Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 150302 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2160 on: May 13, 2019, 11:42:32 PM »
Quote
" "This material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill.""

Even that is a rectangle twenty feet high, a hundred feet wide and 1200' long.

These are huge operations.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2161 on: May 13, 2019, 11:47:00 PM »
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Got it from Flyjack, who posted it (somewhere?)

I quoted directly from the Bechly report! I have no idea what Fly's document is or how it applies. The Bechly report was a direct reply to the FBI concerning dredging materials piped onto the Fazio property. BTW it turned out the money find location was very close to the neighboring property line just north of the Fazio property by no more than a foot or two away at most!   
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2162 on: May 13, 2019, 11:49:27 PM »
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" "This material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill.""

Even that is a rectangle twenty feet high, a hundred feet wide and 1200' long.

These are huge operations.

That's right! That is why its flow characteristics are important. It took two weeks before it settled out enough to even put a tractor on it to spread. Maybe 50% of it flowed back into the river, including north as far as the Ingram find site before flowing back into the river! Even a year later it was not consolidated enough to prevent flow movement, generally in the direction of flow forces. That is one reason why people's static measurements of the separation between the Ingram site and the spoil site are all but meaningless ... 

Before that dredge material consolidates it is subject to movement and erosion generally in the northward direction of flow forces during daily periods of tides, high water periods, etc . It doesn't just sit like a pile of cement hardening! Its more like pudding ... always prone to movement. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 12:10:58 AM by georger »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2163 on: May 14, 2019, 12:07:04 AM »
Marty,

I am not interested in looking for things that simply support Sheridan Peterson as DBC. Indeed, I'm trying to establish the truth.

I have been VERY uncomfortable with the notion that nothing has been found in the FBI search area or anywhere along the flight path that I would expect to find--body, money, parachute, attache case. Moreover, the money find on Tena Bar and the placard find also made me question what the truth was. So I studied both.

I walked away with a mathematical analysis that indicates the placard separated from the jet 8 statute miles SW of the placard find. That analysis is what it is. I believe it is very accurate and have found absolutely no reason to consider it wrong. Talk from others about the placard separating from another 727 flying with its airstairs open is pure nonsense and taking deniability to an epic new level. Talk about winds coming from the SE that night is also not realistic given the data we have, and apparently the data the FBI used to craft the landing zone relative to their believed flight path.

The money on Tena Bar also is what it is. Paper currency can't bury itself, let alone for 6 years. We have high altitude pictures that show precisely where the dredge spoils were spread. This is impossible to refute. Tom Kaye's money find spot was about 150 feet from the edge of the spoils and about 260 feet from the actual money find spot. The distance from the actual money find spot to the edge of the dredge spoils is 400 feet. This is a fact based upon photographic evidence.

Additionally, there is a lot more to consider when looking at Tena Bar. Specifically, that fact that it is for all intents and purpose on an island. This greatly limits the possibilities of human arrival paths. Also, the spot where the jet would be located at 8:12 PM--certainly not upstream from Tena Bar. Plus, the fact that most of the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge is off-limits makes sense in terms of explaining why nothing has ever been found. Not to mention, the fact that Tina Mucklow said she saw Cooper putting a portion of the ransom in a reserve and what that would mean once DBC landed. Let's also not forget that at some point DBC realized he accidentally left his tie on the jet, I assume this was a matter of some concern to him. This realization affected how he proceeded. There is also the very strong indications that DBC intended to jump very near Seattle, meaning he landed in an area he didn't intend to land.

All of this has been considered at great length by me and has caused me to arrive at the belief that the western flight path is the most accurate version, and that human intervention was involved with burying the cash on Tena Bar, and that DBC survived. This really has nothing to do with Sheridan Peterson except to say that I consider Sheridan the most likely candidate for DBC based upon a separate stand-alone analysis of him.

My motivation is simple. I want the truth and to be able to prove it.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2164 on: May 14, 2019, 12:13:48 AM »
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Marty,

I am not interested in looking for things that simply support Sheridan Peterson as DBC. Indeed, I'm trying to establish the truth.

I have been VERY uncomfortable with the notion that nothing has been found in the FBI search area or anywhere along the flight path that I would expect to find--body, money, parachute, attache case. Moreover, the money find on Tena Bar and the placard find also made me question what the truth was. So I studied both.

I walked away with a mathematical analysis that indicates the placard separated from the jet 8 statute miles SW of the placard find. That analysis is what it is. I believe it is very accurate and have found absolutely no reason to consider it wrong. Talk from others about the placard separating from another 727 flying with its airstairs open is pure nonsense and taking deniability to an epic new level. Talk about winds coming from the SE that night is also not realistic given the data we have, and apparently the data the FBI used to craft the landing zone relative to their believed flight path.

