Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1178314 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4560 on: January 19, 2020, 10:17:23 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Cooper's body would have been at the bottom of the river until spring 1972, then it would have "popped" and flowed out with the river and found itself in the Pacific Ocean...

Don't jump to any conclusions about the river warming up during the spring.  The spring run off from the Cascade Mountains just east of Portland is melted ice and the water probably stays quite cold throughout the year, your friends 10 degrees Celsius to the contrary.  Even if the body produced some gases eventually, they have to be sufficient to lift not only the body but about 45 pounds or so of parachutes and money bags.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4561 on: January 19, 2020, 11:22:44 PM »
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Who here has actually discussed the money find with the Fazios? I have, face-to-face multiple times.

The following is my understanding of what Richard Fazio leans towards in terms of an explanation for the money find:

Richard told me that he tends to think that the money was washed up onto Tena Bar very soon before the money was found.

Here's the problem: The rubberbands.

The rubberbands prove that the money could not have washed up onto Tena Bar immediately before February 10, 1980 and self-buried.

Its important to get some facts straight, here.

1. The FBI files record that the older Fazio (Al?) said pretty much what Ulis says Richard told him:  'Richard Fazio, told me that he tends to think that the money was washed up onto Tena Bar very soon before the money was found.'. But the FBI file and agents interviewed add Al Fazio saying: 'came up with the last high tide ... and he pointed to the last high tide line' (which was still wet).

Why would the Fazios pick the 'high tide' as the time and circumstance of the money delivery? The answer was simple. Al Fazio told me (and the FBI) ... 'the tides bring most of the debris to the beach and leave it. Even large logs. It comes up with the tide and when the tide recedes it settles down and stays...' So it's the complete cycle of 'bringing and leaving material' that the tides represent. The tides, according to the Fazios, account for 99% of the debris left on Tina Bar. It makes sense they would apply the same principle to the money fund at Tina Bar.

2. Tom Kaye's experiments with rubber bands are confusing and incomplete, and have lead to false interpretations of exactly what the Ingrams saw and found. The Ingram descriptions (plural!) are contradictory and impossible. The chemistry and aging of rubber bands is very well understood as a 'melt transition cycle'. And, exposure to UV speeds up the melt-transition process. The chemical bonds that bond latex and sulfur together literally come apart when exposed to UV. Indeed, as Tom Kaye points out, ozone detectors used to be made using rubber bands! Look that up.

Short of the Tina Bar money having been delivered from the bank to Tina Bar the day before, there is no way in hell the rubber bands on the bundles could have been still pliable, holding the bundles together, AND 'crumbled to dust when touched' all at the same time. That's contradictory. Crystalized bands that crumble to the touch have no pliability and no holding power - period! Tom Kay didnt have to do any tests - the knowledge base on rubber band chemistry has been well known for 100+ years.

The sad fact is there could have been all kinds of forensic tests run on the band remnants which came along with the Ingram money, but none of those tests were performed! Some of those tests might have provided clues as to the history of the money since being given to Cooper, then winding up on Tina Bar.

But, the bands on the found money were not viable or had any holding power - whatever. They were not holding anything together! Remember, they crumbled to dust when touched. That is a band that has passed fully through its melt-transition phase.   
     

Isn't this what Eric Ulis has already pointed out?

Never heard him talk about melt transition phases. I have no idea what he's saying about the bands. Or not saying.  Ive never heard him talk about the particles on the tie. I dont think he has a forensic background? Why would anyone consult with Eric Ulis on the chemistry of rubber bands!?

Ive never heard you talk about the bands in forensic terms? Or the tie particles.

What would you compare bands in the gooey stage to?
1. deer poop
2. sour milk
3. running water
4. pine tree resin 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 12:00:23 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4562 on: January 19, 2020, 11:24:55 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Why not ask the money where it came from and how, and when?

Everything else is speculation.  ;)

I'll bet 377 had already done that.

Ive never heard him say he had his bill(s) tested ?  I have heard him say he was willing to have his bill tested.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4563 on: January 20, 2020, 09:26:13 AM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Cooper's body would have been at the bottom of the river until spring 1972, then it would have "popped" and flowed out with the river and found itself in the Pacific Ocean...

