Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 319382 times)

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3060 on: July 13, 2021, 10:27:25 AM »
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Help out here, Kari. Please.

What detective? Name? Town?

Anything we can follow-up on and corroborate?

As for not getting back your photograph from the FBI, welcome to the club. The Bureau fucks with anyone and everyone. It's their nature. The Bigger Question is WHY you gave them your only copy of a very significant piece of evidence. What the hell were you thinking?

Also, Kari, your stream-of-consciousness writing is tough to read, especially for guys like me with 71-year-old eye balls. Perhaps using Word to help clean up your text would be helpful, or install the free Grammarly processing app.

Regardless, thanks for posting here, and welcome to DB Cooper World.
Bruce.  Hope you are safe out there?  Lots of reports of mass fires from the heat wave?  Stay safe
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3061 on: July 13, 2021, 03:13:56 PM »
Fortunately, DF, we in this part of Cooper Country are the recipients of cool, onshore maritime winds, which are blowing British Columbian smoke eastwards towards the rest of Canada. Oregonian and Californian smoke is likewise being blown elsewhere.

Thank Gawd.

At last report, BC has 300 forest fires burning, while northern Cali has started its fire season with three major fires. SoCal also has a fair number of fires burning.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3062 on: July 13, 2021, 05:46:39 PM »
Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3063 on: July 13, 2021, 08:22:03 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

You're right.  We don't.  I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone.  Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :) 

Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old.  Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine.  This is the only "control" that I've heard of.  This could be a good topic for someone to research.  What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope?  Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers?  I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?

The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence?  I agree that having "control" items might be helpful.  Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like.  As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that.  Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same?  Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.

The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think).  I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3064 on: July 13, 2021, 09:10:22 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

You're right.  We don't.  I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone.  Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :) 

Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old.  Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine.  This is the only "control" that I've heard of.  This could be a good topic for someone to research.  What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope?  Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers?  I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?

The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence?  I agree that having "control" items might be helpful.  Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like.  As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that.  Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same?  Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.

The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think).  I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.

Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.

But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?

My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3065 on: July 13, 2021, 10:02:03 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

You're right.  We don't.  I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone.  Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :) 

Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old.  Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine.  This is the only "control" that I've heard of.  This could be a good topic for someone to research.  What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope?  Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers?  I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?

The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence?  I agree that having "control" items might be helpful.  Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like.  As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that.  Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same?  Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.

The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think).  I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.

Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.

But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?

My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.

I'm not familiar enough with the microscopes used by Tom to know how difficult it is to test other items, or how costly.  I seem to remember talking to Tom once and he said if one of us could get clothing from the time period or a tie, he would look at it.  Maybe it is as simple as putting the clothing under the scope and getting a report.

The only thing I can think of that people put away in a box and save are military uniforms.  Those come off at a certain time and get hung up or boxed up.  Finding clothes from 1971, especially a tie, may be tough.  But I'd love to see what something looks like from a metals shop from today.  I think Nicky did some looking at welding.  Shutter is into all of that stuff for a career I think. He may know.  I've welded and done some basic metal fabrication and remember all the shavings.  Maybe a high school shop teacher might have something to test.

I think I sent an email to McCrone a while back, but did not hear back.  They probably have data on samples.  If they can test a Rembrant from the Gardner Museum theft, I imagine they have some control data.

I think Cooper was a blue collar worker who had some general aviation knowledge gained in the military or maybe in his job as an aviation mechanic or general laborer at the airport, but was not an aviation expert.  I think he was probably a generally normal and agreeable type of guy, smarter than the average bear, but maybe just an average performer.  Not an over achiever.   Obviously opinions of mine, and not fact. 
 

Online georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3066 on: July 13, 2021, 11:49:03 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

You're right.  We don't.  I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone.  Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :) 

Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old.  Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine.  This is the only "control" that I've heard of.  This could be a good topic for someone to research.  What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope?  Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers?  I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?

The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence?  I agree that having "control" items might be helpful.  Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like.  As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that.  Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same?  Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.

The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think).  I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.

Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.

But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?

