Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 708490 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3315 on: September 19, 2022, 09:51:37 AM »
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He seemed reasonably comfortable with changes in the plan and may well have anticipated a number of possible changes to the plan as things progressed.

That might indicate jumping and/or military experience. I think in both circumstances it is standard to pre-plan for all possible contingencies.

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Would there have been any issues jumping out of an ascending aircraft?

Depends on the aircraft. In smaller aircraft, jumping out of a side door, if it's in a climbing attitude it could increase the chances of striking the tail. Coming out of the rear stairs of that jet would not present that problem. However, a climbing aircraft is under more power and has more speed, and that can be a problem. Especially in that jet, he would want that thing slowed down as much as possible, which would mean level flight, and was the reason he asked for flaps and gear down.

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If the steps had been lowered prior to take off would they have been in a locked position?

Those steps down and locked were designed to support the tail of that aircraft. With all the engines on the tail, it was tail-heavy and could tip back while being boarded. So if the stairs were locked down, it would prevent the plane from rotating properly for takeoff, and could cause it to crash.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3316 on: September 19, 2022, 04:10:18 PM »
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

A fascinating thought process. Should we consider 'hoped for' as opposed to anticipated? He seemed reasonably comfortable with changes in the plan and may well have anticipated a number of possible changes to the plan as things progressed.

Would there have been any issues jumping out of an ascending aircraft? If the steps had been lowered prior to take off would they have been in a locked position?

Jumping from a 727 that was climbing or descending would not be a problem.

If the aft stairs were down and locked, there would probably be a problem in taking off depending on the flap setting.  The pilots might not have sufficient longitudinal control power to crush the aft stairs and rotate the aircraft to the angle of attack necessary to take off.  And the required angle of attack depends on the leading edge device settings and the trailing edge flap settings.

If the aft stairs were down and not locked, there would not be any problem taking off.  The aft stairs would be off the pavement within one or two hundred feet of the start of the take-off roll due to both the dynamic and aerodynamic forces on it.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3317 on: November 16, 2022, 11:04:35 AM »
I just wonder how much has the real DB Cooper taken from all of you?  You know, money, time spent chasing a ghost?  Its the case that keeps on giving and keeps on taking away at the same time.  Now Bruce has had enough and is " riding off into the sunset".  I admire him for doing that. Its tough to walk away from a passion like this.  But I am sure he will keep one eye peeled on the case unless its ever truly solved.  Good luck Bruce!
 

Offline Darren

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3318 on: November 16, 2022, 12:19:39 PM »
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I just wonder how much has the real DB Cooper taken from all of you?  You know, money, time spent chasing a ghost?  Its the case that keeps on giving and keeps on taking away at the same time. 

Great question. I'm totally going to steal that one!

Personally I'd say DB Cooper has taken about $3500 from me, and countless hours. That includes hosting fees, travel for interviews/CooperCon, and over 40 books. For most I imagine its quite a bit less. In the positive column, I've made $100, got a few free books, a few free trips, and made a lot of friends.
The Cooper Vortex - A Podcast about DB Cooper - Available on most podcast apps
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Offline Old Montana

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3319 on: November 17, 2022, 02:57:48 AM »
Seeing that the jets were scrambled during the Cooper hijacking, makes you wonder why the 9/11 hijackers were not intercepted.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3320 on: November 17, 2022, 04:44:21 AM »
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I just wonder how much has the real DB Cooper taken from all of you?  You know, money, time spent chasing a ghost?  Its the case that keeps on giving and keeps on taking away at the same time. 

Great question. I'm totally going to steal that one!

Personally I'd say DB Cooper has taken about $3500 from me, and countless hours. That includes hosting fees, travel for interviews/CooperCon, and over 40 books. For most I imagine its quite a bit less. In the positive column, I've made $100, got a few free books, a few free trips, and made a lot of friends.

I'd say the friends part is priceless.  But you also had fun doing it.  It sure looks like this one is going to go down with some of the other great unsolved mysteries and the exception is there is nobody that winds up dead in this one.  Of course there is a good part of me that still believes that Richard McCoy was DB Cooper but I certainly cant prove it and there is no real proof out there.  Now I saw another theory, another dead guy that EU thinks was Cooper.  He is still investigating it. The guy does not look like him IMO.  If he was one of the known suspects my money is on McCoy.  But of course he could be someone they have never found.  I highly doubt the real Cooper is alive
 

