Author Topic: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes  (Read 56596 times)

georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2014, 02:22:19 PM »
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When someone says "they're not a scientist," like Larry Carr in his video, I think it is a veiled way of saying:

 "I hope it's okay that I'm lazy and didn't do the research on this subject. I know I failed to contact the people who are experts in this field so I can't give you a substantive, valuable commentary, and I hope that's okay with you."

I think Larry Carr is more of a 'scientist' than you are! So your insult against Carr falls on deaf ears here -=

The choice is not scientist vs. layman. The real choice is 'rational' vs 'irrational'.

Open minded investigator willing to consider and looking for "facts" vs. "conspiracy gossip columnist" always jumping around looking for a conspiracy angle. There is a fundamental difference in roles and techniques and outcomes.

 
   
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 02:24:44 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2014, 05:00:10 PM »
Is it fair to say most of the Agents use, or apply science? even being "scientific" in there findings vs actually being a "scientist?  :-\
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 09:59:58 PM by shutter »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2014, 09:53:57 PM »
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Is it fair to say most of the Agents use, or apply science? even being "scientific" is there findings vs actually being a "scientist?  :-\

Meh, semantics... but... Definitely fair, they use some scientific methods.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2014, 12:34:27 AM »
So, R- Nine-Nine, what do you think Larry Carr meant when he announced on the video that we wasn't a scientist?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2014, 12:39:01 AM »
So Georger, are you saying I'm a "conspiracy gossip columnist" ? You seem to only infer that, but it's a loose association.

Let's not beat around the bush here. Tell me exactly what you think I am.

Doesn't a true scientist start with a clear statement of fact?  So, what's the true nature of my writing? I know it makes you feel uncomfortable and does not reinforce your world view, but what am I exactly?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2014, 03:35:34 AM »
I re-posted my interview with Ralph Hatley here because this is the parachute section, and RH-2 is so much a part of this discussion.
*****

Greetings Everyone,

Sail, his wife Michelle, and I went to see Ralph Hatley today, 12. 2. 14. Here is my report:

We traveled to see Ralph Hatley (RH-2) at his DZ in Eagle Creek, Oregon, about 45 minutes southeast of Portland.

Ralph is a robust looking 77-year old guy, with a big pot belly, a big smile, and twinkle in his eye. Yes, at times he comes across in a rough, authoritative manner that can easily be construed as that of a curmudgeon.

But I found Ralph to be a delightful man to interview over lunch, chatting about DB Cooper. However, he is a man who is cautious and reserved. When we approached controversial topics, such as the role of Earl Cossey in Norjak, he rebuffed many of my questions behind a façade of “I don’t remember,” or I don’t know.”

Hence, we had to warm up to our topics while eating a lovely lunch in bucolic Estacada, Oregon.

At first, Ralph provided some wonderful background, historical points and factoids:

He grew up in the Blue Mountains of eastern Oregon, and his great-grandmother walked the Oregon Trail as a barefoot kid and her family.

Ralph said that he joined the military in 1953 at 16, and served in the 82nd Airborne. He also claimed that he flew DB Cooper’s 727 after Northwest had sold it to a cargo company, and he flew a run to Salt Lake City with a friend who was also the pilot in command. Ralph has a commercial pilot’s license, but he is not rated for a 727, so he back-tracked during the conversation to restate his position, “I was invited to fly the plane.”

RH-2 also told us that he jumped with some of the Golden Knights in Europe in the 1950s before they were formally organized, and that he did not know Ted Braden. Ted came to Europe in the 1960s, if my memory is correct.

In his youth, Ralph went to Gresham High School, along with Ted Mayfield, whom he taught how to skydive. Ralph not only confirmed the allegation that Ted had been arrested for armed robbery, but he also gave us the details.

RH-2 told us that Ted had been a part-time delivery driver for a bottling company and knew the work schedules and cash flows of the grocery stores that he serviced. As a result he knew to rob them on Sunday nights when the till was at its fullest. Ralph said that Ted got caught, “the first time,” when he was robbing “Mr. G’s Market” in Oregon City.

