Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.5%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.3%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (36.5%)

Total Members Voted: 58

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 1422600 times)

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1335 on: December 28, 2016, 06:01:27 PM »
I found an email for Jones and I'm willing to contact him after the holidays, however, odds are if he is willing to help, he'd want to correspond with Kaye.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1336 on: January 22, 2017, 06:44:00 PM »
I found an issue on the tie's secondary label, it always seems to be obscured..

The one below the TOWNCRAFT label with the line,, "IT'S A SNAP TO SNAP ON!"

Are there any good images of that label?? I can only find partials

looks similar to this TOWNCRAFT clip-on, but black label with blue print
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1337 on: January 22, 2017, 11:52:47 PM »
pics you were looking for...

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FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1338 on: January 23, 2017, 12:17:19 AM »
Georger,, thanks that helps.. if the TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ with evidence I found that puts the tie between 1964-1965..

I found fragmented images of the secondary label online and on tv, the label with the patent number on it. I noticed that the Cooper patent number didn't match any of the 30 tie samples I found online..

I also found that the Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent. I finally found a full sample identical to the fragments. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. Also, these ties are mass produced as "Snapper" by France Neckwear CO. NY, they produced "Snapper" ties all over the world and just added store branding labels, including Sears..

So, the Cooper TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ and the unique patent number is 1959-1965.. 

This is the patent number on the Cooper tie, 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.

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The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684

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Shutter, I found that Ebay tie and almost 30 more and only one eventually matched the patent label on the Cooper tie. The problem is there weren't any decent images of the secondary Cooper tie label. 

If you check the patent label I posted in the above post it doesn't match the Cooper one..

« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:30:12 AM by FLYJACK »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1339 on: January 23, 2017, 12:48:32 AM »
The far left is a match I found for the Cooper tie secondary label, the middle is the Cooper tie and the right is the Cooper tie cellphone pic from the TV.. (much clearer on screen and image quality reduced to post) Patent number is unique 2972750
 
Notice the Cooper label is wonky and the last patent digit "0" and the right side is cut off.. ends in 5 in the middle pic and the "IT" is offset to the right.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 12:54:18 AM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1340 on: January 23, 2017, 05:04:34 AM »
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Georger,, thanks that helps.. if the TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ with evidence I found that puts the tie between 1964-1965..

I found fragmented images of the secondary label online and on tv, the label with the patent number on it. I noticed that the Cooper patent number didn't match any of the 30 tie samples I found online..

I also found that the Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent. I finally found a full sample identical to the fragments. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. Also, these ties are mass produced as "Snapper" by France Neckwear CO. NY, they produced "Snapper" ties all over the world and just added store branding labels, including Sears..

So, the Cooper TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ and the unique patent number is 1959-1965.. 

This is the patent number on the Cooper tie, 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Shutter, I found that Ebay tie and almost 30 more and only one eventually matched the patent label on the Cooper tie. The problem is there weren't any decent images of the secondary Cooper tie label. 

If you check the patent label I posted in the above post it doesn't match the Cooper one..

Again Farfs post is at : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

and his research photo below ...

glad it helped.
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1341 on: January 23, 2017, 10:33:39 AM »
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Georger,, thanks that helps.. if the TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ with evidence I found that puts the tie between 1964-1965..

I found fragmented images of the secondary label online and on tv, the label with the patent number on it. I noticed that the Cooper patent number didn't match any of the 30 tie samples I found online..

I also found that the Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent. I finally found a full sample identical to the fragments. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. Also, these ties are mass produced as "Snapper" by France Neckwear CO. NY, they produced "Snapper" ties all over the world and just added store branding labels, including Sears..

So, the Cooper TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ and the unique patent number is 1959-1965.. 

This is the patent number on the Cooper tie, 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Shutter, I found that Ebay tie and almost 30 more and only one eventually matched the patent label on the Cooper tie. The problem is there weren't any decent images of the secondary Cooper tie label. 

If you check the patent label I posted in the above post it doesn't match the Cooper one..

Again Farfs post is at : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

and his research photo below ...

glad it helped.

I took these photos at the Washington State History Museum during their D.B. Cooper exhibit.  We weren't allowed to take photos and I took a few quick shots. This is why they are blurry. They told us that this was not the original tie (it is blue), however was very close.

I am not sure if you can get anything out of them, but I thought I would put this out there.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 
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FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1342 on: January 23, 2017, 11:07:58 AM »
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Georger,, thanks that helps.. if the TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ with evidence I found that puts the tie between 1964-1965..

