Author Topic: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation  (Read 18812 times)

Offline fcastle866

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2018, 09:48:34 AM »
My opinion is that the aft stairs are a red herring, as are the "rare particles" on the tie, and the Tena Bar money.  What if this was not some huge conspiracy, and the people that did it were not CIA, and they didn't work at Boeing and they weren't Special Ops?  By 1971, anyone who had been in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam, would have seen plenty of situations where planes operated in much worse conditions than with the aft stairs deployed.  There are plenty of stories of planes flying that were missing wings, engines, with pieces hanging off, etc.  All DB Cooper had to do was listen to one person tell a story of a plane flying with stairs deployed, it did not have to be a 727.  This hijacking was borderline amateur.  Why does everything have to lead back to Boeing, the CIA, paratroopers?  There were thousands of federal agents and other law enforcement looking at Boeing.  What are the chances that the guy worked there and then slipped through the cracks?  The FBI has solved almost every other case.  They did not just let Peterson or any other suspect off because they did not meet the height description.  If any of these suspects was DB Cooper, the FBI would have gotten them.  From my perspective, every time we point to Boeing or to Special Forces/paratroopers, we are all falling right into the confirmation bias trap.  Has anyone taken the Israeli "Red Team"/Tenth Man/Devils advocate approach?  What if it was none of these people?  What if the man who shot JFK was just a regular Marine who got lucky that day?  Regardless, I'm in this for the fun of the case.  Every new suspect or idea gets the blood flowing.  Thanks for all of it. EU, looks like some good reading coming soon in July.
 
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Offline EU

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    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2018, 11:03:22 AM »
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Not too hard to beat Reca with his absurd claim about where he landed. Sheridan has never claimed to be Cooper, quite the contrary. He has opined that Cooper was "stupid" and that he died in the jump. He even thinks he knows where Cooper's body ended up which interestingly also conflicts with the generally accepted flight path data.

Sheridan has written a moving book, The Idiots Frightful Laughter which I have read at least part of. There may be a subsequent part that I have not yet seen. A skillful and gifted screenwriter and director could craft a very interesting movie based on the book, which is about the Vietnam war and I think also about Sheridan's life. The DB Cooper aura and possibilities could create some cool atmospherics. It could have shades of Apocalypse Now. Instead of surfing in a war zone you could have skydiving, which really occurred. If Cooper's grudge came out of war crime horrors he witnessed in Vietnam, how lucky we were that it manifested itself in a no injury money heist rather than a murderous revenge.

377

377,

Would you care to amplify on the first paragraph above?

Also, do you have the dates for Sheridan's employment at Boeing and the building that he worked in?

He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.

Was Org2-5000 located at Boeing Field, the same location as the Museum of Flight?  Or was it located at another site.

The test flying on the Boeing 727 was done in the time frame you listed for SP's employment at Boeing.  It is my guess at this point (no solid proof yet) that the FAA required at least a demonstration of the 727's capabilities to takeoff and land with the aft stairs "floating" down but unlocked for certification.  This demonstration could be done in one flight.  Anyone witnessing this takeoff and landing would know, as Cooper claimed to know, that the 727 could takeoff with the aft stairs down (but not locked).

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Offline dice

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2018, 11:24:38 AM »
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I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.

talking about Peterson is going backwards... Mucklow eliminated him....  hes as white as a slice of bread, with beaming blue eyes (yes, I know, they had brown contacts back then)
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Offline MEYDC

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2018, 12:52:35 PM »
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I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.

talking about Peterson is going backwards... Mucklow eliminated him....  hes as white as a slice of bread, with beaming blue eyes (yes, I know, they had brown contacts back then)
I don't believe Mucklow had eliminated him. Actually he has olive skin.
 