Don't jump to any conclusions about the river warming up during the spring.  The spring run off from the Cascade Mountains just east of Portland is melted ice and the water probably stays quite cold throughout the year, your friends 10 degrees Celsius to the contrary.  Even if the body produced some gases eventually, they have to be sufficient to lift not only the body but about 45 pounds or so of parachutes and money bags.

Do bodies never experience microbial bloating in the Columbia? This should be verifiable as I'm sure there have been drownings and suicides in the area over the last 49 years...
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4564 on: January 20, 2020, 01:08:05 PM »
Let’s not get carried away about temperatures in the Mighty Columbia ! Temperatures vary wildly depending upon locations and time of year. I’ve been water skiing and fishing the river most of my life ! In the Vancouver area the river warms to the low 70’s and in January the temperature can dip into the 30’s. I checked a chart and November would probably be mid 40’s. On June 30,2015, a temperature of 71 was recorded at Bonneville Dam and temperatures are of course warmer in Portland area.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4565 on: January 20, 2020, 01:34:45 PM »
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Let’s not get carried away about temperatures in the Mighty Columbia ! Temperatures vary wildly depending upon locations and time of year. I’ve been water skiing and fishing the river most of my life ! In the Vancouver area the river warms to the low 70’s and in January the temperature can dip into the 30’s. I checked a chart and November would probably be mid 40’s. On June 30,2015, a temperature of 71 was recorded at Bonneville Dam and temperatures are of course warmer in Portland area.

When I was about 10 years old, I did a lot of swimming in the Wenatchee River.  This was at a point about three miles before the Wenatchee emptied into the Columbia River at Wenatchee, WA.  Even in mid-summer, the Wenatchee was extremely cold and basically just melted ice.  The Great Amazon and I discussed this at some length a number of years ago on DropZone.  She was also familiar with that area.

My guess is that probably everything downstream from about the The Dalles is essentially recently melted snow.  There are about a dozen dams on the Columbia and its tributaries between the Coulee and Bonneville dams.  Basically, what starts at the Coulee dam is probably going to be diverted for agricultural purposes long before it gets past the Wenatchee area.

If the water temperature measured 71 degrees at Bonneville Dam, I would suggest that they get their thermometer checked.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4566 on: January 20, 2020, 02:05:07 PM »
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Let’s not get carried away about temperatures in the Mighty Columbia ! Temperatures vary wildly depending upon locations and time of year. I’ve been water skiing and fishing the river most of my life ! In the Vancouver area the river warms to the low 70’s and in January the temperature can dip into the 30’s. I checked a chart and November would probably be mid 40’s. On June 30,2015, a temperature of 71 was recorded at Bonneville Dam and temperatures are of course warmer in Portland area.

When I was about 10 years old, I did a lot of swimming in the Wenatchee River.  This was at a point about three miles before the Wenatchee emptied into the Columbia River at Wenatchee, WA.  Even in mid-summer, the Wenatchee was extremely cold and basically just melted ice.  The Great Amazon and I discussed this at some length a number of years ago on DropZone.  She was also familiar with that area.

My guess is that probably everything downstream from about the The Dalles is essentially recently melted snow.  There are about a dozen dams on the Columbia and its tributaries between the Coulee and Bonneville dams.  Basically, what starts at the Coulee dam is probably going to be diverted for agricultural purposes long before it gets past the Wenatchee area.

If the water temperature measured 71 degrees at Bonneville Dam, I would suggest that they get their thermometer checked.
At some point in time, it’s best to just say you were incorrect Robert ! Of course you seem to always know more and even though records have been kept going back to the early 40’s, I guess they are all wrong ! Temperatures in the 70’s are not unusual in the Columbia in the Vancouver and Portland area in the summer months.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4567 on: January 20, 2020, 03:20:50 PM »
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Let’s not get carried away about temperatures in the Mighty Columbia ! Temperatures vary wildly depending upon locations and time of year. I’ve been water skiing and fishing the river most of my life ! In the Vancouver area the river warms to the low 70’s and in January the temperature can dip into the 30’s. I checked a chart and November would probably be mid 40’s. On June 30,2015, a temperature of 71 was recorded at Bonneville Dam and temperatures are of course warmer in Portland area.