I found fragmented images of the secondary label online and on tv, the label with the patent number on it. I noticed that the Cooper patent number didn't match any of the 30 tie samples I found online..

I also found that the Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent. I finally found a full sample identical to the fragments. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. Also, these ties are mass produced as "Snapper" by France Neckwear CO. NY, they produced "Snapper" ties all over the world and just added store branding labels, including Sears..

So, the Cooper TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ and the unique patent number is 1959-1965.. 

This is the patent number on the Cooper tie, 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Shutter, I found that Ebay tie and almost 30 more and only one eventually matched the patent label on the Cooper tie. The problem is there weren't any decent images of the secondary Cooper tie label. 

If you check the patent label I posted in the above post it doesn't match the Cooper one..

Again Farfs post is at : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

and his research photo below ...

glad it helped.

I took these photos at the Washington State History Museum during their D.B. Cooper exhibit.  We weren't allowed to take photos and I took a few quick shots. This is why they are blurry. They told us that this was not the original tie (it is blue), however was very close.

I am not sure if you can get anything out of them, but I thought I would put this out there.

I was there at that exhibition no photo of tie though,,

Look at the secondary label in the exhibit with the patent or any online image, it has two patents both are late 1965+.

All examples of the tie's with the correct TOWNCRAFT label found have the later patent label with two different patent numbers and don't match the Cooper tie patent label. The dual patent label ties were produced 1965+, while the Cooper version had a very narrow window for production.

The actual Cooper tie has one patent number which was filed in 1959.

Combined with the graphic design timeline on the TOWNCRAFT label (1964+), the conclusion is the Cooper tie was produced/sold around 1965 (+/- six months) not 1-3 years old at the time of hijacking but around 6 years old.

The only reason I caught this was that Cooper Solved TV show had an image of the Coopers tie and on my big screen freeze frame I deciphered the patent number which did not match all other TOWNCRAFT ties..

Summary, the two labels on Coopers tie were only produced together around 1965 +/- six months, making the tie around six years old at the time of the hijacking.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 11:18:46 AM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1343 on: January 23, 2017, 11:35:49 AM »
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Georger,, thanks that helps.. if the TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ with evidence I found that puts the tie between 1964-1965..

I found fragmented images of the secondary label online and on tv, the label with the patent number on it. I noticed that the Cooper patent number didn't match any of the 30 tie samples I found online..

I also found that the Patent label on the Cooper tie is trimmed or misaligned cutting off the last number in the patent. I finally found a full sample identical to the fragments. Turns out the patent was filed 1959 and issued 1961.. All the other ties with the same TOWNCRAFT label had two completely different patents filed 1965. Also, these ties are mass produced as "Snapper" by France Neckwear CO. NY, they produced "Snapper" ties all over the world and just added store branding labels, including Sears..

So, the Cooper TOWNCRAFT label is 1964+ and the unique patent number is 1959-1965.. 

This is the patent number on the Cooper tie, 2972750 but missing the last 0 as the label is either trimmed, altered or misaligned in the manufacturing process.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The later TOWNCRAFT ties have late 1965 patent#s 3220015 and 3222684

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Shutter, I found that Ebay tie and almost 30 more and only one eventually matched the patent label on the Cooper tie. The problem is there weren't any decent images of the secondary Cooper tie label. 

If you check the patent label I posted in the above post it doesn't match the Cooper one..

Again Farfs post is at : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

and his research photo below ...

glad it helped.

I took these photos at the Washington State History Museum during their D.B. Cooper exhibit.  We weren't allowed to take photos and I took a few quick shots. This is why they are blurry. They told us that this was not the original tie (it is blue), however was very close.

I am not sure if you can get anything out of them, but I thought I would put this out there.

I was there at that exhibition no photo of tie though,,

Look at the secondary label in the exhibit with the patent or any online image, it has two patents both are late 1965+.

All examples of the tie's with the correct TOWNCRAFT label found have the later patent label with two different patent numbers and don't match the Cooper tie patent label. The dual patent label ties were produced 1965+, while the Cooper version had a very narrow window for production.

The actual Cooper tie has one patent number which was filed in 1959.

Combined with the graphic design timeline on the TOWNCRAFT label (1964+), the conclusion is the Cooper tie was produced/sold around 1965 (+/- six months) not 1-3 years old at the time of hijacking but around 6 years old.

