Author Topic: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes  (Read 74010 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2014, 08:40:19 PM »
Is it fair to say Cooper wasn't a scientist either  ;D ;D ;D
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2014, 08:46:18 PM »
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Is it fair to say Cooper wasn't a scientist either  ;D ;D ;D

Yes, if anyone needs evidence of Cooper failing the criminal mastermind exam, here it is.
 

Robert99

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2014, 12:29:42 AM »
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Back to the parachutes...

Just wondering, was there ever any resolution on the DZforum to the D-rings issue with Cooper's reserve chute? My assumption is he must have had D-rings or he borrowed D-rings from the other main chute in order to attach the reserve. He wouldn't attach the reserve chute with parachord, right?

The D-rings in question for attaching the reserve chute must be placed on the main parachute harness by a qualified rigger.  There is no way that Cooper could do that during the hijacking.  And in fact, neither main parachute had suitable D-rings in the first place.

If Cooper did attach the reserve chute to the main parachute's harness with the shroud lines from the 2nd reserve, then he would be adding to his problems.  His chances of a successful descent would probably be increased if he simply jumped with one main chute rather than adding a jury-rigged reserve to it.

I assumed Cooper didn't care about the reserve as a reserve, that he messed around with it in order to find a way to attach the money to himself. The fact he jumped with the reserve chute after apparently attaching the money bag to himself has always bothered me.

It's not know for certain if Cooper had the reserve chute attached to him in any manner when he jumped.  It is just a matter of one reserve chute being unaccounted for.  If he took the canopy out of it and replaced it with some of the money, then there is a good chance that the canopy (which was not a functional canopy) would have been found somewhere.  But it never has been.

When last seen by Tina, Cooper was tying some shroud lines around his waist with the other end of the shroud lines being tied to the money bag which was resting on the floor.  And that is not a good way to tie the money bag to himself. 
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2014, 10:51:33 PM »
Quote
It's not know for certain if Cooper had the reserve chute attached to him in any manner when he jumped.  It is just a matter of one reserve chute being unaccounted for.  If he took the canopy out of it and replaced it with some of the money, then there is a good chance that the canopy (which was not a functional canopy) would have been found somewhere.  But it never has been.

When last seen by Tina, Cooper was tying some shroud lines around his waist with the other end of the shroud lines being tied to the money bag which was resting on the floor.  And that is not a good way to tie the money bag to himself. 

The suitcase with the bomb, the non-functioning reserve and the money bag... That's a lot of stuff to hold on to jumping out of a jet.

Did a quick calculation, if that money bag weighed around ten kilos, it would have about 10,000 Joules of energy for the paracord to dissipate during a canopy deployment... I can't imagine Cooper keeping the money under those circumstances. If he did, the paracord would have broken his back.
 

georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2014, 11:32:54 PM »
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It's not know for certain if Cooper had the reserve chute attached to him in any manner when he jumped.  It is just a matter of one reserve chute being unaccounted for.  If he took the canopy out of it and replaced it with some of the money, then there is a good chance that the canopy (which was not a functional canopy) would have been found somewhere.  But it never has been.

When last seen by Tina, Cooper was tying some shroud lines around his waist with the other end of the shroud lines being tied to the money bag which was resting on the floor.  And that is not a good way to tie the money bag to himself. 

The suitcase with the bomb, the non-functioning reserve and the money bag... That's a lot of stuff to hold on to jumping out of a jet.

Did a quick calculation, if that money bag weighed around ten kilos, it would have about 10,000 Joules of energy for the paracord to dissipate during a canopy deployment... I can't imagine Cooper keeping the money under those circumstances. If he did, the paracord would have broken his back.

9.52544 kg

 

Moriarty

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2014, 12:47:04 AM »
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It's not know for certain if Cooper had the reserve chute attached to him in any manner when he jumped.  It is just a matter of one reserve chute being unaccounted for.  If he took the canopy out of it and replaced it with some of the money, then there is a good chance that the canopy (which was not a functional canopy) would have been found somewhere.  But it never has been.

When last seen by Tina, Cooper was tying some shroud lines around his waist with the other end of the shroud lines being tied to the money bag which was resting on the floor.  And that is not a good way to tie the money bag to himself. 

The suitcase with the bomb, the non-functioning reserve and the money bag... That's a lot of stuff to hold on to jumping out of a jet.

