Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 247327 times)

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2520 on: May 15, 2020, 02:22:25 PM »
"I am forced to check Shutter's forum to correct Georger's lies and persistent nonsense. Shutter thinks making a false claim isn't lying... he is in denial."

* Nobody is 'forcing' FLYJACK to do anything!

FJ reads words and sees special meanings only he understands.

A passage in one of Tina's interviews reads, quote: " He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.

* FJ reads this and concludes bank-type bands = paper straps   and 'small packages' = "packets" a word FJ claims is a formal banking term everyone involved in the hijacking knew was a formal banking term. Tina could be asked today 'were there paper straps around the small packages of money? The answer is either yes or no! And Tina's words are 'small packages'. not "packets"! Tina could be asked today: "did you know packets is a formal bank term'?  All to satisfy FLYJACK's obsession with winning a debate he sees as a personal attack being conducted by me and others! Maybe by "bank type bands" Tina meant 'bank type rubber bands'? Did anyone ask her - No. FJ doesn't have to ask. He just knows what Tina meant.

Let me cite a third example and then I am going to try to close this nonsense off, or we could be here for eternity dealing with FJ's paranoid delusions.

Did Larry Carr find and talk to the bank employees that personally prepared the money for delivery to SEATAC, or not? Yes or No ? The answer is: YES.

*FJ's answer is not to discuss it and avoid it! He labels this: "Georgers strawman". He won't even admit it happened. Then he goes on to explain it, in a ludicrous flurry of thoughts and ideas telling us what the "The bank employees" actually claimed: " The bank employees claimed he randomized and rubber banded the bundles,, Larry Carr and Georger incorrectly assumed he was referring to the packets of 100 bills.. the randomized and rubber banded bundles were groups of packets.. the packets were NOT randomized, Larry Carr thought they were because he confused packets and bundles (groups of packets). The money went to Cooper in packets of 100 bills = $2000 each, those packets were rubber banded into randomized bundles. Georger can't get this, it requires he admit he has been wrong for over a decade.... "

FLY is correct. Georger can't get it. Because that is not what the bank employees said! Not what they told Larry or me. Not what the Ingrams said they found. And there is no FBI document or Interview record that says what FJ is saying .... even remotely. This is all FJ's imagination and paranoia run amuck. What FJ is saying is NOT factual history backed up by facts that anyone has shown or can even be proved!

The rest of FJ's post today is to castigate and threaten Shutter ... " The bank sent a letter to the FBI saying the money was in bank bands 100 bills = $2000 per packet.
Ralph Himmelsbach “There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.” Straps are another term for bank bands. Tosaw claimed paper bands and rubber bands.. Tina handled the money and said "bank type bands around each package". Here Georger lies.. to win an argument, he first misquotes Tina saying "bank bands" then claims "Tina meant rubber bands. She was contacted and asked." This is a lie, Tina was not contacted, this is Georger's strategy to win an argument, lying is acceptable and winning more important than pursuing the truth. After catching Georger in this lie and me requesting clarification Georger shifted to plan B.. discredit and defamation,, since then he has engaged in a long term persistent defamation campaign against me. I have recorded all of it... evidence of a long term persistent defamation campaign and Shutter is 100% legally responsible. "

FLYJACK has an agenda - it goes far beyond the Cooper case or any discussion/exploration people could have about any case. It's something personal. He attracts attention and then he doesn't want attention or any debate about what he has stirred up. These people come and they go, but it always consumes a lot of people's time.

All FJ ever had to do was try to contact Tina or SeaFirst bank employees and try to clarify what actually happened and what people meant, or did not mean ... which is what Carr tried to do. It's what Tom Kaye tried to do to get a clarification about the money story. Kaye finally posted to Dropzone in an attempt to clarify the bands vs straps debate ... his words are still there ... but FJ has never mentioned that, if he even knows about it! Maybe FJ will now add Kaye to his list of liars and people who are WRONG ?

to be continued .... Flyjack will see to that!  :rofl:


« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 02:48:20 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2521 on: May 15, 2020, 02:38:14 PM »
All of this between the two forums needs to stop..I don't believe Fly has any mental issues so that remark will be removed.

Also, a false claim can be several things intentional and non-intentional. non-intentional would not be lying..
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2522 on: May 15, 2020, 02:41:44 PM »
Hancock says some interesting things about Flo:

Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying ...

Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle. 

Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.

Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker.

*The issue of destination is usually stated as occurring immediately after the money and parachutes had been brought on board. (see crew testimony). Hancock reports above:  Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft. .... so evidently Cooper had already told Flo they were going to Mexico even before Flo took Cooper's note to the cockpit. This may have influenced Scott and shaped his conversation when he reports at 3:13 "Wants money in negotiable American currency ..."  Flo probably told Scott 'he wants to go to Mexico'. In any event it's Scott choice of language, not necessarily Cooper's.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2523 on: May 15, 2020, 02:42:05 PM »
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The matter of fact should be what is written on the note that came straight from Cooper's mouth....