Offline Jack

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3321 on: November 23, 2022, 07:55:40 PM »
I know that DB Cooper has become somewhat of an iconic personality but we seem to be losing sight of the fact that this man was in fact a criminal. If you hijacked a plane today you would most likely be considered a terrorist.
And to those who believe this was a victimless crime, please wake up. The people who endured those hours with Cooper were to become emotionally traumatized individuals.
The thoughts of a man holding a bomb that could blow up the plane your on in mid flight and kill you would become nightmares for these people for years if not a lifetime.
I watched the clip of Bill Mitchell from this year's CooperCon, when he was describing his time on the plane and when he got to the part where he had to mention the word bomb, you could clearly see he had emotional struggles with reliving those moments.
He and the others, like Flo and Tina and the pilot crew did not know if they would live or die that night. That is something one doesn't really ever get over especially in an era where seeing a therapist was more or less a taboo subject.
It's true that Bill didn't know about the bomb till afterwards, but the emotional results are the same when he did find out because he was right there watching the guy.
Yes this is an interesting case because Cooper has never been publicly identified but I think that all the hoopla people are giving Cooper, (mostly on the other site) like it's DB Cooper day, is a disservice to the emotional trauma his victims endured that night and for every night and year after that.

This is all just my own opinion.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3322 on: November 24, 2022, 12:07:06 PM »
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I know that DB Cooper has become somewhat of an iconic personality but we seem to be losing sight of the fact that this man was in fact a criminal. If you hijacked a plane today you would most likely be considered a terrorist.
And to those who believe this was a victimless crime, please wake up. The people who endured those hours with Cooper were to become emotionally traumatized individuals.
The thoughts of a man holding a bomb that could blow up the plane your on in mid flight and kill you would become nightmares for these people for years if not a lifetime.
I watched the clip of Bill Mitchell from this year's CooperCon, when he was describing his time on the plane and when he got to the part where he had to mention the word bomb, you could clearly see he had emotional struggles with reliving those moments.
He and the others, like Flo and Tina and the pilot crew did not know if they would live or die that night. That is something one doesn't really ever get over especially in an era where seeing a therapist was more or less a taboo subject.
It's true that Bill didn't know about the bomb till afterwards, but the emotional results are the same when he did find out because he was right there watching the guy.
Yes this is an interesting case because Cooper has never been publicly identified but I think that all the hoopla people are giving Cooper, (mostly on the other site) like it's DB Cooper day, is a disservice to the emotional trauma his victims endured that night and for every night and year after that.

This is all just my own opinion.

A lot of us agree with you, Cooper was first and foremost a criminal.
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3323 on: January 20, 2023, 06:17:26 AM »
                Cossey stated that there was a skydiver staying in the loft the night of the skyjacking. This was supposedly the person who handed the front reserve chutes (one of these being the training chute) to law enforcement ?  Does anyone have any idea who this might have been? Did Cossey or law enforcement ever mention a name?  Would this person have been a student?  Was it a common practice for people to stay overnight there?   Was this person ever interviewed by authorities? 
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3324 on: January 22, 2023, 03:18:18 PM »
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                Cossey stated that there was a skydiver staying in the loft the night of the skyjacking. This was supposedly the person who handed the front reserve chutes (one of these being the training chute) to law enforcement ?  Does anyone have any idea who this might have been? Did Cossey or law enforcement ever mention a name?  Would this person have been a student?  Was it a common practice for people to stay overnight there?   Was this person ever interviewed by authorities?

If Cossey is the only source for that, I would question it's validity.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3325 on: January 22, 2023, 09:50:59 PM »
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                Cossey stated that there was a skydiver staying in the loft the night of the skyjacking. This was supposedly the person who handed the front reserve chutes (one of these being the training chute) to law enforcement ?  Does anyone have any idea who this might have been? Did Cossey or law enforcement ever mention a name?  Would this person have been a student?  Was it a common practice for people to stay overnight there?   Was this person ever interviewed by authorities?

I don't know the specific answers to your questions, but I can say that it is not unusual for people to 'reside' at a drop zone. Much as there are ski bums and beach bums, there are dz bums. Many dz's have a version of a tent city, and someone staying in the loft wouldn't be unusual. Not likely a student, unless they came from far away and were staying to go through the training program. More likely a younger regular jumper, perhaps a full-time instructor, or someone who packs the student rigs.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2023, 09:58:45 PM by dudeman17 »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3326 on: January 23, 2023, 03:00:57 AM »
          Not really sure if Cossey is the only source of this? I have seen it mentioned many times, mostly in news articles I think?  Not sure if it was ever mentioned in any of the F.B.I.'s documents?          An instructor staying in the loft would make sense. I take it that the dropzone was open that day for either jumps or training?  Wouldn't it be a possibility that this same person packed the traiining chute ?  Might he have packed something extra inside the training chute?  Personally I don't  normally get into the conspiracy theories, Hager on the other hand, didn't mind jumping into one every now and then. Lol.    I don't believe there is anything to this but thought the possibility should be tossed around.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3327 on: May 22, 2023, 02:57:51 PM »
we had been looking for this. I randomly was looking at fbi file 71 and on page 333 there it was

