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21
DB Cooper / Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Last post by georger on December 13, 2019, 03:58:29 PM »
NASA sky pollution surveys - Portland vs Seattle 1970. The V23 corridor between the two cities is very dark. With dark adaptation Portland would stand out ahead to pilots at 10k ft. no matter the weather. To a photometer Portland would register off scale! There is no cloud cover known on Earth that could obscure sky glow from these cities in 1970-71. Red (+5) is as high as the scale goes in 1950-75. 
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DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by georger on December 13, 2019, 03:11:52 PM »
Here we go again - more Flyjack claims - all relying on Tosaw's book!

Has it ever occurred to Flyjack that Tosaw 'made stuff up'?   Crew interviews conflict with Tosaw accounts! FBI agents strongly objected to Tosaw's claims and accounts and said "Tosaw is making things up." Author Musika Farnsworth ran squarely into this issue when she tried to reconcile Tosaw claims with FBI agents accounts. Farnsworth finally interviewed Himmelsbach at length and H told Muskia that inspite of what she thought about the FBI or Himmelsbach personally, that Tosaw literally made things up for his book - and H told Farnsworth 'There is literally nothing in the FBI's interviews of people that supports most of the claims Tosaw is attributing to witnesses, and that comes up specifically in the case of Tosaw's socalled interview of Tina Mucklow whens he was in the convent.'

H went on to explain that Tosaw's socalled interview of Mucklow was short, cryptic, and interrupted by The Mother Superior who had finally granted Tosaw permission for a brief interview with Mucklow! Tosaw never had a free flowing lengthy personal interview with Mucklow, over the convent telephone! Tina's Mother Superior was on the line the whole time, according to Himmelsbach, and she finally cut Tosaw's socalled interview with Mucklow short! From this, Tosaw then goes and inserts all kinds of claims and attributions to Mucklow, in his book!

H also said that after Tosaw's book came out an agent was allowed to interview Tina and his report was that Tina was unsettled and mystified about some of Tosaw's claims attributed to her. (There should be a 302 about that!)

So, I caution Flyjack to take Tosaw's claims in his book with a grain of salt. Many of his claims are totally undocumented and probably made up!

Flyjack says today:

"Also from Tosaw’s book.. 
Cooper had 2 drinks.
Money in packets of $2000 strapped in PAPER BANDS and some had additional rubber bands, corroborates Tina, H and Bank letter to FBI..
Cooper offered 2 packets of money to stews, other than Tina.
Cooper demanded flaps down but flight ops was calculating range and they went back and asked Cooper, he then said 15 degrees. 
Soderlind suggested SF or LA, and a second stop in Yuma.. and “Cooper was advised that it wasn’t necessary for the plane to stop anywhere in the US, but in any event he did not want to stop at either SF or LA because those cities were too big.” Reno was suggested by Soderlind and Cooper agreed."

Be advised that Tosaw "made a lot of stuff up" according to the FBI. When Flyjack mixes Tosaw claims with FBI 302s and other sources, the conclusions Fkyjack is claiming may be factually false. It's as simple as that.

Carr talked to the bank employ that prepared the bundles of money for delivery to SeaTac and no paper straps were involved. That is a simple fact if you believe the bank employee who did the actual assembling of the money over Tosaw's undocumented account, for his book!

Richard Tosaw told a cub reporter at the Univ of Iowa Daily Iowan in February of 1980 shortly after Cooper money had been found: " I have retired. I am interested in DB Cooper case. Im going to write a book about the Cooper case now in addition to my work on Nile Kinnick." The excavation of Tina Bar wasn't even finished and Tosaw is already advising the press: 'I have retired. I am interested in DB Cooper case and Im going to write a book about the Cooper case.' ! Tosaw was going to deal himself in and he started with a headline in Iowa City! The coffin on the Tina Bar excavation wasnt even closed and now Tosaw is going to add his voice too and grab a headline.
 :rofl:
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DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by fcastle866 on December 13, 2019, 10:55:11 AM »
A lot of my notes are in boxes for a bit, so I figured it's just as fast to get an answer here.

1.  The glass/glasses that Cooper used for his drinks were taken away.  When were those taken and by whom? I thought I remember those disapearing at the end of the flight (wondering why they would not have been taken right away).

2.  Who did he tell that "It looks like Tacoma down there"  Wiki says it was Flo, but she would have been in the cockpit by then.  I'm guessing it was Tina, and Tina told Flo, and Flo told the investigators, because I thought I read one of her statements that said that (In Marty's book, packed away with the rest until I can get to it).

Thanks.
24
DB Cooper / Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Last post by Robert99 on December 12, 2019, 02:39:43 PM »
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12/9/19 …THE GLOW IN THE CLOUDS IS ATTACHED TO CITIES ON THE GROIUND   ............  crew couldn't see the ground. And except for the clouds, they couldn't see the atmosphere either. This  ......

12/9/19  ...
There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What the flight crew could see on the ground and not see on the ground was discussed extensively on DropZone about 8 to 10 years ago.  Despite Georger's BS to the contrary, it was my opinion at that time and has consistently been my opinion since that time, the flight crew could not distinguish specific objects or lights on the ground due to the weather overcast and additional cloud layers below the airliner.

However, it has been my opinion all along that the flight crew could see the "glow" from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area.  The only thing that would prevent the flight crew from seeing that "glow" would be if the cloud layers were extremely dense.  The weather situation in the Portland/Vancouver area was also extensively discussed on DropZone years ago and there was nothing exceptionally bad about the weather there that night.  The weather was just typical for that area and that season.  For the record, the late Sailshaw also posted years ago that he had seen "glows" from cities when flying above extensive cloud layers.