Cooper wrote the original hijacking note which Flo took to the cockpit so it came straight from Cooper's mouth.  Cooper asked for and got that note back.  The other notes that Flo wrote while she was in the cockpit came from Cooper thru Tina so they are relatively close to his mouth also.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2524 on: May 15, 2020, 02:43:46 PM »
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The matter of fact should be what is written on the note that came straight from Cooper's mouth....

Cooper wrote the original hijacking note which Flo took to the cockpit so it came straight from Cooper's mouth.  Cooper asked for and got that note back.  The other notes that Flo wrote while she was in the cockpit came from Cooper thru Tina so they are relatively close to his mouth also.

Degrees of separation. It's a simple fact. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2525 on: May 15, 2020, 02:48:20 PM »
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All of this between the two forums needs to stop..I don't believe Fly has any mental issues so that remark will be removed.

Also, a false claim can be several things intentional and non-intentional. non-intentional would not be lying..

Also, a false claim can be several things intentional and non-intentional. non-intentional would not be lying..

- - -  thats what people have been trying to tell FLY for years! - - - I mean Larry and others made good faith efforts to resolve straps vs bands. FJ discounts and then ignores all of that. Its simple historical fact at stake! It either happened or it didnt happen! People either found and contacted bank employees, Brian and his mother, and Tina ... or they didn't! I was there for Christ's sake!  I was right in the middle of it waiting for answers with other people waiting on answers, so we could get the new money analysis going after Brian shipping money and folders. There was a lot at stake! 

I mean we are sitting here with thousands of dollars at stake, people in four labs waiting, and suddenly this bs about straps vs bands comes up out of nowhere! Everyone waits .... primarily on Larry ... then I get involved to try and speed things up . . . and now FJ says it never happened or if it did happen everyone was WRONG or LYING or whatever! 

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 02:56:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2526 on: May 15, 2020, 02:56:28 PM »
It's only lying if you are knowingly making claims that are not true and can easily be noted as false. if the money bag pops up out of nowhere and has bundles of $2,000 banded does that make someone a liar that stated several bundles of $2,000 were banded together in the bag or believed to be gathered that way? no, it just makes that person wrong..is a theory a lie?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2527 on: May 15, 2020, 03:03:10 PM »
A lot of things are in a very gray area..the bank states different bank straps were on the money...Tina did state bank type bands..then you have eye witness accounts telling a different story.

three bundles showing up miles from the path presents a problem anyway you look at this..it would take time to make different amounts and band them to make it appear to be random while on the other hand it would take a couple minutes to band different amounts of $2,000 bundles/packets/piles/cubes/wads etc. etc.

I believe Tina also said small packages and no mention of different sizes..gray area once again.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 03:05:06 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2528 on: May 15, 2020, 03:15:30 PM »
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A lot of things are in a very gray area..the bank states different bank straps were on the money...Tina did state bank type bands..then you have eye witness accounts telling a different story.

three bundles showing up miles from the path presents a problem anyway you look at this..it would take time to make different amounts and band them to make it appear to be random while on the other hand it would take a couple minutes to band different amounts of $2,000 bundles/packets/piles/cubes/wads etc. etc.

I believe Tina also said small packages and no mention of different sizes..gray area once again.

Thats right ... Tina said :  "$200,000 in cash in small bills"    Scott turns around and screws that up says:  "denomination of bills not important. "

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2529 on: May 15, 2020, 03:18:26 PM »
Here are the words used for the money by various people in the Cooper case ... this is not an exhaustive list, no 302's have been included. :

Phrase/words for the money:

Schafner interview:
Schaffner furnished 13 pages of notes which she took during the course of the flight.

Hancock interview:
a ransom note demanding $200,000 dollars in cash.
and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery
Schaffner went to the cockpit of the aircraft (with the note the hijacker had written and another list of his demands she had written as the hijacker dictated his demands to her), to advise the Captain of the plane of the situation.

Mucklow Interview1:
used a plain envelope to write out the demands of the hijacker, listing that he wanted four parachutes including two back packs and two chest packs, $200,000 in cash in small bills, and that he wanted everything by “by five o’clock”. Mucklow says that Florence Schaffner  delivered this note to the pilot’s compartment,
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.
The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her!
be delivered in a knapsack but instead it was delivered in a cloth type bank bag, which displeased him.

Mucklow2:
The hijacker later told (repeated to)  Mucklow that he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency,

Pilot Notes:
2310 -  wants money in negotiable currency to be passed & a crew member.

