Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 444251 times)

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4635 on: February 13, 2020, 02:25:02 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
FLYJACK in caPITOL lEtTeRs says:

" NO Georger, I didn't claim Kaye found only one diatom, he clearly stated he found many, I can read. I was referring to the question of whether Asterionella was the winter or summer variety, that is the context.

The real point was,, where was the bill in the packet.

I don't know if you genuinely lack contextual discrimination due to a disorder or are just being a troll, but many people are really fed up with your nonsense. You continue, without fail, to discredit yourself. You are more a hinderance than an asset to the Cooper case and your toxic behaviour toward others doesn't elevate your relevance.

You were caught lying and you refuse to admit when you are wrong which is often. You spend more time copying and pasting my comments with added disinformation than doing any of your own research. You can choose to be a positive influence."

GeRoger's REPLyy:

HUH!? 

What is "contextual discrimination" in a human language?

hinderance is spelled 'hindrance' 

behaviour is spekked 'behavior'.

What does "You were caught lying and you refuse to admit when you are wrong which is often." This is not a complete semantically viable sentence on Earth.

Or, did you mean to say:

"Twas brillig, when the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe; All mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe. Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"

Flyjack has a good point!  The packets reportedly were essentially solid masses when found and the Ingram's reportedly had difficulty separating the bill when they tried to do so at their house.  So if in fact the Ingram's tried to wash them in the river, only the outer bills in the packets would be exposed to the water.  That leaves about 200 hundred bills that would not be exposed to the river water and I'll bet that 377's bill is one of those. 

 377 has previously posted that he paid a lot of money for his bill.  Would he shell out a lot of money for a highly damaged bill?

packets reportedly were essentially solid masses  ... where does that fiction come from?

Flyjack has a good point!  What point?  His point is pure fiction and a made up lie. We've been over this a million times, clear back in Cooper Kindergarten!   This is pure bullshit. 

Didnt everyone say the bills were limp and wet? Or am I making that up too?  Came out in pieces, according to Brian, or am I making that up too?   

Why do we have to revisit this ^%$*  ... just for FLYJACK !? Cant FLYJACK do some reading of the back thread on his own and get up to speede on his own, versus making stuff up as he (and you) go along?

Or didn't somebody say the money bills were packed in Cee-ment ?

Termites, packets,  packets reportedly were essentially solid masses . . . where in hell did all of that crap come from !!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Does anyone read the thread any more? Does it even matter? Apparently not. You just accuse somebody of making stuff up and that allows the accuser to make his own stuff up ---- a winning gamer strategy!

What comes next:   Flight 305 was a Curtis Jenny and Cooper was shooting hockey pucks off the wing?  and the packets of wings reportedly were actually essentially solidly massesly:

Long live the Revolution!    :rofl:           
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 03:19:53 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4636 on: February 13, 2020, 05:35:06 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Pictures used for ID. Japonica has pointed ends and a triangular base, formosa has the round tips.

what do you mean: pics used for id ? are these pics of the diatoms you found on the bill, or just reference pics from Google?   
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4637 on: February 13, 2020, 05:45:02 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All,

I have a big update for the Cooper Vortex. 377 let me take additional larger samples from his Cooper bill. I went through the largest of the pieces tonight under the SEM and found additional “hair pin” specimens. While we found these previously, the tubes were not fully intact. The latest ones are in 3D and allowed for species ID. We did not however find any entirely intact specimens with multiple spines.

Georger previously identified the “hair pins” as the diatom Asterionella and Flyjack found out that Asterionella formosa was a winter species and A. japonica was a summer species. Flyjack came up with a list of species in the Columbia and I was able to come up with pictures for most but not all of them. So I caution that new evidence could overthrow these findings but the missing species seem to be rare or contested. It turns out the only species we find on the bill is A. formosa, the winter species. The summer species japonica is WAY different than formosa so there is very little chance of confusion. So this data suggests that the money had a water transport phase that happened in winter and shortly thereafter was buried on Tena Bar.

