Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
4 (10.3%)
25% Cooper lived
2 (5.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
1 (2.6%)
50% Cooper lived
9 (23.1%)
75% Cooper lived
8 (20.5%)
100 Cooper lived
15 (38.5%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 264771 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4620 on: February 08, 2019, 05:03:42 PM »
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Are we looking at the long lost mythical HOLY Ingram stake? It is definitely a large stick somebody has driven vertically in the sand ... with what looks like a second formal 'painted marker stick' right next to it perhaps saying: DO NOT DISTURB - ! ?

If this is the "Ingram stake" agents drove with the Ingrams on site ... this identifies the place on the sandbar agents are digging.   Somebody has placed a formal marker next to that large stick ??

Thanks for the photo Vicki!

Another photo from: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Looks like they were digging deeper than 12 - 18". Or is this another Palmer photo? There sure are a lot of deep holes and sifting going on.

Palmer is the furthest guy to the right in the photo. Also, consider that sand was deposited next to the holes being dug so it appears deeper than it actually is in some spots. Nonetheless, my point is that none of these holes are very deep. In fact, they appear to be primarily within 12" with some spots that may be up to 18". Also, as noted in the previous photo you provided, the big digging was in the immediate vicinity of the money find--noted by the wooden limb staked into the sand. This is also consistent with what I have been told by Richard Fazio multiple times.

In closing, no wide and deep shard field.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4621 on: February 08, 2019, 11:55:57 PM »
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Are we looking at the long lost mythical HOLY Ingram stake? It is definitely a large stick somebody has driven vertically in the sand ... with what looks like a second formal 'painted marker stick' right next to it perhaps saying: DO NOT DISTURB - ! ?

If this is the "Ingram stake" agents drove with the Ingrams on site ... this identifies the place on the sandbar agents are digging.   Somebody has placed a formal marker next to that large stick ??

Thanks for the photo Vicki!

Another photo from: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Looks like they were digging deeper than 12 - 18". Or is this another Palmer photo? There sure are a lot of deep holes and sifting going on.

Palmer is the furthest guy to the right in the photo. Also, consider that sand was deposited next to the holes being dug so it appears deeper than it actually is in some spots. Nonetheless, my point is that none of these holes are very deep. In fact, they appear to be primarily within 12" with some spots that may be up to 18". Also, as noted in the previous photo you provided, the big digging was in the immediate vicinity of the money find--noted by the wooden limb staked into the sand. This is also consistent with what I have been told by Richard Fazio multiple times.

In closing, no wide and deep shard field.

Well, that's an easy position to defend since there is no data on it! Just call H et al liars - that works too. Ignore all other data points too!

I can see it was a total waste of time to get the FBI and Palmer out there ... the Fazios were on hand and knew everything already! Maybe the Fazios were part of the hyjacking?
 :rofl:

« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 01:39:58 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4622 on: February 09, 2019, 12:31:05 AM »
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Are we looking at the long lost mythical HOLY Ingram stake? It is definitely a large stick somebody has driven vertically in the sand ... with what looks like a second formal 'painted marker stick' right next to it perhaps saying: DO NOT DISTURB - ! ?

If this is the "Ingram stake" agents drove with the Ingrams on site ... this identifies the place on the sandbar agents are digging.   Somebody has placed a formal marker next to that large stick ??

Thanks for the photo Vicki!

Another photo from: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Looks like they were digging deeper than 12 - 18". Or is this another Palmer photo? There sure are a lot of deep holes and sifting going on.

Palmer is the furthest guy to the right in the photo. Also, consider that sand was deposited next to the holes being dug so it appears deeper than it actually is in some spots. Nonetheless, my point is that none of these holes are very deep. In fact, they appear to be primarily within 12" with some spots that may be up to 18". Also, as noted in the previous photo you provided, the big digging was in the immediate vicinity of the money find--noted by the wooden limb staked into the sand. This is also consistent with what I have been told by Richard Fazio multiple times.

