Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 225101 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2190 on: June 05, 2019, 06:15:49 PM »
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Some time earlier (on this thread I believe) EU and others were discussing the Sage radar system and the F 106's response. Eric,you asked for someone to explain why the F 106 couldn't fly at 200 mph.    I am curious as to the origin of the question. Was this something that you read or something someone said?   I should say that I believe this (the F 106's inability to maintain a 200 mph speed ) to be true.

The F-106's probably had a full load of internal fuel when they took off and maybe some ammunition as well.  Their touchdown landing speed under those conditions would probably have been about 180 knots which is about 10 knots higher than the 170 knots indicated airspeed that the airliner was trying to maintain.

Google "F-106 Flight Manual" and you can probably find additional information, but it appears to be true that the F-106's could not fly at the slow speed of the airliner under the existing conditions.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2191 on: June 05, 2019, 08:12:10 PM »
Thank you for the response R 99.   Glad to see you back on the forum.    I am curious R 99, would the flight manual have been restricted for most people to see? Probably a need to know only basis?                     If I recall correctly, I believe Hager told me there was a problem concerning the F 106 being air aspirated. I think he said they would be a threat to stall at those speeds due to not enough intake. Something along those lines. In fact Hager said there were revisions ordered to the design of the F 106 in early 1972. I believe they increased the air intake. Hager went as far as to say that the revision in early 1972 was a direct result of this problem they had with the F 106s (inability to maintain that speed) the night of the hijacking. He also said he doubted anyone would admit to this. Hager thought the Sage radar worked fine except for the inability of the F 106s to be able to maintain speed of 305 once engaged (if engaged is the right word).          Added to the threat of stalling at that speed would have been the weather conditions. Hager didn't think the F 106s would have had any de-icing capability. at least in their wings. He said there was probably not any de-icing equipment installed because the type of aircraft they were (high speed interceptors). They would normally be flying fast enough to not have to worry about their wings icing up.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2192 on: June 05, 2019, 11:45:12 PM »
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Thank you for the response R 99.   Glad to see you back on the forum.    I am curious R 99, would the flight manual have been restricted for most people to see? Probably a need to know only basis?                     If I recall correctly, I believe Hager told me there was a problem concerning the F 106 being air aspirated. I think he said they would be a threat to stall at those speeds due to not enough intake. Something along those lines. In fact Hager said there were revisions ordered to the design of the F 106 in early 1972. I believe they increased the air intake. Hager went as far as to say that the revision in early 1972 was a direct result of this problem they had with the F 106s (inability to maintain that speed) the night of the hijacking. He also said he doubted anyone would admit to this. Hager thought the Sage radar worked fine except for the inability of the F 106s to be able to maintain speed of 305 once engaged (if engaged is the right word).          Added to the threat of stalling at that speed would have been the weather conditions. Hager didn't think the F 106s would have had any de-icing capability. at least in their wings. He said there was probably not any de-icing equipment installed because the type of aircraft they were (high speed interceptors). They would normally be flying fast enough to not have to worry about their wings icing up.

I don't claim to be knowledgeable about engine air intakes, but my guess is that if there was an intake problem related to the aircraft structure that it would be not getting enough air into the engine at low speeds.  Some high speed fighter aircraft in the 1960s and 1970s had variable air intake inlets for the engines.  I think you can find more information online about this problem.

Another problem with the early F-106s was with the ejection seats.  Reportedly the first 11 pilots who had to make emergency ejections from that aircraft were killed.  The ejection seats were replaced with improved ones, but I'll bet there was some nervous pilots until that happened.

The F-106 was designed for high rates of climb and high speeds.  It's top speed was 1500+ MPH and it reportedly could zoon to 70,000 feet (that's U-2 territory).
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2193 on: June 06, 2019, 08:04:46 AM »
As per R 99's last post...          That is amazing that it took 11 pilots dying before they got the ejection seat problem figured out. Can you imagine what was going through the head of that 12th pilot right before ejecting?                   As far as the problems that the F 106s encountered the night of the hijacking, do you think D.B. knew of them beforehand?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2194 on: June 08, 2019, 05:20:07 PM »
...and all built by the lowest-bidder...
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2195 on: June 09, 2019, 07:41:10 AM »
I guess you get what you pay for and nothing more than that.             I am curious, am I the only forum member who thinks D.B. knew the F106s wouldn't be able to maintain the flight speed of 305? I wonder why he ordered for all the lights to be turned off?  I think he knows the F106s will be the initial pursuit aircraft. I actually think he anticipated the military's, law enforcement's, and the airline's response. Seems like he was always one step ahead of their responses. Maybe thats the system that beats the system.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2196 on: June 09, 2019, 11:43:42 AM »
With all due respect to R99, my understanding is that the F-106 is a remarkably capable jet that handles very well at slow speeds. I do not believe that the F-106s that were attempting to trail 305 that night had a problem with the 200 MPH speed. I think there is more to the story.

