Author Topic: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper  (Read 10682 times)

Offline 18C

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 12:51:33 AM »
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Which begs the question: how did he get to be the first to realize the elegance of stealing an airplane for money and parachuting away?

Hence, did someone tell him? Who was that? Did that person tell anyone else???

According to an article I read:

"While downing shots of vodka in his Victoria, British Columbia, apartment, Paul Cini had watched a television news segment about a failed hijacking for ransom. In the midst of the story, his alcohol-fuzzed mind somehow managed to produce a eureka moment: The best way for a hijacker to escape justice was not to fly abroad, but rather to jump from the plane".

Points to Cini for being perhaps the first to think of the idea. It seems the first to implement it anyway.

Strange how a spate of this type of crime suddenly started occurring in late 1971, and then into 1972. Most must surely have been inspired by D.B. Cooper and not the man with the fractured skull and long jail sentence, Paul Cini.
 

georger

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Re: Sky Jacking Previous to D B Cooper
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2014, 02:03:34 AM »
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Which begs the question: how did he get to be the first to realize the elegance of stealing an airplane for money and parachuting away?

Hence, did someone tell him? Who was that? Did that person tell anyone else???

According to an article I read:

"While downing shots of vodka in his Victoria, British Columbia, apartment, Paul Cini had watched a television news segment about a failed hijacking for ransom. In the midst of the story, his alcohol-fuzzed mind somehow managed to produce a eureka moment: The best way for a hijacker to escape justice was not to fly abroad, but rather to jump from the plane".

Points to Cini for being perhaps the first to think of the idea. It seems the first to implement it anyway.

Strange how a spate of this type of crime suddenly started occurring in late 1971, and then into 1972. Most must surely have been inspired by D.B. Cooper and not the man with the fractured skull and long jail sentence, Paul Cini.

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Offline Jemison Thorsby

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Hello and thanks for admission to the forum
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 04:01:42 PM »
I just heard of this forum while listening to the Ground Zero radio show a couple of nights ago. The discussion was about Wolfgang Gossett, and I must say I was unimpressed with the guest and his theories/facts. I've seen and heard some compelling stories and theories and I'm sure I will see many here as I have time to peruse the threads, but none have been as convincing to me as the Kenny Christiansen story. I wonder how many here would agree or could offer some reasons not to believe in his being DB Cooper. Thanks again for allowing me in on the conversation.
 

Robert99

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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 04:34:15 PM »
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I just heard of this forum while listening to the Ground Zero radio show a couple of nights ago. The discussion was about Wolfgang Gossett, and I must say I was unimpressed with the guest and his theories/facts. I've seen and heard some compelling stories and theories and I'm sure I will see many here as I have time to peruse the threads, but none have been as convincing to me as the Kenny Christiansen story. I wonder how many here would agree or could offer some reasons not to believe in his being DB Cooper. Thanks again for allowing me in on the conversation.

Jemison, Welcome to the Shutter's Cooper forum.

Have you reading anything on the DropZone Cooper thread, or anywhere else, put out by one RobertMBlevins?  Or by one Jo Weber?  If you have, then you know why they are not permitted to be on this thread.

In the specific case of Ken Christiansen, he won't work as a Cooper suspect because he was 4 inches shorter than Cooper, had the wrong color eyes, was bald headed, etc., etc..  KC continued to work for NWA for a number of years after the hijacking until he retired, never came into any "big" (or unexplained) money, and may have actually flown later with some of the flight attendants who were on NWA 305.

In reality, KC is one of the most unlikely people on earth to have been D.B. Cooper.  Jo Weber's candidate, one of her late husbands, is another such person. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Hello and thanks for admission to the forum
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 05:18:00 PM »
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I just heard of this forum while listening to the Ground Zero radio show a couple of nights ago. The discussion was about Wolfgang Gossett, and I must say I was unimpressed with the guest and his theories/facts. I've seen and heard some compelling stories and theories and I'm sure I will see many here as I have time to peruse the threads, but none have been as convincing to me as the Kenny Christiansen story. I wonder how many here would agree or could offer some reasons not to believe in his being DB Cooper. Thanks again for allowing me in on the conversation.


Hello, Jemison, and welcome to the forum. Gossett seems to have good and bad just as many of the other suspects. Robert99 clued you in pretty good about Kenny. The problem can easily fall under the "convincing" category, but when you really look at it from the inside vs the outside, a different picture will come into view.