Did a quick calculation, if that money bag weighed around ten kilos, it would have about 10,000 Joules of energy for the paracord to dissipate during a canopy deployment... I can't imagine Cooper keeping the money under those circumstances. If he did, the paracord would have broken his back.

9.52544 kg

The only person who would risk A) getting blown up if the bomb's real B) going to jail for your entire life if caught C) jump blindly into the night isn't an adventurer, it's someone who's desparate. It means that for Cooper death was a risk he was willing to take for that immediate $200,000. Cooper skyjacked a plane, didn't invest $20/month. Cooper is not going through all that risk to lose that money in the jump.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 12:49:38 AM by Moriarty »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2014, 01:03:26 AM »
Morey, what's your understanding of how you developed the preference for seeing DB Cooper as a guy like yourself, or people that you know.

It's clear from your comments that you would never hijack a plane and jump under the conditions and mind-set that you have described above. Hence, it seems you think Cooper was a guy like you.

I saw a documentary on Netflix last night called "Korengal," and it is a follow-up to "Restrepo."  "Korengal" specifically talked about how the troopers there loved combat, the "high" of shooting and hitting someone with a 50 cal. It shows me how different we can be.  I would never chose to go into the military and deploy to a place like the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan. But the guys in the documentary did.

It seems we are very different.
 

georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2014, 01:13:34 AM »
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Quote
It's not know for certain if Cooper had the reserve chute attached to him in any manner when he jumped.  It is just a matter of one reserve chute being unaccounted for.  If he took the canopy out of it and replaced it with some of the money, then there is a good chance that the canopy (which was not a functional canopy) would have been found somewhere.  But it never has been.

When last seen by Tina, Cooper was tying some shroud lines around his waist with the other end of the shroud lines being tied to the money bag which was resting on the floor.  And that is not a good way to tie the money bag to himself. 

The suitcase with the bomb, the non-functioning reserve and the money bag... That's a lot of stuff to hold on to jumping out of a jet.

Did a quick calculation, if that money bag weighed around ten kilos, it would have about 10,000 Joules of energy for the paracord to dissipate during a canopy deployment... I can't imagine Cooper keeping the money under those circumstances. If he did, the paracord would have broken his back.

9.52544 kg

The only person who would risk A) getting blown up if the bomb's real B) going to jail for your entire life if caught C) jump blindly into the night isn't an adventurer, it's someone who's desparate. It means that for Cooper death was a risk he was willing to take for that immediate $200,000. Cooper skyjacked a plane, didn't invest $20/month. Cooper is not going through all that risk to lose that money in the jump.

I can see right now that you have never belonged to a Fraternity, the Arnold Air Society, been called into the Dean's office and told to stop all pranks, replaced the timing gear in a 1951 Chevy on the Alaskan highway with snow falling, .... and the list goes on. You must have lived a very clean life ... free of women?  Hunted coons or cougars at midnight with dogs ... or left part of your jacket or jeans on a barbed wire fence running from your girlfriend's Dad in the middle of the night ... !

Or been involved in a space mission to Mars (50% loss rate) ???

Who says he lost "all" of the money? There were roughly 100 bundles to lose.




   
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 01:18:30 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2014, 01:25:28 AM »
Georger, in my travels in life I have met a few people - not many - but some who would PAY 200K to jump out of a 727 over the woods with 20 pounds of bricks tied to their waist and only wearing sandals and a windbreaker.

Even Robb Heady told us he jumped out of his 727 when it was going about 350 mph, and went into a screaming tuck to get down fast and only pulled at about 1,000, using only a reserve chute.  He didn't even have a back chute.

Also, -how about all those girls from NZ that jumped naked with 377????????????
 

Moriarty

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2014, 01:27:05 AM »
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Morey, what's your understanding of how you developed the preference for seeing DB Cooper as a guy like yourself, or people that you know.

It's clear from your comments that you would never hijack a plane and jump under the conditions and mind-set that you have described above. Hence, it seems you think Cooper was a guy like you.

I saw a documentary on Netflix last night called "Korengal," and it is a follow-up to "Restrepo."  "Korengal" specifically talked about how the troopers there loved combat, the "high" of shooting and hitting someone with a 50 cal. It shows me how different we can be.  I would never chose to go into the military and deploy to a place like the Korengal Valley in Afghanistan. But the guys in the documentary did.