That said, the fact that Cooper wanted the lights out in the jet probably did have to do with the possibility of the jet being chased. After all, when the airstairs extended downward during Cooper's jump, this would have been quite visible by a trailing jet if the lights were on in 305's cabin.
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2197 on: June 09, 2019, 02:26:22 PM »
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With all due respect to R99, my understanding is that the F-106 is a remarkably capable jet that handles very well at slow speeds. I do not believe that the F-106s that were attempting to trail 305 that night had a problem with the 200 MPH speed. I think there is more to the story.

That said, the fact that Cooper wanted the lights out in the jet probably did have to do with the possibility of the jet being chased. After all, when the airstairs extended downward during Cooper's jump, this would have been quite visible by a trailing jet if the lights were on in 305's cabin.

You may have hit on an important distinction. lights out in the jet on the ground vs in the air. On the ground makes sense - in the air who is going to be looking? It could go to Cooper's background, his experience, possibly his training,  ...  perhaps tactical training or just somebody rather bright. Not your typical food service employee?

Why did a search turn up no military records? Maybe they focused too much on sky divers and not enough on retired tactical fighter pilots? Or tactical planner types, or disaffected systems analysts and mathematicians?  Somebody sensitive to all the pieces in a puzzle, or a chess match.

Ive always wondered why H had a almost visceral reaction to this Unsub. H was trained as a fighter pilot although he never saw any combat. H turns around and calls C a nasty ... food service worker type! He might as well have said 'a dumb son of a bitch ...even though Cooper is outwitting everyone!' Did H sense one of his own kind was at work and was competing with him personally'?

We have to be very careful that we don't create paradigms that may not be true!   

What I am suggesting here is the FBI may have looked in all the wrong places with the wrong profile for Cooper, just as in the Unabomber case. Kaczynski got found but he essentially revealed himself just as McCoy did ... it just took longer to nail down Kaczynski. They both had the same big ego and big mouth! If Cooper survived to have a long career,  what did he do with it?

I dont think this was Cooper's first rodeo - or his last! I dont think a mere $200k assuaged Cooper's "grudge".
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 03:02:49 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2198 on: June 09, 2019, 03:51:58 PM »
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With all due respect to R99, my understanding is that the F-106 is a remarkably capable jet that handles very well at slow speeds. I do not believe that the F-106s that were attempting to trail 305 that night had a problem with the 200 MPH speed. I think there is more to the story.

That said, the fact that Cooper wanted the lights out in the jet probably did have to do with the possibility of the jet being chased. After all, when the airstairs extended downward during Cooper's jump, this would have been quite visible by a trailing jet if the lights were on in 305's cabin.

According to the F-106 Flight Manual, airframe buffeting starts at about 175 Knots (which is about 200 MPH).  The manual also states that the touchdown speed on landing (wheels on the runway) is about 147 Knots (which is 169 MPH) with only 1000 pounds of fuel.  With a full fuel load, the touchdown speed is 165 Knots (which is 190 MPH).  The approach speeds are quite a bit higher in each case.

Consequently, there is no reason to question the statement that the F-106s could not maintain the speed of the airliner which was 170 Knots (which is 195 MPH).  The airliner was told by the NWA performance engineers in Minneapolis to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed because that would maximize the range for the configuration that was specified by Cooper.

It should be remembered that the F-106s did not have trailing edge flaps to reduce their stall speed.  And their landing speeds are quite high even by present day standards.
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2199 on: June 09, 2019, 05:51:06 PM »
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With all due respect to R99, my understanding is that the F-106 is a remarkably capable jet that handles very well at slow speeds. I do not believe that the F-106s that were attempting to trail 305 that night had a problem with the 200 MPH speed. I think there is more to the story.