Kenny never purchased his house for cash....verified.
A very good reason he had a large sum of money prior to his death can be explained.
Kenny doesn't fit any part of the description of Cooper, other than being male  8)

The people speaking out about him have been found to be deceptive. they have a woman by the name of Carolyn Powell/Turner who the author makes a big deal out of her being married to a cop, so I guess she wouldn't lie ? she also claims Kenny bought his house for cash. she also claimed her husband was charged with attempted murder. that was another false statement, so basically she is not reliable. Robert was the main person claiming Kenny bought his house for cash. he said he got the idea from Gray's book "Kenny purchase a home in Bonney lake" somehow he thought this meant cash? so, how did Carolyn have the same idea? nobody has verified anything these people have claimed. only one person speaks for everyone?

Decoded did a whole episode on Christiansen failing to notice they put a huge hole in the theory by stating Bernie Geestman was not an accomplice to this crime.

If you ever researched Dropzone.com, you would find multiple stories, and events about Christiansen proving deception clearly going on. not one piece of evidence has ever been shown proving anything. no expensive coin/stamp collection, no proof of a large loan shortly after the crime. it goes on, and on. 

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Now, we did a lot of research on Kenny, and showed the problems to the only person pushing Kenny, and in return was marked as unreliable, not to be trusted, hate mongers etc. etc.

What I find interesting is the fact of some of these suspects being on National television many times over, and not one of the living witnesses has ever come forward?

Now, if this isn't enough. they have come forward now stating a little girl remembers seeing Kenny building the bomb in a shed made from rolls of quarters. this person had absolutely now reason to remember this from that long ago. the author has admitted they read the Dropzone thread, so idea's can pop into one's head. Marla Cooper seems to have done the same by researching the case, and adding to her story.

You are more than welcome to believe, or think Kenny could be Cooper. I'm just filling in some gaps they leave out of the story, or modify it to fit again.

Duane Weber? at least he fits the description, but I won't say anything else due to an overload of emails that would follow by Jo  :D :D


Shutter

« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 09:31:30 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 05:20:28 PM »
I will leave this thread for a while, and then I will move it to the "New forum & News updates" thread. it's no biggie, some of the new people do this as well....no problemo...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 09:25:41 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Jemison Thorsby

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Re: Hello and thanks for admission to the forum
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 10:13:31 PM »
Thanks for the welcome and feel free to move the thread as needed. I'll figure out the protocol as things progress. I appreciate the further info re:Kenny Christiansen, and I have read very little and done even less actual research on the case, it has just always intrigued me. I'll give a few thoughts----I always felt a skepticism about the reported cash purchases, especially so near to the time of the event and so near the scene of the crime. Bills with recorded serial numbers are not going unnoticed so early on. The accomplice that seems necessary in the scenario is the most loyal in the history of crime if he has not cashed in on the story after the statute of limitations. Most in that position would also likely feel slighted at their take in the event as well. I suspect Meltzer took literary license with some of the facts in order to promote himself. But as to the "eyewitness" description, I give almost no credence to that whatsoever. I say almost, because I do believe DBC was male and caucasian. That is about as far as I will go. Without much specific detail, let me just say that eyewitness descriptions I have found about as reliable as Ouija boards. From the description, I will assume that DBC indeed had eyes, but color I would not assign based on testimony. I will assume he was not a person of extreme height or a dwarf, but beyond that I would not go. Hairlines can easily be altered and are not reliably described unless they are in some way outlandish.

I'll say this, I always assumed DBC to be a career criminal, maybe a petty thief who stumbled upon an idea to make a big score and he either got away with it or perished in the obscurity of the night. That doesn't fit Kenny Christiansen, but what does is a workaday guy who happened upon the same idea and decided to risk his life for it. If so, then he obviously didn't die or get caught and was smart enough to avoid the law until he died. The real question would then be why take all that risk and not take more of the reward? I have a feeling that Kenny Christiansen could have vanished from society about as easily as DBC vanished into the night from the aft stairway.
 

Offline Shutter

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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 10:25:52 PM »
Most descriptions are unreliable because the crimes last for seconds in most cases. here, you have several people who spent hours with Cooper and they all gave similar descriptions. the passengers were unreliable due to them not knowing what was going on, so they were different.

Kenny's personality doesn't seem to fit either. just because he didn't like where he was working? Cooper stated he didn't have a grudge against the airlines, he just had a grudge. Kenny went on despite his whining about Northwest airlines another two decades. whats next, he did that so no attention was drawn to him?

Tina, and the other stews seen him sitting, and was standing next to him on several occasions...