The money on Tena Bar also is what it is. Paper currency can't bury itself, let alone for 6 years. We have high altitude pictures that show precisely where the dredge spoils were spread. This is impossible to refute. Tom Kaye's money find spot was about 150 feet from the edge of the spoils and about 260 feet from the actual money find spot. The distance from the actual money find spot to the edge of the dredge spoils is 400 feet. This is a fact based upon photographic evidence.

Additionally, there is a lot more to consider when looking at Tena Bar. Specifically, that fact that it is for all intents and purpose on an island. This greatly limits the possibilities of human arrival paths. Also, the spot where the jet would be located at 8:12 PM--certainly not upstream from Tena Bar. Plus, the fact that most of the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge is off-limits makes sense in terms of explaining why nothing has ever been found. Not to mention, the fact that Tina Mucklow said she saw Cooper putting a portion of the ransom in a reserve and what that would mean once DBC landed. Let's also not forget that at some point DBC realized he accidentally left his tie on the jet, I assume this was a matter of some concern to him. This realization affected how he proceeded. There is also the very strong indications that DBC intended to jump very near Seattle, meaning he landed in an area he didn't intend to land.

All of this has been considered at great length by me and has caused me to arrive at the belief that the western flight path is the most accurate version, and that human intervention was involved with burying the cash on Tena Bar, and that DBC survived. This really has nothing to do with Sheridan Peterson except to say that I consider Sheridan the most likely candidate for DBC based upon a separate stand-alone analysis of him.

My motivation is simple. I want the truth and to be able to prove it.

Tena Bar. Specifically, ... is for all intents and purpose on an island. All of this has been considered at great length by me and has caused me to arrive at the belief that ...

Really! How is it an island? How does that work?

And DB Cooper is like Gulliver who takes a trip to the island of Glubbdubdrib which is southwest of Balnibarbi. ?

Is there more Cooper money on Laputi ?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 12:22:44 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2165 on: May 14, 2019, 12:36:02 AM »
I'll tell you what GEORGER, pull up Tena Bar on Google Earth. You will notice one piece of land that is 437 feet in length that is directly west of Vancouver Lake and a few miles south of Tena  Bar. If it weren't for that 437 feet of land, Tena Bar would be on an island. The rest of the Tena Bar land mass is surrounded on all sides by 25 miles of the Columbia River, Lake River and Vancouver Lake.

Therefore, either DBC commuted up to Tena Bar via the 437 foot land bridge, swam across a river or lake, or landed on the "island" Tena Bar is located upon. Oh, I should mention, that there is one small bridge that crosses Lake River from Ridgefield leading into, you got it, the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 01:26:44 AM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2166 on: May 14, 2019, 01:02:48 AM »
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I'll tell you what GEORGER, pull up Tena Bar on Google Earth. You will notice one piece of land that is 437 in length that is directly west of Vancouver Lake and a few miles south of Tena  Bar. If it weren't for that 437 feet of land, Tena Bar would be on an island. The rest of the Tena Bar land mass is surrounded on all sides by 25 miles of the Columbia River, Lake River and Vancouver Lake.

Therefore, either DBC commuted up to Tena Bar via the 437 foot land bridge, swam across a river or lake, or landed on the "island" Tena Bar is located upon. Oh, I should mention, that there is one small bridge that crosses Lake River from Ridgefield leading into, you got it, the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge.

Cheers!

I have USGS aerial photos of TBar going back to 1948.

When you find Cooper's loafer footprints and a Cooper twenty in baked mud, be sure to let us know. 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2167 on: May 14, 2019, 02:22:20 AM »
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Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.

Andrade,

Where did you get this 265,000 cubic yards number?  For comparison, the volume of Hoover Dam is 3,250,000 cubic yards.

The nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 feet above sea level (ASL).  The highest land point in the immediate money find location at Tina Bar is only about 25 or 30 feet ASL.  In 2013, Dr. Meyer Louie and I were at Tina Bar and a local fisherman told us he had been there just about ever day for the past 50 years (he also had the key to the Tina Bar gate) and that he had never seen any flow from the river into the cow pond or vice-versa.  This means that the river water level was never more than about 25 feet ASL.

I would suggest that you divide you 265,000 cubic yards by about 1000 to get a realistic number.

Quote from the Bechly report: "This material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill."

