Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 444269 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4590 on: January 24, 2020, 05:44:18 PM »
There has to be a catalog of Lower Columbia Diatoms around somewhere - why doesn't somebody find one ?

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« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 05:54:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Darren

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4591 on: January 24, 2020, 05:50:08 PM »
Nice work Tom and Georger.

 :chr2:
The Cooper Vortex - A Podcast about DB Cooper - Available on most podcast apps
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4592 on: January 24, 2020, 05:59:52 PM »
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More pics. Hummm can't seem to get more than one at a time up. See the link.

PS we never did any "structural damage" testing or investigation into the money.

Tom Kaye

Tom one more question if I may:

Any sign of silver nitrate on 77's bill ?
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4593 on: January 24, 2020, 11:03:56 PM »
Bravo Georger!  Asterionella Looks like a good match.

No silver nitrate on the bill.

Tom Kaye
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 11:04:16 PM by Tom Kaye »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4594 on: January 24, 2020, 11:54:35 PM »
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Bravo Georger!  Asterionella Looks like a good match.

No silver nitrate on the bill.

Tom Kaye

Bravo to you Tom! You did a great job .... keep working on it....

Thanks to 377 too!   **I wonder how this bill escaped the finger printing ?  I hope there's more like it!

**All of the other diatoms Tom has shown are common types in the lower Columbia - I have many photos of these I will try to assemble into a small catalog with genus named, for future reference. Give me some time.   Here's an example below ... the morphological types fall into classes. Populations in different regions vary and can be used as a locator. I wish the pollen had worked out that way!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 03:10:53 AM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4595 on: January 25, 2020, 02:32:43 PM »
Flyjack posts:

Tom Kaye found a diatom on 377's Cooper bill, Georger Id'd it as Asterionella.
Asterionella is common in the Columbia River..

However, Asterionella japonoca is a spring and summer species while Asterionella formosa is a winter species...
So which one is it? 
 
Coulmbia River diatoms...

Plankton:
Phytoplankton communities consist of a diverse assemblage of diatoms and dinoflagellates have seasonally variable standing stocks and productivities. Common winter diatom species include Asterionella Formosa, Melosira islandica, and Thallassionema nitzschoides. Spring and summer assemblages are represented by Chaetoceros compressus, Asterionella japonica, and Rhizoselenia alata. Annual primary productivities range from approximately 200 mgC/m3/hr in spring to less than 5 mgC/m3/hr in winter. (Anderson, 19720)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 02:33:07 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4596 on: January 25, 2020, 03:45:01 PM »
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Flyjack posts:

Tom Kaye found a diatom on 377's Cooper bill, Georger Id'd it as Asterionella.
Asterionella is common in the Columbia River..

However, Asterionella japonoca is a spring and summer species while Asterionella formosa is a winter species...
So which one is it? 
 
Coulmbia River diatoms...

Plankton:
Phytoplankton communities consist of a diverse assemblage of diatoms and dinoflagellates have seasonally variable standing stocks and productivities. Common winter diatom species include Asterionella Formosa, Melosira islandica, and Thallassionema nitzschoides. Spring and summer assemblages are represented by Chaetoceros compressus, Asterionella japonica, and Rhizoselenia alata. Annual primary productivities range from approximately 200 mgC/m3/hr in spring to less than 5 mgC/m3/hr in winter. (Anderson, 19720)


In fact there are more species than Flyjack lists, in Washington alone, each a seasonal variant with different regionalisms that may overlap -

A. formosa - the most abundant on the Lower Columbia
A. gracillima
A. glacialis
A. japonica
A. kariana
A. nautica
A. gnomia
A. bleakeleyi
etc

