Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 204379 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2760 on: August 28, 2019, 03:15:42 PM »
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Doubtful any redaction has taken place. even the FBI makes a reference to no chatter on the radio....it's the company log that's needed..

What is a "company log"?  The Harrison papers are notes taken during the actual hijacking.  What we need are the complete Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south and the missing ARINC teletype transcripts that went to the Seattle NWA office.

That and a General Cooper bibliography! There is no standard Cooper file bibliography.  The same and similar documents are being referred to by different names by different people. That has been going on since Cooper discussions started and it only adds to confusion.  One case in point is "The Transcript" being used by Tom Kaye. Which transcript? PI Transcript? NWA Transcript? "The Transcript" referred to by Tom Kaye has nothing to do with the PI, NWA, or other socalled transcripts but is a compilation of FBI documents including the Palmer Report!

We need a "General Cooper bibliography" with specific assigned names for specific documents that people can refer to so everyone is on the same page and knows what documents are being referred to!

That bibliography should include tittles like: (a) missing complete Seattle ATC radio transcripts, (b) missing ARINC-NWA teletype transcripts, etc that dont even exist (yet). These documents probably do exist somewhere but have never been made public! "The Company Log" - what does that refer to?  Is that the missing ARINC-NWA flight communications teletype transcripts: ?   

I agree with your general premise. The need is real.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 03:23:05 PM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2761 on: August 28, 2019, 03:27:18 PM »
? ? ? ? ?
BIBLIOGRAPHY OF DOCUMENTS:
Crew Interviews – statements by crew members to press or privately
FBI Campbell crew interviews – FBI doc
FBI 302s – msc subjects, time & date stamped
Harrison papers – WSHM doc
Mitchell Interviews -  Bill Mitchell passenger interviews
Transcript – Kaye  transcripts provided science team by SA Carr,  Palmer rept
Transcript – PI flight comms
Transcript –  NWA flight comms
Transcript – NWA Company log private NWA-305 communications?
WSHM documents

What is a "company log"?  The Harrison papers are notes taken during the actual hijacking.  What we need are the complete Seattle ATC radio transcripts for the flight south and the missing ARINC teletype transcripts that went to the Seattle NWA office.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2762 on: September 04, 2019, 02:31:26 PM »
Had an interesting talk today with a person who worked for Tosaw. He said he thought that Tosaw was an FBI agent working on the case, due mainly to the documents and maps Tosaw had. I asked: 'why was Tosaw looking where he was looking'? The fellow replied: 'Because of the crew that were flying the plane and the one that noticed something had happened when Cooper jumped'. I replied: 'You mean Anderson' ? The fellow replied 'Yes. That's the guy. Tosaw talked to him and he told Tosaw they were just north of Portland when Cooper jumped. Tosaw had an engineer that told him if Cooper's chute didn't open  he might have dropped into the Columbia or close to the Columbia River and drifted down the Columbia'.   

 ;) 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 03:30:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2763 on: September 04, 2019, 02:36:57 PM »
From Campbell interviews –  time of jump.

Anderson stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 pm, they heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented that the hijacker could have departed causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight parameters or any other external force which would account for this sudden vibration. They telephoned the company representative ( __________ in ___________) shortly thereafter and stated that the ‘oscillation’ which could have been the hijacker’s departure, would have occurred between 8:05 pm and their call to the company five or ten minutes later, the exact time being recorded in the company log.  Anderson stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof.

Anderson added that no member of the crew went back to check on the presence of the hijacker immediately following the ‘oscillations’ the crew encountered. When the subject let hostess Mucklow go to the cockpit she locked the door behind her.

Anderson added, it had not occurred to them at the time to pinpoint their exact location at the time of the oscillation … 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 02:38:35 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2764 on: September 04, 2019, 04:54:39 PM »
Sounds like Rataczak....
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2765 on: September 04, 2019, 11:16:18 PM »
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Sounds like Rataczak....