In closing, no wide and deep shard field.

Well, that's an easy position to defend since there is no data on it! Just call H et al liars - that works too. Ignore all other data points too!

Go ahead and claim you found the Ingram stake too! It was put there by Arby's. (we waited and when you didnt call back we went straight to H and got the answer. )

I can see it was a total waste of time to get the FBI and Palmer out there ... the Fazios were on hand and knew everything already! Did the Fazios know my grandma Emma? Did they read her column?

 :rofl:

freebe.

Oh Georger, you can flail and scream all you like. Nonetheless, the truth is the truth. Ain't nothin' gonna ever change that.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4623 on: February 09, 2019, 01:43:51 AM »
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Are we looking at the long lost mythical HOLY Ingram stake? It is definitely a large stick somebody has driven vertically in the sand ... with what looks like a second formal 'painted marker stick' right next to it perhaps saying: DO NOT DISTURB - ! ?

If this is the "Ingram stake" agents drove with the Ingrams on site ... this identifies the place on the sandbar agents are digging.   Somebody has placed a formal marker next to that large stick ??

Thanks for the photo Vicki!

Another photo from: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Looks like they were digging deeper than 12 - 18". Or is this another Palmer photo? There sure are a lot of deep holes and sifting going on.

Palmer is the furthest guy to the right in the photo. Also, consider that sand was deposited next to the holes being dug so it appears deeper than it actually is in some spots. Nonetheless, my point is that none of these holes are very deep. In fact, they appear to be primarily within 12" with some spots that may be up to 18". Also, as noted in the previous photo you provided, the big digging was in the immediate vicinity of the money find--noted by the wooden limb staked into the sand. This is also consistent with what I have been told by Richard Fazio multiple times.

In closing, no wide and deep shard field.

Well, that's an easy position to defend since there is no data on it! Just call H et al liars - that works too. Ignore all other data points too!

Go ahead and claim you found the Ingram stake too! It was put there by Arby's. (we waited and when you didnt call back we went straight to H and got the answer. )

I can see it was a total waste of time to get the FBI and Palmer out there ... the Fazios were on hand and knew everything already! Did the Fazios know my grandma Emma? Did they read her column?

 :rofl:

freebe.

Oh Georger, you can flail and scream all you like. Nonetheless, the truth is the truth. Ain't nothin' gonna ever change that.

Whatever -   :chr2:     

PST***   I will give you one piece of advice "bud". Dont tell the Fazios you have called H a liar - you will be history there in an instant. Lots of people read this thread. My guess is the Fazios will know tomorrow. The Fazios are already sick of everything they've had to go through because of the Cooper case and I can assure you 1000% they aren't going to go through any more, especially on you're account!  Good luck.. newcomer.   :bravo: 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 02:08:27 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4624 on: February 09, 2019, 04:13:41 PM »
The Ulis money farce ... so far.    :nono:

So far, I'm not sure what Ulis is after. So far, Ulis has not tied his money story to his suspect, Sheridan Peterson. So far, Ulis's purpose seems to be an attempt to (a) move the prior Kaye money find site, (b) claim the people excavating Tina Bar were all sloppy incompetent operators who exaggerated their stories and/or were liars, (c) only one or two money fragments were found all found close to the Ingram site on the surface (not in holes being dug), and (d) the Tina Bar money had nothing to do the dredging spoils pumped on Tina Bar in 1974. So, let's get straight to this!

The reason the dredging is important (and most people select it as the most likely source of the Tina Bar money): is because the dredging is the ONLY known historical fact that occurred at Tina Bar, just four years prior to Cooper money being found on Tina Bar. Flight 305 crossed the Columbia. And a slight adjustment of the timeline puts Cooper jumping in the Columbia drainage basin if not very close to the Columbia itself. Those are solid reasons for any sane person choosing the Dredging as the most likely known source for the Cooper money at Tina Bar.  [I hope readers are enjoying this so far.  :D]

So far, Ulis has not stated any other theory for how Cooper money wound up on Tina Bar.