My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.

as I posted months ago ... the FBI processed two suspects that worked in the nuclear industry. But, until Tom did his analysis no one was aware the tie even sported these rare elements. Had the FBI been aware of Tom's analysis years ago it might have changed their search and gone somewhere .... fast? 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 11:50:27 PM by georger »
 

Online georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3067 on: July 13, 2021, 11:55:20 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

You're right.  We don't.  I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone.  Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :) 

Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old.  Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine.  This is the only "control" that I've heard of.  This could be a good topic for someone to research.  What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope?  Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers?  I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?

The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence?  I agree that having "control" items might be helpful.  Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like.  As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that.  Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same?  Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.

The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think).  I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.

Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.

But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?

My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.

I'm not familiar enough with the microscopes used by Tom to know how difficult it is to test other items, or how costly.  I seem to remember talking to Tom once and he said if one of us could get clothing from the time period or a tie, he would look at it.  Maybe it is as simple as putting the clothing under the scope and getting a report.

The only thing I can think of that people put away in a box and save are military uniforms.  Those come off at a certain time and get hung up or boxed up.  Finding clothes from 1971, especially a tie, may be tough.  But I'd love to see what something looks like from a metals shop from today.  I think Nicky did some looking at welding.  Shutter is into all of that stuff for a career I think. He may know.  I've welded and done some basic metal fabrication and remember all the shavings.  Maybe a high school shop teacher might have something to test.

I think I sent an email to McCrone a while back, but did not hear back.  They probably have data on samples.  If they can test a Rembrant from the Gardner Museum theft, I imagine they have some control data.

I think Cooper was a blue collar worker who had some general aviation knowledge gained in the military or maybe in his job as an aviation mechanic or general laborer at the airport, but was not an aviation expert.  I think he was probably a generally normal and agreeable type of guy, smarter than the average bear, but maybe just an average performer.  Not an over achiever.   Obviously opinions of mine, and not fact.

Go to Tom's site and review how Tom found the particles with his equipment. Electron spectroscopy was central to this work. That is not something a common light microscope can do. ... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 12:09:51 AM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3068 on: July 14, 2021, 12:35:26 AM »
I have begun going through the list of particles on the tie and finding uses and applications for each to see if I can identify any connections beyond the ones we already have.

I am not done, but so far there seems to be some interesting overlaps that to my knowledge have been previously unidentified. Once, I double check my work, I will share it and allow everyone to review it.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3069 on: July 14, 2021, 11:22:35 AM »
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Fortunately, DF, we in this part of Cooper Country are the recipients of cool, onshore maritime winds, which are blowing British Columbian smoke eastwards towards the rest of Canada. Oregonian and Californian smoke is likewise being blown elsewhere.

Thank Gawd.

At last report, BC has 300 forest fires burning, while northern Cali has started its fire season with three major fires. SoCal also has a fair number of fires burning.
I just learned a bit more about Mt Ranier via David Paulides YouTube report.  I guess 2200 years since last eruption?  I hope it stays that way.  So Mt Ranier is in WA and you are actually in Oregon correct?  Sounds like quite a place.  5 rivers and 14,000 feet.  I have never been to the area, Seattle or Portland included.  SF would be the closest I have been.   So I guess there have been a good share of people that have gone missing in Mt Ranier region.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3070 on: July 14, 2021, 06:32:35 PM »
Yo, DB, I live 30 miles due west of Mount Rainier. Hence, I live in WA. In fact, I'm 120 miles north of the Columbia River, which is the borderline between WA and OR.

Further, I invite you to check out my writings on Cooper at the Mountain News-WA. Note: this site is NOT The Mountain News-OR!

Smile.

Lastly, "Cooper Country," (CC) which I reference here often is the region central to Norjak - Sea-Tac airport, Thun Field, Castle Rock and Silver Lake (placard finding site), Ariel, Amboy, Heisson, Battleground, Woodland, T-Bar, and Vancouver - and are all in Washington State. Only PDX is in Oregon.

Lastly, lastly, when you visit, such as to attend CC21, please know that "Oregon" is pronounced as Or-e-gun locally, whereas everywhere else, like New York, it is pronounced "Or-e-gone." We in CC tend to snicker when we hear the out-of-towners mis-pronounce the state. I know it's rude, but it's fun....
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3071 on: July 14, 2021, 08:05:17 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

A control? Interesting thought. If only someone had asked that and NOT been ridiculed for it by the resident troll...