That said, the fact that Cooper wanted the lights out in the jet probably did have to do with the possibility of the jet being chased. After all, when the airstairs extended downward during Cooper's jump, this would have been quite visible by a trailing jet if the lights were on in 305's cabin.

You may have hit on an important distinction. lights out in the jet on the ground vs in the air. On the ground makes sense - in the air who is going to be looking? It could go to Cooper's background, his experience, possibly his training,  ...  perhaps tactical training or just somebody rather bright. Not your typical food service employee?

Why did a search turn up no military records? Maybe they focused too much on sky divers and not enough on retired tactical fighter pilots? Or tactical planner types, or disaffected systems analysts and mathematicians?  Somebody sensitive to all the pieces in a puzzle, or a chess match.

Ive always wondered why H had a almost visceral reaction to this Unsub. H was trained as a fighter pilot although he never saw any combat. H turns around and calls C a nasty ... food service worker type! He might as well have said 'a dumb son of a bitch ...even though Cooper is outwitting everyone!' Did H sense one of his own kind was at work and was competing with him personally'?

We have to be very careful that we don't create paradigms that may not be true!   

What I am suggesting here is the FBI may have looked in all the wrong places with the wrong profile for Cooper, just as in the Unabomber case. Kaczynski got found but he essentially revealed himself just as McCoy did ... it just took longer to nail down Kaczynski. They both had the same big ego and big mouth! If Cooper survived to have a long career,  what did he do with it?

I dont think this was Cooper's first rodeo - or his last! I dont think a mere $200k assuaged Cooper's "grudge".

I'll have to look at my notes, but I thought his demands in the air from Portland were to land in Seattle, get the chutes, and take off by 5, he may have stated lights off for takeoff.  Georger raises a good point about whether it was lights off in the air or on the ground.  On the ground I'd be worried about snipers or someone getting a picture of me, in the air I'd be thinking about being tracked visually by an aircraft or by someone on the ground.  But lights out in the cabin does not mean there would not be a blinking beacon light on the plane (red or green) that people can see from the ground. How would he control the pilot's choosing to keep one of those on?

What are other reasons for having the lights off? He still needs to be able to see in the plane.  Trying to keep his night vision maybe?

Why takeoff by 5PM? A rendezvous with an accomplice? Wanted to make the evening papers? The sun must have been down at 5PM in November in Seattle right?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 05:51:49 PM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2200 on: June 09, 2019, 06:03:23 PM »
Keeping the lights out in the air makes the jet much more difficult to see from a trailing jet. Also, it doesn't give away his jump time by virtue of the back stairs lowering and the light from the cabin shining out the back.

Cooper wanted everything in place in Seattle by 5PM. In other words, he wanted to land in Seattle by shortly after 5PM.

Sunset in Seattle on November 24, 1971 was 4:25PM.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2201 on: June 10, 2019, 12:32:30 AM »
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With all due respect to R99, my understanding is that the F-106 is a remarkably capable jet that handles very well at slow speeds. I do not believe that the F-106s that were attempting to trail 305 that night had a problem with the 200 MPH speed. I think there is more to the story.

That said, the fact that Cooper wanted the lights out in the jet probably did have to do with the possibility of the jet being chased. After all, when the airstairs extended downward during Cooper's jump, this would have been quite visible by a trailing jet if the lights were on in 305's cabin.

You may have hit on an important distinction. lights out in the jet on the ground vs in the air. On the ground makes sense - in the air who is going to be looking? It could go to Cooper's background, his experience, possibly his training,  ...  perhaps tactical training or just somebody rather bright. Not your typical food service employee?

Why did a search turn up no military records? Maybe they focused too much on sky divers and not enough on retired tactical fighter pilots? Or tactical planner types, or disaffected systems analysts and mathematicians?  Somebody sensitive to all the pieces in a puzzle, or a chess match.

Ive always wondered why H had a almost visceral reaction to this Unsub. H was trained as a fighter pilot although he never saw any combat. H turns around and calls C a nasty ... food service worker type! He might as well have said 'a dumb son of a bitch ...even though Cooper is outwitting everyone!' Did H sense one of his own kind was at work and was competing with him personally'?