Ulis says (a) no money pieces were found anywhere at Tina Bar except at the Ingram find site or very nearby. (b) no money frags were found in holes. No holes were really dug or if holes were being dug any money frags found in those holes were swept in by people's sloppy walking habits milling around in chaos. (c) Anyone claiming money frags were found in holes dug are simply mistaken, exaggerating, or liars. (d) Only one or two money fragments were found at Tina Bar, all in or near the Ingram site. (e) All money frags found of which there were only two (or three) were actually on the surface and nowhere else. The issue of strata plays no role in this matter; has no role in the money story analysis at Tina Bar. Palmer wasted his time digging trenches. Agents wasted tax payers money digging up Tina Bar.   

Does this about sum it up?  ;)  Oh! And one thing more. Ulis and the Fazios walked the beach in 2018 and the Fazio's confirm the story above. The Fazios have all of the facts in the Tina Bar money find story and conveyed all of those facts to Ulis in 2018 - no other witnesses exist or are truthful or matter! Quoting Mr Ulis in this matter: "Oh Georger, you can flail and scream all you like." No other facts except those outlined above matter or exist.  :nono:

The Eric Ulis money find analysis is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

   
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 04:31:10 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4625 on: February 10, 2019, 10:38:05 AM »
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The Ulis money farce ... so far.    :nono:

So far, I'm not sure what Ulis is after. So far, Ulis has not tied his money story to his suspect, Sheridan Peterson. So far, Ulis's purpose seems to be an attempt to (a) move the prior Kaye money find site, (b) claim the people excavating Tina Bar were all sloppy incompetent operators who exaggerated their stories and/or were liars, (c) only one or two money fragments were found all found close to the Ingram site on the surface (not in holes being dug), and (d) the Tina Bar money had nothing to do the dredging spoils pumped on Tina Bar in 1974. So, let's get straight to this!

The reason the dredging is important (and most people select it as the most likely source of the Tina Bar money): is because the dredging is the ONLY known historical fact that occurred at Tina Bar, just four years prior to Cooper money being found on Tina Bar. Flight 305 crossed the Columbia. And a slight adjustment of the timeline puts Cooper jumping in the Columbia drainage basin if not very close to the Columbia itself. Those are solid reasons for any sane person choosing the Dredging as the most likely known source for the Cooper money at Tina Bar.  [I hope readers are enjoying this so far.  :D]

So far, Ulis has not stated any other theory for how Cooper money wound up on Tina Bar.

Ulis says (a) no money pieces were found anywhere at Tina Bar except at the Ingram find site or very nearby. (b) no money frags were found in holes. No holes were really dug or if holes were being dug any money frags found in those holes were swept in by people's sloppy walking habits milling around in chaos. (c) Anyone claiming money frags were found in holes dug are simply mistaken, exaggerating, or liars. (d) Only one or two money fragments were found at Tina Bar, all in or near the Ingram site. (e) All money frags found of which there were only two (or three) were actually on the surface and nowhere else. The issue of strata plays no role in this matter; has no role in the money story analysis at Tina Bar. Palmer wasted his time digging trenches. Agents wasted tax payers money digging up Tina Bar.   

Does this about sum it up?  ;)  Oh! And one thing more. Ulis and the Fazios walked the beach in 2018 and the Fazio's confirm the story above. The Fazios have all of the facts in the Tina Bar money find story and conveyed all of those facts to Ulis in 2018 - no other witnesses exist or are truthful or matter! Quoting Mr Ulis in this matter: "Oh Georger, you can flail and scream all you like." No other facts except those outlined above matter or exist.  :nono:

The Eric Ulis money find analysis is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

   

You know you’ve won an argument—any argument—when the person you’re debating begins to put words in your mouth, make false claims, and utilizes “fake facts.” Indeed, this is precisely what Georger has done above.

