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81
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by EU on January 17, 2020, 10:37:28 AM »
Other than the trolling and snarkiness taking place here I find the discussion regarding Tena Bar to be fun and interesting.

Now, where to start...

Let me start by stating that none of us gets to choose or decide the flight path that 305 flew as it traveled south over southwestern Washington. The true flight path is the true flight path regardless of what any of us say. This is worth keeping in mind.

Now, that said, I view my role as a researcher of the evidence and letting it speak to the truth of the flight path. This involves shutting the hell up and listening. This requires thinking.

Yes, indeed, I have theories, I put them out there and understand that history will judge me well. After all, I am intellectually honest and have only the truth as my agenda.

Next subject: I'm trying to understand why it is relevant that Captain Scott believed that DBC died in or around Lake Merwin strung up in some tree. After all, this cannot be true. Period.

How do I know this cannot be true? Well, because of the money find at Tena Bar. The money did not have little money legs with a little money shovel and hike to Tena Bar to hideout for 8 years. Right?

Nonetheless, when Captain Scott tells Himmelsbach that he believes they flew over Woodland, well that is interesting. And it is notable. But it proves nothing.

On the other hand, what does prove something is the placard find, the money find, and, I believe, the fiberglass skirt find. Science and the Laws of Physics are never wrong. These pieces of evidence speak to the truth whether we're willing to listen or not.

In my mind, these pieces of evidence speak to an FBI Flight Path that is flawed in at least a few areas. Additionally, they appear to validate the Western Flight Path.

Cheers!
82
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by georger on January 17, 2020, 05:17:20 AM »
R99 shuffles and dodges then throws his dice hoping people wont notice or care: "2.  Why did Captain Scott reportedly tell his daughter that the flight path that was publicly announced (presumably the so-called FBI flight path) was all wrong?"

Was all wrong !!!?

Bullshit. Pure boilerpate using Scott's daughter. Scott's daughter did not say: 'Was all wrong", as R99 is saying she said!

R99's only salvation in this maneuver is his use of the word "reportedly tell his daughter ". R99 covers his xxx with that caveat! But, he then goes on to smear on more grease by adding: " flight path that was publicly announced (presumably the so-called FBI flight path)". This sounds like something straight out of the Robert Blevins Handbook! Weave and dodge. Reclamation with a little lie. Nobody will notice or care. 

When this came up after Ulis first posted it, I posted that Scott himself and his wife had given different accounts. The board stayed silent. Neither R99 or Ulis replied or commented. NO WONDER!

How low and politically managed can it get here! ? Just to score a point? Just to make a new and revision version of the former testimony. And who is right and who is wrong. The answer is quite clear!

Robert Nicholson and Eric Ulis are right ..... and nothing and nobody else matters!

WE WILL OBEY!  :rofl:   

In a pig's eye we will obey! This is intentional misrepresentation by the guy who wants the world to adopt his so-called West Path and other claims. His faux lessons in physics and other matters. The smartest two guys in the room. Electioneering at the DBCooper Forum ? Gag me with a John Deere twelve row planter.   
83
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by georger on January 17, 2020, 02:50:07 AM »
You asked the following: Try these answers!

I've got a few good questions:

1.  If Tosaw was on such good terms with Rataczak, I presume that they may have discussed the airliner's flight path.  At least that would seem to be logical.  So if the so-called FBI flight path is correct, why was Tosaw so fixated on Tina Bar?  Did Rataczak tell Tosaw that the airliner basically flew right down the middle of the Columbia River in the Tina Bar area?

I dont know what R told Tosaw about the flight path. Ask Galen Cook. Ask Bruce Smith, Cook's friend! Tosaw said he was interested in Tina Bar and the area around it because that's where Cooper money was found. Tosaw also said he thought Cooper had dropped into the Columbia and died close to Tina Bar. He said that he thought the money had come up during the dredging project in '74 near Tina Bar. That is why he said he was dragging that area. You have Tosaw's book. You tell us! 

2.  Why did Captain Scott reportedly tell his daughter that the flight path that was publicly announced (presumably the so-called FBI flight path) was all wrong?