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Tom Kaye showed *the tie* *might* have been exposed to its odd collection of particles in an environment *like* Tek. (I think Kaye focused on Tek because it was in the PacNW, however there's an entire world filled with chemical/CRT factories).

Does anybody know if there was a "control tie" tested? Like getting an old tie from a garage sale and testing it alongside the Cooper tie for particles of...anything? Or perhaps cloth of any kind that was stored in the same environment to check for similarities?

No. No real need to. Unless you want to compare it with a tie from ??  Chernobyl?
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3072 on: July 14, 2021, 09:01:11 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

A control? Interesting thought. If only someone had asked that and NOT been ridiculed for it by the resident troll...

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Tom Kaye showed *the tie* *might* have been exposed to its odd collection of particles in an environment *like* Tek. (I think Kaye focused on Tek because it was in the PacNW, however there's an entire world filled with chemical/CRT factories).

Does anybody know if there was a "control tie" tested? Like getting an old tie from a garage sale and testing it alongside the Cooper tie for particles of...anything? Or perhaps cloth of any kind that was stored in the same environment to check for similarities?

No. No real need to. Unless you want to compare it with a tie from ??  Chernobyl?

Unsurelock: I've found that many of us have similar ideas, and although there is some disagreement on here, most of us seem to have the same end goal in mind, which is to find DB Cooper.  I agree with your old comment on finding a tie at a yard sale. I definitely don't want to claim that I'm the first or even the second person to consider testing an old tie or clothing.  Anyhow, that would be a good way to get some old clothes to test. 
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3073 on: July 14, 2021, 09:20:58 PM »
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…

How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?

In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?

A control? Interesting thought. If only someone had asked that and NOT been ridiculed for it by the resident troll...

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Tom Kaye showed *the tie* *might* have been exposed to its odd collection of particles in an environment *like* Tek. (I think Kaye focused on Tek because it was in the PacNW, however there's an entire world filled with chemical/CRT factories).

Does anybody know if there was a "control tie" tested? Like getting an old tie from a garage sale and testing it alongside the Cooper tie for particles of...anything? Or perhaps cloth of any kind that was stored in the same environment to check for similarities?

No. No real need to. Unless you want to compare it with a tie from ??  Chernobyl?

Unsurelock: I've found that many of us have similar ideas, and although there is some disagreement on here, most of us seem to have the same end goal in mind, which is to find DB Cooper.  I agree with your old comment on finding a tie at a yard sale. I definitely don't want to claim that I'm the first or even the second person to consider testing an old tie or clothing.  Anyhow, that would be a good way to get some old clothes to test.

Hey, man. Nothing of the sort. Just commenting on how some people choose to ridicule ideas they haven't caught up to yet.

Fully aware others have looked into this first.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3074 on: August 01, 2021, 02:38:20 PM »
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Yo, DB, I live 30 miles due west of Mount Rainier. Hence, I live in WA. In fact, I'm 120 miles north of the Columbia River, which is the borderline between WA and OR.

Further, I invite you to check out my writings on Cooper at the Mountain News-WA. Note: this site is NOT The Mountain News-OR!

Smile.

Lastly, "Cooper Country," (CC) which I reference here often is the region central to Norjak - Sea-Tac airport, Thun Field, Castle Rock and Silver Lake (placard finding site), Ariel, Amboy, Heisson, Battleground, Woodland, T-Bar, and Vancouver - and are all in Washington State. Only PDX is in Oregon.

Lastly, lastly, when you visit, such as to attend CC21, please know that "Oregon" is pronounced as Or-e-gun locally, whereas everywhere else, like New York, it is pronounced "Or-e-gone." We in CC tend to snicker when we hear the out-of-towners mis-pronounce the state. I know it's rude, but it's fun....
I just watched the episode on this case on Unsolved Mysteries with the late Robert Stack.  Did you see that one?  Anyway, Tina was not on it.  But Florence Shaffner was.  And she was very very cooperative on that show.  Obviously things changed since that?  She was on and not Tina?  That to me is strange too.