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georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
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My opinion is that the aft stairs are a red herring, as are the "rare particles" on the tie, and theTena Bar m oney.  What if this was not some huge conspiracy, and the people that did it were not CIA, and they didn't work at Boeing and they weren't Special Ops?  By 1971, anyone who had been in World War II, Korea, or Vietnam, would have seen plenty of situations where planes operated in much worse conditions than with the aft stairs deployed.  There are plenty of stories of planes flying that were missing wings, engines, with pieces hanging off, etc.  All DB Cooper had to do was listen to one person tell a story of a plane flying with stairs deployed, it did not have to be a 727.  This hijacking was borderline amateur.  Why does everything have to lead back to Boeing, the CIA, paratroopers?  There were thousands of federal agents and other law enforcement looking at Boeing.  What are the chances that the guy worked there and then slipped through the cracks?  The FBI has solved almost every other case.  They did not just let Peterson or any other suspect off because they did not meet the height description.  If any of these suspects was DB Cooper, the FBI would have gotten them.  From my perspective, every time we point to Boeing or to Special Forces/paratroopers, we are all falling right into the confirmation bias trap.  Has anyone taken the Israeli "Red Team"/Tenth Man/Devils advocate approach?  What if it was none of these people?  What if the man who shot JFK was just a regular Marine who got lucky that day?  Regardless, I'm in this for the fun of the case.  Every new suspect or idea gets the blood flowing.  Thanks for all of it. EU, looks like some good reading coming soon in July.

Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 01:14:13 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2018, 01:54:16 PM »
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Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?
[/quote]

Georger: I absolutely do not think the Tena Bar money was a plant.  I think it just ended up there.  Probably fell out of his pocket during the jump or was scattered on landing.  DB Cooper was not a detective, and he didn't write crime novels.  I just don't see him planting money there.  But, it's possible.  I personally think he got out of the area as soon as possible.  I'd really like to see someone track down a $20, because I think that someone had to have spent some of the money.  But all of that is for curiosity.

Without starting a series of back and forth comments, here is where I was coming from.  There is a concept in statistics/analysis called Design of Experiments (some of you could probably teach a class on it).  Within that is a concept called blocking.  Essentially, when doing an analysis, you block out one variable, and see what the results are without that variable.  I'm advocating "blocking" the money at Tena Bar. Take it out of all the analysis.  Then see what happens.  We know it was his money, we know it left the plane, we know it landed.  Leave it at that.  Analyze the case without it.  I'd block Boeing, and Special Ops too.

We know the FBI used technology.  We know that technology has advanced (DNA, electron microscopes).  However, was there ever a full blown analysis of the case?  Design of experiments? What if's? Removing bias? All of it.  The Navy SEAL's killed Bin Laden, but it was an analyst who found him.  I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works.

 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2018, 02:40:55 PM »
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Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?

Georger: I absolutely do not think the Tena Bar money was a plant.  I think it just ended up there.  Probably fell out of his pocket during the jump or was scattered on landing.  DB Cooper was not a detective, and he didn't write crime novels.  I just don't see him planting money there.  But, it's possible.  I personally think he got out of the area as soon as possible.  I'd really like to see someone track down a $20, because I think that someone had to have spent some of the money.  But all of that is for curiosity.

Without starting a series of back and forth comments, here is where I was coming from.  There is a concept in statistics/analysis called Design of Experiments (some of you could probably teach a class on it).  Within that is a concept called blocking.  Essentially, when doing an analysis, you block out one variable, and see what the results are without that variable.  I'm advocating "blocking" the money at Tena Bar. Take it out of all the analysis.  Then see what happens.  We know it was his money, we know it left the plane, we know it landed.  Leave it at that.  Analyze the case without it.  I'd block Boeing, and Special Ops too.

We know the FBI used technology.  We know that technology has advanced (DNA, electron microscopes).  However, was there ever a full blown analysis of the case?  Design of experiments? What if's? Removing bias? All of it.  The Navy SEAL's killed Bin Laden, but it was an analyst who found him.  I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works.
[/quote]

I like your way of thinking and see no reason to not ALSO pursue independent ideas.
 
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georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2018, 02:44:31 PM »
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Basically I agree.

Why do you say the Tina Bar money is a red herring? You think it was a plant?

Georger: I absolutely do not think the Tena Bar money was a plant.  I think it just ended up there.  Probably fell out of his pocket during the jump or was scattered on landing.  DB Cooper was not a detective, and he didn't write crime novels.  I just don't see him planting money there.  But, it's possible.  I personally think he got out of the area as soon as possible.  I'd really like to see someone track down a $20, because I think that someone had to have spent some of the money.  But all of that is for curiosity.