The truth is virtually everything I've said regarding DB Cooper can be found easily on my site You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login .

Now in honor of today being the 39th Anniversary of the Tena Bar money find I will summarize some of my findings regarding the money find and repeat (for Georger) my money find theory.

1) Identifying the actual money find spot was very important and had not been accomplished until I researched the subject and published my findings in January. My research can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login . Say what you will, I am 100% right about the money find spot. The spot I've identified is about 120 feet north of Tom Kaye's yellow pin spot.

Why is this important? Well, in part, because it shows that the money was found about 300 feet north of the edge of the 1974 dredge spoil spread. In my mind, this creates an insurmountable problem for those who believe that the three independent packets discovered on Tena Bar stacked upon themselves just below the surface, with very brittle rubber bands still intact, came from the 1974 dredge.

2) I have never stated that no pieces of currency were found in a hole. Why? Because that would be wrong as evidenced by the "plaid-shirt FBI agent" who was actually filmed by KATU discovering a small piece of currency in a hole. Enough said about this ridiculous claim.

3) I have also put forth a mighty compelling theory how the money ended up on Tena Bar here at this very forum. Again, it is ridiculous to claim that I haven't offered a theory regarding the money find. A summarized version of my theory is as follows:

     a] Cooper originally intended to jump near Seattle.

     b] Cooper’s jump was delayed because the money bag needed to be secured and because the airstairs had to be deployed after taking-off.

     c] In order to secure the bank bag Cooper had to remove several packets of $20s because the bag was too full to secure.

     d] These additional packets of $20s were secured in the dummy reserve. In fact, Tina Mucklow witnessed Cooper placing a portion of the money into one of the reserves. And, given that the dummy reserve was the only reserve Cooper jumped with, I think we can assume that it was this reserve that she witnessed him placing the packets in to.

     e] R99 was correct with his flight path analysis putting Cooper's actual landing zone very near Tena Bar.

     f] Upon landing, Cooper walked to Tena Bar and buried the bank bag and the separate packets of $20s that he had placed into the dummy reserve. He did this because he needed to figure out how to get out of the area and regroup. Remember, he originally planned to jump near Seattle—he was about 150 miles off his planned landing zone.

     g] Cooper later travelled back to Tena Bar and under cover of darkness retrieved the bank bag and individual packets he had buried. However, being at night, he mistakenly left three of the individual packets behind in the hole. These were the three packets discovered by Brian Ingram after erosion unearthed the formerly buried packets.

Thank you very much. Elvis has left the building.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4626 on: February 10, 2019, 01:49:06 PM »
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The Ulis money farce ... so far.    :nono:

So far, I'm not sure what Ulis is after. So far, Ulis has not tied his money story to his suspect, Sheridan Peterson. So far, Ulis's purpose seems to be an attempt to (a) move the prior Kaye money find site, (b) claim the people excavating Tina Bar were all sloppy incompetent operators who exaggerated their stories and/or were liars, (c) only one or two money fragments were found all found close to the Ingram site on the surface (not in holes being dug), and (d) the Tina Bar money had nothing to do the dredging spoils pumped on Tina Bar in 1974. So, let's get straight to this!

The reason the dredging is important (and most people select it as the most likely source of the Tina Bar money): is because the dredging is the ONLY known historical fact that occurred at Tina Bar, just four years prior to Cooper money being found on Tina Bar. Flight 305 crossed the Columbia. And a slight adjustment of the timeline puts Cooper jumping in the Columbia drainage basin if not very close to the Columbia itself. Those are solid reasons for any sane person choosing the Dredging as the most likely known source for the Cooper money at Tina Bar.  [I hope readers are enjoying this so far.  :D]

So far, Ulis has not stated any other theory for how Cooper money wound up on Tina Bar.