Tina Bar may have been a bit more than 100 feet wide in 1974, but it was not 20 feet deep or 1800 feet long.  You simply could not put 265,000 cubic feet of material on Tina Bar.  It is just not big enough.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2168 on: May 14, 2019, 01:26:50 PM »
Just a few notes about SAGE. I worked at Hughes Aircraft which designed and mfd the MA 1 fire control system and came to learn a fair amount about how SAGE worked. The Hughes MA 1 (when it worked) allowed F 106s to establish 2-way data links with SAGE control centers and be automatically flown to target intercept points through autopilot remote control.  When it worked, it was deadly accurate, but it was too often down with various malfunctions. The MA 1 was a sophisticated system employing a very early airborne digital computer and rotating drum multitrack digital memory. The mean time between failure of the MA 1 was classified then, but I can tell you it was miserably short.  There were many subsequent mods made but it never became a robust reliable system. The MA 1 digital computer used discrete transistors, not ICs and there were thousands. SAGE was a monstrously complex system (used over 60,000 vacuum tubes) that allowed input from a network of radars to be combined into a single display. The use of networked geographically dispersed radars eliminated blind spots and extended reach greatly. The SAGE design philosophy didn't care so much about geographical target position accuracy. The purpose wasn't navigation or accurate mapping, it was target detection and intercept. It was far more important to bring the interceptor to the current position of the target for a kill shot than it was to know the exact geographical location of the target. That's not to say it was inaccurate, but intercept was the goal. The target data displayed in the data block on the CRT did not contain target geographical info such as lat lon. There were problems in getting the locations and slight variations in target ranging of the various networked radars properly handled in the system. Any inaccuracies or ambiguities would lead to a single taget appearingf as multiple closely spaced returns on the SAGE display. In the end, SAGE wasnt a very good defensive system, but it did lay the groundwork for better future systems.

377
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2169 on: May 14, 2019, 01:27:33 PM »
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Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.

Andrade,

Where did you get this 265,000 cubic yards number?  For comparison, the volume of Hoover Dam is 3,250,000 cubic yards.

The nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 feet above sea level (ASL).  The highest land point in the immediate money find location at Tina Bar is only about 25 or 30 feet ASL.  In 2013, Dr. Meyer Louie and I were at Tina Bar and a local fisherman told us he had been there just about ever day for the past 50 years (he also had the key to the Tina Bar gate) and that he had never seen any flow from the river into the cow pond or vice-versa.  This means that the river water level was never more than about 25 feet ASL.

I would suggest that you divide you 265,000 cubic yards by about 1000 to get a realistic number.

Quote from the Bechly report: "This material was deposited on the beach area of the FAZIO Brothers’ Farm between August 19 through the 25th, 1974, ‘and consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of fill."

Tina Bar may have been a bit more than 100 feet wide in 1974, but it was not 20 feet deep or 1800 feet long.  You simply could not put 265,000 cubic feet of material on Tina Bar.  It is just not big enough.

I merely provided the data from the report. Take it or leave it!

This has all been discussed to death before.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 01:29:00 PM by georger »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2170 on: May 14, 2019, 01:54:37 PM »
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Robert

Quote
"It is my understanding that the money at Tina Bar was NOT found in the dredge layer."

It is my understanding the sand layer is still in dispute. Or maybe I'm misreading the 5,000 posts on the topic.

Quote
"the golden cities were a myth but that the people who were searching for them had found a beautiful valley to search for their dreams."

That made me smile, thank you :)

Eric

Quote
"Why do I need DBC to have landed anywhere near Tena Bar to be right about Sheridan Peterson? The answer is, I don't."

And this is why I am so bemused at your adamant support of a flight path that does nothing for your hypothesis.

Quote
"Put three packets of cash on the beach and see how long it takes to self-bury. It will never happen."

265,000 cubic yards of dredge spoils suggests to me it doesn't need to self bury.

Quote
" the dredge spreading stopped 400 feet short of the money find spot."

I thought it was 200ft? Regardless, the dredge piles extended far beyond the two bumps we see in those photos. Here's the math: 265,000 cubic yards divided evenly between two 50' radius piles... Perfect cylinders would be 50 feet high! According to my handy Pocket Reference, a 265' Diameter pile o'stuff that is 100 feet (!) tall contains 68,300 cubic yards of material. Two of these giant piles only gives up half the actual amount of spoils that were deposited on Tina Bar in '74.  A perfect rectangle, 100 feet wide and twenty feet deep, would have to span 1800 feet EVEN IF IT LOST HALF the total yardage of the spoils. I don't know what kind of distances we're actually talking about and I don't know enough about dredging to say how to calculate how much area was covered by this operation. But these operations are *huge* and there's plenty of material to get 400' away from that northern bump.

