Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 231912 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2235 on: June 28, 2019, 01:01:17 AM »
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Nobody that I'm aware of. I first looked at Evergreen airport. then when I looked at Scholl's the sectional map was there showing the parachute. I wanted to find the airport the F-106 was referring too. didn't take long. I don't know if anyone followed that lead from the pilot?

I just wish Wayne was here to speak to this!

Any bail near Scholls/Orchards place the jump in the 2011-13 time space, as I read this.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2236 on: June 28, 2019, 01:03:08 AM »
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It makes sense but then you have to figure out where he landed. Flyjack keeps posting wind data but it's ground winds. those go to 1000 feet if not mistaken. it does put Cooper closer to the Columbia.

I looked back to the 70's and the area was not entirely woods or vacant. roads and housing were all over the area. spread out but not empty..

Andrade is going to have something to say about this, I am sure! I just posted his flight path drop map in the my last reply ...

I have to run ... later. Thanks! Been a nice evening.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 01:03:50 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2237 on: June 28, 2019, 01:06:47 AM »
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Nobody that I'm aware of. I first looked at Evergreen airport. then when I looked at Scholl's the sectional map was there showing the parachute. I wanted to find the airport the F-106 was referring too. didn't take long. I don't know if anyone followed that lead from the pilot?

I just wish Wayne was here to speak to this!

Any bail near Scholls/Orchards place the jump in the 2011-13 time space, as I read this.

The path connects to what the pilot stated. it veered east and then turns right. that's the 8:15 location.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2238 on: June 28, 2019, 08:55:19 PM »
The time on the file is November 26, 1971. in reference to the F-106 pilot.....
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2239 on: June 28, 2019, 11:36:49 PM »
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The time on the file is November 26, 1971. in reference to the F-106 pilot.....

Thank you! Great !! will note in the file.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2240 on: June 29, 2019, 03:00:26 AM »
Thanks for all this information, guys. I haven't made my trip down to Orchards to scout out the LZ, but this information gives me a better starting point. Maybe I'll head down there this week.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2241 on: June 29, 2019, 03:30:35 AM »
Anyone know where Scholl's Air Field is/was? I can't find it anywhere on a map.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2242 on: June 29, 2019, 07:41:50 AM »
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Anyone know where Scholl's Air Field is/was? I can't find it anywhere on a map.


Scholl's Airport is located southeast of the intersection of Northeast 117th Avenue & Northeast 95th Street. the runway is still there being used by a business. it closed sometime in the early 90's.

The photo below shows the flight path going over Scholl's. near by you can see the parachute on the map.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 08:16:22 AM by Shutter »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2243 on: June 29, 2019, 02:27:13 PM »
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Anyone know where Scholl's Air Field is/was? I can't find it anywhere on a map.


Scholl's Airport is located southeast of the intersection of Northeast 117th Avenue & Northeast 95th Street. the runway is still there being used by a business. it closed sometime in the early 90's.

The photo below shows the flight path going over Scholl's. near by you can see the parachute on the map.

Smith's free-lunch-buzzer has gone off! So let me simply ask: 'Who landed at Scholl's airport the evening of 11-24-71 and where did he go'?

There are 302's about this.

The F-106 pilot's notes probably end all speculation about an east path or a west path, imho.  :chr2:

*This may take until Monday until I can find and talk to two people, if they are still alive. I pray they are, and their memory is sound!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 02:36:14 PM by georger »
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2244 on: June 29, 2019, 06:39:08 PM »
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It makes sense but then you have to figure out where he landed. Flyjack keeps posting wind data but it's ground winds. those go to 1000 feet if not mistaken. it does put Cooper closer to the Columbia.

I looked back to the 70's and the area was not entirely woods or vacant. roads and housing were all over the area. spread out but not empty..

Andrade is going to have something to say about this, I am sure! I just posted his flight path drop map in the my last reply ...

I have to run ... later. Thanks! Been a nice evening.

I never liked the western half of the search grid, I took some of the reports that the plane over La Center when Cooper dropped, then I tried to incorporate a flight path west of Portland from that point.... meh. I'm really beginning to despise speculation, even my own.

From everything my father and I have looked at, and all the calculations and reports, we put Cooper as far south as Orchards. That's with a "missing minute" plus a minute of error, plus a three minute "oscillation event" that was reported in one of the newspaper accounts. Speaking personally, I've become more orthodox the more I look at the case, and find little objection to the 8:10-8:13 LZ-A the FBI came up with in '72.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2245 on: June 30, 2019, 09:01:30 AM »
It's still confusing. the same report with the military (F-106) the 302 states the oscillation and pressure bump occurred in the same time frame. if that's true Cooper didn't stay on the stairs very long.

The F-106 states the plane veered. that appears to be the 8:14 location just east of Battlegound. the plane turns (right) at the 8:15 location. that would be considered a course change. this is some difference in miles to Lake Merwin. was Carr right when he stated they mixed up the oscillation and pressure bump...

If Cooper bailed at 8:13 - 8:15 the plane is in the opposite direction the drop map shows.

I think some of the lapse in time in this area is due to the pilot speaking with the company vs radio transmissions.