Without starting a series of back and forth comments, here is where I was coming from.  There is a concept in statistics/analysis called Design of Experiments (some of you could probably teach a class on it).  Within that is a concept called blocking.  Essentially, when doing an analysis, you block out one variable, and see what the results are without that variable.  I'm advocating "blocking" the money at Tena Bar. Take it out of all the analysis.  Then see what happens.  We know it was his money, we know it left the plane, we know it landed.  Leave it at that.  Analyze the case without it.  I'd block Boeing, and Special Ops too.

We know the FBI used technology.  We know that technology has advanced (DNA, electron microscopes).  However, was there ever a full blown analysis of the case?  Design of experiments? What if's? Removing bias? All of it.  The Navy SEAL's killed Bin Laden, but it was an analyst who found him.  I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works.
[/quote]
[/quote]


wow! I couldnt agree more, with just about everything you say. Problem is we cant get to the data to do an analysis, or any kind! Prints, dna, etc. The money analysis (that could be done) doesn't go very deep. But I agree with your point of view! Thanks! 

something went wrong in posting this - cant get it to frame correctly. sorry.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 02:45:38 PM by georger »
 
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Offline 377

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2018, 02:50:42 PM »
Kermit wrote:  "I'd rather jump from a 727 than do the analysis, but I know the concept works."

Now there is a man who has his priorities right.  ;)

Jumping tomorrow with HF, VHF and UHF voice and data comm gear. Also 5.8 GHz air to ground video. Live GPS telemetry and physio telemetry as well, heart rate and blood oxygen level.

Had Cooper been radio savvy (and Jo claims Duane was) he could have talked to the East Coast under canopy using a 3 watt radio powered by AA penlight batteries. 

Here is proof: (listen starting at 9:21)  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

 
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Offline Lynn

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2018, 04:02:53 PM »
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MEYDC wrote: "I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody."

Sailshaw would be delighted, for sure. When I met him in person he couldn't understand why I thought for one second that Peterson might not be Cooper. To him it was a slam dunk. Zero doubt.

377
To be honest, I've never been able to eliminate Sheridan. And I LOVE the guy. But I keep coming back to him. If it was him, I think the reasons for not confessing could be both a sense of guilt about the affected crew, and the fact that he has heirs. If it's not him, though, someone should still do a story about his life. What a life.
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2018, 04:10:41 PM »
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I recall something about Sheridan opining that Cooper's body was likely underwater behind the Dalles Dam. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Don't know for sure which Boeing bldg(s) he worked in. Sailshaw claimed to know. Might look up some of Sailshaw's posts with the key words "scrap bins". He claimed Sheridan walked right by the scrap bins on the way to his work desk. He said that titanium, aluminum and other tie elements were common in those bins and that employees often scavenged stuff for personal use.

377

Now how would it be possible for Cooper’s body to be behind the Dalles Dam ! Does he realize there’s Bonneville Dam downstream many miles from the Dalles Dam ? Did a huge fish gobble up his body and swallow him and them makes it’s way up the Bonneville locks and deposit his body behind the Dalles Dam which would require this huge fish to them also work its way over the Dalles locks ? Another tall tale that has no basis in reality !

This is one of those situations where knowing Sheridan provides some insight. Here is what I mean: Obviously the Dallas Dam is not even close to Tena Bar--many miles upstream. I asked him where this theory came from based upon the facts as we know them and he quickly relented by stating he was mistaken and doesn't know all the facts like the Cooper "addicts." This statement was made to imply that he doesn't really know much about the Cooper case, which is not true. Also, talk of the Dallas Dam is so off-base and obviously wrong it reminds me of the tactic that Cooper used when he told the pilots to fly to Mexico City without stopping anywhere in the US to refuel. Cooper knew well that the range of the 727 in the configuration he demanded would not get them anywhere close to Mexico City without a fuel stop. Cooper's intent, as was Sheridan's, was to plant a seed in the minds of investigators that he had know idea what he was doing and that the skyjacking was the by-product of a half-baked plan from a guy with little to no knowledge about the 727 and parachuting. Again, Sheridan has attempted the same thing with me and others many times when questioned about Cooper.
I was struck by the "extra" feature about SP on the History doc. His theories on why Cooper must have died were very close to the kind of thing Cossey was saying later in his life (and a far cry from what Cossey was saying on the History doc with Nimoy in 1979) and have been debunked by many skydivers on these forums over the years. It was like he wanted to encourage the idea that DBC was dead. With so many confessions over the years, Cooperites seem to forget that the real Cooper would have been better off "dead" in the eyes of the law. I'm not sure Sail was right about the letters - if Cooper benefited from appearing dead, the letters would counteract that - but I still see no reason apart from eye colour (confirmed by only one witness - the one most clearly in shock) to eliminate him. In fairness, though, I also have no firm reason to eliminate Gossett. Other suspects are much easier to rule out than those two and the gentleman whose daughter is still looking for him.
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2018, 04:40:12 PM »
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Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
I actually feel the reasons for eliminating Sheridan are far flimsier than the circumstantial evidence against him. Shaky alibi? Check.  Anyone missing him in the US at that time? Nope, because he was already abroad (could also be significant for laundering purposes - I'm pretty sure, say, Nepalese tellers were not all over the DBC hunt).

