Author Topic: 2018 DB Cooper Conference  (Read 37036 times)

Offline EU

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #225 on: November 26, 2018, 01:39:11 PM »
A solid post DB Cooper Con article from the Oregonian today.

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #226 on: November 26, 2018, 11:12:17 PM »
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Thanks for this Bruce. Very good summary

I would quibble with this one thing:

You say:
"But the exact nature of the parachute DB Cooper used is shrouded in mystery. The FBI's technical expert on parachutes, Earl Cossey, says Cooper had a NB-6 or NB-8. However, Norman Hayden, whom FBI documents reveal delivered these back chutes to NWO and owned them, says he only gave civilian Pioneer rigs containing Steinthals. FBI documents and statements by case agents vary greatly on this subject and Cooper World reels, trying to resolve this dilemma."

The FBI documents do not vary greatly.
The variance that does exist is trivial. The wrong data by the National Guard who inspected the left-behind chute when it was found in Reno.
A poor id when the chutes where being delivered, and noted in a memo by an SA

But there are plenty of memos that are fully consistent.

The inconsistency only comes from Cossey, Ckret, and Hayden's poor memory of what rigs and canopies he had then, when you interviewed him recently.

Yes it is unclear who said it was a NB6 with a 28 foot canopy. It was likely Cossey.

The description of the Pioneer as "civilian luxury" was poor.

But: I don't think the FBI docs have inconsistencies like you claim. The inconsistencies arose from Ckret's interview of Cossey, Cossey interviews for newspapers, and your current Hayden interview.

Don't you agree? I don't think you have much in terms of inconsistent FBI memos, other than the small things (explainable) that I outlined?

"Small things" - ? We still don't know with any substantive degree of certainty what kind of parachute DB Cooper had on his back as he leapt into the sky. But here is my quick take on the inconsistencies, who created them, and what certain documents might tell us.

1. Hayden said he delivered two civilian Pioneers with 26-foot Steinthauls.
2. The FBI summary reports say that Hayden owned the back chutes delivered. This report makes no mention of Earl Cossey.
3. The summary report says that a military chute and a civilian chute were given to Cooper.
4. The notion of a military chute being in this mix comes from Cossey.
5. Cossey said the owned the back chutes, and that Hayden is FOS.
6. Cossey said that he delivered a military chute and a civilian chute, which corroborates the FBI's summary report.
7. Ckret publicly declared that Cossey owned the abovementioned chutes and delivered them to NWO.
8. Early 302s declare that an NB-6 was delivered to NWO.
9. In 2009, Cossey told me that this NB-6 was overstuffed with a 28-foot chute.
10. Later, Cossey told me that the NB-6 story was false, and that he delivered an NB-8.
11. Much later, Cossey told me that this NB-8 had been significantly modified and the position of the rip cord had been changed and the handle hidden under a protective flap. Because of these mods the chute required a two-step process in pulling: out-and-then-up. As a result, Cossey decaled that Cooper was a no-pull and cratered.
12. All through the many interviews with Cossey, he steadfastly held to the tale that he sent these back chutes to Boeing Field in a taxi, and then they went to Sea-Tac via private car. When I asked him why he sent them to the wrong airport, he said "F-U" and hung up the phone. He was murdered two months later.

When I ponder these stories with the new found Cooper bonhomie created by the Conference, I am not too upset with the vagaries of the parachutes. I used to get in a tizzy, but not now. Maybe Cooper jumped with a NB-8, maybe a Pioneer. Who knows? Maybe we will one day...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 11:45:05 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #227 on: November 26, 2018, 11:19:53 PM »
agreed on all that.
I was just pointing out that a lot of that is not in the FBI memos.
The FBI memos, by themselves, are relatively consistent.

It's a fair question, that if the FBI memos seem straightforward, how and why did it get so complicated?

And why did Ckret get it so wrong?

I never really believed Ckret was a good DBC researcher. And he had all the files.
This just proves it, in my mind.

Ckret let us all believe the untaken rig was some real skydiving rig, when it wasn't.

It's so funny that no one over the years went and talked to Hayden to get a picture. Only you.
Really lucky it was still there and you could get pictures.