Here is the reasoning. Given the spindly nature of these things and the fact we find a few of them together, means it is very unlikely that they would penetrate through the sand to get on the bills. One spine might get through but a couple would be highly unlikely to end up in the same place and we found several spots with multiple spines. If they could penetrate the sand we should find winter and summer species but we don’t.  We also know that it is unlikely they came from Brian Ingram washing them off in the river because he was there during the summer.

This is the first evidence based timing information that constrains when the money arrived on Tena Bar and the first new evidence since the money was found that I can think of. It supports a water transport phase before burial. It does not support a human burial on TB. It dismisses the dredge theory because that happens during the summer. It supports the timing of the jump in November but not for Cooper burying the money himself. It supports the western flight path theories where Cooper could have dropped some bundles during the free fall. It completely dismisses the multi-year transport across multiple waterways.

So this new diatom data supports a watery, winter arrival on Tena Bar. Bravo to 377 for letting me tear into his bill, he is now forever locked into the story of DB Cooper. This theory is based on research of several people, it would be good to get that verified. Pics to follow.

Tom Kaye

I already said - you need to consult real experts.

Flyjack found out that Asterionella formosa was a winter species and A. japonica was a summer species?  Please consult a real expert.

Your original photos show other species. Are they all winter species?  Please consult a real expert.

Your evidence so far indicates a winter only transport ?  Please consult a real expert.

Please consult a real expert about your speedy conclusions .......  about all of this. Tom, are you a Columbia River diatom expert?  Is FLYJACK an expert?

Concern: I dont see a living Asterionella formosa in any of your photos, is this species is a living=propagating winter species ONLY.  All I see are broken dead pieces of stems. Please consult a real expert. In contrast there may be one or two dt's that were living, in the presence of dead broken formosa ... are the other species you found winter only species?

It seems to me Tom you have a lot of groundwork to do before leaping to any conclusions, quickly. What's the rush to judgement? You havent even put one species in the context of the others on this bill.

And what in hell does Brian Ingram dipping the found money in the river got to do with any of this! Where did that idea or claim come from - FLYJACK?  Maybe Brian rubbed the money on wieners and mustard too? Maybe they filled the Wonder Bread sandwich bag with river water too?  Maybe cattle mutilators and ufos are involved, somehow ?

Please keep this within the boundaries of ......... the known vs the unknown speculative ??

 :-\
 

<edit>  * Do diatoms live in sand or do they only live in water ? Of course they live in sand - duhhhhhhhhhh! Especially sand that is exposed to water on a constant basis ...

Sand is full of algae called diatoms, but this environment is mixed about continuously so these organisms might get light one minute then be buried in the sediment with no oxygen the next. ... It is important to understand how these organisms survive in the environments in which they live.     You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login › releases › 2016/11

How sand 'holds its breath': Research into diatom survival on ...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:09:49 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4638 on: February 13, 2020, 06:35:42 AM »
I am surprised and shocked at just how 'messy?' this discussion has become. Tom only found the diatoms a short time ago and Im assuming he has not had time to even consult with an expert - except for FLYJACK?

Already conclusions are being made based on one diatom alone, and not even a living example of that species, but on broken pieces and parts of one species, which one non-expert says is a winter species ? That cannot be the whole story by a light year!  :D

Tom found somewhere between 4-7 different diatom species. So conclusions based on broken pieces and dead parts of one species, perhaps left over from a  prior season or a prior exposure somewhere,  in the presence of other species some of which may have been alive and viable when the money was exposed  . . . is premature theory making at best, to put it mildly.

At least consider the other species Tom found before leaping to conclusions, as is some people's habit   ...  :o 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:38:50 AM by georger »
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline andrade1812

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 497
  • Thanked: 69 times
    • My Website
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4639 on: February 13, 2020, 08:07:15 AM »
IF... The only species of diatoms found were winter species, then, at least in my mind, the most obvious time for these creatures to get on the bill was when it was near the surface in the sand at the high tide mark as described by the Fazios. The money was found wet, in February...

