Author Topic: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation  (Read 69058 times)

georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2018, 03:29:08 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

Partial or partials?

Multiple contributors?

Yes, yes and yes.

To answer the second question first: Yes there are multiple donors--three--on the tie.

Regarding the first question: All of the DNA related to the three donors is partial.

Finally, there was one donor who contributed saliva to the tie. It is likely that this is Cooper's DNA given it is easy to envision Cooper smoking, drinking or eating and inadvertently contributing the sample.

None of this explains what happened to the cigarette butts and shaft of hair. Or, why the FBI feels certain enough about their partial DNA profile to publicly exclude Weber and LD by virtue of that DNA while avoiding questions about Sheridan's results.

So three donors, each a partial, one partial from saliva, (the other two epithelial cells?), ... so if all three eliminate a person then the person can be said to be 'strongly eliminated' by virtue of three eliminations! ?  :)  If you dont know which sample is Cooper's then you always must test against all three samples.

Any info on confidence levels of each partial?

Oh! and I forgot. If sex of one contributor is known to be female, then AMEL also was tested for and registered on all samples which means they are testing outside of Codis-13 on all samples, up to at least 14 or 15 or more? That would be standard practice and  means .....

I have read that one of the donors was female, however, have been unable to confirm that.

I asked the FBI about the confidence level of the DNA, however, was given a response that avoided the question, instead stating the FBI has been unable to come up with evidence meeting the legal threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt."

I have asked the same questions but only get back smiles - they cant share specifics is what this boils down to. They know we can extrapolate a lot from from a few details. Tom Kaye may have been one person who said a female was involved? Would have to check notes.

I guess we have to leave it there - thanks and GL! 

BTW just for the record, I dont know anyone in the genetics industry who was personally involved in any of this testing. I even asked around but could not find anyone personally involved at Quantico or elsewhere. Tom Kaye seems to know more than anyone Ive talked to, whoever he got his info from ... ?? 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 03:32:35 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2018, 04:29:02 PM »
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I wonder about how much to value the tie.  I may be way off here, but if I remember correctly, the tie was found sitting on Cooper's seat.  It's tough to have your clip-on tie fall off, and land underneath you, on your seat.  Also, airline rows are cramped.  So, even if he had stood up, and was facing towards his seat, you would think that a guy who is 5'10"-6'0" would have to be hunched over to stand.  Being hunched over, his head would be positioned looking down.  It would be tough not to notice your tie falling off in that scenario.  That makes me think that he purposely took the tie off and left it in the one spot he knew would ensure it would most likely be linked to him before any other passengers.

I know that DNA wasn't something that criminals thought about back then, but could there have been something else about the tie that Cooper thought would lead investigators in the wrong direction?  Maybe he thought they'd be able to pull fingerprints from a used tie, and picked up a tie at a yard sale, or at Goodwill, or something similar.

A couple of things to keep in mind.

First, I am convinced that he removed the tie with the intent to secure it before he jumped--it would have had no chance of staying attached to his person otherwise.

Second, given Cooper's propensity to hoard possible evidence (depleted matchbook, handwritten notes by him and Mucklow, the presumably fake bomb, etc.) and take it with him, I think it is obvious that leaving the tie was a major oversight. I'm certain when he realized this it sent shivers throughout his body.

Finally, if the Kaye examination of the tie had discovered pieces of a burrito and a drop or two of Budweiser I would still consider the "Goodwill" connection a stretch. That said, the actual discovery of pure titanium, aluminum, steel, rare earth elements and others particles that point to Boeing along with a lot of other evidence is just too much to overlook. If Cooper picked this tie up at Goodwill and it just happened to have these particles on it, in my diseased mind that would be an unbelievable coincidence.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline dice

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2018, 09:42:06 PM »
Quote
First, I am convinced that he removed the tie with the intent to secure it before he jumped-

First thing I do when at a wedding,after the ceremony at the reception I loosen my tie to the point of taking it off. 
Purdue 38  Iowa 36
 

Offline sry828

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #123 on: June 28, 2018, 11:57:34 AM »
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I wonder about how much to value the tie.  I may be way off here, but if I remember correctly, the tie was found sitting on Cooper's seat.  It's tough to have your clip-on tie fall off, and land underneath you, on your seat.  Also, airline rows are cramped.  So, even if he had stood up, and was facing towards his seat, you would think that a guy who is 5'10"-6'0" would have to be hunched over to stand.  Being hunched over, his head would be positioned looking down.  It would be tough not to notice your tie falling off in that scenario.  That makes me think that he purposely took the tie off and left it in the one spot he knew would ensure it would most likely be linked to him before any other passengers.

I know that DNA wasn't something that criminals thought about back then, but could there have been something else about the tie that Cooper thought would lead investigators in the wrong direction?  Maybe he thought they'd be able to pull fingerprints from a used tie, and picked up a tie at a yard sale, or at Goodwill, or something similar.

A couple of things to keep in mind.

First, I am convinced that he removed the tie with the intent to secure it before he jumped--it would have had no chance of staying attached to his person otherwise.

Second, given Cooper's propensity to hoard possible evidence (depleted matchbook, handwritten notes by him and Mucklow, the presumably fake bomb, etc.) and take it with him, I think it is obvious that leaving the tie was a major oversight. I'm certain when he realized this it sent shivers throughout his body.

Finally, if the Kaye examination of the tie had discovered pieces of a burrito and a drop or two of Budweiser I would still consider the "Goodwill" connection a stretch. That said, the actual discovery of pure titanium, aluminum, steel, rare earth elements and others particles that point to Boeing along with a lot of other evidence is just too much to overlook. If Cooper picked this tie up at Goodwill and it just happened to have these particles on it, in my diseased mind that would be an unbelievable coincidence.