There is a lot of detail in the test. Way more than the FBI test ...the exact details of how the door and stairs were managed.
"A Pulse Duration Modulation (PCM) magnetic tape system and a photorecorder were used to record performance and calibrated data. Airspeed and altitude were measure using the pilots' production pitot-static system. The aft airstair was instrumented to measure position in degrees from the up and locked position. The static pressure in Section 48 was measured by a pick-up that was located on the LR side of the airplane, outboard of the LH cavity side panels. Airplane cabin pressure and rate of climb were recorded on the photorecorders"

They include pictuires of airstair extended with and without hydraulic power, on pages 340 and 341

Flight Test Summary Report Commercial Transport Model 727-22
Test Item Title "Flight Characteristics with Aft Airstair Down - B"

Prepared by C.M. Clark 5-6-64

What's nice is it gives detail on the dates, documentation, airplane etc. Gives detail on the nose trim with stairs extended. Hydraulics extended the stair to 13.5 degrees.   "No excessive cabin pressure transients were noted with the aft entry door open and the stair extended". "125 knots and flaps at 25 degrees"

Very interesting to see the full report. I ocr'ed the summary and references, but the whole thing is interesting
detail on the document received 6/1/72 from Boeing and written up on 8/3/72 by FBI, has names of people investigated as a result of the document. (some redacted)...it all starts on page 332 of file 71

Interesting they did free-fall test of the stair, and hydraulic assisted. So the stairs did have some hydraulic assist, at least on the airplane in this test?


23 pages
References 5 other documents with details around the test

SUMMARY

This report presents the results of tests conducted on the Model 727 airplane to evaluate the characteristics of the aft airstair when extended inflight and the associated effects on airplane performance and handling.

The airstair was extended both by allowing it to freefall and by utilizing normal hydraulic power. 

These extensions were made with the airplane trimmed for level flight at 125 knots and flaps at 25 degrees.

The airstair extended a nominal 8.5 degrees when allowed to free-fall and it required only approximately one-tenth unit of nose-down trim to compensate for the stalr.

The stair extended a nominal 13.5 degrees with hydraulic power and this caused approximately a three-tenth unit nose-down trim change.

The airplane was also accelerated to Vmo with fleps up and the airstair free-floating.

The airstair was quite stable when it was down and no airplane control problems were experienced.

No excessive cabin pressure transients were noted with the aft entry door open and the stair extended.

The environment near the aft entry door allowed it to be safely opened and the stair retracted at speeds up to 300 knots.

At 300 knots, it was also found that the airstair would not free-fall when unlatched.



 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2023, 03:05:40 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3328 on: May 22, 2023, 03:06:20 PM »
some of the tabulated data

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3329 on: May 22, 2023, 03:34:01 PM »
The timing of the test in 1964 is interesting.

Braden entered Vietnam in 1964 with Special Forces Project Delta.  That's when he was teaching? some HALO


the official us navy seals site has some mention of those days

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[RT] Colorado was also unique because of its team leader, Ted Braden. Among the many larger-than-life characters in the program, Braden was a complete enigma. Formerly an active-duty commissioned officer from the Army Reserve, he had arrived in South Vietnam in late 1965 as part of the second increment of special forces noncommissioned officers slated for the cross-border teams. At times, he was a quiet, almost professorial model, walking around camp in a sweater and puffing on a pipe. At other times, however, Braden displayed uncontrollable rage. “He punched a Vietnamese lieutenant in Kontum,” said Hetrick, “and was banished to Dak To.”

There, troubles followed. After a tense exchange with Lieutenant Colonel Arthur “Bull” Simons, one of the senior SOG planners, Braden was punished by having Colorado’s intended long-term unconventional mission scrubbed. Instead, Colorado would be tasked with reconnaissance missions like any other Shining Brass team.


Despite such outbursts, there was no denying Braden was something of a pioneer. “He had the idea of mixing different ethnic groups in a single team in order to foster competition,” noted Hetrick. Braden also had his team train in native civilian garb. After this led to protests from SOG superiors—who apparently disliked the complete departure from military norms—he then became the first SOG team leader to have his men wear combat fatigues dyed black, reflecting existing Vietcong apparel.

Perhaps the most mysterious aspect about Braden was his close ties to the CIA. “He spent a lot of time with the agency representatives in Saigon,” noted Shattuck, who joined the team in the fall of 1966. “We were told not to ask questions when he was gone for a week at a time.”