Ulis says (a) no money pieces were found anywhere at Tina Bar except at the Ingram find site or very nearby. (b) no money frags were found in holes. No holes were really dug or if holes were being dug any money frags found in those holes were swept in by people's sloppy walking habits milling around in chaos. (c) Anyone claiming money frags were found in holes dug are simply mistaken, exaggerating, or liars. (d) Only one or two money fragments were found at Tina Bar, all in or near the Ingram site. (e) All money frags found of which there were only two (or three) were actually on the surface and nowhere else. The issue of strata plays no role in this matter; has no role in the money story analysis at Tina Bar. Palmer wasted his time digging trenches. Agents wasted tax payers money digging up Tina Bar.   

Does this about sum it up?  ;)  Oh! And one thing more. Ulis and the Fazios walked the beach in 2018 and the Fazio's confirm the story above. The Fazios have all of the facts in the Tina Bar money find story and conveyed all of those facts to Ulis in 2018 - no other witnesses exist or are truthful or matter! Quoting Mr Ulis in this matter: "Oh Georger, you can flail and scream all you like." No other facts except those outlined above matter or exist.  :nono:

The Eric Ulis money find analysis is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

   

You know you’ve won an argument—any argument—when the person you’re debating begins to put words in your mouth, make false claims, and utilizes “fake facts.” Indeed, this is precisely what Georger has done above.

The truth is virtually everything I've said regarding DB Cooper can be found easily on my site You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login .

Now in honor of today being the 39th Anniversary of the Tena Bar money find I will summarize some of my findings regarding the money find and repeat (for Georger) my money find theory.

1) Identifying the actual money find spot was very important and had not been accomplished until I researched the subject and published my findings in January. My research can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login . Say what you will, I am 100% right about the money find spot. The spot I've identified is about 120 feet north of Tom Kaye's yellow pin spot.

Why is this important? Well, in part, because it shows that the money was found about 300 feet north of the edge of the 1974 dredge spoil spread. In my mind, this creates an insurmountable problem for those who believe that the three independent packets discovered on Tena Bar stacked upon themselves just below the surface, with very brittle rubber bands still intact, came from the 1974 dredge.

2) I have never stated that no pieces of currency were found in a hole. Why? Because that would be wrong as evidenced by the "plaid-shirt FBI agent" who was actually filmed by KATU discovering a small piece of currency in a hole. Enough said about this ridiculous claim.

3) I have also put forth a mighty compelling theory how the money ended up on Tena Bar here at this very forum. Again, it is ridiculous to claim that I haven't offered a theory regarding the money find. A summarized version of my theory is as follows:

     a] Cooper originally intended to jump near Seattle.

     b] Cooper’s jump was delayed because the money bag needed to be secured and because the airstairs had to be deployed after taking-off.

     c] In order to secure the bank bag Cooper had to remove several packets of $20s because the bag was too full to secure.

     d] These additional packets of $20s were secured in the dummy reserve. In fact, Tina Mucklow witnessed Cooper placing a portion of the money into one of the reserves. And, given that the dummy reserve was the only reserve Cooper jumped with, I think we can assume that it was this reserve that she witnessed him placing the packets in to.

     e] R99 was correct with his flight path analysis putting Cooper's actual landing zone very near Tena Bar.

     f] Upon landing, Cooper walked to Tena Bar and buried the bank bag and the separate packets of $20s that he had placed into the dummy reserve. He did this because he needed to figure out how to get out of the area and regroup. Remember, he originally planned to jump near Seattle—he was about 150 miles off his planned landing zone.

     g] Cooper later travelled back to Tena Bar and under cover of darkness retrieved the bank bag and individual packets he had buried. However, being at night, he mistakenly left three of the individual packets behind in the hole. These were the three packets discovered by Brian Ingram after erosion unearthed the formerly buried packets.

Thank you very much. Elvis has left the building.

