Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 514483 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5625 on: September 23, 2020, 04:12:13 AM »
Couple things about the front reserve parachutes...

This is a simplistic description, but a round parachute is made up of a series of long panels, or 'gores', that are sewn together vertically, into a circle. They're kind of triangular shaped, which gives the parachute its domed shape. There is no part that is technically known as a 'fold', but during packing the panels are folded/stacked ('flaked') on top of each other sort of accordion style. At this point the appearance is long and thin, and those stacked panels would be what was referred to by 'folds'. If they were sewn together along the edges, I'm surmising that's what Cossey did to hold them together to make the 'dummy' reserve easier to repack. To cut half of it off to reduce bulk, you could either cut some of those panels out vertically, which would be hard to do and keep all of the lines, or you could cut the top half off of it the other way.

There wasn't a standard marking for a dummy reserve, but it would be standard that it would be marked somehow, either by the red X, the whole thing painted, or I remember these cloth tapes printed 'Training Device - Do Not Jump' that were sewn on. It would definitely be clearly marked somehow so that it wasn't mistakenly used on a live jump.

It would definitely have a ripcord. That's just standard, how they're held closed and opened. Being hand deployed, what it didn't have was a pilot chute.

Pulling the ripcord and opening the container would not render it worthless. One of the flaps has cloth loops. The other flaps have grommets. Closing the container, the loops go through the grommets, then the ripcord pins go through the loops. If you wanted to hold the money in it, it would be pretty apparent how you could use parachute lines to just tie it shut.

Looking at the closed container, on the ends of it are handles made of the same material the container is. (Those handles are what those non-pink lines were attached to.) It would be easy to tie lines onto those handles and around your body or onto the main harness.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5626 on: September 23, 2020, 05:49:24 AM »
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Couple things about the front reserve parachutes...

This is a simplistic description, but a round parachute is made up of a series of long panels, or 'gores', that are sewn together vertically, into a circle. They're kind of triangular shaped, which gives the parachute its domed shape. There is no part that is technically known as a 'fold', but during packing the panels are folded/stacked ('flaked') on top of each other sort of accordion style. At this point the appearance is long and thin, and those stacked panels would be what was referred to by 'folds'. If they were sewn together along the edges, I'm surmising that's what Cossey did to hold them together to make the 'dummy' reserve easier to repack. To cut half of it off to reduce bulk, you could either cut some of those panels out vertically, which would be hard to do and keep all of the lines, or you could cut the top half off of it the other way.

There wasn't a standard marking for a dummy reserve, but it would be standard that it would be marked somehow, either by the red X, the whole thing painted, or I remember these cloth tapes printed 'Training Device - Do Not Jump' that were sewn on. It would definitely be clearly marked somehow so that it wasn't mistakenly used on a live jump.

It would definitely have a ripcord. That's just standard, how they're held closed and opened. Being hand deployed, what it didn't have was a pilot chute.

Pulling the ripcord and opening the container would not render it worthless. One of the flaps has cloth loops. The other flaps have grommets. Closing the container, the loops go through the grommets, then the ripcord pins go through the loops. If you wanted to hold the money in it, it would be pretty apparent how you could use parachute lines to just tie it shut.

Looking at the closed container, on the ends of it are handles made of the same material the container is. (Those handles are what those non-pink lines were attached to.) It would be easy to tie lines onto those handles and around your body or onto the main harness.

What would make Cooper reject what you describe, assuming he tried this, and go back to the original money bag ?

Likewise, if he always had the option you describe why would he ask for a knapsack at all? Why not just go with this configuration if he understood parachutes so well? 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5627 on: September 23, 2020, 06:08:33 AM »
None of the descriptions of the dummy chute are mentioned anywhere in the 302's as far as I know. the red X appears to only live on the site known as the DZ. two different 302's give the same description of the chest pack missing with no mention of it being a dummy chute, training or non-functional or any type of X on the container.

A chute was found in 2001 and sent to the lab. they provided a description of the two chutes missing or so it appears that's how they described it as since only two are mentioned. one chest and one back pack..

The chest pack is described as a 24 foot, white nylon canopy white nylon shrouds- 14' length model T-7A. container was olive drab green 10" x 14" x 6". "Norm D" inscribed on the container..

The second document I have is only a partial of a 302 that I used for some reason and the date is unknown but gives the same description except for the "Norm D" inscription is not listed.