We have to be very careful that we don't create paradigms that may not be true!   

What I am suggesting here is the FBI may have looked in all the wrong places with the wrong profile for Cooper, just as in the Unabomber case. Kaczynski got found but he essentially revealed himself just as McCoy did ... it just took longer to nail down Kaczynski. They both had the same big ego and big mouth! If Cooper survived to have a long career,  what did he do with it?

I dont think this was Cooper's first rodeo - or his last! I dont think a mere $200k assuaged Cooper's "grudge".

I'll have to look at my notes, but I thought his demands in the air from Portland were to land in Seattle, get the chutes, and take off by 5, he may have stated lights off for takeoff.  Georger raises a good point about whether it was lights off in the air or on the ground.  On the ground I'd be worried about snipers or someone getting a picture of me, in the air I'd be thinking about being tracked visually by an aircraft or by someone on the ground.  But lights out in the cabin does not mean there would not be a blinking beacon light on the plane (red or green) that people can see from the ground. How would he control the pilot's choosing to keep one of those on?

What are other reasons for having the lights off? He still needs to be able to see in the plane.  Trying to keep his night vision maybe?

Why takeoff by 5PM? A rendezvous with an accomplice? Wanted to make the evening papers? The sun must have been down at 5PM in November in Seattle right?

I think I can answer that - it was lights off both on the ground and when in the air! I have the passages somewhere if someone insists I provide them as evidence.

Insisting on lights off while in the air, is imho a pure tactical move by someone with experience, or a guy that is very intelligent! I asked a friend of mine who is a retired fighter pilot to read the PI Transcript some years back and he quickly nailed this point as a potentially crucial piece of evidence about the hijacker, if its true.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2202 on: June 10, 2019, 12:41:08 AM »
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Keeping the lights out in the air makes the jet much more difficult to see from a trailing jet. Also, it doesn't give away his jump time by virtue of the back stairs lowering and the light from the cabin shining out the back.

Cooper wanted everything in place in Seattle by 5PM. In other words, he wanted to land in Seattle by shortly after 5PM.

Sunset in Seattle on November 24, 1971 was 4:25PM.
.

I agree completely. This whole crime is very tactical.

Two people had an almost visceral fear or dislike of Cooper right from the start: Rataczak and Himms. Both have strong tactical backgrounds not just in their training but personality-wise. Type A personalities.  They may have sensed 'this guy is competing on our level, and is therefore serious and dangerous!' Didnt Rataczak make the comment to the effect: 'This guy must have the manual back there!'. Rataczak thought the best thing to do was to 'take this guy out over the ocean'! Some of these sentiments may have been conveyed to Nyrop when he ordered "full cooperation".  The FAA psychiatrist took it even further is his assessment of Cooper!!  >:D He basically advised that the hijacker might be blood thirsty and ready to go to extremes ... (thankfully he was wrong?)

I still believe there is a very high probability Cooper was armed. I dont think he was flying by the seat of his pants but had backup. Its the tactical thing to do. Cooper behaved as if he had a very high level of confidence. He allowed the refueling to drag out after initially setting a limit on time on the ground, he allowed Hancock to simply walk back on the plane to get her purse!, and he allowed several other openings which people could have taken advantage of. A tactical military unit would have taken advantage of any opening the hijacker gave. But nobody did! Everyone followed Nyrop's orders... 

 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 12:57:34 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2203 on: June 10, 2019, 12:21:24 PM »
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Keeping the lights out in the air makes the jet much more difficult to see from a trailing jet. Also, it doesn't give away his jump time by virtue of the back stairs lowering and the light from the cabin shining out the back.

Cooper wanted everything in place in Seattle by 5PM. In other words, he wanted to land in Seattle by shortly after 5PM.

Sunset in Seattle on November 24, 1971 was 4:25PM.
.

I agree completely. This whole crime is very tactical.

Two people had an almost visceral fear or dislike of Cooper right from the start: Rataczak and Himms. Both have strong tactical backgrounds not just in their training but personality-wise. Type A personalities.  They may have sensed 'this guy is competing on our level, and is therefore serious and dangerous!' Didnt Rataczak make the comment to the effect: 'This guy must have the manual back there!'. Rataczak thought the best thing to do was to 'take this guy out over the ocean'! Some of these sentiments may have been conveyed to Nyrop when he ordered "full cooperation".  The FAA psychiatrist took it even further is his assessment of Cooper!!  >:D He basically advised that the hijacker might be blood thirsty and ready to go to extremes ... (thankfully he was wrong?)

