Author Topic: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes  (Read 70322 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #465 on: November 26, 2018, 12:07:00 AM »
Perhaps Cooper used the dummy reserve to pack a portion of the ransom. After all, the money bag was completely filled and would be easier to tie off at the top if some of the money was transferred to the dummy reserve.
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Offline georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #466 on: November 26, 2018, 12:10:32 AM »
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Perhaps Cooper used the dummy reserve to pack a portion of the ransom. After all, the money bag was completely filled and would be easier to tie off at the top if some of the money was transferred to the dummy reserve.

well I can see I get to post more docs...

lots of comments in docs about the knapsack, Cooper being pissed about it, explanations to crew why he was cannibalizing chutes, what he was doing with the money, fabricating containers and trying them ... etc. 

Let me put those quotes together and post ... tomorrow. There was no shortage of comment by Cooper and the crew on this subject. No need to speculate! No need to speculate!    :o
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 12:12:59 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #467 on: November 26, 2018, 03:57:37 AM »
I don't think there's any evidence that Cooper opened the 2nd reserve, which it seems like people are suggesting?

There may be different interpretations by Tina, as to what he was doing when he opened the one reserve.

Be interesting to see if georger finds anything that suggests opening more than one reserve.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #468 on: November 26, 2018, 08:49:30 AM »
I don't think he opened the second reserve. if he ever did it was after the plane left the ground..
 

Offline Robertrand

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #469 on: November 26, 2018, 07:10:51 PM »
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Perhaps Cooper used the dummy reserve to pack a portion of the ransom. After all, the money bag was completely filled and would be easier to tie off at the top if some of the money was transferred to the dummy reserve.

I always assumed this as well because it would've have been more durable than the bank sack. But why not use both both reserve chute containers? Seems like an unnecessary risk to use the sack at all.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #470 on: November 26, 2018, 11:58:35 PM »
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Perhaps Cooper used the dummy reserve to pack a portion of the ransom. After all, the money bag was completely filled and would be easier to tie off at the top if some of the money was transferred to the dummy reserve.

I always assumed this as well because it would've have been more durable than the bank sack. But why not use both both reserve chute containers? Seems like an unnecessary risk to use the sack at all.

Why guess about this? Why do people prefer guessing over testimony?  Guessing is more exciting and you can make shit up! Maybe people will be discussing 'made up shit' 200 years from now then the poser can say: "I influenced civilisation" on his grave!  8)

But here's the facts:

Cooper Knapsack and Money Packing –

2310 – [Pilot Notes]    wants money in negotiable currency to be passed & a crew member . [Nothing in Pilot Notes about knapsack]

3:13pm  305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. Stewardess (Schaffner) has been handed note requesting 200,000 and knapsack by 5:00pm this afternoon. Wants 2 back pack parachutes. Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination of bills not important. Has bomb in briefcase and will use if anything is done to block his request.

3:20pm     He must have knapsack with money before any other steps taken...


(7:41pm pst)   NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit.

7:42 pm    t1
305:      MSP FLT OPS this is 305 outbound Seattle 14 miles (out) on V23.
                Seattle he is already trying to get the door down. Stewardess (Mucklow) is with us (in cockpit). He cannot get the stairs down.

305:      We now have an aft stair lite on.
MSP:      Roger.305.                                   
         

7:54 pm    t1   
MSP:      As soon as reasonably sure the man has left the quicker you can land.
305:       Roger. Miss Mucklow said he apparently has the knapsack around him and thinks he will attempt a jump.



Florence Schaffner 11/24/71
Cooper remarked about how heavy the money was. He seemed amused and child-like.
Schaffner furnished 13 pages of notes which she took during the course of the flight. 
[No statement about knapsack]

Interview 11-30 Mucklow:
Mucklow then used a plain envelope to write out the demands of the hijacker, listing that he wanted four parachutes including two back packs and two chest packs, $200,000 in cash in small bills, and that he wanted everything by “by five o’clock”.  ” Mucklow says that Florence Schaffner  delivered this note to the pilot’s compartment. [Nothing about knapsack]