It seems we are very different.

OMG, super great question. I use a phrase all the time, it's "I am exactly like you, only different." I don't know if you read "Kill Generation' (I think?) It makes this great comparison about how many soldiers stormed the beach in WWII and were killed never firing a shot compared to how nowadays they can't get soldiers to stop shooting. Different mindset. That's important.

I studied Zen, long sessions twice a day, every day for a couple of years. You get to know about yourself and therefore everyone else. We're not that different. We are all things. Good and evil.

I've done some high risk sports. I enjoy speed and I like to come to the edge of death. For some, people push that closeness to it's limit and find it. In the process of these I learned a lot about fear, how it works, why, overcoming etc. and one of the more important thiings to fear I learned is that it's all about comittment.

I think Cooper's bomb is fake for a list of reasons having nothing to do with the bomb. None the less, he constructed a bomb. Wore the suit. Went to the airport. Bought a ticket. Got on the plane. At this point his comittment is still zero. What Cooper did was hand the note to Flo. In that action, things changed.

 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2014, 03:52:31 AM »
So, do you think that Cooper could have been someone who didn't see the risks that you do, or he did and gravitated towards them because he likes that kind of action?

How do you think a trained commando would have approached the Norjak skyjacking?  Another day in the office?

What do you think Cooper's behavior tells us about the man?
 

georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2014, 02:01:08 PM »
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So, do you think that Cooper could have been someone who didn't see the risks that you do, or he did and gravitated towards them because he likes that kind of action?

How do you think a trained commando would have approached the Norjak skyjacking?  Another day in the office?

What do you think Cooper's behavior tells us about the man?

The problem once again Bruce, is we really don't have that many facts to judge Cooper on ... we have a few anecdotes. snippets, ... and beyond that we can't even agree on what the other alleged facts are.

The poster seems to be trying to apply a Zen model to Cooper. That may not apply at all. For one thing Cooper is in a different older generation - Cooper may have known more about the fox trot, prohibition, and Chicago gangsters than Zen! Cooper may have been a fan of Disney and Popeye and Charlie Chaplan, than the Beatles and Timothy Leery. (sp?)

Zen vs. Hitler and Churchill ? By Vietnam and JFK, half of Cooper's life has already been lived if the description is correct.

[edit] Let me articulate this further.

You have interviewed a number of agents and others involved in this case. So have I. The data I have indicates Cooper was a much more active and verbal participant in this hijacking than the Transcripts (for example) shows. The Transcripts show only a small sampling of Cooper's actual communications and participation, if the data I have is correct. 'That' does not indicate a person meditating, giving up control, and letting things simply happen - as per some Zen model. Just the opposite is indicated. Cooper was an active person trying to control the important facets of the hijacking, from beginning to end.

Would you agree, based on your interviews?

In the all-important issue of needing the door open and stairs down, for example, Cooper is insistent and persistent. Climbing to a favorable altitude and leveling and stabilizing the plane, Cooper is equally insistent, in fact we know he went out and tested the stairs, then came back and communicated with the pilots requesting the plane be slowed and stabilized further before jumping ... that is a person trying to control his environment vs. just letting things happen.

As I see Cooper, active control was central to everything Cooper wanted and did. That is not a passive person, which some seem to want to portray Cooper as being ?
 


 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 02:42:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2014, 05:20:06 PM »
Georger, I have learned very little about Cooper per se from my interviews. Tina and Flow are incommunicado, and Billy went belly-up just after contact. Alice, I've never found, and Galen is keeping her under wraps.

As for the feds, Himms only spoke with me for 20 minutes. Calame about the same, Rhodes zilch, O'Hara for 15, and these three were mostly about McCoy. Nichols won't talk, and Detlor only spoke in general terms, confirming stuff that I had written about the case. Sid Rubin was out to lunch as we were eating lunch, and Bob Sale deferred any direct input about Cooper, so we talked mostly about how the FBI does its business.

Larry was a different story, but he didn't get into details about what Cooper did, just mostly details of the case as it referred to Barb Dayton, DNA, and the actions of the FBI, such as what happened to Jeremy Blauser.

So, what I know about Cooper is from other people's writings, especially GG and Tosaw, and the transcripts.