I still believe there is a very high probability Cooper was armed. I dont think he was flying by the seat of his pants but had backup. Its the tactical thing to do. Cooper behaved as if he had a very high level of confidence. He allowed the refueling to drag out after initially setting a limit on time on the ground, he allowed Hancock to simply walk back on the plane to get her purse!, and he allowed several other openings which people could have taken advantage of. A tactical military unit would have taken advantage of any opening the hijacker gave. But nobody did! Everyone followed Nyrop's orders...
This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this forum ! Yes I am quite sure Cooper was armed. I’ve hunted and fished with these type of people most of my life. They come prepared and plan ahead. I’ve said before that most likely Cooper had both an altimiter and compass with him. We know for a fact that he had a knife and why wouldn’t he have a gun also. I have always felt certain he carried a number of other essentials in the bag he brought along. This is a guy who knew exactly what he wanted and was very annoyed when his orders,weren’t obeyed. The arrival of the money in a bank bag was NOT what he asked for and of course created some problems.
The games they were playing with the refueling was of course irratating him also. I feel Cooper researched out pretty much every aspect of this caper and was not a happy camper when his orders were ignored. Somewhere along the line I feel Cooper was in the military as his discipline seems obvious. Unlike Georger however, I think Cooper acted alone. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns ! JMHO
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2204 on: June 10, 2019, 02:34:24 PM »
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Keeping the lights out in the air makes the jet much more difficult to see from a trailing jet. Also, it doesn't give away his jump time by virtue of the back stairs lowering and the light from the cabin shining out the back.

Cooper wanted everything in place in Seattle by 5PM. In other words, he wanted to land in Seattle by shortly after 5PM.

Sunset in Seattle on November 24, 1971 was 4:25PM.
.

I agree completely. This whole crime is very tactical.

Two people had an almost visceral fear or dislike of Cooper right from the start: Rataczak and Himms. Both have strong tactical backgrounds not just in their training but personality-wise. Type A personalities.  They may have sensed 'this guy is competing on our level, and is therefore serious and dangerous!' Didnt Rataczak make the comment to the effect: 'This guy must have the manual back there!'. Rataczak thought the best thing to do was to 'take this guy out over the ocean'! Some of these sentiments may have been conveyed to Nyrop when he ordered "full cooperation".  The FAA psychiatrist took it even further is his assessment of Cooper!!  >:D He basically advised that the hijacker might be blood thirsty and ready to go to extremes ... (thankfully he was wrong?)

I still believe there is a very high probability Cooper was armed. I dont think he was flying by the seat of his pants but had backup. Its the tactical thing to do. Cooper behaved as if he had a very high level of confidence. He allowed the refueling to drag out after initially setting a limit on time on the ground, he allowed Hancock to simply walk back on the plane to get her purse!, and he allowed several other openings which people could have taken advantage of. A tactical military unit would have taken advantage of any opening the hijacker gave. But nobody did! Everyone followed Nyrop's orders...
This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this forum ! Yes I am quite sure Cooper was armed. I’ve hunted and fished with these type of people most of my life. They come prepared and plan ahead. I’ve said before that most likely Cooper had both an altimiter and compass with him. We know for a fact that he had a knife and why wouldn’t he have a gun also. I have always felt certain he carried a number of other essentials in the bag he brought along. This is a guy who knew exactly what he wanted and was very annoyed when his orders,weren’t obeyed. The arrival of the money in a bank bag was NOT what he asked for and of course created some problems.
The games they were playing with the refueling was of course irratating him also. I feel Cooper researched out pretty much every aspect of this caper and was not a happy camper when his orders were ignored. Somewhere along the line I feel Cooper was in the military as his discipline seems obvious. Unlike Georger however, I think Cooper acted alone. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns ! JMHO

I have never said he wasnt acting alone. I dont know of anything in the record that indicates he had an accomplice or was acting with others ... I tend to agree with you Kermit. This type of guy doesn’t like to deal with unknowns .. the issue would be 'control'.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 03:36:52 PM by georger »