The hijacker displayed an extensive knowledge of the aircraft and seemed specifically well informed in refueling procedures to the point that the crew had difficulty in convincing him that only 90% of the required fuel was on board at the time he was protesting the fact that refueling had not been completed. It was also during this time that he complained to Mucklow that he had requested the money be delivered in a knapsack but instead it was delivered in a cloth type bank bag, which displeased him. It was at this time that Mucklow recalls he stated he would be forced to use one of the parachutes to rewrap the money since he had not been furnished the knapsack. At this same time Mucklow says she suddenly observed him having a small green paper bag, contents unknown.
Mucklow received the impression that this hijacking was carefully planned and thought out in advance  in that the hijacker was even specifying that the money was to be furnished in a knapsack and even had already insisted that a discarded matchbook cover (he had provided for one of the stews to light a cigarette for him) be returned to him (and…

Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA:
The hijacker later told (repeated to)  Mucklow that he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency, two back and two front parachutes, and fuel trucks to meet the plane when it landed.
When Mucklow returned to the plane with the last back pack chute, she saw that the hijacker had one of the small chutes open and was cutting nylon cords out with his pocket knife. He took the nylon cord and wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it a few times from top to bottom, and with the same piece (of cord)  he made a loop like a handle at the top. This nylon cord was pinkish in color. He appeared irritated that they hadn’t given him a knapsack for the money as requested, and after trying to put the money in an unfolded parachute, he decided to leave it in the canvas bag (and fabricate a holding line for that, instead).   
He said, “We’re going to Mexico City, gear down, flaps down, you can trim the plane to 15, you can stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel, but not here in the United States. The aft door must be open and the stairs down. The altitude, under 10,000 feet, they know they can’t go over that. Cabin lights out and everyone is to be forward of the first class curtain.” 


?> original request two back pack chutes .... may be added two front pack reserves as insurance in case the knapsack for hauling money got overlooked?  ::)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:24:55 AM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #471 on: November 27, 2018, 01:28:05 AM »
Coopers alleged use of the word “trim” sure sounds like pilot talk rather than kicker, loadmaster or other aircrew.

377
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #472 on: November 27, 2018, 01:48:32 AM »
georger:
I noticed once or twice you alluded to the "crew notes" saying they were taking by Scott.
The stuff you posted above says the right thing, that Schaffner wrote those notes

you wrote "Schaffner furnished 13 pages of notes which she took during the course of the flight.  "

So you agree the "crew notes" ..the written ones at Sluggo's site (from the FBI) were written by Flo, right?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #473 on: November 27, 2018, 12:50:58 PM »
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georger:
I noticed once or twice you alluded to the "crew notes" saying they were taking by Scott.
The stuff you posted above says the right thing, that Schaffner wrote those notes

you wrote "Schaffner furnished 13 pages of notes which she took during the course of the flight.  "

So you agree the "crew notes" ..the written ones at Sluggo's site (from the FBI) were written by Flo, right?

I dont know - thats the question. Thats why I keep including that passage: where are the 13 pages of Flo's notes or are they the Pilot Notes?

14 pages are identified in the orig pilot note pdf ... so 13 pages? 14 pages? Looks like the passage I posted could be referring to the pilot notes. And Flo has always been assumed to be the transcriber of the pilot notes  based on what Im not sure ... based on some passage in the PI Transcript? "Flo is with us in the cabin now" ?

Who created the pdf? I think I got my copy off the old Sluggo website?

 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:59:29 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #474 on: November 27, 2018, 02:17:36 PM »
The pdf that is a transcription of those notes?
I did that, way back when.

Sluggo says snowmman provided it on his site.

In that pdf, I also mention, based on some of the comments about pilot/copilot/Tina that it was probably Flo.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #475 on: November 27, 2018, 02:23:56 PM »
I had been interested in the chute questions for very few reasons. Did he ask for multiple chutes because there was an accomplice on board (unlikely)? Could his choice of chutes have told us anything about him? (1 in 4? Also unlikely.) Could his choice tell us if he died in the jump? Not unless Mucklow saw him strapping on the trainer.

What are the immediate goals of the chute inquiries? Are they functional or entertaining? Is the goal to ID Cooper or is it a leftover DZ topic that guys like me wouldn't understand? (377, I'm not jumping from anything higher that a car hood.) I feel like I'm missing something when I read the back and forth on this thread. Why do we want to understand the parachute selection, to profile Cooper?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #476 on: November 27, 2018, 02:29:44 PM »
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I had been interested in the chute questions for very few reasons. Did he ask for multiple chutes because there was an accomplice on board (unlikely)? Could his choice of chutes have told us anything about him? (1 in 4? Also unlikely.) Could his choice tell us if he died in the jump? Not unless Mucklow saw him strapping on the trainer.