The swarthy complexion means - nothing, nothing, nothing. After 2 days in Thailand, I was dark as a coffee bean, and I never tanned a day before in my life with so much Irish blood I look like a mashed potato. After 5-6 years in Southeast Asia, SP HAD to be dark. I've lived in Asian. You will tan. You will burn. You will, if as fair as I, be sick as a dog first.

Marcelled hair, my ass. There, I've said it. That description comes from ONE witness who couldn't even correctly identify which FA sat next to DBC through most of the flight. Paint shop or no, I take everything that particular witness says with a massive dose of salt. I do think the outfit was probably a mismatched combo of black and brown, based on the Mitchell and Mucklow descriptions. Hair is the least consistent item in the witness descriptions.

Needed stair instructions - meh. Probably more familiar with the military model than the
civilian, or just never had to open the door himself before. Didn't need parachute instructions, though = not his first rodeo. I also don't see any evidence that Cooper wasn't a top jumper. "Too experienced" is not a problem for me. Besides, he could also be attempting to hide expertise, after already revealing he didn't need jump instructions, recognizing Portland from the air, and revealing he knew the oxygen location.

According to EU, two other suspects were CLEARED, but SP was not, exactly. They couldn't prove he was aboard, but their DNA is incomplete and not even surely Cooper's. Just because they can't convict him doesn't prove he didn't do it.

Exposure to tie environment - well, presuming (and we can't really presume this) the 3-yr-old tie wasn't purchased at the Portland Sally Ann on Nov 23, and was even Cooper's tie - the one element not explained by SP's background was a common element. It was probably on my dad's clothes - he repaired TVs and always had a half-dozen around with their tubes exposed. MY clothes could have contained that element.

I love Sheridan. But nothing has convinced me to eliminate him - except an eye colour confirmed by one (very much in shock) witness, who changed her story about when he donned the glasses in her interviews. Ditto Gossett, though with him I am concerned about alibi. I'm not very clear on whether his whereabouts for Nov 24 can be verified. (I also do not eliminate the possibility of Cooper's death; the story of the woman with the missing dad is compelling). Most suspects I have far less trouble eliminating. Which is not to say that ANY of the people named thus far did it.
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2018, 04:43:44 PM »
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I think Sheridan Peterson is a good suspect. I would love to know about the DNA tests that were done. They need to find those cigarette butts, or try some of the Cooper hair samples. I think that a deceased member of this forum would be happy that his suspect is being mentioned and investigated further by somebody.

talking about Peterson is going backwards... Mucklow eliminated him....  hes as white as a slice of bread, with beaming blue eyes (yes, I know, they had brown contacts back then)
Whoa, when did Mucklow eliminate him? She eliminated Rackstraw in the History doc. I have seen nothing anywhere to suggest she eliminated Peterson. And before anyone says she MUST have been shown his photo somewhere along the way - proof, or it didn't happen.
 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2018, 05:12:24 PM »
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Sheridan Petersen ranks low on my list of suspects, not eliminated.. KC and Reca don't even make the list. There are probably thousands of suspects known and unknown that can be made to fit with circumstantial evidence. Some are just better than others..


Problems I have with SP..

Cooper - Latin/Mexican swarthy, marcelled "Nixon" like hair.

Cooper - needed instructions for rear stairs and then had trouble lowering them. Shows lack of knowledge/competence.