The point I was trying to make with Morey is that we often think of Cooper as someone we know. Hence, some posters think Cooper must have been "desperate," or some such, because they would have been desperate to do what Cooper did. I don't think that is necessarily true. It's the "cultural goggles" that Sluggo attributes to sleuthing - we see things in certain way because of how we look, not how people actually act.

Thanks for the more indepth description of Cooper's actions. I didn't realize he was so active. I never thought that Cooper was a Zen-kind-of-guy. If anything, I thought he was more of a guy doing a job that he was well-prepared to do, and was comfortable doing.

I didn't know that Cooper tested the aft stairs after deployment, came back, and then wanted the aircraft slowed.

BTW: There is a considerable time lapse between the time Cooper sent Tina to the cockpit and the pressure bump - twenty minutes or so, or more.  But Cooper had already cut the cords when he sent Tina away, so what do you think Cooper did during that time?  He was already tying the bank bag, what else did he do, you think?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 05:28:01 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2014, 02:18:52 AM »
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Georger, I have learned very little about Cooper per se from my interviews. Tina and Flow are incommunicado, and Billy went belly-up just after contact. Alice, I've never found, and Galen is keeping her under wraps.

As for the feds, Himms only spoke with me for 20 minutes. Calame about the same, Rhodes zilch, O'Hara for 15, and these three were mostly about McCoy. Nichols won't talk, and Detlor only spoke in general terms, confirming stuff that I had written about the case. Sid Rubin was out to lunch as we were eating lunch, and Bob Sale deferred any direct input about Cooper, so we talked mostly about how the FBI does its business.

Larry was a different story, but he didn't get into details about what Cooper did, just mostly details of the case as it referred to Barb Dayton, DNA, and the actions of the FBI, such as what happened to Jeremy Blauser.

So, what I know about Cooper is from other people's writings, especially GG and Tosaw, and the transcripts.

The point I was trying to make with Morey is that we often think of Cooper as someone we know. Hence, some posters think Cooper must have been "desperate," or some such, because they would have been desperate to do what Cooper did. I don't think that is necessarily true. It's the "cultural goggles" that Sluggo attributes to sleuthing - we see things in certain way because of how we look, not how people actually act.

Thanks for the more indepth description of Cooper's actions. I didn't realize he was so active. I never thought that Cooper was a Zen-kind-of-guy. If anything, I thought he was more of a guy doing a job that he was well-prepared to do, and was comfortable doing.

I didn't know that Cooper tested the aft stairs after deployment, came back, and then wanted the aircraft slowed.

BTW: There is a considerable time lapse between the time Cooper sent Tina to the cockpit and the pressure bump - twenty minutes or so, or more.  But Cooper had already cut the cords when he sent Tina away, so what do you think Cooper did during that time?  He was already tying the bank bag, what else did he do, you think?

The last twenty minutes was spent in preparation, perhaps testing his rig, testing the stairs, making several calls to ask them to slow and stabilize the plane, and perhaps waiting for some sign below, lights coming up in the distance or something, which made him decide to jump.

If you are looking for something dramatic, it's not there. It is very clear what Cooper's main concern was - acquiring a favorable altitude then slowing and stabilizing the plane to accommodate Cooper's sense of when it was proper to jump. That concern is expressed clear back at Seattle while still on the ground. It isn't a sophisticated plan or set of demands. Cooper very clearly was concerned with his survival and trying to maximise the probability of that, as much as he could given the conditions at hand (which includes his level of confidence whatever that was).

It is equally clear neither the pilots or anyone else knew Cooper was gone, until 5 or more minutes after he was gone, and everyone had to back track and estimate the actual position 305 had been when Cooper jumped - that is reflected in the first FBI search map which maps out zones of confidence in where Cooper might have landed.

Again, there is nothing dramatic in any of this. All of this is routine (for 1971 technology). The placard is found where it predictably would be. The drama arrives with the finding of Cooper money at Tina Bar. That is a complete anomaly if everything else is correct.

And we have been over this only to arrive at the same paradox, a million times.   


 
   

 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 04:32:49 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2014, 11:55:04 AM »
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It is equally clear neither the pilots or anyone else knew Cooper was gone, until 5 or more minutes after he was gone,

According to the transcripts it appears they believed he jumped somewhere around the Merwin Lake area, south. however the transcripts also read over an hour later trying to slow his reactions down. this is way past the 5 or so minute mark?