As for DB Cooper, Ralph told us that “there was nothing difficult about that jump.” He also said that he had told the FBI that the skyjacker was an experienced skydiver “even before they gave him the money.”

RH-2 described many encounters with FBI agents throughout the early stages of the investigation, and joked that he told one agent that he in fact knew a skydiver named Dan Cooper in Moses Lake, but he was only 20 years old and wore glasses.

He was also interviewed by Julius Mattson, the Portland SAC, and over a lunch RH-2 delivered a photo of the “Century Skydivers of Vancouver,” an elite group of local jumpers. Later, a special investigator from the San Francisco FBI office asked for an interview with Ralph and grilled him on the photograph. Ralph toyed with the G-man, and then in pique of disgust told the guy, who was named Special Agent Bond, that he was the person responsible for giving the photo to Mattson originally.

Ralph was hard to pin down on the question of what parachutes were used and by whom, but he did say that if he was Cooper he would want to use a chute that had a rigger’s card, and one that matched the documentation on the rigging pins so that he would be sure he would have a “fresh chute” free of any electronic devices or tampering by the FBI.

RH-2 also discussed his relationship with Earl Cossey, whom he described as a good friend. However, he hadn’t seen Coss in about ten years, and has never met Coss’ kids, who are now middle-aged adults.

Nevertheless, he said that he had beaten Coss in many skydiving competitions, “But he beat me a few times, too.”

Ralph characterized their friendship as mostly surrounding skydiving. Nevertheless, he said that Coss was only an average poker player and that he, RH, had to “save Coss' ass a couple of times to make sure he didn't get the shit kicked out of him.”

Hatley also told us that the rental houses that Coss renovated had originally been embezzled by Cossey from his mother.

So, Ralph knew about the alleged shady side of Earl Cossey, and agreed that Cossey could be provocative. But he also honored his friend by recalling how beloved Coss was by his students in the middle school where he taught.

Ralph didn’t have anything to offer on the murder of Earl Cossey, though.

As for the Amboy chute, RH-2 said that Coos had indeed called him about the matter, but only spent the time bad-mouthing the FBI and ragging on their inept handling of Norjak. RH-2 shared many of the same opinions.

“The FBI only has tunnel vision.”

After a solid hour of chatting, Ralph suddenly announced: “I’m going to tell you something that’s going to blow your asses out of the water.”

He proceeded to tell us a story that occurred in the 1977-1978 time period.

Ralph said he was contacted by his attorney out of the blue. The lawyer said that he had a client that was looking for a “go-between” with the FBI, and wondered if Ralph would agree to carry the client’s requests to the Bureau. Ralph agreed.

The attorney said that his client had knowledge of the identity of DB Cooper and wanted to “come out of the cold.” The client was looking for a promise of immunity from prosecution.

Ralph contacted Ralph Himmelsbach (RH-1), whom he had become friends with through their mutual aviation activities. Himmelsbach said he was willing to hear the offer, but wanted to see a DB Cooper $20 bill before anything substantive could proceed.

RH-2 relayed the information to the attorney, who responded that his client also wanted immunity for a murder.

Again, RH-2 relayed the information.

Himmelsbach replied that he would need to involve the District Attorney in the jurisdiction where the murder had taken place. Again RH-2 and the lawyer relayed the messages.

The murder apparently took place in Washington, and Hatley told us that Himmelsbach had contacted the Washington state authorities, who turned down the murder-immunity deal.

Subsequently, the client’s offer to reveal the facts of the case was withdrawn.

However, Hatley told us that he got the full story on the attorney’s deathbed. He also said that the client is now deceased.

This is what Ralph Hatley learned at that juncture.

Hatley told us that the attorney was Jim Leubke of Portland, Oregon, and that the client was a man whom Hatley knew. In fact, Hatley knew the client’s wife as well, who was a teller at a local savings and loan bank. Even though Hatley refused to tell us the name of the client, he shared the details:

The client was part of DB Cooper’s ground team, who all conspired kill DB Cooper for the money. They buried Cooper’s body on the slopes of Mount St Helens before it blew in 1980, and the fate of the money is a bit murky. RH-2 said he was told that the wife “got rid of it when she realized it was hot.”