Thats what I thought. As good as word for word!   Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 
Contrast that with Scott saying he bailed near/over Lake Merwin.             :-\

Is it safe to conclude that if Tosaw had talked to Scott, Tosaw would have been dredging Lake Merwin instead of the Columbia ?  :rofl:

Is it possible that FBI doc/quote is talking about Anderson and not Ratczk ? Oh I know! It's NORJAK! 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 11:22:14 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2766 on: September 05, 2019, 04:32:50 AM »
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Sounds like Rataczak....

This is an example of why I always want to see whole documents vs snips from docs. I want to see the date, context etc. Things sometimes overlap with different agents giving different attributions - sometimes from the same source. In this case there is no way two people said the same exact thing! 

If I had to guess I would attribute this to Anderson vs. Rataczak. Why? Because in several interviews with Anderson he brings up the issue of a time lag between oscillations and calling in the report to the company. There are only a couple of interviews with Anderson that I am aware of and Anderson brings up the time lag in each interview. In contrast to that I dont know of any interview Rataczak ever gave where he brings up the time delay btwn oscillations and calling in, as is Anderson's consistent focus in all of his interviews. Maybe I am wrong. But, whatever the case there is no way both people spoke the same exact words - no way!   
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 04:39:44 AM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2767 on: September 06, 2019, 03:10:35 PM »
The problem with the West Path is that nobody wants to confront the WP supporters about it! Therefore, the WP has fallen into a kind of gulag, or a black hole - whichever you prefer. ... from which it may never and maybe cannot, ever return.

The West Path shall forever remain in storage. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2768 on: September 06, 2019, 05:00:07 PM »
If you use the data from the Harrison papers surrounding the 23 miles DME at 8:18 it will present a problem. the plane now has to travel approx. 20 NM to the 23 DME location. Tina Bar is around 8 miles DME arriving at 8:15 so it must travel 20 miles in 3 minutes..
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2769 on: September 08, 2019, 10:49:12 AM »
The problem with the Rataczak and/or Anderson quotes about the jump time is that it is completely inconsistent with what Rat said on the 2016 History Channel doc. Specifically, that the crew felt the pressure bump and notified flight ops and said, "you may want to mark this spot on the map because our friend may have taken leave of us."

This clearly implies that flight ops was immediately notified after the pressure bump. This is inconsistent with the 302s. Moreover, it is highly unlikely Rat would have immediately notified flight ops about the jump and Anderson to have been unaware of that, therefore leading to Anderson discussing a jump time 5-10 minutes after the bump which apparently went largely unnoticed at the time it occurred.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2770 on: September 08, 2019, 01:59:30 PM »
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The problem with the Rataczak and/or Anderson quotes about the jump time is that it is completely inconsistent with what Rat said on the 2016 History Channel doc. Specifically, that the crew felt the pressure bump and notified flight ops and said, "you may want to mark this spot on the map because our friend may have taken leave of us."

This clearly implies that flight ops was immediately notified after the pressure bump. This is inconsistent with the 302s. Moreover, it is highly unlikely Rat would have immediately notified flight ops about the jump and Anderson to have been unaware of that, therefore leading to Anderson discussing a jump time 5-10 minutes after the bump which apparently went largely unnoticed at the time it occurred.

I don't see where it's inconsistent. Rataczak states the evening of the hijacking that the time would be recorded in the company log.  they were not completely sure he exited. Anderson would see the pressure change on the engineer's panel and notify the pilots of the problem. statements made 45 years later will never match what was said 45 years later. that's the human mind controlling memory. Rataczak was flying the plane. the call was made to Paul Soderlind right after the oscillation. the question surrounds whether or not the bump was recorded vs the oscillation that was on the transcripts.  one document states both were felt and other documents separate them. testing showed the oscillation did nothing to the gauges but a noticeable change should of occurred as it's been noted on other copycat hijackings described as a howling noise.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2771 on: September 08, 2019, 02:24:11 PM »
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The problem with the Rataczak and/or Anderson quotes about the jump time is that it is completely inconsistent with what Rat said on the 2016 History Channel doc. Specifically, that the crew felt the pressure bump and notified flight ops and said, "you may want to mark this spot on the map because our friend may have taken leave of us."