Great point, EU.  It would take an incredible coincidence for him to end up getting a tie with elements like that.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #124 on: June 28, 2018, 12:04:18 PM »
why Anson for the tie clip...

there were many manufacturers of that type known and unknown going back to the 30's

 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #125 on: June 28, 2018, 01:41:46 PM »
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why Anson for the tie clip...

there were many manufacturers of that type known and unknown going back to the 30's

Anson was a major manufacturer of such items based out of Providence, Rhode Island. I believe the items were sold under the brand name "Stacy."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #126 on: June 28, 2018, 03:59:31 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

While a partial sample may be worthless in court, it would not be worthless to us citizen sleuths. If anyone could get their hands on the DNA records (or get their hands on the tie itself and conduct a fresh round of tests), the records could be referenced against public DNA sites like the ones recently being used to take down cold case suspects.

A partial sample would only narrow things down so far, but it would be far from worthless. No guarantees of anything, but plenty of potential to make it worthwhile.

 

Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #127 on: June 28, 2018, 04:02:55 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

While a partial sample may be worthless in court, it would not be worthless to us citizen sleuths. If anyone could get their hands on the DNA records (or get their hands on the tie itself and conduct a fresh round of tests), the records could be referenced against public DNA sites like the ones recently being used to take down cold case suspects.

A partial sample would only narrow things down so far, but it would be far from worthless. No guarantees of anything, but plenty of potential to make it worthwhile.

Yes, knowing what the FBI results are would be helpful even though the results are inadmissible. Dare I say, we already know the FBI's results...they're actions speak load and clear.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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georger

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #128 on: June 28, 2018, 05:59:10 PM »
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Yet another person has been taken down thanks to a public DNA database. This time it was a suspect from a 1992 murder.

Before that it was a suspect in a 1986 rape and murder. And the one that really started it all was of course the Golden State Killer.

Three times now in just the last few months that a cold case has been blown wide open by a DNA website.

I think eventually we are going to see some sort of privacy laws put into place surrounding these public DNA websites. But until that happens, it's a green light for making arrests in cold cases.

If there truly is some Cooper DNA on that tie -- even if it's multiple different male samples and even if they are only partial samples -- it still presents an opportunity. If the FBI had not given up on the case, I wonder if they might have pursued this route. Seems like an opportunity with so much potential that is just being wasted. It could of course be a long shot. But it could also point in the right direction.

With only a partial DNA profile it's worthless in court.

The bigger question is what happened to the cigarette butts and strand of hair, each of which could provide a complete DNA profile?

The biggest question though: Why the unwillingness to discuss Sheridan Peterson's  DNA results as was done with both Weber and LD? That question is, of course, a rhetorical one.

While a partial sample may be worthless in court, it would not be worthless to us citizen sleuths. If anyone could get their hands on the DNA records (or get their hands on the tie itself and conduct a fresh round of tests), the records could be referenced against public DNA sites like the ones recently being used to take down cold case suspects.

A partial sample would only narrow things down so far, but it would be far from worthless. No guarantees of anything, but plenty of potential to make it worthwhile.

Anyone want to speculate what loci are positive in each partial? Start with the female donor if one donor is in fact female. You can base this on anything you think is a fact in the case.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 06:01:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #129 on: June 29, 2018, 03:36:17 AM »
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #130 on: June 29, 2018, 10:36:21 AM »
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..
 

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #131 on: June 29, 2018, 11:53:54 AM »
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

Yes, Sheridan worked multiple jobs at the same time for a period. I believe he taught in Kirkland for one year, Sept. '64-May'65.

He was not arrested in Mississippi in 1964. He was sent to Mississippi by the American Federation of Teachers in the summer of 1965 to help establish a freedom school. There were some issues with authorities there, but that had more to do with the authorities detaining people because it was Mississippi in 1965--need I say more.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #132 on: June 29, 2018, 11:59:59 AM »
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline EU

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #133 on: June 29, 2018, 12:11:37 PM »
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

To clarify, Sheridan worked multiple jobs--teaching and writing--at the same time. The "1965" date for leaving Boeing should state "1964."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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FLYJACK

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Re: DB Cooper: The Definitive Investigation
« Reply #134 on: June 29, 2018, 01:07:19 PM »
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He was a technical editor in Org 2-5000. Started Boeing in May 1962. Left 1965.


Whoa. He was teaching English in a Kirkland HS during 1963-65 or so. Plus he was allegedly getting arrested in Mississippi in 1964, too. These timelines have got to be sorted out.

He was also freelancing at the Eastside Journal circa 1964.

and the tie was manufactured in 1966.. how could SP get "particles" on it at Boeing if he had left..

The tie was not manufactured in 1966.

The tie was manufactured by Remington Apparel Co. in North Carolina in either 1963 or 1964.

This was ascertained by investigating two things. First, the JC Penny logo on the tie. Second, the patent associated with the snap-on contraption incorporated into the tie.

The logo was used from 1963 to 1971. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured before 1963.

The patent was granted 1961 and updated in 1964. Conclusion, tie was not manufactured after 1964.

Where did you get that info.. did it come from me?

I also did the research on it a while ago but lost all the details when my HD crashed.. so I was going by memory.

The logo was used 1964+ and the 1965 patent was granted very late 1965.

That means the tie was likely sold 1965  +/- 6 months..


Back when I was trying to pin it down to a tighter time frame the problem is Patent Application date vs Publication vs Grant..

A manufacturer can use Pat Pending until the grant but they don't have to.. So, that tie could have been made up to NOV/DEC 1965. Sold in 1966.

But, the takeaway is the tie was at least 6 years old at the time of the hijacking, the FBI thought it was 1-2 years old based on a comment from a Penny's manager. If they got that wrong, what else?

.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 01:50:30 PM by FLYJACK »