However, the client also told the attorney to tell Himmelsbach that he “would see some of the money before he retired.”

Since this was taking place in 1978, it appears that it predates the money find at Tina Bar in 1980 and Himmelsbach’s retirement in early April 1980.

Despite not revealing the name of the client, RH-2 said that Himmelsbach knows the name of the client, and in fact Hatley says that he told RH-1 everything about the story.

“If you ask Ralph Himmelsbach for the name of the client and he gives it to you, I will confirm it for you - but I’m not going to tell you outright.”

We all – Dwight, Michelle, and I – pushed Hatley for the name, but he wouldn’t budge. However, he did relent a bit and told us that the client was also responsible for another murder, one that occurred in the Sandy, Oregon area. Hatley said, “He got away with that one.”


(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Dec 2, 2014, 9:10 PM)
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« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 03:36:25 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Robert99

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2014, 12:10:49 PM »
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So, R- Nine-Nine, what do you think Larry Carr meant when he announced on the video that we wasn't a scientist?

Bruce, I thought that I had already answered that, but here is a more detailed explanation.  And I will rely on my much used desk dictionary for some definitions.

Scientist - A person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences.

Scientific - (1) Relating to or based on science.  (2) Systematic; methodical.

My understanding is that Carr was saying that he was not a "scientist" as defined above.  Nevertheless, Carr used the "scientific method" in that he was systematic and methodical and also used analytical reasoning in examining evidence and other facts that applied to the case he was working on.

So while Carr may have been correct is saying that he was not a "scientist", he was and is definitely a user of "science" in his investigations.   
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 12:14:01 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2014, 02:27:03 PM »
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I re-posted my interview with Ralph Hatley here because this is the parachute section, and RH-2 is so much a part of this discussion.
*****

Greetings Everyone,

Sail, his wife Michelle, and I went to see Ralph Hatley today, 12. 2. 14. Here is my report:

...

As for DB Cooper, Ralph told us that “there was nothing difficult about that jump.” He also said that he had told the FBI that the skyjacker was an experienced skydiver “even before they gave him the money.”

RH-2 described many encounters with FBI agents throughout the early stages of the investigation, and joked that he told one agent that he in fact knew a skydiver named Dan Cooper in Moses Lake, but he was only 20 years old and wore glasses.

He was also interviewed by Julius Mattson, the Portland SAC, and over a lunch RH-2 delivered a photo of the “Century Skydivers of Vancouver,” an elite group of local jumpers. Later, a special investigator from the San Francisco FBI office asked for an interview with Ralph and grilled him on the photograph. Ralph toyed with the G-man, and then in pique of disgust told the guy, who was named Special Agent Bond, that he was the person responsible for giving the photo to Mattson originally.

Ralph was hard to pin down on the question of what parachutes were used and by whom, but he did say that if he was Cooper he would want to use a chute that had a rigger’s card, and one that matched the documentation on the rigging pins so that he would be sure he would have a “fresh chute” free of any electronic devices or tampering by the FBI.

RH-2 also discussed his relationship with Earl Cossey, whom he described as a good friend. However, he hadn’t seen Coss in about ten years, and has never met Coss’ kids, who are now middle-aged adults.

(This post was edited by BruceSmith on Dec 2, 2014, 9:10 PM)
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Clearing up the owner and type of parachute Cooper used would be really nice, as Cossey claimed it was a heavily modified parachute, while your interview with Hayden suggests it was more or less a typical NB6. Also, just getting a personality profile of Cossey helps understand his accounts.
 

georger

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2014, 02:52:52 PM »
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So, R- Nine-Nine, what do you think Larry Carr meant when he announced on the video that we wasn't a scientist?

Bruce, I thought that I had already answered that, but here is a more detailed explanation.  And I will rely on my much used desk dictionary for some definitions.

Scientist - A person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences.

Scientific - (1) Relating to or based on science.  (2) Systematic; methodical.