This clearly implies that flight ops was immediately notified after the pressure bump. This is inconsistent with the 302s. Moreover, it is highly unlikely Rat would have immediately notified flight ops about the jump and Anderson to have been unaware of that, therefore leading to Anderson discussing a jump time 5-10 minutes after the bump which apparently went largely unnoticed at the time it occurred.

You provided your own answer:   Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

 :rofl:
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2772 on: September 08, 2019, 02:25:51 PM »
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The problem with the Rataczak and/or Anderson quotes about the jump time is that it is completely inconsistent with what Rat said on the 2016 History Channel doc. Specifically, that the crew felt the pressure bump and notified flight ops and said, "you may want to mark this spot on the map because our friend may have taken leave of us."

This clearly implies that flight ops was immediately notified after the pressure bump. This is inconsistent with the 302s. Moreover, it is highly unlikely Rat would have immediately notified flight ops about the jump and Anderson to have been unaware of that, therefore leading to Anderson discussing a jump time 5-10 minutes after the bump which apparently went largely unnoticed at the time it occurred.

I don't see where it's inconsistent. Rataczak states the evening of the hijacking that the time would be recorded in the company log.  they were not completely sure he exited. Anderson would see the pressure change on the engineer's panel and notify the pilots of the problem. statements made 45 years later will never match what was said 45 years later. that's the human mind controlling memory. Rataczak was flying the plane. the call was made to Paul Soderlind right after the oscillation. the question surrounds whether or not the bump was recorded vs the oscillation that was on the transcripts.  one document states both were felt and other documents separate them. testing showed the oscillation did nothing to the gauges but a noticeable change should of occurred as it's been noted on other copycat hijackings described as a howling noise.

My understanding from the 302s is that Rat contacted Soderman 5-10 minutes after the bump. Rat on the History Channel doc seemed to suggest that immediately after the pressure bump that he contacted Soderman and suggested they mark the spot on their map. Curious as to which version is correct.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2773 on: September 08, 2019, 02:28:58 PM »
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The problem with the Rataczak and/or Anderson quotes about the jump time is that it is completely inconsistent with what Rat said on the 2016 History Channel doc. Specifically, that the crew felt the pressure bump and notified flight ops and said, "you may want to mark this spot on the map because our friend may have taken leave of us."

This clearly implies that flight ops was immediately notified after the pressure bump. This is inconsistent with the 302s. Moreover, it is highly unlikely Rat would have immediately notified flight ops about the jump and Anderson to have been unaware of that, therefore leading to Anderson discussing a jump time 5-10 minutes after the bump which apparently went largely unnoticed at the time it occurred.

I don't see where it's inconsistent. Rataczak states the evening of the hijacking that the time would be recorded in the company log.  they were not completely sure he exited. Anderson would see the pressure change on the engineer's panel and notify the pilots of the problem. statements made 45 years later will never match what was said 45 years later. that's the human mind controlling memory. Rataczak was flying the plane. the call was made to Paul Soderlind right after the oscillation. the question surrounds whether or not the bump was recorded vs the oscillation that was on the transcripts.  one document states both were felt and other documents separate them. testing showed the oscillation did nothing to the gauges but a noticeable change should of occurred as it's been noted on other copycat hijackings described as a howling noise.

My understanding from the 302s is that Rat contacted Soderman 5-10 minutes after the bump. Rat on the History Channel doc seemed to suggest that immediately after the pressure bump that he contacted Soderman and suggested they mark the spot on their map. Curious as to which version is correct.

Soderman ?  You mean Solderbloom?  Hickenlooper?  Balvance?  Alabama?  Florida? 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 02:30:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2774 on: September 08, 2019, 02:31:46 PM »
I believe they contacted Paul when the radioed Seattle. that's why they make the reference of it being in the company log for the exact time. during there statements they obviously didn't have the information in front of them and used the company log as the reference for a jump time and state 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper was by memory.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 02:33:44 PM by Shutter »