According to the Pocket Reference, the angle of repose for wet sand is 40 degrees. So, you're welcome to do your own math.

Anyway, thanks guys, I really do appreciate being here and talking the case with y'all.

Andrade,

Where did you get this 265,000 cubic yards number?  For comparison, the volume of Hoover Dam is 3,250,000 cubic yards.

The nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 feet above sea level (ASL).  The highest land point in the immediate money find location at Tina Bar is only about 25 or 30 feet ASL.  In 2013, Dr. Meyer Louie and I were at Tina Bar and a local fisherman told us he had been there just about ever day for the past 50 years (he also had the key to the Tina Bar gate) and that he had never seen any flow from the river into the cow pond or vice-versa.  This means that the river water level was never more than about 25 feet ASL.

I would suggest that you divide you 265,000 cubic yards by about 1000 to get a realistic number.

It’s great to quote a fisherman’s memory going back 50 years but that doesn’t make it factual ! I was delivering mail back in 1964 and the Great Christmas flood crested at 27.7 feet. I had a mail route in Milwaukee and the Willamette flooded about 1/3 of my route under water. Also in 1996, we had another flood that crested at 27.6 feet and caused huge damage in the hundreds of Millions as I recall. The 1964 Christmas floods led to quite a few deaths also. I witnessed mobile homes docked at the Sellwood Bridge area break loose and float down the Willamette. I was there in 1948 and witnessed the famous Vanport flood which crested at over 30 ft.as I recall. The river and Tina Bar Robert viewed in 2013 was a shadow of what it was in 1971.
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2171 on: May 14, 2019, 02:09:34 PM »
Yikes. Remind me to never buy a home in a flood plain.

I've spoken with inland pilots who take big freighters up the Columbia and Sacramento Rivers. They tell me that the rivers are always changing and NOAA depth and channel charts can become inaccurate overnight in a flood.

377



 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2172 on: May 14, 2019, 03:08:06 PM »
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Yikes. Remind me to never buy a home in a flood plain.

I've spoken with inland pilots who take big freighters up the Columbia and Sacramento Rivers. They tell me that the rivers are always changing and NOAA depth and channel charts can become inaccurate overnight in a flood.

377

Nobody, not even Tom Kaye, disputes the UNDISTURBED continuity of the strata Palmer found at T_Bar. In other words there is no evidence of the strata having been disturbed or mixed as would happen in a burial. The debate is over the IDENTITY of those strata.

Palmer claimed the found strata were (a) an active surface layer 0-8" deep approx, (b) a cross bedded layer to about  14-24" inches deep, and (c) a thick layer of dredging spoils laid down in 1974. Tom disputes Palmer's identification of those layers, especially the layer Palmer assigned to the dredging spoils.

You can actually see these layers in FBI photos taken at the excavation. I have posted several of these photos many times!

I have always said that the crossbedded layer is especially important because it represents multiple high water and erosion events which occurred over time. The question is 'how much time'? And it is this layer in which fragments of money were found - a fact denied by Ulis!

That is the context in which the found money resides and only through a correct interpretation of these strata can the history of those strata and the Ingram find be understood. It's as simple as that. 

 



 
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2173 on: May 14, 2019, 03:11:44 PM »
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It’s great to quote a fisherman’s memory going back 50 years but that doesn’t make it factual ! I was delivering mail back in 1964 and the Great Christmas flood crested at 27.7 feet. I had a mail route in Milwaukee and the Willamette flooded about 1/3 of my route under water. Also in 1996, we had another flood that crested at 27.6 feet and caused huge damage in the hundreds of Millions as I recall. The 1964 Christmas floods led to quite a few deaths also. I witnessed mobile homes docked at the Sellwood Bridge area break loose and float down the Willamette. I was there in 1948 and witnessed the famous Vanport flood which crested at over 30 ft.as I recall. The river and Tina Bar Robert viewed in 2013 was a shadow of what it was in 1971.

Kermit,

I suspect you are relating "gage" readings and not distances above sea level.  And what gage are you referring to?  The Vancouver/Portland gage is located just off shore on the Vancouver side of the Columbia River and just a few hundred feet east of the I-5 bridge.

It is agreed that the Tina Bar area has a huge erosion problem.  But the aerial pictures from the early 1970s can be used to estimate that erosion.

Do you know of a source for the gage readings at Vancouver/Portland in the 1971 to 1973 time frame?  Also, can you clarify how the earlier readings were adjusted to put them in the WGS84 system? 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2174 on: May 14, 2019, 03:20:56 PM »
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I merely provided the data from the report. Take it or leave it!

This has all been discussed to death before.

I'll leave it!  But I agree that this has been discussed to death.