Not only did Braden go missing for extended periods, but he would return from his CIA trysts with cutting- edge hardware. “We were the first SOG team to get a Starlight scope (an early-model night-vision device) and a wiretapping kit,” said team member James “J. D.” Bath. Braden also procured a seismometer to test its applicability for use in conjunction with the automatic detonation of Claymore mines.

After a single in-country reconnaissance mission at the behest of the U.S. Marine Corps during the second half of September—which turned up no evidence of an NVA presence—Colorado was ready for its first major outing in early October.

A few days before its scheduled infiltration, the team gathered at the SOG compound in Phu Bai, the town north of Danang. To ease tension, Braden arranged for a tour of the nearby ancient imperial capital of Hue. Halfway to their destination, however, their truck ran into a Vietcong ambush. Careening off the road into a ditch, the team jumped from the vehicle and hugged the rise formed by a railroad track running parallel to the road.


Noticeably cool under pressure, Braden leapt to his feet, carbine in hand. Urging his teammates to fire, he sprinted ahead across a rice paddy toward the source of the ambush in a neighboring village. When it soon became apparent that the enemy weapons had fallen silent and the Vietcong had fled, the other Americans followed. Before reaching the village, however, they came across a body wearing the uniform of the South Vietnamese Regional Forces militia. The corpse was face down in the paddy, a bullet hole at the base of the skull.

When they finally arrived in the village, their team leader was interrogating the locals and made no mention of the dead militiaman. Already, U.S. Marine reinforcements had arrived and brought the situation under hand. Braden, however, apparently was still on an adrenaline high. When the team suggested they return to Phu Bai before nightfall, he waved his weapon and labeled them cowards, then commandeered a bus for Hue.

By the time the team regrouped at Phu Bai, a cloud already was starting to form over the execution of the South Vietnamese militiaman. While it was apparent that Braden would face some kind of disciplinary hearing, it was decided to go ahead with the scheduled mission. For this, they would be equipped with both the Starlight scope and a West German-made wiretap—both firsts for the Shining Brass program. Their target was the extreme western edge of the Demilitarized Zone, just inside the Laos-Vietnam border.

In keeping with plans, Colorado would not be the only team to be deployed in that vicinity. Seven kilometers south of the intended landing zone, a second SOG spike team, Arizona, was gearing for a simultaneous infiltration. Richard Ray—who previously had accompanied Ohio on a single mission—was originally scheduled to accompany Arizona on this outing. Two days earlier, however, he contracted malaria and was convalescing at the SEAL compound on the Son Tra peninsula. Five Vietnamese members of the team also remained behind, giving Team Arizona a light complement of just three Americans and four indigenous commandos.

Late on 2 October, both spike teams headed for the forward SOG launch site at Khe Sanh. The next morning, Colorado departed first aboard South Vietnamese-piloted H-34 choppers. Already thick with tension, the team focused on Braden with added concern. “He was carrying very little ammunition,” recalls Shattuck, “and we feared he had no intention of coming back.”


According to the original plan, they were supposed to install the wiretap, then pull back three kilometers and wait for a B-52 bomber strike before recovering the tapes. After further consideration, however, the planners felt it was not worth the risk of detection to have the team move three kilometers. Revising their plan, then, the B-52 strike went in first, immediately followed by the team’s insertion.

Once they landed, the situation intensified. In short order, Colorado located a suitable telephone cable running along the slope overlooking the Houei Nam Se River from the north. The entire valley, they found, was crawling with North Vietnamese troops, who had carved steps into both slopes and even had a simple ferry shuttling supplies across the river.

The heavy NVA presence extended all the way to Arizona’s area of operations, this entire pocket of Laos essentially having been annexed and treated as territorial North Vietnam since December 1958. Almost as soon as this second team landed to the south, it was in deep trouble. “We made contact with the NVA next to the landing zone,” said ethnic Chinese team member Tran Hung Quang. Pleas from the U.S. radioman came over the airwaves, followed by an eerie silence. One member managed to escape and return to friendly lines. Tran and one other ethnic Chinese were captured the following morning; the remainder of the team, including the three Green Berets, were listed as missing and presumed dead.

Colorado was more fortunate. Remaining sheltered in a bomb crater near the summit of the slope, the team waited patiently until sundown. Intending to use their Starlight scope, they unpacked the device and aimed it along the river. To their disappointment, however, the scope refused to work. Not wanting to be burdened with broken gear, Braden buried the night vision device on the spot. “We later caught hell for not bringing it home,” said Bath.

The team had better luck with the wiretap, which it managed to install without complications. Waiting nearby for the tapes to record several hours of telephone traffic, Colorado then recovered the device and was successfully exfiltrated by chopper.