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Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 755137 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2640 on: August 17, 2019, 04:38:17 PM »
This is getting way too complicated.

Cliff simply said the jet made the turn at Maylay. This is what the FBI map shows.

However, he estimates that as the jet was east of Kelso it veered its heading slightly to put it on a due south heading in order to cut out the V23 dogleg. Then he says 305 naturally merged right back into the V23 centerline south of Portland.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2641 on: August 17, 2019, 04:40:55 PM »
It's hard to say whether or not they had to fly V23. that was the suggested path and approved.

I'm trying to understand how the eruption of Saint Helens has to do with the map made in 1971?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2642 on: August 17, 2019, 04:43:24 PM »
Quote
However, he estimates that as the jet was east of Kelso it veered its heading slightly to put it on a due south heading in order to cut out the V23 dogleg. Then he says 305 naturally merged right back into the V23 centerline south of Portland.


was he told they deviated from V23 starting at Kelso and cutting out 10 minutes of radar tracking?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2643 on: August 17, 2019, 04:47:23 PM »
If the conversation of any deviation was on the transcripts or radar it would be painfully obvious and a deliberate conspiracy in action? this was a map seen by there own agents searching. did they giggle while watching them search the wrong location?

This doesn't add up IMHO...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 04:50:04 PM by Shutter »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2644 on: August 17, 2019, 04:55:17 PM »
It just seems odd that Ammerman see's a different path on radar but many claim over the years that the radar reports in that area were weak and if they told Ammermamn they were deviating straight down bypassing Portland it should of been apparent to all involved. then they see the map made by the Air Force and send in the forces to the wrong location? did George Harrison rig his notes that match?

This is how I see this in my world?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 05:13:14 PM by Shutter »
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2645 on: August 17, 2019, 05:00:30 PM »
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It just seems odd that Ammerman see's a different path on radar but many claim over the years that the radar reports in that area were weak and if they told Ammermamn they were deviating straight down bypassing Portland it should of been apparent to all involved. then they see the map made by the Air Force and send in the forces to the wrong location?

This is how I see this in my world?

Its quite simple - in all worlds!

EU wants his way. Sandbox time. He wants to win his debate. If that means throwing the whole flight path out - that will happen. If it means the Cooper hijacking was a myth - that will happen. If it means DB Cooper was Donald Duck  - that will happen. Script writers always get their way.

In time EU will spawn a new interest project, claim he solved the DB Cooper case, after solving the JFK and Elvis cases, .... and move on.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 05:05:53 PM by georger »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2646 on: August 17, 2019, 05:05:37 PM »
I understand you point of view..lets continue to debate the issue and allow it to lead to actual facts. nobody is right at this moment and time that I can see. lots of variables to prove or disprove in coming to any conclusions..
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2647 on: August 17, 2019, 05:06:47 PM »
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I understand you point of view..lets continue to debate the issue and allow it to lead to actual facts. nobody is right at this moment and time that I can see. lots of variables to prove or disprove in coming to any conclusions..

I need to spend time sort and organising files - I cant find anything when I need it today. It has become very complicated.  ;)
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2648 on: August 17, 2019, 05:08:17 PM »
I'm going through all the files looking for all the data surrounding the flight path...I'm seeing double sometimes scrolling through the files. a lot are easy to pass over with all the blanks in them but they play with your eye's.. :rofl:
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 05:08:31 PM by Shutter »
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2649 on: August 17, 2019, 05:32:46 PM »
Shutter, I believe you mentioned that the FBI Flight Path (Air Force) was handed to the FBI on November 26th. How did they know where to search on November 25th without a flight path?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2650 on: August 17, 2019, 06:28:07 PM »
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Shutter, I believe you mentioned that the FBI Flight Path (Air Force) was handed to the FBI on November 26th. How did they know where to search on November 25th without a flight path?


Possibly the pilots, Air Force,radio transcripts/audio. the FDR, Portland radar reports, the fact of NWO monitoring the flight. they might of received the path prior to the FBI...I suspect they would be working on the LZ that evening. the last LZ map was made on 1-13-72 after the testing of the oscillation and pressure bump.

when someone is missing do we need a map to start or an area?

I found two separate dates surrounding the map. one on 11-26-71 and another 12-23-71 there is several LZ maps and progress as time passes with new information. even if the FDR didn't have a clock a clear straight path should of been noticed under the microscope while viewing the foil.

You guys seem to act as if it was impossible to figure out the basic area's without a map?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2651 on: August 17, 2019, 06:29:24 PM »
It appears they found solid ground for an area to search....just as anyone else would do with missing persons or anything else.
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2652 on: August 17, 2019, 06:37:49 PM »
I'm simply asking a question.

I'm looking at the fact that the jet landed in Reno at 11PM. No one knew definitively that DBC had bailed until the flight crew looked in back.

Given this, how is it possible that the FBI--or anyone for that matter--started searching the next day? Also, did the search area shift over time as the first flight path came out--apparently on the 26th--and was subsequently updated?

Perhaps Bruce can pipe in on this.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 06:38:22 PM by EU »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2653 on: August 17, 2019, 07:01:34 PM »
the search started once they realized he was not on the plane. the clock starts ticking for backtracking from this point. Rataczak was talking to the company during the event. what was said is not clear but he indicated the time would be logged. from that point it comes down to finding where the plane was. we don't know who all was interviewed. Ammerman wasn't but was the flight manager or Seattle tower, Portland etc. aviation was Northwests game not the FBI. it's not 100% clear how involved Paul S. was either. did he monitor the flight?

It's certainly a critical error and lack of communication surrounding the oscillation. at least from our standpoint. could of been worse by not reporting the oscillation and later saying "I think I know where he might of jumped" the original area was above Ariel so they were off until more information came in. the question still remains whether it was an oscillation or pressure bump or both right after another. it appears the final LZ was calculated after the testing.

I just don't find anything odd that they found a possible LZ the next day or late that evening. some pretty smart guys brought three men home from space back in the same period by team work and calculations. I don't believe they got everything right by any means. a lot has to be discounted before anything can replace it.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2654 on: August 17, 2019, 07:03:59 PM »
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I'm simply asking a question.

I'm looking at the fact that the jet landed in Reno at 11PM. No one knew definitively that DBC had bailed until the flight crew looked in back.

Given this, how is it possible that the FBI--or anyone for that matter--started searching the next day? Also, did the search area shift over time as the first flight path came out--apparently on the 26th--and was subsequently updated?

Perhaps Bruce can pipe in on this.

If I remember correctly, the first LZ estimate was prepared the night of the hijacking and maybe even before the airliner got to Reno.  I am referring to the one that names some people (however, their names are redacted).

In my personal and professional opinion, the 1971 FDR information would be essentially useless in determining a landing zone.  In that age, such information was basically used to determine the sequence of events within a minute or so of a major event (such as an accident).  The FDR would certainly not be able to provide conclusive proof of a jumper leaving the aircraft if even the flight crew couldn't tell for sure.

Further, the airliner, flight crew, and FDR didn't get back to Seattle until late on the afternoon of the 25th (Thanksgiving afternoon).  Within just a handful of minutes, the flight crew was placed on an NWA airliner (which had been held for them) and were enroute to Minneapolis and got there late in the evening.  Even if they had the FDR with them, someone in Minneapolis would have to work all night to predict the LZ from the FDR and other sources.  So it is a very tight time line for a FDR supported LZ to be available on the morning of the 26th. 
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