Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 185555 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1695 on: April 06, 2019, 03:16:23 PM »
Sounds right to me...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1696 on: April 06, 2019, 03:23:00 PM »
The FDR in that plane required a microscope table in order to read the foil. they had some sort of timing at that point or wouldn't have noted 8:09 which could of been anything. they believed the search area should be moved 3 miles north which makes sense but then they claim to move the search all the way to the Columbia from the center of the original jump point. that alone is a very wild thing to state while believing the 8:09 position was above Lake Merwin.
 

Online georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1697 on: April 06, 2019, 03:24:29 PM »
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Sounds right to me...

Im just quoting from the records/testimony.

BTW I have a folder on the FDR etc - somewhere. Organizing files for retrieval is a major problem or me in this NORJAK thing.  But I finally have an excellent search program that can find almost anything in my files ... its just a matter of time and willpower.

To be continued ... 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 03:26:02 PM by georger »
 

Online georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1698 on: April 06, 2019, 03:25:25 PM »
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The FDR in that plane required a microscope table in order to read the foil. they had some sort of timing at that point or wouldn't have noted 8:09 which could of been anything. they believed the search area should be moved 3 miles north which makes sense but then they claim to move the search all the way to the Columbia from the center of the original jump point. that alone is a very wild thing to state while believing the 8:09 position was above Lake Merwin.

I know - I have been following it daily ...

I am very glad to have R99 back!  :chr2:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 03:27:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1699 on: April 06, 2019, 03:45:36 PM »
The flight path reminds me a lot of the Palmer Report.

Palmer, expert or not, was wrong. The strata he identified as 1974 dredge material was not. This mistake effectively made the truth regarding the money find impossible to discover for 28 years. Why? Because according to him the packets of cash had to arrive after August 1974. This severely limited the likely options, including the truth.

The truth is, I could have questioned Palmer's Report in 1980 and stated I think he's wrong for any number of reasons. For example, the rubber band issue. Also, the fact we were dealing with three independent packets of cash that just coincidentally happened to self-bury themselves together. Or the fact that nothing else was found (stinking corpse, cash blowing in the wind, parachutes, attache case, etc.). In turn, everyone would have commented, "Exactly what are your credentials Eric? Dr. Palmer is an expert." Yet, I would have turned out to be right as later proved by Tom Kaye and his group in 2008.

This flight path strikes me as a very familiar story. It reminds me of the Palmer Report. My point is, using terms like "expert," "Air Force," "SAGE," and the like sounds impressive, but when nasty little evidence starts materializing that suggests something is wrong someone needs to ask the Air Force or FBI the question, "Now tell me again how you arrived at this flight path?"
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 03:46:57 PM by EU »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1700 on: April 06, 2019, 03:57:02 PM »
can you provide the scientific proof Palmer was wrong. I question it as well but I'm not in that field to state for a fact that it's wrong.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1701 on: April 06, 2019, 03:58:32 PM »
Do you have the Palmer report?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1702 on: April 06, 2019, 04:06:33 PM »
My problem going against Palmer is artifacts found in the levels of sand. older rusted objects show up as you go down. I find it odd that the dredge layer would still be there but I'm not really sure. we also don't know how bad the erosion was in 1980 vs today. if it was that bad the money location should of been long gone if buried in 71. I'm not sure any of us can tell this board anything scientific without yearly samples or documenting the beach levels using a transit.

Did you ask the Fazio's how they put the sand on the beach in 74?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1703 on: April 06, 2019, 04:32:54 PM »
Quote
This flight path strikes me as a very familiar story. It reminds me of the Palmer Report. My point is, using terms like "expert," "Air Force," "SAGE," and the like sounds impressive, but when nasty little evidence starts materializing that suggests something is wrong someone needs to ask the Air Force or FBI the question, "Now tell me again how you arrived at this flight path?"

It's not meant to sound impressive. it's reality. you guys do that, not the other way around. when you have "qualified" good enough? people telling you that the plane didn't leave a certain area you have to believe that person. "nasty little evidence" sound like the kettle calling the pot black thingy, no?

what would the Sage radar be, amateur but not "nasty little evidence"?
Traffic controllers are prone to being off on locating planes in the sky similar to a armchair investigator basing facts with speculation?
transcripts matching parts of the flight. typical armchair weekenders jotting things down?

You need to show me where the traffic controllers were wrong looking right at a screen in real time. I'll admit, and have in the past that the placard is troubling. none of us can prove that 7 years later was the exact location that card has always been. if it was a metal plate it would be a different story. it weighs nothing. one ounce. was it up in the trees for several years. can you prove that, or that it didn't move? these are "nasty little things" to consider. I do like the theory but it has problems. it's like you trying to tell me I never lived in Ohio when I can show plenty of proof.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1704 on: April 06, 2019, 10:38:32 PM »
Tom Kaye said that given the erosion he was able to identify the same layer (the layer identified by Palmer as '74 dredge) along the beach which he says is actually a natural layer.