Scott's wife is on record as saying Scott told her Cooper dropped and was probably dead near Merwin lake. Scott told an audience the same thing. I have no idea what Scott told his daughter Ulis featured her at his Cooper-Con to the exclusion of Scott and his wife's testimony. I guess you and Ulis are saying the daughter Trumps the wife and Scott himself? How in hell would I or anyone else know? You and Ulis are the two with all these claims - why present the daughter's recollection without present the wife's and Scott own pubished testimony? Seems selective and political to me, but you and Ulis are very political. Ulis has run for public office many times, in several States, and failed.

3.  Mount St. Helens blew its top about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.  Most of the ash from Mount St. Helens landed in the Columbia River watershed upstream from the Bonneville Dam which is just east of Portland.  As the ash came down the Columbia River, it damaged the generators at the Bonneville Dam and clogged up the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  Shipping was stopped and the shipping channel had to be dredged to remove the ash.  So what was Tosaw's expecting to find a few years after the money had been found and the shipping channel dredged?

You mean a few years after the money find and Mt St Helens. The two are consecutive. By 'a few years after' I guess you mean 1982? As I have previously stated Tosaw's first search was "in the trees" on land, not in the water per se. Read the 1982 article I posted. You need to start reading what people and documents say and stop making up your own versions of things. In addition I already told you to my knowledge Tosaw never knew you or addressed any of your theories. Tosaw never read Dropzone so far as I know. In one conversation I had with him he told me he didn't know what Dropzone was. I never asked him if he knew you or your theories, but I am guessing he didn't.   

4.  The money was found at Tina Bar outside the nominal river level.  If the money had been in the river at its nominal level, how did it get up on the bank?  As Tom Kaye has demonstrated using actual currency, when placed in a stream the first thing a packet of bills does is flare at the ends and then sinks to the bottom where it stays.  This means that the money was moving DOWN towards sea level and not UP from sea level when it came to rest at Tina Bar.  This also means that that it probably arrived at Tina Bar during a high water event shortly after the hijacking.

Your wordy complex proposal is a theory of sorts and nothing more. Can you suggest any tests, like isotopic tests, that could validate your socalled theory vs. other theories? Mr. Tosaw believed in the dredging theory. 


Georger, I eagerly await your explanations to the above. 

Snarky is as snarky does. I dont see that your snarky Inquisition illuminates the money problem one bit.
84
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by Robert99 on January 17, 2020, 12:35:59 AM »
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I found some interesting info while querying old Columbia River gillnetters. They DID have a lot of problems with sunken logs and stumps ruining their nets and DID clear prime drift areas annually. They used "snag nets" (small nets designed to hang up on bottom snags) to locate snags to which barge-based divers were then directed to remove.

Using this info I located this article: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Doubtful that Cooper would have been found this way. Underwater visibility was very poor (often only several inches) and divers went directly to snags found with snag nets. A snag net couldn't lift a big stump or log but probably could have raised a body.

377

wow! Thank you very much. I wish we were closer to work on this together ... over a beer and lunch. Your remarks are identical to the remarks of commercial fishermen I have interviewed. One fisherman who encountered and talked to Tosaw back in the day, told me Tosaw was 'green and naive' and he basically didn't know what he was doing ore talking about. People watched Tosaw working, talked to Tosaw and some of the people working with him ... "as long as he paid me I didn't argue with him" is one comment. In the final analysis, he found nothing related to Cooper. I guess that's the only conclusion one can come to.

I get the impression that Tosaw walked blind into a situation where a lot of professionals had been working for years, he basically ignored people's advice, and forged ahead ........ years after the Ingram find and other searches had already been conducted by the FBI and others! He is still trying in 2005-08!

It's also interesting to me (and maybe important) that his very first search is on ground - in the trees - in the flight path area he thinks he has ... not IN the river. He starts with the easy/obvious and moves to the difficult, the river itself. But again he spends years rolling this out ...

In the meantime immediately following the FBI leaving at Tina Bar, other people get rolling - searching. Tosaw wont start for another 2-3 years. And the rest of the actual story is: the FBI was well aware of what people were doing and where, and watching, with a network established. The search for Cooper artifacts was happening, without Tosaw. The FBI was not sitting idly by .... that's the untold story that matters.