But before someone gets after me, I have no opinion on this. I believe an expert should be consulted. Certainly before we start declaring a western flight path.
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
  • Thanked: 80 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4640 on: February 13, 2020, 01:42:48 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
IF... The only species of diatoms found were winter species, then, at least in my mind, the most obvious time for these creatures to get on the bill was when it was near the surface in the sand at the high tide mark as described by the Fazios. The money was found wet, in February...

But before someone gets after me, I have no opinion on this. I believe an expert should be consulted. Certainly before we start declaring a western flight path.

On the matter of declaring a Western Flight Path, what qualifications would you require of your "expert"?  And exactly what are your qualifications for determining the "expert's" qualifications?  Full Disclosure:  I have more than a passing interest in this matter.

Robert Nicholson
(Robert99) 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:45:38 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline andrade1812

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 497
  • Thanked: 69 times
    • My Website
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4641 on: February 13, 2020, 01:48:44 PM »
I'm not sure there is a reasonable link between the flight path and diatoms on 377s Cooper bill.

I would want an expert to comment on how and where the bills picked up these specific diatoms. They certainly weren't picked up by the bills at 10000 feet in the air.
 
The following users thanked this post: Robert99

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4642 on: February 13, 2020, 03:09:11 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
IF... The only species of diatoms found were winter species, then, at least in my mind, the most obvious time for these creatures to get on the bill was when it was near the surface in the sand at the high tide mark as described by the Fazios. The money was found wet, in February...

But before someone gets after me, I have no opinion on this. I believe an expert should be consulted. Certainly before we start declaring a western flight path.

Are you an expert on Diatoms - too!   ;)

We have always known that diatoms and other biologicals might be important in the Cooper case. We made this known to people clear back before the Dropzone forum even existed! It's been a long rough road since then, waiting! We offered our services. I no more than posted that than 377 got into the game and offered his services, through his son. The field had suddenly become crowded and competitive.  ;)  We have always known that diatoms and other biologicals might be important in the Cooper case. It takes qualified people and laboratory services to make progress in matters of this kind. 

Tom has found the following diatoms on Cooper money, as best I can identify them. But I am not a diatom expert! I know people who are. I am fairly certain the photos I attach are diatoms. Several of these diatoms look like they were healthy and living to me, when they were embedded on a Cooper bill ... one diatom (A formosa) looks dead and in broken pieces only. Why would there be both living diatoms 'and' dead skeletonised A formosa on the same bill? But, I am no diatom expert. What is the whole interactive story of living and dead diatoms Tom has found on a Cooper bill?

What I suggest is we wait and work the problem ... before anyone starts theorizing. Tom can find an expert or two to consult with. If he cant I will suggest one we previously contacted and had a relationship with .. before Brian Ingram and his surrogate Father, Jerry Thomas, botched the whole thing causing a storm of protest and hard feelings!

It is an achievement that Tom has finally verified diatoms on Cooper money. That is only a start! I suggest we stick to basics and work the problem, before making any strong claims which will be difficult to retract - later.

Good luck!     "a" below is Asterionella formosa ... as you look at this photo, realize that diatoms take many and very diverse forms for all kinds of reasons ... diatoms are one of the most diverse genre in existence on Earth. Diatoms generally rely on photosynthesis for energy production, they are one of the primary oxygen producers on this planet, and they are a fundamental part of the food chain as life evolved on this planet. 
   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 05:40:55 PM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Thanked: 19 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4643 on: February 13, 2020, 07:01:03 PM »
I am writing this in response to 377's agreeing to further research being done on his Cooper bill.  Thank you for being so generous 377!  It is very much appreciated.    I was wondering if any Cooper bills or fragments come up for sale nowadays? If so, could we as a group possibly purchase such to be used for testing? I kind of feel guilty that 377 has to foot the bill all by himself. (so to speak)

 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Parrotheadvol

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
  • Thanked: 38 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4644 on: February 13, 2020, 09:31:17 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I am writing this in response to 377's agreeing to further research being done on his Cooper bill.  Thank you for being so generous 377!  It is very much appreciated.    I was wondering if any Cooper bills or fragments come up for sale nowadays? If so, could we as a group possibly purchase such to be used for testing? I kind of feel guilty that 377 has to foot the bill all by himself. (so to speak)