Different morphology for each. A. formosa has long slender shafts. A. japonica has shorter thicker shafts. I guess Tom's photos are A. formosa ... a specialist needs to be consulted. What stands out to me in Tom's photos is the lack of a mature (joined) Asterionella. There are a large number of broken dis articulated shafts. Why?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 04:46:00 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4597 on: January 25, 2020, 03:59:21 PM »
Here is an example of a fully developed COLONY of individual mature Asterionellopsis glacialis that have colonized near the end of their seasonal life cycle. There are Asterionella that prefer ponds, mud holes, etc ... others prefer small streams ... others prefer rivers ... etc etc etc. And the same applies to other species of diatoms. What species of Asterionella and other diatom species dominate in certain areas of the Washougal vs the Columbia in the Caterpillar-Tina Bar area?  What diatoms dominate on the Cooper money samples?   
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 04:05:56 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4598 on: January 25, 2020, 05:06:53 PM »
Everything you ever wanted to know about: Diatoms ...  :chr2:

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Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4599 on: January 26, 2020, 01:50:09 AM »
I love it when the forum works like this! :)

Given the fact the bills have been smashed in folders their whole life, I would not think the star shapes of these diatoms would survive. I think the seasonal thing is very interesting. If the money was buried in the sand directly and did not float in via the river, then I would think that the diatoms made it in through the sand on a continuous basis. If that were the case then you would expect to see all seasons of diatoms represented in the mix. If the sand acted like a filter and would NOT allow diatoms into the bundles, then one could assume the money had to have been exposed to the water at some time. If the sand acted as a barrier, and there was only ONE season of diatoms represented on the bill, then we have a time of year for the water exposure (not the burial unfortunately). Could be the first real break on the timing of the money event.

Another option is for 377 to let me sample a larger area of the bill. The fragments that we took were pretty small to do an inventory.  He must be pleased with this line of investigation!

Stay on it!

Tom Kaye
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 01:52:47 AM by Tom Kaye »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4600 on: January 26, 2020, 02:06:30 AM »
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I love it when the forum works like this! :)

Given the fact the bills have been smashed in folders their whole life, I would not think the star shapes of these diatoms would survive. I think the seasonal thing is very interesting. If the money was buried in the sand directly and did not float in via the river, then I would think that the diatoms made it in through the sand on a continuous basis. If that were the case then you would expect to see all seasons of diatoms represented in the mix. If the sand acted like a filter and would NOT allow diatoms into the bundles, then one could assume the money had to have been exposed to the water at some time. If the sand acted as a barrier, and there was only ONE season of diatoms represented on the bill, then we have a time of year for the water exposure (not the burial unfortunately). Could be the first real break on the timing of the money event.

Another option is for 377 to let me sample a larger area of the bill. The fragments that we took were pretty small to do an inventory.  He must be pleased with this line of investigation!

Stay on it!

Tom Kaye

I like it!   :congrats:

Lets get the other diatoms id'd ... Im working on a catalog stressing lower columbia ... gal at portland state sent me a whole file of photos but none of them labeled! aaaaaaaargh! so Im trying to get labels from her and others ... never a dull moment in this business!   ;)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 02:13:14 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4601 on: January 26, 2020, 05:29:05 PM »
All of Tom's diatoms have been identified - all are common in the Fazio-Caterpiller Island area of the Columbia. No surprises so far ...   
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 05:30:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4602 on: January 26, 2020, 06:09:00 PM »
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All of Tom's diatoms have been identified - all are common in the Fazio-Caterpiller Island area of the Columbia. No surprises so far ...   

Georger should sit down before he reads the following.  Nevertheless, he will probably still go ballistic.

Okay, based on the "No surprises so far ...", it is reasonably safe to say that there is nothing to suggest at this time that the money was ever anywhere except in the "Fazio-Caterpiller (sic)" area.

I'll even spot you the probability that they three packets were were still in the original money bag when they were deposited at the location where they were found.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 06:45:27 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4603 on: January 26, 2020, 07:48:14 PM »
This is all meaningless unless we have a control sample we can compare it to...
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4604 on: January 26, 2020, 11:42:53 PM »
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This is all meaningless unless we have a control sample we can compare it to...

How would a control sample fit into this?  It is an absolutely safe assumption that nothing from the Columbia River was on those bills when they were given to Cooper.  And everything that has been identified so far is, according to Georger, consistent with the money find location.