Neither document states the chute as operable or inoperable. since they appeared to have documented any writing on the container it should of been clearly visible to being some sort of training chute. I've wondered for years how Linn Emerick could of missed this given the knowledge he has. Cossey wasn't even there the day of the hijacking. could Cossey be wrong about what chutes really left the center?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 06:09:42 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5628 on: September 23, 2020, 11:28:54 AM »
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None of the descriptions of the dummy chute are mentioned anywhere in the 302's as far as I know. the red X appears to only live on the site known as the DZ. two different 302's give the same description of the chest pack missing with no mention of it being a dummy chute, training or non-functional or any type of X on the container.

A chute was found in 2001 and sent to the lab. they provided a description of the two chutes missing or so it appears that's how they described it as since only two are mentioned. one chest and one back pack..

The chest pack is described as a 24 foot, white nylon canopy white nylon shrouds- 14' length model T-7A. container was olive drab green 10" x 14" x 6". "Norm D" inscribed on the container..

The second document I have is only a partial of a 302 that I used for some reason and the date is unknown but gives the same description except for the "Norm D" inscription is not listed.

Neither document states the chute as operable or inoperable. since they appeared to have documented any writing on the container it should of been clearly visible to being some sort of training chute. I've wondered for years how Linn Emerick could of missed this given the knowledge he has. Cossey wasn't even there the day of the hijacking. could Cossey be wrong about what chutes really left the center?

Did somebody write a BOOK ABOUT THE CHUTES? And its still a complete mystery?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5629 on: September 23, 2020, 11:51:28 AM »
So, people have been researching and discussing this case every day for 15 years, and we still aren’t sure what parachutes Cooper used? That’s the saddest and most hilarious thing I have heard since Nov. 8th, 2016.  :rofl:
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5630 on: September 23, 2020, 12:05:56 PM »
Cossey's 302 mentions that it was "dummied up" and that the panels were sewn together. It does not mention panels were removed.

There is no mention of an X anywhere in the FBI files. Also, in Linn Emerick's book manuscript where he describes the event in detail, he mentions selecting the dummy reserve--which he did not know was non-functional--and that it was sort of lopsided so he slapped it back into shape and added bungees which were also missing. He mentions nothing of an X or anything else denoting a non-functional parachute. This is why I say that I do not believe the dummy had an X on it.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5631 on: September 23, 2020, 03:22:29 PM »
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Cossey's 302 mentions that it was "dummied up" and that the panels were sewn together. It does not mention panels were removed.

There is no mention of an X anywhere in the FBI files. Also, in Linn Emerick's book manuscript where he describes the event in detail, he mentions selecting the dummy reserve--which he did not know was non-functional--and that it was sort of lopsided so he slapped it back into shape and added bungees which were also missing. He mentions nothing of an X or anything else denoting a non-functional parachute. This is why I say that I do not believe the dummy had an X on it.

What Cossey FBI file or files ?

Identify them!

Cossey was a private citizen and wrote no FD-302s ! Only the FBI writes FD-302s!

Be specific for a change.  Either identify the 302 you are talking about or - - - - if you even know .   :rofl:

Can you give us the DATE or even the DECADE of this 302 you are using as evidence of your evidence?

Are you really this damn stupid? I actually have to put up with your bullshit for the one millionth time and explain that by calling it "Cossey's 302" that I'm not suggesting that Cossey himself actually wrote the damn 302? Stop wasting my time with stupid word games GEORGER.

The Cossey 302 I referenced: PART 11, PAGES 53-54

Cheers!

Here ya go -  PART 11, PAGES 53-54 - now everyone can see it.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5632 on: September 23, 2020, 05:12:07 PM »
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What would make Cooper reject what you describe, assuming he tried this, and go back to the original money bag ?

Likewise, if he always had the option you describe why would he ask for a knapsack at all? Why not just go with this configuration if he understood parachutes so well?

I wrote what I did as general information in response to questions and things that were posed earlier yesterday. I do not know what Cooper actually did or what he knew about parachutes.

I did not know Cossey or Emerick (what ever became of him?) or how Sky Sports was run at the time. But I cannot imagine a dropzone worth their salt having a dummy training device that would not be clearly marked as such and kept separate from actual gear. To not do so would be grossly negligent and could result in a fatality.

I have some speculation as to how/why it may have been given. I can post that later today when I have more time, if anyone is interested.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 05:34:12 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5633 on: September 23, 2020, 06:13:02 PM »
According to Emerick he collected the dummy reserve from the "back room." He retrieved the other reserve from the "training gear rack." Apparently they came from two different locations at Issaquah(Seattle) Sky Sports and he was somewhat careless about the functionality of the dummy in particular.
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5634 on: September 23, 2020, 06:21:46 PM »
It's also interesting to note that apparently Emerick stated that the crew believed that DBC left the jet over Woodland.