Cooper had jump experience but wasn't a top flight jumper. SP was TOO experienced.

SP was a high profile suspect, DNA was taken. DO we know it wasn't compared or just unconfirmed.

No clear exposure to tie environment.

and the totality of the circumstantial evidence that exists for SP is generally weak.



Until the FBI puts some dude on that plane, all we will have is circumstantial evidence.. some better than others.
I actually feel the reasons for eliminating Sheridan are far flimsier than the circumstantial evidence against him. Shaky alibi? Check.  Anyone missing him in the US at that time? Nope, because he was already abroad (could also be significant for laundering purposes - I'm pretty sure, say, Nepalese tellers were not all over the DBC hunt).

The swarthy complexion means - nothing, nothing, nothing. After 2 days in Thailand, I was dark as a coffee bean, and I never tanned a day before in my life with so much Irish blood I look like a mashed potato. After 5-6 years in Southeast Asia, SP HAD to be dark. I've lived in Asian. You will tan. You will burn. You will, if as fair as I, be sick as a dog first.

Marcelled hair, my ass. There, I've said it. That description comes from ONE witness who couldn't even correctly identify which FA sat next to DBC through most of the flight. Paint shop or no, I take everything that particular witness says with a massive dose of salt. I do think the outfit was probably a mismatched combo of black and brown, based on the Mitchell and Mucklow descriptions. Hair is the least consistent item in the witness descriptions.

Needed stair instructions - meh. Probably more familiar with the military model than the
civilian, or just never had to open the door himself before. Didn't need parachute instructions, though = not his first rodeo. I also don't see any evidence that Cooper wasn't a top jumper. "Too experienced" is not a problem for me. Besides, he could also be attempting to hide expertise, after already revealing he didn't need jump instructions, recognizing Portland from the air, and revealing he knew the oxygen location.

According to EU, two other suspects were CLEARED, but SP was not, exactly. They couldn't prove he was aboard, but their DNA is incomplete and not even surely Cooper's. Just because they can't convict him doesn't prove he didn't do it.

Exposure to tie environment - well, presuming (and we can't really presume this) the 3-yr-old tie wasn't purchased at the Portland Sally Ann on Nov 23, and was even Cooper's tie - the one element not explained by SP's background was a common element. It was probably on my dad's clothes - he repaired TVs and always had a half-dozen around with their tubes exposed. MY clothes could have contained that element.

I love Sheridan. But nothing has convinced me to eliminate him - except an eye colour confirmed by one (very much in shock) witness, who changed her story about when he donned the glasses in her interviews. Ditto Gossett, though with him I am concerned about alibi. I'm not very clear on whether his whereabouts for Nov 24 can be verified. (I also do not eliminate the possibility of Cooper's death; the story of the woman with the missing dad is compelling). Most suspects I have far less trouble eliminating. Which is not to say that ANY of the people named thus far did it.

As I started digging into Sheridan I determined two things had to be explored and reasonably well answered, otherwise, Sheridan may not be Cooper.

First, the DNA as I've mentioned in previous posts actually incriminates Sheridan given the FBI's silence on clarifying his results...unlike the only other compared suspects, Weber and LD. This is a fact.

Second, the eye color is very suspect per the following facts. Flo was the only flight attendant to see him without sunglasses, this at the very beginning when he handed her the note. About the time she sat down next to him he dawned dark sunglasses for the rest of the event. As anyone who has flown knows, aircraft are not particularly well lit which can make ascertaining true eye color difficult. Also, FBI files state that when discussing his eyes with a sketch artist Flo couldn't be certain. In fact, later FBI descriptions of Cooper state "possibly brown" as his eye color, not exactly a lot of certainty there. These facts indicate that the FBI really isn't sure what color his eyes were. It would be foolish to assume Cooper's eye color was brown, there is simply no proof to back that up.

Finally, we know as a fact Sheridan wasn't precluded from the FBI following up 30+ years later to gather DNA, blue eyes and all. The results of which, I might add, have never been publicly released. Why?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline fcastle866

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2018, 06:18:13 PM »
The only person to see his eyes was Flo?? And that was only for a few seconds? One does not confuse bright blue eyes with dark brown eyes.  Eyes are one of those things you don't usually forget.  From everything I've read and been told, he had very distinct dark brown eyes.