The three pages can be found in the FBI vault.  part 10 of 37, page 427 or looking at the bottom right of the pages will show DB Cooper - 1660
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 09:08:00 AM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2246 on: June 30, 2019, 09:28:56 AM »
The F-106 pilot really nails the location. it will be hard to find a loophole for reasoning out of the report. he knew exactly where he was as well as the plane. I don't see any location matching this west of the flight path. the western flight path is suppose to be a straight line of flight. 60 plus nautical miles straight if not mistaken? no turns, no veering.

Next will be finding out why the 6 dashes are on the radio transcripts. they start almost immediately after the plane takes off. what would they be hiding seconds after takeoff, or does this imply something else. why would they mark where they removed something. if they redacted, it would be blacked out...or blank with box lines similar to the 302's. IMO, this would be a cover up or conspiracy.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2247 on: June 30, 2019, 03:55:35 PM »
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Anyone know where Scholl's Air Field is/was? I can't find it anywhere on a map.


Scholl's Airport is located southeast of the intersection of Northeast 117th Avenue & Northeast 95th Street. the runway is still there being used by a business. it closed sometime in the early 90's.

The photo below shows the flight path going over Scholl's. near by you can see the parachute on the map.

Smith's free-lunch-buzzer has gone off! So let me simply ask: 'Who landed at Scholl's airport the evening of 11-24-71 and where did he go'?

There are 302's about this.

The F-106 pilot's notes probably end all speculation about an east path or a west path, imho.  :chr2:

*This may take until Monday until I can find and talk to two people, if they are still alive. I pray they are, and their memory is sound!

The surprises never end.  Just exactly how did the F-106 pilots determine the ground point where they claim Cooper jumped?  Georger apparently believes they had x-ray eyes.  The facts seem to be that the F-106 pilots were 5 miles behind the airliner and never saw anyone jump either visually or on their radar systems.  And they were above an overcast and several additional cloud layers and could not possibly have had a view of the ground.  But that doesn't discourage Georger and others who try to arrange the facts to fit their theories.

Incidentally, in an early post on the current DZ Cooper forum, Ckret states that Cooper could not possibly have known his location when he jumped.  And that statement is absolutely true.

Recent posts on DZ by well known wackos claim that the wind was from the southeast at Portland when Cooper jumped.  One of these characters posts a 302 form that lists the 7:00PM, 8:00PM, and 9:00PM Aviation Sequence Reports for Portland and a few other locations plus a winds aloft estimate for the Portland area for the 8:00PM to 9:00PM time period.

But he apparently doesn't know how to read those sequence reports or the winds aloft estimate.  They indicate that the winds aloft were from the southwest (225 degrees true) or further west.  They absolutely do not support the claim that the winds were from the southeast.

Those estimated winds aloft are of unknown origin.  The National Weather Service is responsible for preparing the winds aloft forecasts that are used in FAA briefings.  They do not predict winds aloft for less than 3000 feet above the surface.

In any event, the winds aloft were substantially higher than the estimates shown in the DZ post as well as the predictions in the NWS forecasts.  The actual measured winds aloft and directions only recently became available to the Cooper community thanks to the efforts of Tom Kaye.  To repeat, the radiosonde data is actual measured data and not predictions.

Anyone who is even casually interested in determining the weather and flight path during the Cooper hijacking should make some effort to understand them.  The NWS has excellent publications on aviation weather and the FAA has excellent publications on instrument flying, ATC procedures, navigation, and everything else related to aviation.  Most if not all of these publications can be downloaded for free.  I'm sure that Georger will appreciate that. 

 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 03:59:22 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2248 on: June 30, 2019, 06:28:15 PM »
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Anyone know where Scholl's Air Field is/was? I can't find it anywhere on a map.


Scholl's Airport is located southeast of the intersection of Northeast 117th Avenue & Northeast 95th Street. the runway is still there being used by a business. it closed sometime in the early 90's.

The photo below shows the flight path going over Scholl's. near by you can see the parachute on the map.

Thanks, Shut.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2249 on: June 30, 2019, 06:33:09 PM »
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The surprises never end.  Just exactly how did the F-106 pilots determine the ground point where they claim Cooper jumped?  Georger apparently believes they had x-ray eyes.  The facts seem to be that the F-106 pilots were 5 miles behind the airliner and never saw anyone jump either visually or on their radar systems.  And they were above an overcast and several additional cloud layers and could not possibly have had a view of the ground....
 

Good points, Robert. I've been wondering the same thing. But it is a starting point for further investigation and conversation with the folks who were down there and might remember something about the FBI's follow-up ground search, if there was any, in the Orchards-Hockinson area.

Besides Scholl's Air Field, the Goheen Airport is still active, apparently, and might be a source of information. Goheen has popped up frequently in local narratives about DBC and low-flying airplanes, strange takeoffs and landings, etc.

I'm developing a map of this area. A central feature is WA State Route 503, and I'm labeling it the "LZ Highway." In fact, there is a loop involved as SR 503 runs north from Orchards to Amboy, and then from there one can drive south on 182nd St back to the Orchards area, passing through Yacolt along the way. Yacolt is where Tom McDowell currently works, and he was the leader of the ground search in Amboy on November 26-29, 1971.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:36:28 PM by Bruce A. Smith »