Quick response: prove that you are Elvis! Elvis died in 1977. You are not Elvis.

How do you account for any money being found in a stratum deeper than the Ingram find, which you surmise is the layer/stratum in which Cooper buried the money? Normally, strata are synonymous with time/age. 

R99 is on standby for any discussion about flight path. Dont know if he will (or even can) come back here and post, but one way or another he can and probably will reply. Shutter do you know what R99's status is? Shutter please start posting again.   
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 01:50:22 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4627 on: February 10, 2019, 03:43:18 PM »
Let me start off by saying that Eric is in the same location I've been saying for years. Tom is off and that's all there is to it.


Where Eric skews surrounds the dig itself. it just doesn't fit what anyone would do while digging in an area where something was found. why in the world would they only go a foot or so deep? in sand no less.

The KATU video is not a minute by minute documentation of what occurred on T-Bar. you can clearly see levels above the knee's on some shots. from the floor to my knee is 20"

You have dozens of agents out there digging just below the surface, why? that doesn't make any sense what so ever while looking for something found below the surface. you want to go as far as you can until nothing else is found. it's common sense.

At the very end of the video the reporter is at the epic center of the find. the metal stake which looks like a johnny bar use for prying is sticking up about a foot. the reporter is below the surface. you can take some of the height off due to sand piling up from the dig but it clearly shows up to 3 feet deep.

The Fazio's claimed they pushed the sand 50 years north and south. that makes no sense. it doesn't even come out of the spoil circle itself. then you have Palmer identifying the dredge layer that shouldn't be there if the Fazio's were correct. Tom Kaye believes Palmer identified the clay layer of T-Bar itself which runs the whole length of the beach.

The beach has been eroding for years, so how is it able to replenish itself and erode at the same time. one would tend to believe the dredge material would slowly wash out over time. the top level is more consistent for the dredge layer than any of the other layers Palmer states. a sample was taken not far from the money location in the 90's that matches that layer.

The main problem with the dredge theory is the lack of evidence. it appears the money and pieces were localized to one area. the pump would of shredded most of the money and depending on how it was spread could give answers to why pieces were found at different levels. a majority of the money could of went right back into the river. the process is a very messy one.

The flight path? that is a very controversial part of evidence. moving the flight path is going against a lot of proof. the military was tracking it. several radar's via ATC. were tracking it along with planes. the path was flown via simulator with only a few issues. approaching the columbia is a very sharp roll and zig zagging. it also has a timing issue in the drop zone. moving it west makes a whole lot of sense but did it really occur? it's like two witnesses stating a guy went in the front door of a building and then 30 years later someone saying it makes more sense that they used the back entrance.

I'm not certain of anything but I doubt the money got on the beach via human.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4628 on: February 10, 2019, 03:59:21 PM »
Tina saw DBC put money in a reserve chute? This is the first I'm hearing it. Or at least I'm paying attention now. Where does this information come from?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 03:59:51 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4629 on: February 10, 2019, 11:51:31 PM »
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Tina saw DBC put money in a reserve chute? This is the first I'm hearing it. Or at least I'm paying attention now. Where does this information come from?

its in the records - especially the crew interviews. She saw him trying a number of packing methods. He settled on cord tied around the neck of the orig money bag tied around his waste; seen by Mucklow as she entered the cockpit. He even explained he was doing all of this because they had left out the knapsack. Its in the interviews we got years ago.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:19:08 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4630 on: February 11, 2019, 04:43:32 AM »
Thank you.

