Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 480285 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4845 on: June 28, 2020, 03:26:02 PM »
Same old song and dance with FJ -

The word PACKET is NOT an official banking term today. Was it in 1971? I dont think so, according to the SeaFirst bank and Fed Reserve phone calls I made. FJ's defense for PACKET being an official banking term is three FBI 302's FJ presents - the same 302's he presented before. See those 302s attached. Never mind that FJ is cherry picking after saying 'you cant trust the information in 302s'. However, Himmelsbach uses an actual banking term in his video taped money description: STRAPS.

""There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands."

No mention of paper straps but only rubber bands . . .

BTW BUNDLES is an official banking term as defined by the Federal Reserve - all anyone has to do is Google this or go to a Federal Reserve website.

Back to basics: what are the issues the Science Team was tasked to answer? (a) how was the money prepared for delivered to Cooper on the plane, (b) what was the state of the money as found by the Ingrams, and (c) is there anything about the money that establishes how and when it arrived on Tina Bar, (d) is there anything about the money that tells us what happened to Cooper?

Let's go back to the FBI's original description of the Ingram find (in the socalled Palmer Report).

Ingram statement:
'''... the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands ... The boy picked up the money and the family determined that it was $20 bills... The bills were badly decomposed but held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling... Once home INGRAMs brother-in-law took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it at a bank. They had no idea where the money had come from or what it meant. The money was in a parcel barely held together by decomposed rubber bands, which crumbled and fell away upon being handled. '''
In a separate interview years later Brian says: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

“We are out here making a campfire, my father and I, and that’s when we discovered the three packets of $20 bills, later to be proven as ransom money of D.B. Cooper."

Brian has told others: “the money came out in pieces”. No statement of how many pieces or what pieces means. No mention of rubber bands or paper straps. Somebody in the FBI report above decided there were “there bundles”.  But, the above FBI statement does not make it clear if rubber bands were around each of three bundles, or if the rubber bands were around the whole find?   Where on the found money did INGRAMs brother-in-law remove rubber bands, or rubber band fragments. And there is no mention of paper straps in any of this.

At best the evidence is ambiguous and unclear. No FBI forensic report mentions looking for or finding rubber band fragments on any of the bills – and no paper strap remains either. FJ explains the paper straps away by saying they all “dissolved” over time.
 
The Federal Reserve rules which applied in 1971 say:

"How many bills are in a strap?"      -        Himmelsbach used the word STRAP.

"A ‘strap’ is a package of 100 notes regardless of denomination. A ‘bundle’ consists of 1,000 notes of the same denomination in ten equal straps of 100 notes each. Before depositing currency, currency must be prepared according to denomination. For $1 through $20 denominations, your deposit(s) must contain full ‘bundles’."

How were the bills being stored at SeaFirst before they were used to package a ransom for delivery to Cooper – anyone know? I thought we already knew the answer to that question but now, under the Fkyjack and Blevins regime at Dropzone, I not going to hazard saying anything about that! Anyone else dare answer or cares?

So, I guess it’s Carr and his witnesses and maybe Tom Kaye, vs Flyjack at Dropzone. Good luck to all and have a Merry Christmas!   
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 03:37:09 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4846 on: June 28, 2020, 05:28:07 PM »
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Same old song and dance with FJ -

The word PACKET is NOT an official banking term today. Was it in 1971? I dont think so, according to the SeaFirst bank and Fed Reserve phone calls I made. FJ's defense for PACKET being an official banking term is three FBI 302's FJ presents - the same 302's he presented before. See those 302s attached. Never mind that FJ is cherry picking after saying 'you cant trust the information in 302s'. However, Himmelsbach uses an actual banking term in his video taped money description: STRAPS.

""There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands."

No mention of paper straps but only rubber bands . . .

BTW BUNDLES is an official banking term as defined by the Federal Reserve - all anyone has to do is Google this or go to a Federal Reserve website.

Back to basics: what are the issues the Science Team was tasked to answer? (a) how was the money prepared for delivered to Cooper on the plane, (b) what was the state of the money as found by the Ingrams, and (c) is there anything about the money that establishes how and when it arrived on Tina Bar, (d) is there anything about the money that tells us what happened to Cooper?

Let's go back to the FBI's original description of the Ingram find (in the socalled Palmer Report).

Ingram statement:
'''... the boy turned up three bundles of money wrapped with rubber bands ... The boy picked up the money and the family determined that it was $20 bills... The bills were badly decomposed but held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling... Once home INGRAMs brother-in-law took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it at a bank. They had no idea where the money had come from or what it meant. The money was in a parcel barely held together by decomposed rubber bands, which crumbled and fell away upon being handled. '''
In a separate interview years later Brian says: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

“We are out here making a campfire, my father and I, and that’s when we discovered the three packets of $20 bills, later to be proven as ransom money of D.B. Cooper."