Thanks! If you get any more good info or ideas please contact me. (Im back on the air!)

           

I've got a few good questions:

1.  If Tosaw was on such good terms with Rataczak, I presume that they may have discussed the airliner's flight path.  At least that would seem to be logical.  So if the so-called FBI flight path is correct, why was Tosaw so fixated on Tina Bar?  Did Rataczak tell Tosaw that the airliner basically flew right down the middle of the Columbia River in the Tina Bar area?

2.  Why did Captain Scott reportedly tell his daughter that the flight path that was publicly announced (presumably the so-called FBI flight path) was all wrong?

3.  Mount St. Helens blew its top about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.  Most of the ash from Mount St. Helens landed in the Columbia River watershed upstream from the Bonneville Dam which is just east of Portland.  As the ash came down the Columbia River, it damaged the generators at the Bonneville Dam and clogged up the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  Shipping was stopped and the shipping channel had to be dredged to remove the ash.  So what was Tosaw's expecting to find a few years after the money had been found and the shipping channel dredged?

4.  The money was found at Tina Bar outside the nominal river level.  If the money had been in the river at its nominal level, how did it get up on the bank?  As Tom Kaye has demonstrated using actual currency, when placed in a stream the first thing a packet of bills does is flare at the ends and then sinks to the bottom where it stays.  This means that the money was moving DOWN towards sea level and not UP from sea level when it came to rest at Tina Bar.  This also means that that it probably arrived at Tina Bar during a high water event shortly after the hijacking.

Georger, I eagerly await your explanations to the above.

1/2. I have no complete understanding of Tosaw's relationship with Rataczak. Does Rataczak even understand it? I'm not sure Galen Cook even knows but he might have some ideas about the relationship since he knew Tosaw personally.
3. What Tosaw expected to find or announced he was looking for on specific dates, will be covered in news interviews Tosaw gave about those expeditions. Stay tuned.
4. Tosaw did not know Tom Kaye and never communicated with Tom about Yom's findings, so far as I know . . . or with you about your theories. Tosaw died in 2009. Did you ever communicate with Tosaw? 

I feel safe in saying that nothing either you or Kaye has ever done or said, played any role in Tosaw's thinking or decisions. Early in his searches he was on record as supporting the dredging theory - that was part of his logic for raking the bottom of the river in certain areas including between the mile markers where Tina Bar dredging materials came from.. As the 1988 article previously posted indicates, which 377 and I exchanged remarks about, Tosaw shifted his strategy focusing more on wing dam searches vs bottom raking, in 1988. That change in strategy brought the Rainey family on board and the discovery of a flare chute buried in mud at one wing dam, in November 1988.

As some point I plan to post a nautical chart identifying the areas searched by Tosaw and others, over the years.

Why would Tosaw need to communicate with either Tom Kaye or myself?  Tosaw should have known, or could have easily discovered, what I mentioned.

If I remember correctly, you have previously represented yourself as something of a physicist in one of your incarnations.  Thus, you should be able to understand why water runs down hill.  It is just moving from a high energy state to a lower energy state.  Do you understand where the change in energy goes?   
85
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by Robert99 on January 16, 2020, 11:41:59 PM »
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I found some interesting info while querying old Columbia River gillnetters. They DID have a lot of problems with sunken logs and stumps ruining their nets and DID clear prime drift areas annually. They used "snag nets" (small nets designed to hang up on bottom snags) to locate snags to which barge-based divers were then directed to remove.

Using this info I located this article: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Doubtful that Cooper would have been found this way. Underwater visibility was very poor (often only several inches) and divers went directly to snags found with snag nets. A snag net couldn't lift a big stump or log but probably could have raised a body.

377

wow! Thank you very much. I wish we were closer to work on this together ... over a beer and lunch. Your remarks are identical to the remarks of commercial fishermen I have interviewed. One fisherman who encountered and talked to Tosaw back in the day, told me Tosaw was 'green and naive' and he basically didn't know what he was doing ore talking about. People watched Tosaw working, talked to Tosaw and some of the people working with him ... "as long as he paid me I didn't argue with him" is one comment. In the final analysis, he found nothing related to Cooper. I guess that's the only conclusion one can come to.

