Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 212001 times)

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2265 on: September 24, 2019, 07:07:13 PM »
With a non-steerable C9 round canopy you wouldn't have had much control over landing in or out of water. You were basically going where the wind took you.

SEALS, PJs and other special ops jumpers have way more training in water landings than ordinary sport jumpers do. I know PJs make night ocean jumps as part of recurrent training and I assume SEALS do as well.

Most sport jumpers make a couple of daylight highly supported water landings and that's the extent of their training. If you think water landings are easily survivable, read about this tragic skydiving accident. 17 skydivers exited a WW2 B 25 bomber through cloud cover to find themselves unexpectedly over Lake Erie. The awful part is that there were many boats in their landing area but few rendered assistance. The non assisting boaters thought it was a planned jump and assumed some arrangements had already been made for boat pickups. Two jumpers were picked up, 15 others drowned.

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« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:08:17 PM by 377 »
 

Online andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2266 on: September 24, 2019, 08:04:22 PM »
Mark, I have quite the collection of anecdotes from WWII about landing in water, especially from my research involving Denmark. And yes, they were lethal. Even with a Mae West, most RAF crews who parachuted into water died. Most from exposure. A few get picked up by fisherman. A few swim ashore. But mostly, landing in the sea was a death sentence. I tend to think Cooper would have died had he landed in the Columbia, whereas my father says he would want to land in the river. I'm an avid swimmer, but I haven't had the courage to swim with clothes and weights in cold water... yet.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2267 on: September 24, 2019, 08:58:50 PM »
I wonder though if there would be a different between a soldier landing in the water vs Cooper. the soldier has a lot more gear attached to him? don't know if that would tilt the scale?
 

Online andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2268 on: September 24, 2019, 10:16:35 PM »
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I wonder though if there would be a different between a soldier landing in the water vs Cooper. the soldier has a lot more gear attached to him? don't know if that would tilt the scale?

Lots of guys drowned during the Normandy invasion, but they weren't prepared (for the most part) for water landings.

In my opinion, you can't put a number on it. If Cooper was Joe Hobo Alcoholic washed up loadmaster, I would say there's no way he could survive a Columbia landing. If Cooper was an elite water polo player who loved skiing, skydiving and private insurrections against Communist regimes... different story.
 

Online Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2269 on: September 24, 2019, 10:23:05 PM »
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I wonder though if there would be a different between a soldier landing in the water vs Cooper. the soldier has a lot more gear attached to him? don't know if that would tilt the scale?

Paratroopers who jumped at night during the Normandy invasion carried about 100 pounds of equipment.  Their only flotation gear was a Mae West type device.  If they landed off shore their chance of survival was zero.  If they landed in one of the flooded areas (the Germans had flooded as many fields as possible), their chance of survival was still extremely low. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2270 on: September 24, 2019, 10:49:04 PM »
I guess it could come down to how trained you are and how you would act...

“The next emergency landing I will cover is the WATER LANDING. If you are drifting towards a body of water, immediately look then slip away. If you cannot avoid the water, look below you to ensure there are no fellow jumpers and lower your equipment. Next, jettison your helmet, making a mental note of where it lands. Activate the quick release in the waistband. Disconnect the left connector snap and rotate the reserve parachute to the right. Seat yourself well into the saddle and activate the quick release in the chest strap completely removing the chest strap from the chest strap friction adapter. Regain canopy control. Prior to entering the water, assume a landing attitude by keeping your feet and knees together, knees slightly bent and place your hands on both leg strap ejector snaps. When the balls of your feet make contact with the water, activate both leg strap ejector snaps, arch your back, throw your arms above your head and slide out of the parachute harness. Be prepared to execute a proper PLF if the water is shallow.

Swim upwind, or upstream, away from the canopy. If the canopy comes down on top of you, locate a seam, and follow it to the skirt of the canopy.”

So basically all your equipment is attached to you in such away you can lower and jettison it from the parachute harness in seconds. It's designed that way so you don't land on something harder and bulky during your Parachute Landing Fall (no skydiver style standing landings, you hit and let yourself roll onto your side and back to absorb the impact, you do NOT want to do that on top of your rucksack lol). So you lower your equipment and activate a couple quick releases (if you only have one in the harness and it fails….) and activate the last straps as you splash down so ideally you just slide on out of the harness and swim away.

Contrary to popular belief it's not really all that hard to swim or even float in uniform and boots. Heck we've trained swimming in pools with all that plus load bearing gear and rucksack. If you pack your ruck the right way it'll even float! Though thankfully after 9 years in the Army, including 3 deployments and 26 jumps the only time I've ever had to do that was at a pool specifically training for that.
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2271 on: September 25, 2019, 03:56:40 PM »
What's especially difficult is exiting your harness if there is no light or very little light. You have to disconnect three connectors, one on each leg strap and one on the chest strap. The stock Navy NB 6 and NB 8 harnesses (for some reason I cannot fathom) did NOT have Capewell riser releases so you are tethered to a sinking canopy unless and until you can get out of your harness. USAF harnesses had Capewells, but the Navy ones did not even though a Navy pilot was more likely to end up in the water where a quick riser release could give a valuable survival advantage.

My guess is that if Cooper went into the Columbia at night more than a few feet offshore, he drowned.

I think a good swimmer could cover some distance wearing only the harness, but if you are still connected to the canopy you aint goin nowhere.

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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2272 on: September 25, 2019, 04:36:07 PM »
Sounds like you need to put your harness on and jump in the pool and see how difficult is it to get off?
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2273 on: September 25, 2019, 04:43:41 PM »
I have done it successfully a few times for my D license daylight warm water jumps, but I wonder how successful I would have been at night with little or no illumination. Not so easy in cold water at night. If you get fouled in your canopy and or suspension lines (not uncommon in water jumps) you are unlikely to find your way out of the mess in the dark.

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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2274 on: September 25, 2019, 04:52:59 PM »
It appears to rely on experience and how each person would act under stress. odds are if you have never done it the odds drop. panic sets in quick like being in a car the goes into the water.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2275 on: September 25, 2019, 09:52:21 PM »
How about no parachute....

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Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2276 on: October 01, 2019, 04:43:36 PM »
Bill Cole from Canada did the first chuteless jump and others followed. It's insanely risky, so much can go wrong.

There have been some frauds too, a chuteless wingsuit water landing is on YouTube. It's fake. 

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2277 on: October 03, 2019, 04:16:45 AM »
Fake? How so?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2278 on: October 03, 2019, 06:11:22 AM »
The way the landing is shown without multiple angles and how it glides across the water looks fake. I can't imagine maintaining his form without flipping or bouncing off the water vs gliding in perfect like an airplane landing. the comments have also been removed stopping people from reading it's fake.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2279 on: October 03, 2019, 03:09:07 PM »
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The way the landing is shown without multiple angles and how it glides across the water looks fake. I can't imagine maintaining his form without flipping or bouncing off the water vs gliding in perfect like an airplane landing. the comments have also been removed stopping people from reading it's fake.

Daredevil or not, no man jumps from any height and shoots for a balls-first landing. Gotta be fake.