The only reason I caught this was that Cooper Solved TV show had an image of the Coopers tie and on my big screen freeze frame I deciphered the patent number which did not match all other TOWNCRAFT ties..

Summary, the two labels on Coopers tie were only produced together around 1965 +/- six months, making the tie around six years old at the time of the hijacking.

One then wonders about when the particles on the tie were deposited? Any age dates possible?

If it was at Boeing it would have to match project dates at Boeing?
 
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 11:37:08 AM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1344 on: January 23, 2017, 11:40:41 AM »
unrelated, long shot, anybody know

Were there any Penny's stores in Florida around 1965, if so any nearest to Cape Canaveral..
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1345 on: January 23, 2017, 12:13:27 PM »
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unrelated, long shot, anybody know

Were there any Penny's stores in Florida around 1965, if so any nearest to Cape Canaveral..

I think Boeing had some kind of management services organization at Cape Canaveral in 1969 and it was headed by "Tex" Johnson, a former Boeing test pilot famous for doing rolls with the 707 prototype at a public exhibition in the Seattle area.  In his biography, Johnson relates that he had dinner with the Apollo 11 astronauts a day or two before they launched for the first moon manned landing.
 

georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1346 on: January 23, 2017, 01:22:43 PM »
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unrelated, long shot, anybody know

Were there any Penny's stores in Florida around 1965, if so any nearest to Cape Canaveral..

I think Boeing had some kind of management services organization at Cape Canaveral in 1969 and it was headed by "Tex" Johnson, a former Boeing test pilot famous for doing rolls with the 707 prototype at a public exhibition in the Seattle area.  In his biography, Johnson relates that he had dinner with the Apollo 11 astronauts a day or two before they launched for the first moon manned landing.

Its just a wild leap but I wonder about any private security people who worked at Boeing and had access to all the restricted areas? Somebody who suddenly left his employment but was never checked again, and never missed? And missed being checked as a Cooper suspect?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 01:23:41 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1347 on: January 23, 2017, 02:20:21 PM »
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unrelated, long shot, anybody know

Were there any Penny's stores in Florida around 1965, if so any nearest to Cape Canaveral..

I think Boeing had some kind of management services organization at Cape Canaveral in 1969 and it was headed by "Tex" Johnson, a former Boeing test pilot famous for doing rolls with the 707 prototype at a public exhibition in the Seattle area.  In his biography, Johnson relates that he had dinner with the Apollo 11 astronauts a day or two before they launched for the first moon manned landing.

Its just a wild leap but I wonder about any private security people who worked at Boeing and had access to all the restricted areas? Somebody who suddenly left his employment but was never checked again, and never missed? And missed being checked as a Cooper suspect?

In the late 1960s and early 1970s, tens of thousands of engineers and other aerospace people were laid off at Boeing in Seattle and other manufacturers in the Los Angles area.  And many of them were probably out of the aerospace industry for good.

I remember flying into LAX one afternoon in the early 1970s and, while heading to the baggage claim, stopped at a news rack to check some great big headlines.  Those headlines were to the effect that the workers who had been laid off from one company were also losing their health benefits.  That meant they were gone for good and not just temporarily laid off.

The aerospace industry went through a very convulsive down sizing in that time frame.  Some engineering organizations were telling college students not to major in engineering.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1348 on: January 23, 2017, 03:33:39 PM »
I am trying to match a POI visit to Cape Canaveral with the PENNYS's store geographic distribution in 1965.. if the tie was purchased around 1965 the hijacker likely had access to a Penny's at that time. It isn't a big thing but it may correlate a place and time. If a suspect was in a geographic area around 1965 with no PENNY's, it would make obtaining that tie less likely.

This might clarify the Cooper tie patent label, the TOWNCRAFT label with the background behind the first T ran 1964+.. it had 2 different secondary patent labels.

The two pics on the right are the actual Cooper tie.. note that the far right of the label is cut off missing the last 0. (the lower one is blurry here in low res but clear on my big screen)

The top left label pic matches the Cooper tie. A single 1959 patent. Very rare, the only one I could find.

The bottom left pic represents all the ones you see online. The two late 1965 patents. Found over 30 of these.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #1349 on: January 23, 2017, 04:24:08 PM »
Found a HD video online and here is a better image of the actual Cooper tie single patent label.. that label was changed in 1966.. note the right side is cut off missing the 0 from patent 2972750, I think it was done in the manufacturing process,,


So, it only took 45 years to nail down a 1965 +/- six months date for the tie production/sale
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:35:33 PM by FLYJACK »