I get the impression that Tosaw walked blind into a situation where a lot of professionals had been working for years, he basically ignored people's advice, and forged ahead ........ years after the Ingram find and other searches had already been conducted by the FBI and others! He is still trying in 2005-08!

It's also interesting to me (and maybe important) that his very first search is on ground - in the trees - in the flight path area he thinks he has ... not IN the river. He starts with the easy/obvious and moves to the difficult, the river itself. But again he spends years rolling this out ...

In the meantime immediately following the FBI leaving at Tina Bar, other people get rolling - searching. Tosaw wont start for another 2-3 years. And the rest of the actual story is: the FBI was well aware of what people were doing and where, and watching, with a network established. The search for Cooper artifacts was happening, without Tosaw. The FBI was not sitting idly by .... that's the untold story that matters.

Thanks! If you get any more good info or ideas please contact me. (Im back on the air!)

           

I've got a few good questions:

1.  If Tosaw was on such good terms with Rataczak, I presume that they may have discussed the airliner's flight path.  At least that would seem to be logical.  So if the so-called FBI flight path is correct, why was Tosaw so fixated on Tina Bar?  Did Rataczak tell Tosaw that the airliner basically flew right down the middle of the Columbia River in the Tina Bar area?

2.  Why did Captain Scott reportedly tell his daughter that the flight path that was publicly announced (presumably the so-called FBI flight path) was all wrong?

3.  Mount St. Helens blew its top about three months after the money was found at Tina Bar in February 1980.  Most of the ash from Mount St. Helens landed in the Columbia River watershed upstream from the Bonneville Dam which is just east of Portland.  As the ash came down the Columbia River, it damaged the generators at the Bonneville Dam and clogged up the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific Ocean.  Shipping was stopped and the shipping channel had to be dredged to remove the ash.  So what was Tosaw's expecting to find a few years after the money had been found and the shipping channel dredged?

4.  The money was found at Tina Bar outside the nominal river level.  If the money had been in the river at its nominal level, how did it get up on the bank?  As Tom Kaye has demonstrated using actual currency, when placed in a stream the first thing a packet of bills does is flare at the ends and then sinks to the bottom where it stays.  This means that the money was moving DOWN towards sea level and not UP from sea level when it came to rest at Tina Bar.  This also means that that it probably arrived at Tina Bar during a high water event shortly after the hijacking.

Georger, I eagerly await your explanations to the above. 
86
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by georger on January 16, 2020, 03:45:53 PM »
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I found some interesting info while querying old Columbia River gillnetters. They DID have a lot of problems with sunken logs and stumps ruining their nets and DID clear prime drift areas annually. They used "snag nets" (small nets designed to hang up on bottom snags) to locate snags to which barge-based divers were then directed to remove.

Using this info I located this article: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Doubtful that Cooper would have been found this way. Underwater visibility was very poor (often only several inches) and divers went directly to snags found with snag nets. A snag net couldn't lift a big stump or log but probably could have raised a body.

377

wow! Thank you very much. I wish we were closer to work on this together ... over a beer and lunch. Your remarks are identical to the remarks of commercial fishermen I have interviewed. One fisherman who encountered and talked to Tosaw back in the day, told me Tosaw was 'green and naive' and he basically didn't know what he was doing ore talking about. People watched Tosaw working, talked to Tosaw and some of the people working with him ... "as long as he paid me I didn't argue with him" is one comment. In the final analysis, he found nothing related to Cooper. I guess that's the only conclusion one can come to.

I get the impression that Tosaw walked blind into a situation where a lot of professionals had been working for years, he basically ignored people's advice, and forged ahead ........ years after the Ingram find and other searches had already been conducted by the FBI and others! He is still trying in 2005-08!

It's also interesting to me (and maybe important) that his very first search is on ground - in the trees - in the flight path area he thinks he has ... not IN the river. He starts with the easy/obvious and moves to the difficult, the river itself. But again he spends years rolling this out ...

In the meantime immediately following the FBI leaving at Tina Bar, other people get rolling - searching. Tosaw wont start for another 2-3 years. And the rest of the actual story is: the FBI was well aware of what people were doing and where, and watching, with a network established. The search for Cooper artifacts was happening, without Tosaw. The FBI was not sitting idly by .... that's the untold story that matters.