Brian has told others: “the money came out in pieces”. No statement of how many pieces or what pieces means. No mention of rubber bands or paper straps. Somebody in the FBI report above decided there were “there bundles”.  But, the above FBI statement does not make it clear if rubber bands were around each of three bundles, or if the rubber bands were around the whole find?   Where on the found money did INGRAMs brother-in-law remove rubber bands, or rubber band fragments. And there is no mention of paper straps in any of this.

At best the evidence is ambiguous and unclear. No FBI forensic report mentions looking for or finding rubber band fragments on any of the bills – and no paper strap remains either. FJ explains the paper straps away by saying they all “dissolved” over time.
 
The Federal Reserve rules which applied in 1971 say:

"How many bills are in a strap?"      -        Himmelsbach used the word STRAP.

"A ‘strap’ is a package of 100 notes regardless of denomination. A ‘bundle’ consists of 1,000 notes of the same denomination in ten equal straps of 100 notes each. Before depositing currency, currency must be prepared according to denomination. For $1 through $20 denominations, your deposit(s) must contain full ‘bundles’."

How were the bills being stored at SeaFirst before they were used to package a ransom for delivery to Cooper – anyone know? I thought we already knew the answer to that question but now, under the Fkyjack and Blevins regime at Dropzone, I not going to hazard saying anything about that! Anyone else dare answer or cares?

So, I guess it’s Carr and his witnesses and maybe Tom Kaye, vs Flyjack at Dropzone. Good luck to all and have a Merry Christmas!

FJ retorts quickly again:

 Georger claimed the Bank never used the term "packet".. I posted 3 FBI references of it and he still denies it...  Winning an argument is more important than the facts.

Not only do you have the facts wrong but your argument is completely irrational.

Take the L, Goerger, you lost. You always lose. You are an ignorant and arrogant lazy thinker who resorts to lies to win an argument. No wonder you have developed no suspect after over a decade (other than Ted Kaczynski based on a grudge) and spend most of your time trashing, smearing and lying about virtually everyone (EVERYONE) associated with this case in a desperate attempt to be relevant...  discredit and drag everyone else down to make your own lack of accomplishment look better.

REPLY>

 Georger claimed the Bank never used the term "packet".. I posted 3 FBI references of it and he still denies it...


No dumbass. These 302s are statements by FBI agents ... NOT statements by Seafirst Bank!

Show us a statement by SeaFirst on SeaFirst stationery that uses and verifies that the word PACKET is an official banking term, as you claim. All you have to do is go to the Fed Reserve website! But your ego wont allow you to do that. PACKET is not a formal banking term according to Ben Summerwill Fed Res ret. He worked there for thirty years vs your thirty years of your peddling DB Cooper crapola.

H was an FBI agent and he used the word STRAP! I have a 302 where H uses the word STRAP@!

You are as dense and argumentative as Blevins.

And you can also drop the Carr/Georger crapola. It was Carr and perhaps Kaye who called everyone. I simply followed Carr and Brian and his mother and others I talked with including a SeaFirst employee ...... which is more than you have ever done. I already said that decades ago. You probably looked that up years ago! 

There are ways to resolve all of this but of course you arent  interested and you havent done anything to do that!  Your ego is so fragile you cant bring yourself to even try.  You are a child.

All kinds of people have used different words or terminology for the money find thru the years. You wont even admit that! Instead you say Tina was using formal banking terms in one instance in which she uttered the word PACKET! BIG MISTAKE ON TINA'S PART! How far into left field can you go before someone like me tries to draw you back into reality? Its a good thing Cooper didn't utter the word packet or you would claim he was a banker too using formal banking terminology! Which then proves, you would say, your suspect was DB Cooper.  :P

You are crazy.   I can assure you the Cooper bills don;t give a shit!  Meanwhile everyone is stuck because of your divisive hate-filled posts. :rofl:

Himmelsbach uses the word STRAPS for the money. STRAPS is a formal Federal Reserve banking term. And STRAPS breaks down to BUNDLES which is another official banking term.

FBI agents have used all kinds of words including bundles, packets, packages ... Tina used five different words for the money. The Ingrams all said "bundles" until Brian converted to the "strap" theology for some reason! Kaye uses "bundles" . . . and on and on and on and on.  There is technical language or technical terminology vs common ordinary language commonly called slang used in normal conversation vs. in formal writing. . . and so it goes.

