'newspaper article' pasted on a 302 page ?  The author says "Peterson's name is even redacted so there is no way to tell who they are talking about. It does not name Peterson." Another writes: "I have also seen Boeing references in the 302s but few names and not Peterson".          ...      But now is not the time or place.

Has anyone seen anything in the 302's that talks about taking prints from the other passengers to rule them out?  I'm imagining a file full of fingerprints that could now be loaded into a criminal or other type database to see what comes up.  However, this would still require law enforcement to rule out a lot of people who were on that plane that day, or even in previous days.  That is standard crime scene investigation, but I have not heard of it in this case.

I watched a show about the mafia in New York city and the police were trying to match a palm print, and eventually did so.  It seemed that a suspect had been good about not leaving fingerprints, but had not focused on his palm print.  I've read somewhere in the 302's about palm prints and DB Cooper, possibly about him leaving one on the aft stairs when he descended.

It is still shocking to me that a man would plan this hijacking, and actually leave fingerprints behind. 
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2658 on: October 05, 2020, 11:28:20 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

It is still shocking to me that a man would plan this hijacking, and actually leave fingerprints behind.

I agree. Leaving fingerprints--or a palm print--behind borders on negligent. Negligent is not a word that I would use to describe DB Cooper.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8576
  • Thanked: 827 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2659 on: October 05, 2020, 11:28:39 AM »
I don't think a lot of the passengers were in Cooper's area. the palm print apparently was taken from the armrest on the seat. the others are partials. one document claims approx. 80 prints were found in the area. that rules out any wiping down or that many prints wouldn't of been found. they checked against the crew but not sure about all the passengers. they are pretty confident with the palm print since it's mentioned often with suspects in the 302's..in 1978 they claim the prints were not run through the system.

If Cooper was never arrested or in the military his prints are invisible..
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 11:29:39 AM by Shutter »
 

Online georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Thanked: 312 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2660 on: October 05, 2020, 02:11:40 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Fingerprints, continued:

A couple of things:

1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.

Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.

Hence, this leads to a second question:

2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?

Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.

BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...

Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.

Or do they.... ?

Add this 302 below to your confusion. Partial prints! "Norjak partials currently on file..."

Where do you get the idea prints werent being compared with military prints of suspects? Thats a false accusation. They were when available. Dozens of 302s document that. Until the govt document center at (St Louis ?) burned down - there are 302s about that and what recourse the FBI had for getting military prints after that! You cite two examples and say: Lazy FBI agents .... a spin job ?   

I also have received mail. About Peterson's 302 or should I say his 'newspaper article' pasted on a 302 page ?  The author says "Peterson's name is even redacted so there is no way to tell who they are talking about. It does not name Peterson." Another writes: "I have also seen Boeing references in the 302s but few names and not Peterson".          ...      But now is not the time or place.

Has anyone seen anything in the 302's that talks about taking prints from the other passengers to rule them out?  I'm imagining a file full of fingerprints that could now be loaded into a criminal or other type database to see what comes up.  However, this would still require law enforcement to rule out a lot of people who were on that plane that day, or even in previous days.  That is standard crime scene investigation, but I have not heard of it in this case.

I watched a show about the mafia in New York city and the police were trying to match a palm print, and eventually did so.  It seemed that a suspect had been good about not leaving fingerprints, but had not focused on his palm print.  I've read somewhere in the 302's about palm prints and DB Cooper, possibly about him leaving one on the aft stairs when he descended.

It is still shocking to me that a man would plan this hijacking, and actually leave fingerprints behind.

Yes - short answer. Of course - shortest answer. Thats common Lab practice - requirement. Anyone and everyone gets printed. With the large numbers involved automation becomes almost required. In the beginning 302s tell us all print comparisons were being done visually by hand by experienced techs and its likely several techs became the 'go to' people to do the job so a few people built up a Norjak knowledge base to do the job ...  could they write a book!!  Ask Tom Kaye about this! Lab people are where the rubber meets the road -   

Are there 302s that document this - yes but not for every possible name on a long list of people ... that opens a hole you can drive the Russian Army through to build a social narrative. And people do this every day - at forums.

Be patient.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 02:36:21 PM by georger »
 

Online georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2299
  • Thanked: 312 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2661 on: October 05, 2020, 03:49:54 PM »
Case Closed:

. . . no evidence . . . DB Cooper was anybody you want him to be. He may have even been a She! All thanks to those corrupt lazy spinnerds in the government ...

Pick the Conspiracy of your choice!  :)    The Tina Bar Money Find was a plant by the LA Lakers!