Thanks! If you get any more good info or ideas please contact me. (Im back on the air!)

             
87
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by 377 on January 16, 2020, 03:19:30 PM »
I found some interesting info while querying old Columbia River gillnetters. They DID have a lot of problems with sunken logs and stumps ruining their nets and DID clear prime drift areas annually. They used "snag nets" (small nets designed to hang up on bottom snags) to locate snags to which barge-based divers were then directed to remove.

Using this info I located this article: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Doubtful that Cooper would have been found this way. Underwater visibility was very poor (often only several inches) and divers went directly to snags found with snag nets. A snag net couldn't lift a big stump or log but probably could have raised a body.

377
88
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by georger on January 16, 2020, 02:15:08 PM »
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Tosaw's law practice didn't involve courtroom work. His specialty was finding missing persons, often lost heirs. He had a good reputation in the legal profession for delivering results.

I wasn't aware that he was involved in these other aviation mysteries. but it fits.

Sure wish I had known him personally. With my commercial fishing experience and connections I sure could have helped him improve the design of his dragged snagging gear.

377

Im sure you could have. Tell me what you think of his attached claims in this article?

I think Tosaw picked up a lot of ideas for books and projects at the Writer's Workshop at Iowa City. Finding and writing about the planes and lives of lost WWII war heroes is right out of that post-WWII genre at the Workshop - likewise people's fascination with Einstein's personal history at the Writer's Workshop: see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login   One standing issue at the time was whether Einstein's wife, Mileva Maric, had contributed to or even authored some of Einstein's work. Family letters and Einstein's work papers were being examined to look for clues. Tosaw compares himself to Albert Einstein searching for Relativity in three separate interviews stretched out over time. The comparison is personal with Tosaw, but not even remotely valid historically.

Tell me what you think about Tosaw's comment about fishing practices vs Cooper artifacts in the Columbia ?   Keep track of the fact Tosaw is making these remarks in 1988, announcing a shift in his search strategy - eight years! after the Ingram find in 1980. A lot of water has passed 'under the bridge' since 1980 - Tosaw is in catch up mode! He will continue searching clear into the 2000s, Cook joins him in 2005, ... Tosaw dies in 2009 and wills $5000 to Bill Rataczak.
89
DB Cooper / Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Last post by 377 on January 16, 2020, 01:03:10 PM »
Tosaw's law practice didn't involve courtroom work. His specialty was finding missing persons, often lost heirs. He had a good reputation in the legal profession for delivering results.

I wasn't aware that he was involved in these other aviation mysteries. but it fits.

Sure wish I had known him personally. With my commercial fishing experience and connections I sure could have helped him improve the design of his dragged snagging gear.

377
90
DB Cooper / Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Last post by Bruce A. Smith on January 15, 2020, 06:51:56 PM »
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Anyway... back to DB Cooper. The folks at Minnow Productions in the UK have just told me that their four-hour mega epic on Danny Boy will be airing on HBO in July, and then the BBC shortly thereafter. It features EVERYBODY! It'll be fun to see Jo Weber in her full glory, along with Bobby B, Barb and the gang at Thun Field - in particular the Formans. Not sure about Wolfie or Petey, though.

Jo Weber... *Sigh*

Oy, Marty. C'mon. Ol' Jo is part of our world.... annoying, cruel, maddening, offensive and mind-numbing - YES. But oh, so, colorful.

One warning: don't let her drive when y'all go out for coffee. Just sayin'.

That said, I do like Jo. Oddly, though, I often want to strangle her, but for different reasons at different times. I find her quite pleasant and enjoyable in person, but she is insufferable with wait staff in restaurants. Then I want to leap across the table and strangle her.

But over the phone when she is rambling on for an hour or two, I simply want to slip a bag over her head and walk away. I know that's not very enlightened for a mystical fellow like me, so I am seeking to perfect my abilities of politely ending conversations before anything felonious occurs that might require a phone call to 377...

... as my supervisor at St. Peter's Hospital in Olympia once told me: "Bruce, you need to meditate more."

As you say, Marty, *Sigh.*
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