Show me a piece of writring by Noam Chomsky that says PACKET is a formal banking term! Produce any banker that says it is and I will call them up and have a discussion . . .  :o   
 
 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 06:07:03 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4847 on: June 29, 2020, 12:13:59 AM »
The Money vs. Flyjack.

Based on Larry's interviews I think Himms comes the closest to describing how the money was assembled and sent to Cooper, with several differences.

H says: ""There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of a hundred bills to a strap, and individual straps held together with rubber bands."  STRAP is an official Fed term: "A strap is a package of 100 notes.

But two problems emerged. (1) People started using the term 'bundle' or 'bundles' when referring to the Cooper money. However "BUNDLE" also turns out to be an official Fed banking term: "A bundle consists of 1,000 notes of the same denomination in ten equal straps of 100 notes each. Before depositing currency, currency must be prepared according to denomination. For $1 through $20 denominations, your deposit(s) must contain full bundles." I dont think anyone ever said or meant to imply that the Cooper bills had been assembled in Fed-type BUNDLES.

Clearly, Himm's "straps" began to be referred to as "bundles" by not only Agents but the general public.

Problem (2) is: H failed to amend his statement to say: 'There were ten thousand twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of approximately one hundred bills to a strap, in random sized straps'! Had H said that he and Larry Carr would be in agreement, as I understand the info Carr delivered after talking to bank employees.  And no paper straps were involved, in any event - only rubber bands.

The 12/2/71 302 that Flyjack has produced is the only known document that declares: "He stated the bills were made up in packets of $2000 each, and were banded with Seattle First National Bank or Federal Reserve Bank bands, or quite possibly banded with bands from other banks.  No identifying marks were placed on these bands."  This 302 doesnt say anything about rubber bands being used in the packaging! It was rubber bands the Ingrams saw and removed. Moreover, even Fkyjack says the Ingram find had rubber bands on it   ...  a position I feel FJ was reluctantly forced to admit to after months of dodging the rubber band issue in favour of paper straps (only)?. 

Flyjack could very easily claim there were no rubber bands on the Cooper money - because the 12/2/71 302 FJ is relying only speaks about "bands" ... I think everyone interprets as meaning paper straps.  God forbid that this 302 is actually talking about rubber bands  in some further contortion of reality.... the 302 only uses the word BANDS and not STRAPS ! Maybe FJ is wrong about paper straps?  ;D

People are going to come to their own conclusions. It's too bad FJ and Ckret weren't able to debate this issue together at DZ. Who knows where this would be today . . .

« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 12:51:14 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4848 on: June 29, 2020, 01:49:31 AM »
Reading old posts by everyone and ran across this: 2013.

Testxyz
Sep 1, 2013, 7:22 AM
Post #46492 of 58140 (47898 views)
Re: [georger] Money Details from the FBI Archive [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
Georger said....
Quote:
Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered."

Below is what FBI agent William Baker told the Oregonian on Feb 13 1980.

Alluded to at CitizenSleuths.com

Quote:
"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. "to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry." Because of that the actual amount could not be estimated, he said."

Ckret Aka Larry said this on April 1, 2008 at DZ....almost verbatim

Quote:
"It is my understanding the money was wrapped in rubber bands, no paper bands. The money was put together in different bill counts so it looked as if it was put together in a hurry. That means no two consecutive bundles had the same count.” 

..... This would make H's straps of 100 bills each incorrect, as well as two of the 302s FJ posted. There is just no end to the confusion in this case. 

Wouldnt the start and stop marks indicate how many bills and which serial numbers were in each bundle given Cooper? Or is there something about that that's wrong? If each bundle is a random count then start/stop marks should reflect that? Maybe there is an answer for this in the old posts . . .

« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 02:17:34 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4849 on: July 07, 2020, 12:08:47 AM »
Debris 400 ft south of Ingram site as of yesterday. People were there visiting their experiments.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 12:09:22 AM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4850 on: July 07, 2020, 12:10:43 AM »
4 month old bands as of yesterday buried at TBar. 
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4851 on: July 07, 2020, 03:45:31 PM »
Crop showing Deterioration of a Banknote exposed to UV at the surface of the beach for four mos. Compare this to any Cooper bill or to any of Kaye's photos! 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:48:43 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4852 on: August 03, 2020, 12:17:30 PM »
Our scientific investigation into the Cooper money diatoms has now been peer reviewed and will officially publish in the journal Scientific Reports (one of the Nature journals) tomorrow. Somehow the cat got out of the bag early and I am getting emails for interviews so I am giving you guys early access to the paper so you know what is going on. So it is clear, Scientific Reports is a serious, peer reviewed journal with an impact factor of 4.1 which puts it in the middle range of science journals. All the forensics journals I looked at had impact factors around 1 or less so this journal is harder to get into than your typical crime stuff. They don't tell you who your reviewers are but one appeared to be a hydrology/diatom expert and the other seemed to be a forensics guy so they covered their bases. The criticisms were comparatively light and the paper went from submission to acceptance in a very short time. This was the first time that I could find that diatoms were used to constrain a seasonal timeline in a forensic case so it is actually an important paper in the bigger picture beyond Cooper.