What are the immediate goals of the chute inquiries? Are they functional or entertaining? Is the goal to ID Cooper or is it a leftover DZ topic that guys like me wouldn't understand? (377, I'm not jumping from anything higher that a car hood.) I feel like I'm missing something when I read the back and forth on this thread. Why do we want to understand the parachute selection, to profile Cooper?

Well one of the first communications between plane and ground has them asking for 2 back pack chutes. 2 not 4.

The passages are:

3:13pm  305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. Stewardess (Schaffner) has been handed note requesting 200,000 and knapsack by 5:00pm this afternoon. Wants 2 back pack parachutes. Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination of bills not important. Has bomb in briefcase and will use if anything is done to block his request.

3:20pm     He must have knapsack with money before any other steps taken.

Is it possible he changed 2 to 4 as a backup in case they didnt deliver the knapsack? Or is this a misunderstanding between the stews and the cabin?

Cooper was in charge of his chute demands. 2 vs 4.  Somebody changed 2 to 4. Who made the change, Cooper or somebody in the crew? Or did Scott not understand he wanted 4 in his first request? I think it is Scott screwing things up and getting communications screwed up!

The passages above are in the PI Transcript.

It is pretty clear he asked for the money to be delivered in a knapsack - that was his request and his intention. But, the crew screwed that part up and the money got delivered in a bag with no knapsack sent in with the money. He made it very clear to Tina that he is pissed at being sent no knapsack. I posted those passages last night if anyone is reading my posts ?

 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 02:40:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #477 on: November 27, 2018, 03:12:10 PM »
What very likely happened was, Scott and the ground screwed things up with his 3:13 communication:

3:13pm  305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. Stewardess (Schaffner) has been handed note requesting 200,000 and knapsack by 5:00pm this afternoon. Wants 2 back pack parachutes. Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination of bills not important. Has bomb in briefcase and will use if anything is done to block his request.

3:20pm     He must have knapsack with money before any other steps taken.

Maybe "2 back pack parachutes" should have been "4 back pack parachutes" ... and in spite of everything the knapsack instruction gets left out completely.

This lead directly to Cooper having to cannibalize a chute to try and fabricate a more suitable container for the money. Tying the money bag off at the top was not Cooper's first choice and he tried to avoid doing that. In the end however that is exactly what he was forced to do ... and did. That may have lead to money being found at Tina Bar after circulating in the Columbia and Nature for some time.

That probably means Cooper bailed somewhere in the Columbia drainage basin vs near Ariel. The FP drop timeline may be a few minutes wrong.

So the mere fact of money at Tina Bar does not guarantee that Cooper died - only that the container failed in some form which is exactly what Cooper was trying to avoid with his original request for a knapsack.

What comes around, goes around.   ;D   
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 03:15:01 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #478 on: November 27, 2018, 03:25:17 PM »
If you look at the winds around Portland at the time, it's unlikely canopy drift happened between the flight path around PDX and Tena Bar.
The wind is in the wrong direction.

It's more likely the money got dumped into the Columbia near PDX, and the water moved it towards the area of dredging near Tena Bar.

I don't think the money dropped directly from Cooper, to the area near Tena Bar.

So it's pretty odd to think Cooper may have jumped near PDX and an open canopy not be spotted by a random person.

Maybe he did just go in the river, and the body never found.

 

FLYJACK

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #479 on: November 27, 2018, 03:47:53 PM »
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If you look at the winds around Portland at the time, it's unlikely canopy drift happened between the flight path around PDX and Tena Bar.
The wind is in the wrong direction.

It's more likely the money got dumped into the Columbia near PDX, and the water moved it towards the area of dredging near Tena Bar.

I don't think the money dropped directly from Cooper, to the area near Tena Bar.

So it's pretty odd to think Cooper may have jumped near PDX and an open canopy not be spotted by a random person.

Maybe he did just go in the river, and the body never found.

Or the Willamette R...

The flightpath crossed the Willamette R right where the 717171684* code POSSIBLY deciphers...

(BTW: This isn't my leading LZ theory, just an alternate)