Imagine if we were still talking about it as if it was a skydiving rig, and superior in any way.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #228 on: November 26, 2018, 11:49:23 PM »
Yes, I suppose that the FBI documents on the back chutes are consistent to themselves. They may be accurate, or not, and may not be consistent to statements others make, but to themselves they are consistent.

Namely, the 302s describe an NB-6.

Addendum: However, the summary report says Hayden was the owner. Hence, it is fair to assume that Hayden's statement that both back chutes were identical is true. Therefore, the summary report is in conflict with the 302s that discuss the back chutes. I suppose that is a technical inconsistency within the documentation.

In addition, I think it is fair to assume that Larry Carr didn't read the 302s or summary report in full, or didn't understand them. Rather, he seems to have followed the prevailing narrative that Cossey was truthful and a military chute was presented to Cooper and selected. Or Larry was duped by his superiors in the Bureau to tell a false narrative to satisfy some hidden agenda, or he lied for yet undisclosed reasons, or was too lazy to know any better.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 02:22:31 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #229 on: November 26, 2018, 11:51:52 PM »
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...And why did Ckret get it so wrong?

I never really believed Ckret was a good DBC researcher. And he had all the files.
This just proves it, in my mind.

Ckret let us all believe the untaken rig was some real skydiving rig, when it wasn't.

It's so funny that no one over the years went and talked to Hayden to get a picture. Only you.
Really lucky it was still there and you could get pictures.

Imagine if we were still talking about it as if it was a skydiving rig, and superior in any way.


Thanks.

Double thanks for sending me Hayden's contact information and address, too!
 

Offline georger

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #230 on: November 27, 2018, 12:03:38 AM »
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...And why did Ckret get it so wrong?

I never really believed Ckret was a good DBC researcher. And he had all the files.
This just proves it, in my mind.

Ckret let us all believe the untaken rig was some real skydiving rig, when it wasn't.

It's so funny that no one over the years went and talked to Hayden to get a picture. Only you.
Really lucky it was still there and you could get pictures.

Imagine if we were still talking about it as if it was a skydiving rig, and superior in any way.


Thanks.

Double thanks for sending me Hayden's contact information and address, too!

And my assessment is you and Snow have 90% of the readership so totally confused (and or pissed) they gave up on this years ago!  Thats why his parents sent Trump off to military school at age 14! To get rid of him and his psychosis in their lives!! One might dub this the Mucklow reaction? 

What's a parachute? :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:06:21 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #231 on: November 27, 2018, 01:44:25 AM »
The key takeaway for any supposed readership is this:

Everything you read about Cooper's parachute selection on the plane, indicating he was whuffo...like both FBI agents and the newspapers said, was wrong.

It was not clarified until the FBI memos were fully released in the last couple of years, and Bruce did the footwork that showed the FBI memos were right, and all the newspaper articles and FBI agents talking about chute selection indicating whuffo, were wrong.

It's important. That's why Bruce harps on it.

AND: we still can't be sure if the FBI info about 28 ft canopy is right or wrong.
A new thing is that I found the 1.1 oz fabric weight in the FBI files.

If Cossey id'ed the packed canopy as 28 ft incorrectly, then all these years, they've been looking at found chutes and dismissing them if not 28 ft...that all could be in error. And maybe Cooper's chute was found and dismissed!

So it's all a big deal. Bruce is right to continue to be the one to point out that there's still fuzziness and possible bad implications to the way this was all done and recorded. And we can't fix it: because Cossey's dead so we can't have an interview (and Cossey wouldn't tell the truth anyhow)
 

Offline Darren

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #232 on: November 27, 2018, 12:43:19 PM »
The conference was great! Thank you to everyone who spoke and everyone who came. I'm so thankful that Eric Ulis put this event on, it was awesome to get together.

An article on the conference by Courthouse News.

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Offline 377

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #233 on: November 27, 2018, 01:13:38 PM »
Cossey introduced so much noise into the parachute gear spectrum that it's hard to discern the signal.

I share some of the concern expressed that the real Cooper chute could have been dismissed due to Cossey's inaccurate and inconsistent canopy info.

Why did Cossey screw things up so much? What was his motive? Just a joker or troublemaker? Or was it something else?

I asked Bruce again about Cossey telling him that one of the canopies was a PARADISE type. Bruce confirmed that Cossey did say that. It's nuts.

I am 99% sure that Cooper jumped either a 26 ft Navy Conical or a 28 ft C9 round. I have jumped both. Both are tough as hell and quite reliable.

Sport mains were almost never FAA approved (TSO) as emergency bailout canopies. Also in 71, military surplus canopies that were FAA approved for emergency use were plentiful and cheap hence their widespread use.

We owe Eric Ulis for his gracious generosity in sponsoring the event and making it 100% free. The venue was convenient (close to PDX) and swanky (a country club). The V 23 pub gathering was so much fun. Looking forward to the next one.

Wish I could understand what Bryan Woodruff was trying to communicate. It has something to do with the book DB Cooper HA HA HA. It seemed very important to him but I just could not understand what it was.

377





 

Offline snowmman

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #234 on: November 27, 2018, 02:09:55 PM »
I have the HA HA HA book.

Surprisingly,  copies go for $150+ on Amazon right now.
someone just listed one for $39 though.

Apparently only 6000 copies were printed.

Blevins needs to take an economics course and study supply/demand pricing models.

It's just a silly book though.
 

Offline 377

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #235 on: November 27, 2018, 02:41:29 PM »
Crazy high Amazon asking prices are rarely paid by purchasers. It creates a real problem. If a seller sees a book listed at say $250 on Amazon that is identical to one he has, he feels compelled to list it at a comparable price lest he foolishly underprice it. Pretty soon all sellers want at least $200 for a common book. Today the bookstores look at Amazon before they price used books, so the brick and mortar price becomes crazy high as well. This results in a big unsold inventory of overpriced books.

My favorite local used bookstore had an aviation book that I was mildly interested in, but it sat on the shelf for a year unsold at $25. Recently I noted that the owner had changed the price to $175. The reason? One was listed on Amazon for that price. Crazy.

But my rare copies of Sheridan's book are an exception. They are truly worth a fortune. I will sell one for a genuine Cooper twenty with the full SN intact or $5000 in circulated US currency.  I'll let Bruce sell his copy first, however, since his needs exceed mine.

Actually my copies are spoken for. One goes to EU as thanks for sponsoring the conference. One goes to my wife who wants both Sheridan and Snowmman to personally autograph her copy at a lunch which we will schedule in Santa Rosa as soon as Sheridan's rage cools sufficiently. The last goes to my son who is developing an interest in the case.

377

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #236 on: November 27, 2018, 06:51:14 PM »
I ain't selling my copy, but I will read it to you over the phone, or at the V-23 pub. You're buying.... Donations go to Sheridan, or the Joint Petey-Cousin Brucie Nicaragua Resettlement Fund.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 06:52:38 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #237 on: November 28, 2018, 12:06:45 AM »
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I have the HA HA HA book.

Surprisingly,  copies go for $150+ on Amazon right now.
someone just listed one for $39 though.

Apparently only 6000 copies were printed.

Blevins needs to take an economics course and study supply/demand pricing models.

It's just a silly book though.

The "Ha Ha Ha" book was a bit overhyped as a Cooper book.  The last page is an invitation to the DB Cooper days.  The Cooper stuff appears only at the beginning and the end.  My thought was the basic book was unrelated to Cooper and the stuff was added later to hype the event.  The Arial Tavern had several boxes of the book and sold them for $2 each.

eVickiW and I bought a few and sold them on Amazon for a small profit (not $250 apiece, but close to $70).  When you sell them, you see who the buyer is.  One of the buyers was Lyle Christiansen (Kenny's brother) in Morris, MN.
 

Offline Robertrand

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #238 on: November 28, 2018, 02:39:24 AM »
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I have the HA HA HA book.

Surprisingly,  copies go for $150+ on Amazon right now.
someone just listed one for $39 though.

Apparently only 6000 copies were printed.

Blevins needs to take an economics course and study supply/demand pricing models.

It's just a silly book though.

I bought a copy off Bryan for $20 bucks at the conference. I had no idea it was so valuable!
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: 2018 DB Cooper Conference
« Reply #239 on: November 28, 2018, 02:48:52 AM »
I remember when they were 2 bucks apiece at the Ariel Tavern. 2013?