377 is generous indeed. I can't say that I would be willing to offer up my Cooper 20 for testing of any kind...if I had one.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4645 on: February 13, 2020, 11:39:32 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I am writing this in response to 377's agreeing to further research being done on his Cooper bill.  Thank you for being so generous 377!  It is very much appreciated.    I was wondering if any Cooper bills or fragments come up for sale nowadays? If so, could we as a group possibly purchase such to be used for testing? I kind of feel guilty that 377 has to foot the bill all by himself. (so to speak)

377 is generous indeed. I can't say that I would be willing to offer up my Cooper 20 for testing of any kind...if I had one.

... Cooper money specimens for testing have always been available, from several sources. This was explored years ago. The problem is unwillingness, lack of 'cooperate and ka muun cate'.  Maybe playing banjo helps! ?  Even the FBI would have had to get a Court Order through the Justice Dept to get it done. There just hasn't been the enlightenment to undo what Tosaw, the Ingrams, the insurance co, etal and the Court set in place for posterity! ;)  We need a breakthrough:

« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 12:15:30 AM by georger »
 
The following users thanked this post: haggarknew

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4646 on: February 14, 2020, 02:28:00 AM »
NEWS! FLYJACK CONTRADICTED BY LEADING DIATOM EXPERTS -

FLYJACK proposed, told Tom, that a-formosa was a winter blooming diatom. Tom passed that on to this group! Turns out FLYJACK is wrong. Quote:

"We isolated a chytrid parasite of the dominant spring bloom diatom, Asterionella formosa, (in the Lower Columbia) and sequenced DNA from several regions within the ribosomal RNA gene. We also investigated the specificity of ... " 

Then from another source: "Asterionella formosa is the dominate diatom every Spring in the Lower Columbia ... one which is routinely inspected for parasitic hosting of the fungal chytrid parasites ..."

This explains why Tom's photos show what they show. The money was found in Feb 1980 near the end of the winter diatom bloom. Tom's photos show a few apparently healthy fully developed diatoms, but only broken aged dead pieces of a-formosa which we now know to be a SPRING bloom vs winter bloom as FLYJACK AND TOM insisted! The facts of this matter cited by experts now seem to agree with and explain Tom's photos.

It is also quite obvious that Mr. FLYJACK doesn't know what he's talking about or is only guessing, and doesn't know the difference between a living and a dead diatom (parts!). Caution and skepticism are now warranted.

citation:  pdf You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 02:41:57 AM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Thanked: 19 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4647 on: February 14, 2020, 03:24:04 PM »
Roughly how much would a fragment of Cooper money cost?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 248 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4648 on: February 14, 2020, 03:29:37 PM »
FLYJACK is still arguing today - and muddying the waters further! Who said what when and WTF does it matter! If Tom misrepresented FJ, FJ needs to straighten it out with . . . Tom Kaye!

Tom posted: "and Flyjack found out that Asterionella formosa was a winter species and A. japonica was a summer species..."

Today FJ seems to be saying the correct ID is A japonica .... but I am not even sure he's saying that! I dont know what he's trying to say!  And frankly it does not matter.

What matters is whatever the correct id is, and whatever season Tom's asterionella blooms in, ALL OF THE ASTERIONELLA TOM PHOTOGRAPHED ARE 'PIECES AND PARTS OF NON LIVING DEAD ASTERIONELLA FROM SOME PREVIOUS SEASON"!

Here they are below -   

« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 05:28:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3474
  • Thanked: 198 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4649 on: February 14, 2020, 04:46:54 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Roughly how much would a fragment of Cooper money cost?

My understanding is that all the bills that are available for sale are all fragments - at best, perhaps 50-60% of a complete bill. Many are in the 30-40% range. The 2011 auction price was approximately $3,500. Not sure of current pricing.
 
The following users thanked this post: haggarknew