It begs the question: if Cooper used the "dummy chute" to store excess moolah, why is it inferred by the FBI that his use of the dummy chute indicates that Cooper was a whuffo, didn't know what he was doing, and hence, was most likely unsuccessful?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4631 on: February 11, 2019, 08:54:23 AM »
The reserve is not really a container. it has flaps that hold it together. the chute would pop out making it very difficult to stuff anything else into the container. then you would have a problem putting the container back together. if he secured the bag good enough you wouldn't need any other means to carry the money. might as well start stuffing your pockets...IMO Cooper should have known what the container looked like in the open position.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4632 on: February 11, 2019, 12:47:38 PM »
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The reserve is not really a container. it has flaps that hold it together. the chute would pop out making it very difficult to stuff anything else into the container. then you would have a problem putting the container back together. if he secured the bag good enough you wouldn't need any other means to carry the money. might as well start stuffing your pockets...IMO Cooper should have known what the container looked like in the open position.

Here's what we know:

1) The bank bag could not be cinched at the top without taking some of the packets of $20s from the bag. For those so inclined I have written about this and describe the dimensions of the ransom, volume of the bank bag, etc., and this info can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login .

2) Tina witnessed Cooper putting cash into one of the reserves.

3) The dummy reserve is missing.

4) The dummy reserve could not attach to the emergency rig because it did not have D rings and is not intended to be used with a reserve.

It seems obvious to me that the dummy reserve was used to secure some packets of $20s.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4633 on: February 11, 2019, 04:35:37 PM »
I cannot find any testimony where Cooper explicitly asks for *the money to be delivered in a knapsack. He could have demanded that specifically and avoided the whole problem. Knapsack is not on his primary demand list? Knapsack is not even mentioned in the Pilot Notes. So it was bypassed... Cooper just failed to make the knapsack request explicit and important!

Then as things are being delivered to Cooper it suddenly becomes important. Almost an after-thought!

Here are some of the relevant passages in this matter:

Relevant passages:

"""   As she closed the curtains she observed him trying to Tie the money bag (it was not a backpack as he had requested but rather a canvas bag) Around his waste or possibly to the harness. At 7:42 when the plane was about 14 nautical miles out the crew noticed the aft stair light go on. (summary doc FBI)


7:54 pm    (t1   Flight comm. transcript)
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him
 and thinks he will attempt a jump.               [Fact: there is no knapsack!]
 

Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”.   Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board.  (Hancock FBI interview)

It was also during this time that he complained to Mucklow that he had requested the money be delivered in a knapsack but instead it was delivered in a cloth type bank bag, which displeased him. It was at this time that Mucklow recalls he stated he would be forced to use one of the parachutes to rewrap the money since he had not been furnished the knapsack.        Mucklow states that at takeoff the hijacker was using several seats and was occupied with opening one of the parachutes and attempting to pack the money in the parachute container and attach it to his body using the parachute cords. Mucklow recalls that the parachute was a bright pink-orange color. Mucklow’s description is somewhat vague but she says he removed a small jack-knife from his pocket and he cut some portion of the outside container or the parachute in order to secure the money in ‘this’ rather than in the white cloth type bank bag which had been furnished him. She says that she did not see him tamper with the two large parachute containers other than to generally inspect them when she brought them aboard.      The subject told her it would not be necessary for her to use a safety rope (when opening the door) but he would cut one of the parachute lines to insure her safety when she opened the door. At this same time he was still working with the parachute (container and lines) to in some way secure the money to his body. (Mucklow 11-20 interview)

 
When Mucklow returned to the plane with the last back pack chute, she saw that the hijacker had one of the small chutes open and was cutting nylon cords out with his pocket knife. He took the nylon cord and wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it a few times from top to bottom, and with the same piece (of cord)  he made a loop like a handle at the top. This nylon cord was pinkish in color. He appeared irritated that they hadn’t given him a knapsack for the money as requested, and after trying to put the money in an unfolded parachute, he decided to leave it in the canvas bag (and fabricate a holding line for that, instead).       Approximately four minutes after take off he stood up and told her to go the cockpit and close the first class curtain, and for no one to come back behind the curtain. The lights were out in the rear compartment and she went forward, faced the curtain, and turned around and looked  and the last time she saw him he had a nylon cord tied around his waste and he was standing in the isle. Before she secured the curtain she called back and pleaded with him to take the bomb with him or disarm it before he left.   (Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA) """