"During a conference in San Francisco in April, 1976, several West Coast Division case agents and the Bureau supervisor at that time reviewed captioned investigation. A memorandum from that conference reported that there were no quality suspects at the time and only limited physical evidence. Eyewitness identification was considered weak at that time. Nearly 10 years have passed since that conference. The conference came to the conclusion that "if COOPER was to surrender to authorities now or in the near future, it would be extremely difficult to make the case if he was uncooperative.”       
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 04:05:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Thanked: 58 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2662 on: October 06, 2020, 04:34:22 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't think a lot of the passengers were in Cooper's area. the palm print apparently was taken from the armrest on the seat. the others are partials. one document claims approx. 80 prints were found in the area. that rules out any wiping down or that many prints wouldn't of been found. they checked against the crew but not sure about all the passengers. they are pretty confident with the palm print since it's mentioned often with suspects in the 302's..in 1978 they claim the prints were not run through the system.

If Cooper was never arrested or in the military his prints are invisible..

Agreed, if he was not arrested or in the military, his prints are not likely on file.  Also, if he was in the military during the key time we all think he was, then his prints could have been destroyed in the fire at the St. Louis archives.  Even if they were not destroyed, those prints are not cataloged for search as far as I know.  The FBI would have to request prints from a specific individual.  Having seen prints from different years across different branches, I can say that I have yet to see a palm print.  The show on Netflix that I referenced is called Fear City: New York versus The Mafia.  The FBI had a palm print, but could not match the palm print to anyone because at the time they had not been taking palm prints.  They had a suspect though, and busted him on a small charge as an excuse to print him again, and this time they took his palm print.

If DB Cooper is dead, then his palm prints may be gone.  I don't know enough about palm prints though to say if a palm print has any of the same characteristics of an individual's finger prints.  I guess its possible that some law enforcement agencies took palm prints.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8576
  • Thanked: 827 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2663 on: October 06, 2020, 04:36:13 PM »
I don't know when they started but they now take palm prints. back then they would have to get them from the suspect I would assume?
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8576
  • Thanked: 827 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2664 on: October 06, 2020, 04:39:58 PM »
Though not as common or straight forward as fingerprinting, palm print identification has become an important tool in identifying criminal suspects. ... The ridges and lines in the palm are a set of unique biometric identifiers, just like in a set of fingerprints
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2665 on: October 13, 2020, 11:30:59 AM »
One of the FBI files from the late 80's references a description of Cooper which includes cigarette stains on his right hand. Is this accurate? I do not recall any description of DBC from the witnesses stating that DBC had cigarette stains on his right hand.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3767
  • Thanked: 253 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2666 on: October 13, 2020, 06:40:54 PM »
I've been wondering about that cig stain for a long time. When I entered the Vortex in 2008, serious tobacco stains on the right hand were a given - probably from Jo Weber frequent pronouncements. But I never saw any documentation on that.

Flyjack just sent me a doc that mentions cig stains on the right hand, but that's the only piece I've seen.
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2667 on: October 13, 2020, 06:52:34 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've been wondering about that cig stain for a long time. When I entered the Vortex in 2008, serious tobacco stains on the right hand were a given - probably from Jo Weber frequent pronouncements. But I never saw any documentation on that.

Flyjack just sent me a doc that mentions cig stains on the right hand, but that's the only piece I've seen.

A document providing a summary is meaningless. Anyone who has read through these documents over the years can point out myriad errors in such overviews.

What I want to see--and have never seen--is direct testimony from one of the flight attendants saying that DBC had tobacco stains anywhere. If I'm wrong I'd love to see the direct testimony because that would be very important evidence in my mind.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2668 on: October 13, 2020, 07:02:41 PM »
Another aspect that I'm very interested in is the FBI's Cooper bills.

More to the point, I have read a number of media accounts--some in the FBI files--which indicate that the FBI took 14 Cooper bills and the rest were split evenly between Brian and the insurance company.

The problem is that I have only identified 10 bills and have never seen a picture of the other four. Below is a comparison between what Larry Carr showed (I believe in 2009) and what Tom Kaye photo'd (I believe in 2008). NOTE: The bills have been moved around and even flipped onto the opposite side in some cases.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 243 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2669 on: October 14, 2020, 03:25:56 PM »
GEORGER you're not telling me anything that I don't already know. Specifically, that the FBI received 14 bills.

My question is: Where are the 14 bills?

After all, I can account for only 10 of the bills. There appear to be four missing. Why?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK