Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1110324 times)

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8775 on: July 21, 2022, 11:14:28 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here are a couple of items that bear directly on the Cooper hijacking.

First, everyone should read Dr. Robert Edward's July 21st post on his blog.  If the FBI lives up to its word, then significant new information may become available in the very near future thanks to Dr. Edward's FOIA requests.  Soderlind is the NWA official whose name is redacted in the FBI information.

Second, everyone should also read FlyJack's post #57342 on DropZone.  Again, Soderlind is the individual who provided the information to the FBI agent within a day or two of the hijacking.  Soderland gives an 8:12 PM PST time as the latest for Cooper jumping.  And at 8:12 PM PST, the airliner would be well north of the Columbia River in the Portland International Airport area.

So this eliminates any theory that Cooper jumped after 8:12 PM or south of the Columbia River in the PIA area.
You just said that at 8:12 pm, the airline would be well north of the Columbia River in the PORTLAND INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AREA. ????? Portland International Airport is on the SOUTH SHORE of the Columbia River !
Am I misreading what you meant ? 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 11:18:31 PM by Kermit »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8776 on: July 22, 2022, 12:14:34 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here are a couple of items that bear directly on the Cooper hijacking.

First, everyone should read Dr. Robert Edward's July 21st post on his blog.  If the FBI lives up to its word, then significant new information may become available in the very near future thanks to Dr. Edward's FOIA requests.  Soderlind is the NWA official whose name is redacted in the FBI information.

Second, everyone should also read FlyJack's post #57342 on DropZone.  Again, Soderlind is the individual who provided the information to the FBI agent within a day or two of the hijacking.  Soderland gives an 8:12 PM PST time as the latest for Cooper jumping.  And at 8:12 PM PST, the airliner would be well north of the Columbia River in the Portland International Airport area.

So this eliminates any theory that Cooper jumped after 8:12 PM or south of the Columbia River in the PIA area.
You just said that at 8:12 pm, the airline would be well north of the Columbia River in the PORTLAND INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AREA. ????? Portland International Airport is on the SOUTH SHORE of the Columbia River !
Am I misreading what you meant ?

Kermit, I have been to the PIA, which is indeed on the south side of the Columbia River, and I have parked on the east/west road on the north side of the Columbia (which is Vancouver, WA) and watched National Guard F-15s pop out of a low overcast to land at PIA.  I have also driven along that east/west road that is on the south side of the Columbia and between the river and the PIA.  And I have also visited the shopping center that is adjacent to that road and the airport.

So please let me try to be a bit clearer on what I was trying to say.  At 8:12 PM, according to the so-called FBI map which Solderlind may or may not have had a hand in preparing, the airliner would have been about 15 miles directly north of the PIA.  This eliminates any possibility of Cooper jumping anywhere south of the Columbia River in that area.  It also eliminates any jump times after 8:12 PM.

Now let's move downstream on the Columbia River and make that 90-degree turn to the north.  At Tena Bar, the river is flowing a couple of degrees east of True North.  At 8:11/8:12 PM, according to my calculations which have been discussed here and at DropZone at great length, the airliner would be almost directly over the Columbia River if it was on the Western Flight Path.  And it would have been overhead of the Columbia River for about the last 5 or 10 miles before it got to the Tena Bar area.

So if the airliner was on the FBI flight path, Cooper did not jump anywhere close to the Columbia River.  And if the airliner was on the Western Flight Path, the Columbia River was about two miles straight down when he jumped.

Hopefully, this clarifies what I was trying to say.   
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 12:16:47 AM by Robert99 »
 
The following users thanked this post: Kermit

Offline fcastle866

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 281
  • Thanked: 106 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8777 on: July 22, 2022, 09:31:52 AM »
Kermit and RaoulDuke: Good to see you back on here.  Robert: I know we've discussed air speed a lot, but my searches bring up too many posts.  Can you comment on this in laymans terms?  I read a 302 that said the plane was at 160 knots IAS.  If the plane was going 160 knots with zero wind tail or front, that would be 184 MPH right? But altitude would affect that too right?  I may never truly understand all the nuances between IAS, TAS, CAS etc.  But what I did see is that after the Netflix episode, people were saying he jumped at 250 MPH. That just seems very high to me.  My understanding is that he jumped going a little faster than a normal skydiver would do.
 

Offline Kermit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8778 on: July 22, 2022, 12:24:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here are a couple of items that bear directly on the Cooper hijacking.

First, everyone should read Dr. Robert Edward's July 21st post on his blog.  If the FBI lives up to its word, then significant new information may become available in the very near future thanks to Dr. Edward's FOIA requests.  Soderlind is the NWA official whose name is redacted in the FBI information.

Second, everyone should also read FlyJack's post #57342 on DropZone.  Again, Soderlind is the individual who provided the information to the FBI agent within a day or two of the hijacking.  Soderland gives an 8:12 PM PST time as the latest for Cooper jumping.  And at 8:12 PM PST, the airliner would be well north of the Columbia River in the Portland International Airport area.

So this eliminates any theory that Cooper jumped after 8:12 PM or south of the Columbia River in the PIA area.
You just said that at 8:12 pm, the airline would be well north of the Columbia River in the PORTLAND INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT AREA. ????? Portland International Airport is on the SOUTH SHORE of the Columbia River !
Am I misreading what you meant ?

Kermit, I have been to the PIA, which is indeed on the south side of the Columbia River, and I have parked on the east/west road on the north side of the Columbia (which is Vancouver, WA) and watched National Guard F-15s pop out of a low overcast to land at PIA.  I have also driven along that east/west road that is on the south side of the Columbia and between the river and the PIA.  And I have also visited the shopping center that is adjacent to that road and the airport.

So please let me try to be a bit clearer on what I was trying to say.  At 8:12 PM, according to the so-called FBI map which Solderlind may or may not have had a hand in preparing, the airliner would have been about 15 miles directly north of the PIA.  This eliminates any possibility of Cooper jumping anywhere south of the Columbia River in that area.  It also eliminates any jump times after 8:12 PM.

Now let's move downstream on the Columbia River and make that 90-degree turn to the north.  At Tena Bar, the river is flowing a couple of degrees east of True North.  At 8:11/8:12 PM, according to my calculations which have been discussed here and at DropZone at great length, the airliner would be almost directly over the Columbia River if it was on the Western Flight Path.  And it would have been overhead of the Columbia River for about the last 5 or 10 miles before it got to the Tena Bar area.

So if the airliner was on the FBI flight path, Cooper did not jump anywhere close to the Columbia River.  And if the airliner was on the Western Flight Path, the Columbia River was about two miles straight down when he jumped.

Hopefully, this clarifies what I was trying to say.

Robert, Thanks and we’re on the same page. BTW That Oregon Air National Guard Unit was my Unit from 1962 to 1968 and I was in Refueling Maintenance! My next door neighbor here in Vader was a career Vehicle Mechanic in same unit from 1966 to 1990 ‘s. My wife’s Uncle was Chief Master Sargent there. So much inside information was there for the asking but 50 year’s has taken it’s toll ! 😫
The money find at Tina Bar doesn’t necessarily mean Cooper bailed nearby. It’s a decent theory but I’m still leaning towards the FBI flight plan yet.
I’m aware that you’ve explored the area in recent years. The amount of changes to the Airport and Airbase over the years are unbelievable! There was no Glenn Jackson bridge or Shopping Center. It was a different world the day Cooper boarded that plane. Someday we’ll hopefully have a drink and I’ll tell you some stories of the good old days in Portland ! Yes I’m still buying those Green bananas!😜

 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
  • Thanked: 43 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8779 on: July 22, 2022, 05:06:53 PM »
              Love hearing from the ole -time locals! As I was growing up in the early 1970's, I can remember one of my teachers referring to the Pacific northwest as the modern day  "Wild West". Was there any truth in that Kermit? How else has it changed?         Green bananas?  Lol
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8780 on: July 22, 2022, 06:11:24 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Kermit and RaoulDuke: Good to see you back on here.  Robert: I know we've discussed air speed a lot, but my searches bring up too many posts.  Can you comment on this in laymans terms?  I read a 302 that said the plane was at 160 knots IAS.  If the plane was going 160 knots with zero wind tail or front, that would be 184 MPH right? But altitude would affect that too right?  I may never truly understand all the nuances between IAS, TAS, CAS etc.  But what I did see is that after the Netflix episode, people were saying he jumped at 250 MPH. That just seems very high to me.  My understanding is that he jumped going a little faster than a normal skydiver would do.

Let me expand on the terms that are relevant to the NWA 305 hijacking.  First, I would highly recommend that anyone interested in this subject or aircraft navigation visit the FAA website and download some of the free publications on these subjects.  The FAA publications are excellent.

INDICATED AIRSPEED

The usual way to measure the speed of subsonic aircraft through the airmass (this is NOT to be confused with ground speed) is by two pressure sensing instruments and a temperature sensing instrument onboard the aircraft.  The pressure sensing instruments are the Airspeed Instrument and the Altimeter.  The simplest temperature sensing instrument is a standard aircraft thermometer that is exposed to the airstream around the aircraft.

The Airspeed Instrument requires two pressure sensing ports.  One port measures the "total pressure" and the other port measures the "static pressure" which is subtracted from the total pressure to determine the "dynamic pressure".  The dynamic pressure is what appears on the face of the Airspeed Instrument where it is presented in a speed scale (such as Knots - Nautical Miles Per Hour) based on a Standard Atmosphere. 

The Altimeter sensing port measures the ambient pressure at the altitude the aircraft is flying and presents that on the Altimeter as a function of the height based on the Standard Atmosphere.  The altimeter is usually extremely accurate.  All of the pressure ports for the altimeter and airspeed are carefully selected after extensive flight testing.  NASA made a study of airliner aircraft operations some years ago and concluded that their pressure instruments were quite accurate.

CALIBRATED AIRSPEED (TRUE INDICATED AIRSPEED)

The Calibrated Airspeed is the Indicated Airspeed corrected for any errors in the location of the pressure sensing ports ("position error") and the airspeed instrument itself.  These errors are normally relatively small.

TRUE AIRSPEED

The True Airspeed is the True Indicated Airspeed corrected for variations in the altitude and temperature.  The True Indicated Airspeed and True Airspeed are the same only at sea level in a Standard atmosphere.  The Standard Atmosphere specifies the temperature and pressure at sea level.

CORRECTING FOR ALTITUDE AND TEMPERATURE

Jeppesen and other firms market pilot hand calculators, both plastic and electronic, to determine the True Speed at various altitudes, temperatures, and indicated airspeeds.  The True Airspeed will increase as the aircraft increases its altitude while flying at a constant indicated airspeed.

More later on determining groundspeed.     
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • Thanked: 97 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8781 on: July 22, 2022, 07:26:05 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The simplest temperature sensing instrument is a standard aircraft thermometer that is exposed to the airstream around the aircraft.   

This might be a stupid question, but does the high airspeed affect the instrument's temperature reading? Would wind chill factor affect it, or is that just a human perception? Or could it be affected by the air friction of high speed?
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8782 on: July 23, 2022, 12:01:22 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The simplest temperature sensing instrument is a standard aircraft thermometer that is exposed to the airstream around the aircraft.   

This might be a stupid question, but does the high airspeed affect the instrument's temperature reading? Would wind chill factor affect it, or is that just a human perception? Or could it be affected by the air friction of high speed?

Yes.  Above about 200 MPH, aerodynamic heating on the temperature probe must be corrected to obtain a correct and valid ambient temperature.  When Cooper jumped at 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH True Airspeed, the ambient temperature was several degrees Fahrenheit less than what was shown on the airliner's instrument which was part of its Mach Number gage.  I forget the exact number but it was taken into account in the flight performance analysis.

As I understand it, the wind chill factor is based on human perception for a given temperature and wind velocity.  The high-speed air friction has to be accounted for as mentioned above to determine the ambient temperature but this would not be applicable to the wind chill factor which would be based on the ambient temperature.     
 
The following users thanked this post: dudeman17

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
  • Thanked: 459 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8783 on: July 23, 2022, 11:39:21 PM »
Interview with Larry Carr


Larry Carr was the DB Cooper case agent from 2007-2010, and is perhaps the best-known case agent in the history of Norjak – the FBI’s designation for the Cooper investigation.

During his tenure, Carr was instrumental in advancing the case in many ways, such as establishing the Citizen Sleuths Team in 2009 and joining a chat room on Cooper, known as the DropZone, to publicize the FBI’s findings. In addition, he released information about the evidence that had been unknown to the public prior, such as revealing the existence of a clip-on tie and clasp thought to be left behind by the skyjacker.

Carr was also media savvy, and relished his many appearances before TV news cameras, most famously touting that DB Cooper was a tumbling, bumbling fool who nearly froze to death on the aft stairs as he exited his 727 jetliner, and was too immobilized or too incompetent to successfully skydive to safety.

After his promotion to FBI HQ in Washington, D.C. in 2010, Carr was mostly absent from Norjak. But he returned to the FBI’s Seattle division recently, and tip-toed back into Cooper conversation, most notably on the Facebook Group page on DB Cooper, and in 2022 appearing on Darren Schaefer’s podcast: The Cooper Vortex.

On the Vortex broadcast, Larry mentioned that I had unfairly characterized the FBI in my work on Cooper, and I reached out to him to seek an interview and learn what I had gotten wrong about the Bureau’s treatment of Norjak. Carr replied favorably and informed me that he would be happy to chat with me once his retirement from the FBI was finalized in May, 2022. Hence, we spoke several weeks later.

Note: some of the exact dialogue or wording has been changed for the sake of clarity.

BAS
So, what did I get wrong about the FBI, Larry? Can you tell me what I’ve written that is incorrect or misleading?
LC - It’s not your writing, so much. In fact, I haven’t read your book. It’s your videos and what you say in your public addresses. You’re anti-FBI and anti-law enforcement.
BAS - I’m not anti-FBI, Larry. I’ve publicly stated that we need the cops to keep us safe. What I am “anti” about is lousy police work, and the FBI has lost much of the critical evidence in the Cooper case, such as the cigarette butts.
LC - But you’re highly critical of the FBI in your videos, and the FBI was extremely thorough in its Norjak investigation. Remember, the FBI has solved 99% of the other skyjackings that have occurred in this country,” Larry rebutted.

Larry and I bantered over my portrayal of the FBI without resolve. Eventually Larry spoke with finality:
LC - DB Cooper died the night he jumped. The trail of clues end when he leaves the plane.

With that kind of pronouncement, I decided to move the discussion in a new direction.

BAS - Can you tell me how Geoffrey Gray got his unprecedented access to you and the Norjak files?
LC - He asked. He wrote to me asking for access, and described that he wanted to write a book that was based on facts and wouldn’t tout a suspect or any theory. He convinced me that he would do a worthy job.
BAS - Why not me, though? Why did Geoffrey get access that others like me were denied?
LC - I didn’t believe your motives were legit. I thought you were only out to trash the FBI.

Sensing I was hitting a familiar roadblock, I opted to change the conversation.

BAS - Can you tell me how the Citizen Sleuths came into being?
LC - Well, I didn’t want to tax the lab, (The FBI’s National Crime Lab in DC.) I talked to Tom Kaye, and I thought it was a good way to go.
BAS - What role did Jerry Warner play in the development of the Citizen Sleuths?
LC - Who?
BAS - Jerry Warner. Jerry has told me that you reached out to him, before Tom Kaye, and in fact he says that he recommended that you ask Tom to head up the Citizen Sleuths.”
LC - Who’s this guy, Jerry…?
BAS - Jerry Warner. You might know him as “Georger” on the DropZone or the DB Cooper Forum.
LC - Nope. Don’t know him.
BAS - Okay. How about Jeremy Blauser? Can you tell me how he got involved in the Cooper investigation?
LC - Who?
BAS - Jeremy Blauser. He was an agent out of the Los Angeles office who interviewed Pat Forman about her writings on Barb Dayton. When I talked with you in 2008 you told me that Jeremy Blauser was assisting you in your Cooper investigation.
LC - Well, he must have been a Seattle agent if he was working on Cooper.
BAS - I called the LA office to the number listed on the business card that Blauser gave to Pat Forman, and the LA people said Blauser was based in their office, but was currently on assignment elsewhere and they couldn’t reveal where.
LC - He must have been assigned to the Seattle Division. That’s all I can say.
BAS - How about Charlie Farrell? Did you ever read his 300-page manuscript that he wrote about his work on Norjak?
LC - I don’t know anything about him, and no, I haven’t read his manuscript.
BAS - Ever talk to him?
LC - No. I never talked with him.

Note: Charlie Farrell was the initial case agent in Norjak, leading the investigation from 1971 until his retirement in 1977. Geoffrey Gray discussed Farrell and his manuscript in detail at the Cooper Symposium in Portland in 2011.

BAS - How about other case agents? Have you consulted with any of them?
LC - Yes, I’ve spoken with Ralph Hope at length. Ralph Hope tried to find the cigarette butts in about 2002 or 2003. He sent formal queries down to Las Vegas, as I did later, informally.
BAS - Is this what you were talking about on the DropZone when you mentioned that the butts had been processed in 2003?
LC - No. The cigarette butts had been processed, but that was back in early 1972. Whatever you read at the DropZone was some kind of mis-communication there.

BAS - What can you tell me about the fingerprints? Galen Cook has told me that you’ve told him that the Bureau has a good print of Cooper’s – a thumb print – and it was recovered by a Seattle team the day after the Reno crew did their work.
LC - Well… I … umm. As far as I know the Bureau got 41 prints down in Reno. I may be wrong on that exact number, and there are no good prints of DB Cooper that I am aware of.
BAS - Didn’t a team from Seattle get a good print on Thanksgiving Day, when the plane came into Boeing Field for repairs? I thought I've read about that recovery in a 302.
LC - A Seattle-based search? I’m not aware of any. That would’ve been highly unusual. I don’t think it happened, but if it’s in a 302, then it probably happened.

BAS - How about the shards from Tina Bar that were recovered by Himmelsbach’s team in 1980. The PIO for the dig, Dorwin Schroeder, told me they retrieved about 6-8 large shards – big enough to read the serial numbers – underneath the area where the three bundles had been found earlier by the kid. Have you seen those shards? A TV film crew videoed Schroeder and his team placing those fragments into Plasticine evidence envelopes, but no one has seen them since, apparently. Certainly not the Citizen Sleuths when they went through the evidence back in 2009 and 2010.
LC - I never saw those shards. There were plenty of smaller pieces, and they were stored in small plastic boxes. But these larger shards – not only have I not seen them, there is no documentation of them existing. But you say there is video of them being bagged, I’d love to see it. Can you send me a link?
BAS - How about the hair follicles? I understand they are missing, too, along with the cigarette butts.
LC - Yes, they were sent to the lab, and the lab claimed they were sent back to Las Vegas. Ralph Hope chased them down, and he thought it might have been mis-directed to the Los Angeles Division, but that was not the case. I don’t see Las Vegas getting rid of them, though. Nor the cigarette butts. I see the possibility of Las Vegas destroying the hair samples as being very far-fetched. Maybe not the butts so much, but definitely the hair samples. Instead, I think the hair – and possibly the cigarette butts – came back from the lab and were placed into “1-A Evidence.” It’s how all evidence is tagged when it comes into an office. I think the hair came in and got designated at 1-A, but was not attached to any outstanding DB Cooper case file. So, I think the hair is still down in Las Vegas. I went through every 1-A file here in the Seattle Division basement and didn’t find anything. But I think the hair – and maybe the butts – are down in a Las Vegas Division basement, somewhere.”


BAS - How about Al Di? Any idea who he might be?
LC - Who?”
BAS - Al Di, the guy who decoded the letter signed by DB Cooper that is generally called ‘Letter Number 3.’ Al DI made a stir in August 2011 by conclusively showing that this letter was a cut and paste job using pages from two different 1970 Playboy magazines. Some people say that Al Di was Norjak agent Curtis Eng doing an end-around the Bureau for unknown reasons.
LC - Eng? That’s ridiculous. I know Curtis Eng and he would never do anything like that. As for the letters, I think it’s simply the work of trolls – remember there were a lot of letters sent to the FBI signed by DB Cooper - but I think it’s really a statement about the collectors of this kind of trivia.

BAS - What about Lynn Doyle Cooper? Curtis Eng thought it was the Bureau’s "most promising suspect" as of 2011.
LC - I talked with Curtis about this after I had gotten to DC. There was nothing there. It wasn’t any more legitimate than Duane Weber.
BAS - How about the Amboy chute? Can you tell me where it was found, exactly, and by whom?
LC - I’ve long-forgotten the name of the guy who found it, but I can tell you that his house is located exactly on the line of the most probable landing zone for DB Cooper. The guy who found it doesn’t want to be known, and the chute was found in a trash pile. It wasn’t buried; it was just mixed-in with years’ worth of garbage the previous owner had thrown out, and this guy was trying to clean up his property.
BAS - Speaking of chutes, what can you tell me about the true role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
LC - DB Cooper was 100% a no-pull. As for Cossey, he was not a major player in the Cooper case…. I never got involved in his murder, and I can’t imagine how it could be connected to the Cooper investigation. Frankly, I can’t give you any insight into the matter.
BAS - Regarding the chutes, what do you make of the recent release of a 302 conclusively showing that a second Pioneer/Steinthal back chute packing card was found in Reno the night of. Doesn’t prove that Cossey was wrong about the NB-6, and that Norman Hayden was correct in claiming that he gave Northwest Orient two identical back chutes since we have proof of the second Pioneer/Steinthal packing card?
LC - I haven’t seen that particular 302; can you send me a link to it? But what you are saying runs counter to the previously released 302s, which support the idea of two different back chutes – one tan and one sage-green. Remember, Earl played with journalists. He was a very interesting, um, character.

BAS - Did you ever talk to any of the old hands – the guys who worked the case since the beginning and are still around – like John Detlor and Bob Fuhriman?
LC - I’ve gone to a couple of retired agent parties, but I haven’t had any in-depth conversations with the ‘old hands’ as you say. There was nothing more they could tell me, as I had everything I needed.
BAS - Tina? Ever talk to her? She’s getting her own movie soon.
LC - No, I’ve never talked with Tina, nor have I heard anything about the movie.

BAS - What can you tell me about the money stored at SeaFirst bank? Who arranged that, and when?
LC - The money was not pre-set. The banks took it upon themselves to have a stash available for ransom demands. 100%. The banks pre-staged everything. I never saw a 302 saying the FBI pre-staged money for ransoms, so please send me a link if you have seen any documentation on other scenarios.
BAS - What do you think of the upcoming Netflix special on DB Cooper?”
LC - I’m aware of it. Eric has told me about it.
BAS - Do you follow the Cooper case?
LC - I’m certainly interested.
BAS - How’s retirement?
LC - Good. If I had the money, I’d be playing golf every day. But I’m not that rich. I coach a lot, though. Volleyball, and track and field at the high school level, or for local club teams. My girls got volleyball scholarships, of which I am proud. When I went to Florida State, I was on the track and field team, competing in the pole vault, long jump and the high hurdles.

©
2022
Bruce A. Smith
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 11:49:00 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 
The following users thanked this post: Parrotheadvol, Robert99

Offline Parrotheadvol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
  • Thanked: 126 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8784 on: July 23, 2022, 11:40:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I was surprised that Geoffrey Gray has now become the apparent spokesperson for the DB Cooper case. At times that really pisses me off as he hasn't done a thing on the case for ten years. But he is superb TV. Sigh.


I enjoyed his part of the show. But if he ever decides to run against you for Mayor of Coopertown, I'd say you win in a landslide. I'll even stake a Re-Elect Bruce sign in my yard!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 11:52:59 PM by Parrotheadvol »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
  • Thanked: 459 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8785 on: July 24, 2022, 12:02:04 AM »
Smile, Parrot. I'm jealous of GG, I guess.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
  • Thanked: 459 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8786 on: July 24, 2022, 12:03:15 AM »
BTW: if y'all want to see the Mountain News version of my interview with Larry, and see the commentary - which is often different than here - come on down to the MN:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1679
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8787 on: July 24, 2022, 01:39:47 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Interview with Larry Carr


Larry Carr was the DB Cooper case agent from 2007-2010, and is perhaps the best-known case agent in the history of Norjak – the FBI’s designation for the Cooper investigation.

During his tenure, Carr was instrumental in advancing the case in many ways, such as establishing the Citizen Sleuths Team in 2009 and joining a chat room on Cooper, known as the DropZone, to publicize the FBI’s findings. In addition, he released information about the evidence that had been unknown to the public prior, such as revealing the existence of a clip-on tie and clasp thought to be left behind by the skyjacker.

Carr was also media savvy, and relished his many appearances before TV news cameras, most famously touting that DB Cooper was a tumbling, bumbling fool who nearly froze to death on the aft stairs as he exited his 727 jetliner, and was too immobilized or too incompetent to successfully skydive to safety.

After his promotion to FBI HQ in Washington, D.C. in 2010, Carr was mostly absent from Norjak. But he returned to the FBI’s Seattle division recently, and tip-toed back into Cooper conversation, most notably on the Facebook Group page on DB Cooper, and in 2022 appearing on Darren Schaefer’s podcast: The Cooper Vortex.

On the Vortex broadcast, Larry mentioned that I had unfairly characterized the FBI in my work on Cooper, and I reached out to him to seek an interview and learn what I had gotten wrong about the Bureau’s treatment of Norjak. Carr replied favorably and informed me that he would be happy to chat with me once his retirement from the FBI was finalized in May, 2022. Hence, we spoke several weeks later.

Note: some of the exact dialogue or wording has been changed for the sake of clarity.

BAS
So, what did I get wrong about the FBI, Larry? Can you tell me what I’ve written that is incorrect or misleading?
LC - It’s not your writing, so much. In fact, I haven’t read your book. It’s your videos and what you say in your public addresses. You’re anti-FBI and anti-law enforcement.
BAS - I’m not anti-FBI, Larry. I’ve publicly stated that we need the cops to keep us safe. What I am “anti” about is lousy police work, and the FBI has lost much of the critical evidence in the Cooper case, such as the cigarette butts.
LC - But you’re highly critical of the FBI in your videos, and the FBI was extremely thorough in its Norjak investigation. Remember, the FBI has solved 99% of the other skyjackings that have occurred in this country,” Larry rebutted.

Larry and I bantered over my portrayal of the FBI without resolve. Eventually Larry spoke with finality:
LC - DB Cooper died the night he jumped. The trail of clues end when he leaves the plane.

With that kind of pronouncement, I decided to move the discussion in a new direction.

BAS - Can you tell me how Geoffrey Gray got his unprecedented access to you and the Norjak files?
LC - He asked. He wrote to me asking for access, and described that he wanted to write a book that was based on facts and wouldn’t tout a suspect or any theory. He convinced me that he would do a worthy job.
BAS - Why not me, though? Why did Geoffrey get access that others like me were denied?
LC - I didn’t believe your motives were legit. I thought you were only out to trash the FBI.

Sensing I was hitting a familiar roadblock, I opted to change the conversation.

BAS - Can you tell me how the Citizen Sleuths came into being?
LC - Well, I didn’t want to tax the lab, (The FBI’s National Crime Lab in DC.) I talked to Tom Kaye, and I thought it was a good way to go.
BAS - What role did Jerry Warner play in the development of the Citizen Sleuths?
LC - Who?
BAS - Jerry Warner. Jerry has told me that you reached out to him, before Tom Kaye, and in fact he says that he recommended that you ask Tom to head up the Citizen Sleuths.”
LC - Who’s this guy, Jerry…?
BAS - Jerry Warner. You might know him as “Georger” on the DropZone or the DB Cooper Forum.
LC - Nope. Don’t know him.
BAS - Okay. How about Jeremy Blauser? Can you tell me how he got involved in the Cooper investigation?
LC - Who?
BAS - Jeremy Blauser. He was an agent out of the Los Angeles office who interviewed Pat Forman about her writings on Barb Dayton. When I talked with you in 2008 you told me that Jeremy Blauser was assisting you in your Cooper investigation.
LC - Well, he must have been a Seattle agent if he was working on Cooper.
BAS - I called the LA office to the number listed on the business card that Blauser gave to Pat Forman, and the LA people said Blauser was based in their office, but was currently on assignment elsewhere and they couldn’t reveal where.
LC - He must have been assigned to the Seattle Division. That’s all I can say.
BAS - How about Charlie Farrell? Did you ever read his 300-page manuscript that he wrote about his work on Norjak?
LC - I don’t know anything about him, and no, I haven’t read his manuscript.
BAS - Ever talk to him?
LC - No. I never talked with him.

Note: Charlie Farrell was the initial case agent in Norjak, leading the investigation from 1971 until his retirement in 1977. Geoffrey Gray discussed Farrell and his manuscript in detail at the Cooper Symposium in Portland in 2011.

BAS - How about other case agents? Have you consulted with any of them?
LC - Yes, I’ve spoken with Ralph Hope at length. Ralph Hope tried to find the cigarette butts in about 2002 or 2003. He sent formal queries down to Las Vegas, as I did later, informally.
BAS - Is this what you were talking about on the DropZone when you mentioned that the butts had been processed in 2003?
LC - No. The cigarette butts had been processed, but that was back in early 1972. Whatever you read at the DropZone was some kind of mis-communication there.

BAS - What can you tell me about the fingerprints? Galen Cook has told me that you’ve told him that the Bureau has a good print of Cooper’s – a thumb print – and it was recovered by a Seattle team the day after the Reno crew did their work.
LC - Well… I … umm. As far as I know the Bureau got 41 prints down in Reno. I may be wrong on that exact number, and there are no good prints of DB Cooper that I am aware of.
BAS - Didn’t a team from Seattle get a good print on Thanksgiving Day, when the plane came into Boeing Field for repairs? I thought I've read about that recovery in a 302.
LC - A Seattle-based search? I’m not aware of any. That would’ve been highly unusual. I don’t think it happened, but if it’s in a 302, then it probably happened.

BAS - How about the shards from Tina Bar that were recovered by Himmelsbach’s team in 1980. The PIO for the dig, Dorwin Schroeder, told me they retrieved about 6-8 large shards – big enough to read the serial numbers – underneath the area where the three bundles had been found earlier by the kid. Have you seen those shards? A TV film crew videoed Schroeder and his team placing those fragments into Plasticine evidence envelopes, but no one has seen them since, apparently. Certainly not the Citizen Sleuths when they went through the evidence back in 2009 and 2010.
LC - I never saw those shards. There were plenty of smaller pieces, and they were stored in small plastic boxes. But these larger shards – not only have I not seen them, there is no documentation of them existing. But you say there is video of them being bagged, I’d love to see it. Can you send me a link?
BAS - How about the hair follicles? I understand they are missing, too, along with the cigarette butts.
LC - Yes, they were sent to the lab, and the lab claimed they were sent back to Las Vegas. Ralph Hope chased them down, and he thought it might have been mis-directed to the Los Angeles Division, but that was not the case. I don’t see Las Vegas getting rid of them, though. Nor the cigarette butts. I see the possibility of Las Vegas destroying the hair samples as being very far-fetched. Maybe not the butts so much, but definitely the hair samples. Instead, I think the hair – and possibly the cigarette butts – came back from the lab and were placed into “1-A Evidence.” It’s how all evidence is tagged when it comes into an office. I think the hair came in and got designated at 1-A, but was not attached to any outstanding DB Cooper case file. So, I think the hair is still down in Las Vegas. I went through every 1-A file here in the Seattle Division basement and didn’t find anything. But I think the hair – and maybe the butts – are down in a Las Vegas Division basement, somewhere.”


BAS - How about Al Di? Any idea who he might be?
LC - Who?”
BAS - Al Di, the guy who decoded the letter signed by DB Cooper that is generally called ‘Letter Number 3.’ Al DI made a stir in August 2011 by conclusively showing that this letter was a cut and paste job using pages from two different 1970 Playboy magazines. Some people say that Al Di was Norjak agent Curtis Eng doing an end-around the Bureau for unknown reasons.
LC - Eng? That’s ridiculous. I know Curtis Eng and he would never do anything like that. As for the letters, I think it’s simply the work of trolls – remember there were a lot of letters sent to the FBI signed by DB Cooper - but I think it’s really a statement about the collectors of this kind of trivia.

BAS - What about Lynn Doyle Cooper? Curtis Eng thought it was the Bureau’s "most promising suspect" as of 2011.
LC - I talked with Curtis about this after I had gotten to DC. There was nothing there. It wasn’t any more legitimate than Duane Weber.
BAS - How about the Amboy chute? Can you tell me where it was found, exactly, and by whom?
LC - I’ve long-forgotten the name of the guy who found it, but I can tell you that his house is located exactly on the line of the most probable landing zone for DB Cooper. The guy who found it doesn’t want to be known, and the chute was found in a trash pile. It wasn’t buried; it was just mixed-in with years’ worth of garbage the previous owner had thrown out, and this guy was trying to clean up his property.
BAS - Speaking of chutes, what can you tell me about the true role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
LC - DB Cooper was 100% a no-pull. As for Cossey, he was not a major player in the Cooper case…. I never got involved in his murder, and I can’t imagine how it could be connected to the Cooper investigation. Frankly, I can’t give you any insight into the matter.
BAS - Regarding the chutes, what do you make of the recent release of a 302 conclusively showing that a second Pioneer/Steinthal back chute packing card was found in Reno the night of. Doesn’t prove that Cossey was wrong about the NB-6, and that Norman Hayden was correct in claiming that he gave Northwest Orient two identical back chutes since we have proof of the second Pioneer/Steinthal packing card?
LC - I haven’t seen that particular 302; can you send me a link to it? But what you are saying runs counter to the previously released 302s, which support the idea of two different back chutes – one tan and one sage-green. Remember, Earl played with journalists. He was a very interesting, um, character.

BAS - Did you ever talk to any of the old hands – the guys who worked the case since the beginning and are still around – like John Detlor and Bob Fuhriman?
LC - I’ve gone to a couple of retired agent parties, but I haven’t had any in-depth conversations with the ‘old hands’ as you say. There was nothing more they could tell me, as I had everything I needed.
BAS - Tina? Ever talk to her? She’s getting her own movie soon.
LC - No, I’ve never talked with Tina, nor have I heard anything about the movie.

BAS - What can you tell me about the money stored at SeaFirst bank? Who arranged that, and when?
LC - The money was not pre-set. The banks took it upon themselves to have a stash available for ransom demands. 100%. The banks pre-staged everything. I never saw a 302 saying the FBI pre-staged money for ransoms, so please send me a link if you have seen any documentation on other scenarios.
BAS - What do you think of the upcoming Netflix special on DB Cooper?”
LC - I’m aware of it. Eric has told me about it.
BAS - Do you follow the Cooper case?
LC - I’m certainly interested.
BAS - How’s retirement?
LC - Good. If I had the money, I’d be playing golf every day. But I’m not that rich. I coach a lot, though. Volleyball, and track and field at the high school level, or for local club teams. My girls got volleyball scholarships, of which I am proud. When I went to Florida State, I was on the track and field team, competing in the pole vault, long jump and the high hurdles.

©
2022
Bruce A. Smith

Bruce, here are some personal comments from me. 

First, I can also state that Jerry Warner (Georger) told me around 2009/2010 that he was the one who recommended that the FBI set up the Citizens Sleuths and contact Tom Kaye.  Carr obviously disagrees with Georger's claim.

Carr's statement that Cooper was a "100 percent no-pull" is totally correct in my opinion.  But that statement will probably cause a number of coronaries among some posters on this site.

Bruce, assuming that you didn't alienate Carr as you typically do to the people you interview, please ask him if he has seen the unredacted Seattle ATC Center's radio transcripts, if he knows where the so-called FBI flight path map came from, and did he personally ever speak to any member of the flight crew?

Within the past week or so, Dr. Robert Edwards has received about five positive replies to some of his FBI FOIA requests.  Hopefully, the FBI has decided that Dr. Edwards is a suitable researcher for the Cooper matter.  And in my personal opinion he has demonstrated in his book, on his blog, and other posts that he is the most qualified researcher currently available to advance the overall research in the Cooper hijacking.   
 

Offline JAG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Thanked: 51 times
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8788 on: July 24, 2022, 08:46:48 AM »
Thanks Bruce ! 

So, I think the hair is still down in Las Vegas. I went through every 1-A file here in the Seattle Division basement and didn’t find anything. But I think the hair – and maybe the butts – are down in a Las Vegas Division basement, somewhere.”

FULL STOP -- If this is possible, how is it that nobody from the FBI has made it a point to lock themselves in the Las Vegas FO basement and not come out until the cigarette butts, and to a lesser degree, the hair follicle were found? 

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
  • Thanked: 459 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #8789 on: July 24, 2022, 12:28:27 PM »
I congratulate Doc Edwards on getting his FOIA requests fulfilled.

R99, thanks for corroborating what Georger told me about the Citizen Sleuths.

Jag, why do you think no one from the FBI is camping out in the LV basement? From my point of view, the FBI has few people who would take that kind of initiative.