   
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 04:44:16 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #4634 on: February 11, 2019, 05:47:55 PM »
EU and 300 feet north of north dredge pile:

You seem impressed/convinced that the mere distance between your new location of the Ingram find and the north-most dredging pile (as seen in USGS photo 1979) is some kind of guarantee that the Ingram find had nothing to do with dredging or movement of money post dredging. Tom made a similar appeal using 200 feet as the separation. The Ingram find is NORTH - in the DIRECTION OF CURRENT FLOW - from all of the 1974 dredging spoils. 

A couple of things are apparent. We have no aerial photos of the movement of dredging spoils during the application of those spoils to Tina Bar in 1974. All we have is one after-the-fact photo which basically shows a stable situation? That in itself is quite deceiving as a measure of what happened over time at Tina Bar. We have been told, for example that at least 50% of all dredging spoils slide right back into the river and move forward (north) at the average rate of 3ft/second (Bradley FBI doc 1979). Dredging spoils are viscous and always shift (north with direction of the current) at Tina Bar. How far they shift is an open question.

WE know that prior to 1980 nobody had seen any money on Tina Bar, so either it was buried or some process buried it from view at the same time the money was deposited on the bar. Two obvious choices are current/flood or dredging spoils being pumped or spread.

But 10 feet, 100 feet, 200 or 300, or even 1000 feet from the northern dredging spoil location is not some guarantee that the money did not originally arrive with the application of wet-viscous dredging spoils! I mean for one thing just consider the forces involved here! The beach at Tina Bar is exposed to "prodigious" forces that can deposit and remove huge trees within seconds, hours, days, or months - take your pick! It all depends on what forces are active at the time. A few stats are enlightening!

Hydrologist Bradley told us the average rate of flow is 3ft/s. The average discharge flowing by Tina Bar is something on the order of 265,000 cubic feet per second (7,500 m3/s) -  the Columbia is the largest river by discharge flowing into the Pacific from North America and is the fourth-largest by volume in the US. At 265,000 cubic feet per second (7,500 m3/s),  that is 16,541,300 lbs/sec p cubic foot or 8,270.65 tons per cubic foot per sec! Where V = moving at 3ft/s as per hydrologist Bradely 1980.  In other words, the forces potentially active at Tina Bar are great, to put it mildly ... and viscous dredging materials and their contents can move a mere 300 feet (to the Ingram site) very easily.

Tosaw and others considered all of this clear back in the 1980s after the Ingram find. They wondered if there would be anything left of Cooper or artifacts of his hijacking even if Cooper landed right off Caterpillar Island and drilled into the mud there. Divers and boat owners who have photographed (bathology) the bottom of the river int his region have noted just how smooth and uncluttered the bottom is - things move on leaving a smooth bottom pretty quickly due to the hydrological forces active int his river.  Photos of this were posted at Dropzone years ago.

So, dont get excited about a mere 300 foot separation between one Ingram find location and the northern dredging spoil site.  When it comes to this river and the forces at work (potentially) all things are quite relative. Tosaw decided to go ahead and rake the bottom hoping something of Cooper was there - with people laughing all the way!   

In addition to this, we believe the dredging spoils collected from mile markers x...x1 had a rather unique chemical signature. Some Cooper bills tested in a lab show signs of that signature. So wherever the Ingram bills were found they seem to share a distinct chemical signature with the dredging spoils collected from mile markers x...x1. The contamination occurred somehow... either from similar origin location or through contamination by water flow between the dredge spoil site and the sands where the bills were found. This is just one more reason why your 300 foot separation could be meaningless.

I dont know why people are so hung up on this idea of *separation* because in the context of this sandbar and active forces in play, separation is almost a myth, in not factually a myth!   
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 06:10:43 PM by georger »
 
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