Tina spent the most time with him. she's the same height as Kenny, surely she would have claimed Cooper was the same height as her? another guy who believes Kenny was Cooper claims he wore spring loaded jump boots to make him taller, and wore a toupee and the FBI has a photo of him looking down from the rear stairs that were never opened on the ground  :D :D
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:38:40 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2015, 10:34:52 PM »
Here is something from the FBI...

No matter how much someone wants to put DB Cooper's height at 5'8" will never change the fact he was reported to be 6'. You can certainly say it's so but you have to have articulable fact to support the dismissal of the witnesses credibility. But if you discredit the witness on one piece of her statement you may have to discredit all, you can't have it both ways.
 

Robert99

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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2015, 10:44:11 PM »
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Thanks for the welcome and feel free to move the thread as needed. I'll figure out the protocol as things progress. I appreciate the further info re:Kenny Christiansen, and I have read very little and done even less actual research on the case, it has just always intrigued me. I'll give a few thoughts----I always felt a skepticism about the reported cash purchases, especially so near to the time of the event and so near the scene of the crime. Bills with recorded serial numbers are not going unnoticed so early on. The accomplice that seems necessary in the scenario is the most loyal in the history of crime if he has not cashed in on the story after the statute of limitations. Most in that position would also likely feel slighted at their take in the event as well. I suspect Meltzer took literary license with some of the facts in order to promote himself. But as to the "eyewitness" description, I give almost no credence to that whatsoever. I say almost, because I do believe DBC was male and caucasian. That is about as far as I will go. Without much specific detail, let me just say that eyewitness descriptions I have found about as reliable as Ouija boards. From the description, I will assume that DBC indeed had eyes, but color I would not assign based on testimony. I will assume he was not a person of extreme height or a dwarf, but beyond that I would not go. Hairlines can easily be altered and are not reliably described unless they are in some way outlandish.

I'll say this, I always assumed DBC to be a career criminal, maybe a petty thief who stumbled upon an idea to make a big score and he either got away with it or perished in the obscurity of the night. That doesn't fit Kenny Christiansen, but what does is a workaday guy who happened upon the same idea and decided to risk his life for it. If so, then he obviously didn't die or get caught and was smart enough to avoid the law until he died. The real question would then be why take all that risk and not take more of the reward? I have a feeling that Kenny Christiansen could have vanished from society about as easily as DBC vanished into the night from the aft stairway.

On the possibility of one or more accomplices, consider the following:

     1.  Would one or more members of the brain trust have realized that it might not be a good idea to jump wearing a pair of loafers or a business suit (even with thermal underwear)?

     2.  Would one of the accomplices make it a point to learn enough about parachutes so that Cooper could tell the flight attendants that he wanted front and back parachutes, ala skydiver?

     3.  Would one of the accomplices be smart enough to figure out that they should ask for large denomination bills, say $50 or $100?  Cooper is lucky that he didn't end up with 200,000 one-dollar bills weighing more than 400 pounds.

     4.  Finally, are you sure that you could find several people in Seattle, or anywhere else, that could do such an incompetent job, either solo or working together, in planning this hijacking?

It should be noted that the FBI has stated that the flight attendants were interviewed separately on the night of the hijacking (Tina in Reno, and Flo and Alice individually in Seattle) and that all three of them gave consistent descriptions of Cooper. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:46:46 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline MarkBennett

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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2015, 10:44:53 PM »
Kenny has his advocates, but as FBI agent Larry Carr said many people believe their guy is Cooper and no amount of evidence can convince them otherwise.

You saw the Decoded...It was a little too clever sometimes.  Here are my criticisms.  First, they tried to get around the description - Kenny was too short, too white, too bald -- by saying eyewitness descriptions are often wrong.  But these aren't witnesses who didn't just see Cooper in passing.  They spent hours with him. Tina Mucklow's description included a description of his socks!

One claim is he bought his house for cash.  As Shutter describes, research has uncovered he may not have put down ANY cash.  He bought his house by assuming a mortgage the sellers had and giving them a promissory note for the rest.  He also sold three wooded lots he bought in 1961 for $300,000 in the early 1990s that accounts for more than his entire estate at death.  You can find documentation of both transactions (although, not the promissory note) on the Pierce County web site.  He continued working for NWA for 20 years.  There is no evidence of any financial windfall.

So, once you accept Kenny didn't match the description and he didn't come into any money, you have to ask yourself what do you have left?  A hidden box in his attic? Could be for anything.  His missing that weekend? Could have been anywhere?  His alleged loan to Bernie Geestman's sister a few months later?  Lot of details missing on that one, including whose it was and how was it paid back so quickly.  Money found on his lot?  None of the principals  to that story have ever been found.