My understanding is that Carr was saying that he was not a "scientist" as defined above.  Nevertheless, Carr used the "scientific method" in that he was systematic and methodical and also used analytical reasoning in examining evidence and other facts that applied to the case he was working on.

So while Carr may have been correct is saying that he was not a "scientist", he was and is definitely a user of "science" in his investigations.   

well put - wish I had come up with that!  :)
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2014, 04:24:10 PM »
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So, R- Nine-Nine, what do you think Larry Carr meant when he announced on the video that we wasn't a scientist?

Bruce, I thought that I had already answered that, but here is a more detailed explanation.  And I will rely on my much used desk dictionary for some definitions.

Scientist - A person who is studying or has expert knowledge of one or more of the natural or physical sciences.

Scientific - (1) Relating to or based on science.  (2) Systematic; methodical.

My understanding is that Carr was saying that he was not a "scientist" as defined above.  Nevertheless, Carr used the "scientific method" in that he was systematic and methodical and also used analytical reasoning in examining evidence and other facts that applied to the case he was working on.

So while Carr may have been correct is saying that he was not a "scientist", he was and is definitely a user of "science" in his investigations.   

I concur.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2014, 06:59:27 PM »
Bruce, I understand some of the people involved with this crime get tired of it sometimes, however, it would of been good to have Mitchell on record with the main suspects, and his thoughts other than just Weber.  :(

Some won't be around much longer.....tick, tick..... 8)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 09:32:14 PM by shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2014, 11:18:22 PM »
I am endeavoring to build a long-term relationship with Bill Mitchell. I trust that one day we will sit down with a stack of pix and Bill will give us the low-down on each and everyone. Big ears, no turkey gobble, not geeky enough, too fat, too skinny, etc.

I think the better we understand Bill, the better will we will able to assess his perceptions. Remember, Bill is not a livin', breathin' Face-Recognition Device. Just because he sat near a guy for twenty minutes or so, doesn't mean that he can remember exactly every detail about him 43 years later with a high degree of confidence and certainty.

It's been 43 years.  What's another six months, really?
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2014, 04:12:15 PM »
Back to the parachutes...

Just wondering, was there ever any resolution on the DZforum to the D-rings issue with Cooper's reserve chute? My assumption is he must have had D-rings or he borrowed D-rings from the other main chute in order to attach the reserve. He wouldn't attach the reserve chute with parachord, right?
 

Robert99

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2014, 08:26:10 PM »
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Back to the parachutes...

Just wondering, was there ever any resolution on the DZforum to the D-rings issue with Cooper's reserve chute? My assumption is he must have had D-rings or he borrowed D-rings from the other main chute in order to attach the reserve. He wouldn't attach the reserve chute with parachord, right?

The D-rings in question for attaching the reserve chute must be placed on the main parachute harness by a qualified rigger.  There is no way that Cooper could do that during the hijacking.  And in fact, neither main parachute had suitable D-rings in the first place.

If Cooper did attach the reserve chute to the main parachute's harness with the shroud lines from the 2nd reserve, then he would be adding to his problems.  His chances of a successful descent would probably be increased if he simply jumped with one main chute rather than adding a jury-rigged reserve to it.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Two Back Packs & Two Front Chutes
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2014, 08:34:37 PM »
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Back to the parachutes...

Just wondering, was there ever any resolution on the DZforum to the D-rings issue with Cooper's reserve chute? My assumption is he must have had D-rings or he borrowed D-rings from the other main chute in order to attach the reserve. He wouldn't attach the reserve chute with parachord, right?

The D-rings in question for attaching the reserve chute must be placed on the main parachute harness by a qualified rigger.  There is no way that Cooper could do that during the hijacking.  And in fact, neither main parachute had suitable D-rings in the first place.

If Cooper did attach the reserve chute to the main parachute's harness with the shroud lines from the 2nd reserve, then he would be adding to his problems.  His chances of a successful descent would probably be increased if he simply jumped with one main chute rather than adding a jury-rigged reserve to it.

I assumed Cooper didn't care about the reserve as a reserve, that he messed around with it in order to find a way to attach the money to himself. The fact he jumped with the reserve chute after apparently attaching the money bag to himself has always bothered me.