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(EDIT) Turns out I screwed up and the publication date was today. :(

Tom (and Mark)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:01:53 PM by Tom Kaye »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4853 on: August 03, 2020, 01:37:05 PM »
Wow, Tom. Fascinating stuff!

Based on your results, it seems to indicate that the Cooper money was dry from the hijacking until the early summer and then somehow became submerged before being buried on Tena Bar shortly after.

Perhaps the money came to rest on the river bank in November, 1971 until May/June 1972 when it fell/slid/was washed into the Columbia somewhere shortly upstream from Tena Bar where it somehow ended up where it did (Dredge? Flood?).

The question now, it seems, is where did the money end up AFTER DBC jumped? It was certainly near the Columbia but where along the river? Nearer to the location of the find? Or more toward where the flight crossed the Columbia on the flight path?

Regardless, my theory that he hit the water with the money moments after the hijacking is in serious doubt - along with those who claim the money was buried immediately after or shortly after Cooper landed.

Profound findings, Tom. Congratulations.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4854 on: August 03, 2020, 01:48:26 PM »
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Wow, Tom. Fascinating stuff!

Based on your results, it seems to indicate that the Cooper money was dry from the hijacking until the early summer and then somehow became submerged before being buried on Tena Bar shortly after.

Perhaps the money came to rest on the river bank in November, 1971 until May/June 1972 when it fell/slid/was washed into the Columbia somewhere shortly upstream from Tena Bar where it somehow ended up where it did (Dredge? Flood?).

The question now, it seems, is where did the money end up AFTER DBC jumped? It was certainly near the Columbia but where along the river? Nearer to the location of the find? Or more toward where the flight crossed the Columbia on the flight path?

Regardless, my theory that he hit the water with the money moments after the hijacking is in serious doubt - along with those who claim the money was buried immediately after or shortly after Cooper landed.

Profound findings, Tom. Congratulations.

Chaucer,

The above looks like you are having a Come to Jesus moment!
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4855 on: August 03, 2020, 02:00:58 PM »
I’m an academic so I’m always willing to change my opinion based on new information. I’m curious if others here will do the same or if they will begin to contort Tom’s conclusions to fit their own narrative or if they will try to undermine Or diminish Tom’s conclusions to maintain their narrative.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4856 on: August 03, 2020, 02:12:56 PM »
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I’m an academic so I’m always willing to change my opinion based on new information. I’m curious if others here will do the same or if they will begin to contort Tom’s conclusions to fit their own narrative or if they will try to undermine Or diminish Tom’s conclusions to maintain their narrative.

Based on previous experience here, the answer to your question is going to be "yes". 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4857 on: August 03, 2020, 02:51:01 PM »
R99,

Based on Tom’s conclusions here, I think it’s even more likely that Cooper did not survive the jump, don’t you agree? Unless there are some bizarre circumstances, I don’t know why Cooper would allow himself to be separated from $6000 if he landed safely. I think it also puts his landing spot (either dead or alive) much closer to the Columbia. What do you think?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4858 on: August 03, 2020, 03:07:25 PM »
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R99,

Based on Tom’s conclusions here, I think it’s even more likely that Cooper did not survive the jump, don’t you agree? Unless there are some bizarre circumstances, I don’t know why Cooper would allow himself to be separated from $6000 if he landed safely. I think it also puts his landing spot (either dead or alive) much closer to the Columbia. What do you think?
.

Robert believes Cooper was a no pull landing on Caterpillar Island...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4859 on: August 03, 2020, 03:18:33 PM »
Interesting...

Quote
Finding large diatoms on the bills rules out all theories involving human burial of dry bundles. This discounts the theories that the flight path was more westerly than the FBI chart shows and Cooper landed near and made his way along the Columbia River where he decided to bury some of the cash. It also discounts a perpetrator burying the money as a distraction at a later time. Finding summer diatoms rules out the theory that Cooper landed in the river in November, soaking the money and then buried some of it on shore.