At that point, you can still argue for him as your preferred suspect, but you have a hard time answering when someone asks "what do you base that on"?
 

Offline Shutter

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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2015, 10:58:35 PM »
Quote
So, once you accept Kenny didn't match the description and he didn't come into any money, you have to ask yourself what do you have left?

If you take the description away...

Probably a lot of Northwest male employee's working at the time that have been overlooked by others who think Kenny could be Cooper. how about TWA, or any other airlines? nope, I don't think the FBI, or others believe it was an inside job.

I know exactly what it feels like to be falsely accused. many here know what I'm talking about. it took almost 2 years to clear my name over a ridiculous accident. it really doesn't take much, but it takes a lot to prove!!! even when it was plain as day!
 

Offline Shutter

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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2015, 11:20:19 PM »
A little more from the FBI....

-DB Cooper was not a drinker, he only had one drink and spilled a portion of that. If someone was a drinker, in a situation like this he would have had more than just one in the five hours he was on the plane.

-He was not a chain smoker, he was on the aircraft for five hours and only smoked 8 cigarettes. That would make him a smoker of less than a pack-a-day and this under normal conditions.

-He spoke in an intelligent manner and never lost his cool, he was always polite throughout the ordeal.

-He had brown eyes (Schaffner saw his eyes before he put on the glasses, he looked directly at her several times urging her to read the note)

-He is 5'10 to 6'1 (Mucklow is 5'8 and spent 5 hours with Cooper, she would know if he was her height or taller. Have someone 5'8 stand next to someone 6 feet, the difference is obvious. Better yet, position yourself at a level of 5'8 and look at someone at a 6' elevation. Now spend 5 hours with that person, you'll know the difference. No one put Cooper under 5'10.

-He had olive skin (no make-up, neither Mucklow, Schaffner or Hancock made comment on make-up which would have been very obvious. Again, do the math, put dark makeup on someone then sit next to them with your shoulders touching, you can see the make-up.)

-He had dark hair, receding with sideburns (no wig, this would have been painfully obvious, if a man was wearing a wig with a receding hair line and side burns everyone would have noticed, especially Mucklow and Schaffner.)

-He was med built (no one put him over 190 lbs, in fact most put him 180 or under. Find a man 6 foot 180 lbs, thats a med to thin build.)

Mucklow spent hours with him and described his shoes in detail (something a woman might notice) even down to the grain of the leather. She was certain to state they were slip on's. There is nothing in the investigation that points to Mucklow not being reliable in her statement so I give it weight. Of course that is different than actual fact but I do believe Cooper had slip ons.

Now, the FBI might not always get things right, but they do this for a living, so I tend to take a lot of the information provided by them and use it as a tool to guide me through certain points in the case. most of these stories tend to be nothing but a story.

Shutter
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 11:44:18 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: Hello and thanks for admission to the forum
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2015, 12:07:03 AM »
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Now, the FBI might not always get things right, but they do this for a living, so I tend to take a lot of the information provided by them and use it as a tool to guide me through certain points in the case. most of these stories tend to be nothing but a story.

Shutter

Hi Jemison! 
"Welcome to the forum.  I found this information on the official FBI website:
We have a solid physical description of Cooper. “The two flight attendants who spent the most time with him on the plane were interviewed separately the same night in separate cities and gave nearly identical descriptions,” says Carr. “They both said he was about 5’10” to 6’, 170 to 180 pounds, in his mid-40s, with brown eyes. People on the ground who came into contact with him also gave very similar descriptions.”

And what of some of the names pegged as Cooper? None have panned out. Duane Weber, who claimed to be Cooper on his deathbed, was ruled out by DNA testing (we lifted a DNA sample from Cooper’s tie in 2001). Kenneth Christiansen, named in a recent magazine article, didn’t match the physical description and was a skilled paratrooper. Richard McCoy, who died in 1974, also didn’t match the description and was at home the day after the hijacking having Thanksgiving dinner with his family in Utah, an unlikely scenario unless he had help."

"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline sailshaw

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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2015, 09:55:56 AM »
Shutter:  You say: "Mucklow spent hours with him and described his shoes in detail (something a woman might notice) even down to the grain of the leather. She was certain to state they were slip on's. There is nothing in the investigation that points to Mucklow not being reliable in her statement so I give it weight. Of course that is different than actual fact but I do believe Cooper had slip ons."

I say you should look at the loafers Sheridan Peterson used for the add in the Boeing News and he also jumped in a demo jump wearing the same suit, tie, shirt,  and loafers as DB and all way before Norjak. See loafers (slip ons) in attached photo.

Bob Sailshaw