There obviously has been a significant amount of erosion...I've posted a pic below. The picture  was taken by me this January. The dirt access road is at the top of the bluff. In fact, if you recall the picture from the helicopter in 1980 that shows the agents digging with the FBI car parked on the access road...the car would be on the road in this picture. It's difficult to tell but the initial drop off from the road is about 2.5 feet I would guess. Then it slopes down a little and drops off another 6-12 inches. Then it continues to slope and drops off another 3 inches or so to the actual beach which is sandy and slopes into the water. You can see how the strata levels have been uncovered here up to and including portions underneath the access road which obviously weren't from any dredge.

Richard showed me on Tena Bar that the spoils would run like a slurry back down onto the beach and much of it back into the Columbia. After it dried, the Fazio's would then use their spreaders to push the sand along the beach. This is well documented in the high altitude pics of Tena from that era. The significant beach erosion started after the dredge spoils were no longer placed on the beach.

Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1705 on: April 06, 2019, 11:09:37 PM »
It really can't be shown from the air in regards to erosion. I thought that as well until Hominid pointed out that the tides will be different in the pics obviously taken at different times during the day or even seasons when the tides are really high. Meyer couldn't even get on the beach. it was covered.
 

Online georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1706 on: April 06, 2019, 11:50:49 PM »
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Tom Kaye said that given the erosion he was able to identify the same layer (the layer identified by Palmer as '74 dredge) along the beach which he says is actually a natural layer.

There obviously has been a significant amount of erosion...I've posted a pic below. The picture  was taken by me this January. The dirt access road is at the top of the bluff. In fact, if you recall the picture from the helicopter in 1980 that shows the agents digging with the FBI car parked on the access road...the car would be on the road in this picture. It's difficult to tell but the initial drop off from the road is about 2.5 feet I would guess. Then it slopes down a little and drops off another 6-12 inches. Then it continues to slope and drops off another 3 inches or so to the actual beach which is sandy and slopes into the water. You can see how the strata levels have been uncovered here up to and including portions underneath the access road which obviously weren't from any dredge.

Richard showed me on Tena Bar that the spoils would run like a slurry back down onto the beach and much of it back into the Columbia. After it dried, the Fazio's would then use their spreaders to push the sand along the beach. This is well documented in the high altitude pics of Tena from that era. The significant beach erosion started after the dredge spoils were no longer placed on the beach.


lighter bigger version ...
 

Online georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1707 on: April 06, 2019, 11:54:16 PM »
One of Tom's erosion photos ... see larger version on his website.
 

Online georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1708 on: April 07, 2019, 03:36:05 PM »
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I had some time to kill yesterday as my wife had a appointment in nearby Castle Rock. I took a ride up to the area of the Placard find location. It’s quite a few miles East of I 5. I’m not sure exactly how many miles “ as the crow flies “, but it’s quite a jaunt via wheels. Silver Lake is 7 to 8 miles, Toutle is 10 miles and it’s S E of Toutle. The area has been heavily hunted and logged over the last 47 years so it’s doubtful anything Cooper related is still lying around. I think Carroll Hicks has passed away but I’ve never got the name of his hunting partner. I am friends with several who grew up in Toutle and Longview/Kelso area. I encountered several logging trucks exiting the area stacked high so there’s plenty of logging activity as we speak.

Ive been wanting to ask you something - - -

As a longtime resident and mailman at Portland, did you ever hear anything like the 'Janet story', any witness reports like it, or anything about Janet and her husband and their account?

 
 

Online georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1709 on: April 07, 2019, 04:40:33 PM »
Turbulence at 8:05 - 8:09 timestamp ...

Its interesting Scott remembered this specifically. I suppose they were trying to line Cooper up to jumping, stabilizing the aircraft etc ... they wanted him gone, no doubt about that! Tina had come forward earlier and said she thought he was getting ready to jump. Turbulence hits at 8:05-09 so Scott calls back to ask if he is ok. More minutes pass. Scott calls back at 8:10 but no answer. Then Cooper answers abruptly saying 'everything is ok'. Then oscillations and a bump? Is that the correct order of these events on someone's timescale? Its interesting Scott doesnt call back asking if everything is ok at 8:15? ATC suggests they might want to go back and check on the bomb but apparently that never happened either? The implicit assumption by everyone (I think) is that Cooper has jumped and is gone by: 8:15?

And I still cant place "and the lights of Vancouver were coming up" into this chain of events. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 04:43:24 PM by georger »