PI Transcript:
3:13pm     305: ….  Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination of bills not important. 
Tina:  $200,000 in cash in small bills ……  so Scott screwed that up!



 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2530 on: May 15, 2020, 03:23:19 PM »
I was talking about when she looked in the bag..she failed to say different size packages only small packages..this could be stating all the same size..it's a gray area..
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2531 on: May 15, 2020, 03:53:57 PM »
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I was talking about when she looked in the bag..she failed to say different size packages only small packages..this could be stating all the same size..it's a gray area..

He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.


Yes exactly - it fits with how the bank employee said he packaged the bills in small random sized groups, no two groups the same amount, and wrapped each group with one or more rubber bands. He is dealing with a line of money on a tray. He is packaging the bills into groups or bundles (I believe he used the word "bundles") each bundle a different amount or number of bills, with one or more rubber bands applied to each bundle. No two bundles the same amount.

The security guy said "bank type paper straps or bands" had purposely been removed long before the packaging guy even did his work making bundles, so no name of a bank would be known ... and the bills put in random order ... the whole process designed to look as if the bills had been assembled in haste with no recording or consecutive order of bills ...

Tom Kaye reports the same process from his research. Kaye posted at DZ starting 'you guys have spent enough time screwing around with how the money was packaged - he's how it happened'  ... Tom didn;t mince words.  I dont recall FJ even being at DZ when Tom intervened and posted this at DZ..

We know the facts. It has reached the point because of FJ that people are no longer willing to come back to this ancient history ... and most people dont care if FJ claims camels in Iceland packed the money using tractors! The case is closed. The only thing FJ could possibly get from his machinations is a press release in the Inquirer or some other rag. We know the facts. The FBI knows the facts. Thats all that matters. The case is closed.   

** what does matter is what the Ingrams found and saw - the state of the money as given to Cooper. Brian was pissed when this all came up suddenly but he took it in stride. We all waited on Larry's report. I finally got to talk to Brian's mother and she gave a very solid report about what they had seen at the time. The idea that any paper straps between the bills would be dissolved because of water, is nonsense. That's a red herring and laughable. It shook us up because we had planned on finding rubber band fragments and wanted to do an analysis of those - bigtime! I wont explain why - thats propriety. We had four labs including a diatom lab at UWash sitting waiting ... and it all blew up in our faces. People were very angry. Fuck it! 

     
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 04:07:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bookman Old Style

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2532 on: May 15, 2020, 10:18:23 PM »
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing.  I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website.  All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow.  In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).

The wording is confusing to me.  I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document).  However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes."  In other words, possibly even low cut boots.  Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems.  It is part of the mythology, though.  Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?

Does anyone have thoughts on this earlier post of mine?  I don't want to traffic in gender stereotypes, but in my experience, women are often more observant than men when it comes to shoes.  If Tina Mucklow said "ankle length," that doesn't sound like a loafer to me.  She also doesn't say "boot."  Could it be something like this picture I found of a 1959 Genesco steel toed work shoe, supposedly made for the US Military?  I don't mean this exact shoe, but something like it.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2533 on: May 15, 2020, 11:41:52 PM »
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing.  I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website.  All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow.  In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).

The wording is confusing to me.  I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document).  However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes."  In other words, possibly even low cut boots.  Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems.  It is part of the mythology, though.  Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?

Does anyone have thoughts on this earlier post of mine?  I don't want to traffic in gender stereotypes, but in my experience, women are often more observant than men when it comes to shoes.  If Tina Mucklow said "ankle length," that doesn't sound like a loafer to me.  She also doesn't say "boot."  Could it be something like this picture I found of a 1959 Genesco steel toed work shoe, supposedly made for the US Military?  I don't mean this exact shoe, but something like it.

I wasnt there to see them!   ;)

But FJ says Cooper stole shoes from the Heisson store: 

#61947
just now
"Cooper shoes weren't loafers, as claimed, they were laceless ankle boots..
There was a store break in the night of NORJAK in the LZ, survival rations and ciggs were taken, the shoes were a military type corrugated sole.. A commando sole was an option for many ankle boots."   
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 11:42:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2534 on: May 15, 2020, 11:47:12 PM »
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Hancock says some interesting things about Flo:

Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying ...

Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle. 

Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.

Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker.

*The issue of destination is usually stated as occurring immediately after the money and parachutes had been brought on board. (see crew testimony). Hancock reports above:  Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft. .... so evidently Cooper had already told Flo they were going to Mexico even before Flo took Cooper's note to the cockpit. This may have influenced Scott and shaped his conversation when he reports at 3:13 "Wants money in negotiable American currency ..."  Flo probably told Scott 'he wants to go to Mexico'. In any event it's Scott choice of language, not necessarily Cooper's.

Interesting point, G. Thanks.