When I posted that some people were claiming that the flight crew could not see anything that night, I noted the sources for those claims and, probably by sheer accident, Georger included one of those sources in his post on this matter in which he implied that the claim originated with me.

For anyone seriously interested in aviation weather or other aviation matters, I highly recommend a visit to the Federal Aviation Administration's web site.  The FAA has a number of publications listed on that site that can be downloaded free of charge.
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DB Cooper / Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Last post by Robert99 on December 12, 2019, 10:34:52 AM »
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I hear crow tastes like chicken, is that true Robert99?

I don't know what crows taste like.  Georger should be able to tell you.  And you should look twice before jumping to conclusions.
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DB Cooper / Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Last post by haggarknew on December 12, 2019, 10:27:22 AM »
I hear crow tastes like chicken, is that true Robert99?
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DB Cooper / Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Last post by Robert99 on December 12, 2019, 10:23:19 AM »
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Its official - could see lights of Portland and specific areas.

"  Contrary to our earlier belief, the crew told him that they could see the lights of Portland And other distinctive lights in that area, so given knowledge of the specific area the hijacker could very easily have made a jump to a specific location. "

See post #4294 on the Suspects and Confessions thread for more comments on the above.

Cooper did not have any control over the flight path of the airliner.  He did not specify any particular route to be flown.

Consequently, there is no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have jumped "to a specific location".

Robert: He didn't need to control the flight path, he only needed to know the general area, which he likely did.  If a plane starts in Seattle and is flying to Mexico City or Reno or wherever, then that path is south.  By giving a specific altitude, he can have some control of the path as well.  Whether or not he knew where he was going is up to interpretation, but there is a strong possibility that he could have had an idea of where he was going and a general area of where to jump and land.  He would not have been able to pinpoint a drop zone, but landing in a general area was certainly possible, and if he had help on the ground, then all he needed was a general area.

Jumping "in a general area" is not jumping "to a specific location".  When Cooper jumped, he may or may not have had an idea about which state he was in [Washington or Oregon], but he didn't have the means to know which city he was near.
28
DB Cooper / Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Last post by fcastle866 on December 12, 2019, 09:25:25 AM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.

The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

Robert-I'd buy into the airspeed/ground speed more if they were flying west to east or vice versa.  I still think it is possible that Cooper thought he could beat the system here.  The man took over a jetliner, took $200k, and jumped, so if he lived in that fantasy world, why not in a world where he could determine his location along a 135 mile route? 

As far as the airways go.  I only have handy the most recent maps, which may have changed since 1971, but they show V23 and V495 coming out of Seattle, and V23 turns into V287 at Malay.  I'm suggesting that he suspected the plane would fly south, and not fly east or west and make an end around, or worse, fly over the ocean, or avoid the cities due to the bomb.  All these variables would be hard to plan for, hence my belief that he got really lucky a few times in a row.

Sluggo's site had a good summary of the airways, but I have not been able to track it down on Wayback Machine or another site. If anyone has a link, please provide it.  I thought there was some talk about bringing it back up.  $1200 was a price I think I remember, but it really would cost quite a bit less, and I think some of us could chip in and get it back up.

There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about. However, if things had gone the way he thought they might go, he might have been expecting to see more than he did.  The fog there in Portland is quite thick and seeing it in person gives one a different perspective on things.

Castle you say: There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about.

What glow that Anderson talked about - whats the documentation for this? The interview that Anderson gave?

This discussion is in three threads now.  Probably should be in one.  Georger, Anderson stated something about the glow, but it's been over a year since I read that and it will take me a while to find it in the 302s.  The reason I say there is a strong possibility that all he could see was the glow is because I think the cloud cover could have been too much. However, I also think that there is a strong possibility that Cooper could have seen lights.  Seeing only a glow and seeing lights are not mutually exclusive events.  My point is that if there is a decent probability of something occurring, then it is worth considering.  There is a group that believes Cooper could not possibly have known where he was in the air, I say there is at least a 50/50 chance he could, so therefore it is worth considering.  For reference on the 50/50, I think it is 100/0 that aliens were involved, 99/1 that the CIA was involved, etc. etc.  I feel that there is a group that is 100/0 that he knew where he was in the air or on the ground.
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DB Cooper / Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Last post by fcastle866 on December 12, 2019, 09:19:54 AM »
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Its official - could see lights of Portland and specific areas.

"  Contrary to our earlier belief, the crew told him that they could see the lights of Portland And other distinctive lights in that area, so given knowledge of the specific area the hijacker could very easily have made a jump to a specific location. "

See post #4294 on the Suspects and Confessions thread for more comments on the above.

Cooper did not have any control over the flight path of the airliner.  He did not specify any particular route to be flown.

Consequently, there is no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have jumped "to a specific location".

Robert: He didn't need to control the flight path, he only needed to know the general area, which he likely did.  If a plane starts in Seattle and is flying to Mexico City or Reno or wherever, then that path is south.  By giving a specific altitude, he can have some control of the path as well.  Whether or not he knew where he was going is up to interpretation, but there is a strong possibility that he could have had an idea of where he was going and a general area of where to jump and land.  He would not have been able to pinpoint a drop zone, but landing in a general area was certainly possible, and if he had help on the ground, then all he needed was a general area.
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DB Cooper / Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Last post by fcastle866 on December 12, 2019, 09:16:04 AM »
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Its official - could see lights of Portland and specific areas. Long held propaganda DEAD!

"  Contrary to our earlier belief, the crew told him that they could see the lights of Portland And other distinctive lights in that area, so given knowledge of the specific area the hijacker could very easily have made a jump to a specific location. "

Thanks for posting this.  This is a key piece of info.
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