There is a big difference between over Woodland and over Ariel--10 miles to be exact.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5635 on: September 23, 2020, 11:51:42 PM »
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It's also interesting to note that apparently Emerick stated that the crew believed that DBC left the jet over Woodland.

There is a big difference between over Woodland and over Ariel--10 miles to be exact.

So  Emerick talked to the crew after the hijacking ?  What was  Emerick's impression of Hancock and Anderson ?  Or Paul Soderlind or Twila Bates?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5636 on: September 24, 2020, 11:03:35 AM »
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It's also interesting to note that apparently Emerick stated that the crew believed that DBC left the jet over Woodland.

There is a big difference between over Woodland and over Ariel--10 miles to be exact.

So  Emerick talked to the crew after the hijacking ?  What was  Emerick's impression of Hancock and Anderson ?  Or Paul Soderlind or Twila Bates?

So you talked with Emerick? You know the genesis of the comment? You understand the totality of what Emerick heard and from whom? Or is the comment just a lie...he didn't really say it? You tell me GEORGER given that you know all and are apparently qualified to speak to Emerick's words and knowledge now that he is no longer around to speak for himself.
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5637 on: September 24, 2020, 06:21:33 PM »
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According to Emerick he collected the dummy reserve from the "back room." He retrieved the other reserve from the "training gear rack." Apparently they came from two different locations at Issaquah(Seattle) Sky Sports and he was somewhat careless about the functionality of the dummy in particular.

Drop zones supply the gear that student parachutists use. They would have a number of 'student rigs', which would be kept together in a particular place. That's what "training gear rack" would refer to, where he got the 'real' reserve. The "back room" might refer to a classroom, or just a storage room where they keep stuff such as dummy training devices. That Emerick got the two reserves from different places would be further indication of...*

That dummy reserve would not be a totally fake fabrication. It would be repurposed from a real reserve that was no longer airworthy. Again, it would/should be clearly marked. If some of the canopy had been removed, and it was 'softer to the touch', that would also make it apparent. I read somewhere that it was packed somewhat lopsided, and he pounded on it to correct that. A real reserve would not be that way. And in general, he would be familiar with all his gear. I cannot see a scenario where he does not know what it is.

(...*) Who knows what the reality was, but I can see no other conclusion but that he gave it on purpose. It would be the cheapest, easiest-to-replace chute he has. That he would knowingly give a non-functional chute, I can see two rationales for that...

One, and this is kind of dark, but... At this point, Emerick knows nothing of 'DB Cooper' and the news legend/'folk hero'(?) he would become. He does live in an era where there are a number of hijackings mostly perpetrated by politically motivated terrorist types ('take me to Havana'). Maybe he figures, who cares if it doesn't work.

Two, and perhaps this is more plausible... How much would the FBI tell him? How much would he ask? The FBI asks him for 2 chest-mount reserves. He knows that they can't be used by themselves as they do not have harnesses. He has to be wondering 'where are they getting the mains?' If he asks and the FBI responds, 'oh, we're getting those from a local flight service, they belong to some pilot', he knows those are bailout rigs and not compatible with the reserves (they don't have the D-rings to attach them). Does he tell this to the FBI? If he does, he might be talking himself out of 2 more rigs that he'll likely never see again.  So maybe he lets it lie, figuring the bailout rig will work, and gives the dummy reserve because he knows it can't be used anyway.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5638 on: September 25, 2020, 12:47:45 PM »
According to Emerick it was an honest mistake to handover the dummy reserve and I'm certain that is the truth. After all, he couldn't be certain that it wasn't going to be strapped to one of the flight crew.

Indeed, Emerick just didn't think he would be seeing the chutes again, therefore decided to give up the crappiest ones he could find. Even the functional reserve he described as one with an "ugly pink canopy."

All of that said, there is no reason to believe that the dummy was marked as such in any manner whatsoever. There is not a single description in the FBI files that denotes any markings at all.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5639 on: September 25, 2020, 03:55:31 PM »
Quote
All of that said, there is no reason to believe that the dummy was marked as such in any manner whatsoever. There is not a single description in the FBI files that denotes any markings at all.

That would be extremely unprofessional for a business to have a training chute available for someone to pickup and use. it is only mentioned in the 302's as an inoperable chute. another document describes the front pack including markings on the container. I think it's highly possible no dummy chute was given. we hear it straight from jumpers stating they are marked one way or another. I would certainly agree with this since it would be extremely dangerous to have lying around unmarked. Dudeman is not the only one who has mentioned this..

The only person stating this is Cossey and he wasn't there.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 03:56:11 PM by Shutter »