When I was about 10 years old, I did a lot of swimming in the Wenatchee River.  This was at a point about three miles before the Wenatchee emptied into the Columbia River at Wenatchee, WA.  Even in mid-summer, the Wenatchee was extremely cold and basically just melted ice.  The Great Amazon and I discussed this at some length a number of years ago on DropZone.  She was also familiar with that area.

My guess is that probably everything downstream from about the The Dalles is essentially recently melted snow.  There are about a dozen dams on the Columbia and its tributaries between the Coulee and Bonneville dams.  Basically, what starts at the Coulee dam is probably going to be diverted for agricultural purposes long before it gets past the Wenatchee area.

If the water temperature measured 71 degrees at Bonneville Dam, I would suggest that they get their thermometer checked.
At some point in time, it’s best to just say you were incorrect Robert ! Of course you seem to always know more and even though records have been kept going back to the early 40’s, I guess they are all wrong ! Temperatures in the 70’s are not unusual in the Columbia in the Vancouver and Portland area in the summer months.

I didn't realize that there must be some volcanic activity under the Columbia River Gorge that heats that ice water that is coming off the Cascade Mountains.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4568 on: January 21, 2020, 12:44:52 AM »
Whatever the source of the heat, the waters of the Columbia are delightful to swim in during the summer.

I have swum downstream of The Dalles in July and it was fine. I have swum at Tina Bar in August, and it was sublime. At T-Bar on that day, the air temp was 105 degrees F, btw... so maybe the toasty-woasty water temps may be due to processes less dramatic than subterranean volcanic disturbances....

In fact, Robert, the last time I was at T-Bar with you in 2016 and it was a hot day. Remember? I so wanted to dive in and go for a swim while the filming was on-going, but the best that I could do was put my fingers into the water. It felt wonderful.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 12:45:31 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4569 on: January 21, 2020, 12:50:14 AM »
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I didn't realize that there must be some volcanic activity under the Columbia River Gorge that heats that ice water that is coming off the Cascade Mountains.


Another thought on swimming in Cooper Country. Often, I swim in Alder Lake outside of Eatonville. The lake is actually part of the dammed-up portion of the Nisqually River and its waters are directly fed by glacial run-off from the Nisqually Glacier on Mount Rainier. In fact, as I swim on my back and paddle around, I can see Mount Rainier off to the east in all of its icy glory. It's quite a Zen experience to swim in water on a hot day and see thirty miles away the glaciers that are feeding my lake.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4570 on: January 21, 2020, 11:16:25 AM »
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Whatever the source of the heat, the waters of the Columbia are delightful to swim in during the summer.

I have swum downstream of The Dalles in July and it was fine. I have swum at Tina Bar in August, and it was sublime. At T-Bar on that day, the air temp was 105 degrees F, btw... so maybe the toasty-woasty water temps may be due to processes less dramatic than subterranean volcanic disturbances....

In fact, Robert, the last time I was at T-Bar with you in 2016 and it was a hot day. Remember? I so wanted to dive in and go for a swim while the filming was on-going, but the best that I could do was put my fingers into the water. It felt wonderful.

That 2016 day was about 90 degrees and I didn't stick my finger or anything else in the water.  I guess I was distracted by the duck that insisted on following me around.

Would you happen to have a link to the water temperatures at Bonneville Dam and specifically where those temperatures were measured?  I can't seem to find them on the Internet.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4571 on: January 21, 2020, 11:22:45 AM »
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I didn't realize that there must be some volcanic activity under the Columbia River Gorge that heats that ice water that is coming off the Cascade Mountains.


Another thought on swimming in Cooper Country. Often, I swim in Alder Lake outside of Eatonville. The lake is actually part of the dammed-up portion of the Nisqually River and its waters are directly fed by glacial run-off from the Nisqually Glacier on Mount Rainier. In fact, as I swim on my back and paddle around, I can see Mount Rainier off to the east in all of its icy glory. It's quite a Zen experience to swim in water on a hot day and see thirty miles away the glaciers that are feeding my lake.

Wonderful!  Wonderful!
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4572 on: January 21, 2020, 01:18:06 PM »
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Whatever the source of the heat, the waters of the Columbia are delightful to swim in during the summer.

I have swum downstream of The Dalles in July and it was fine. I have swum at Tina Bar in August, and it was sublime. At T-Bar on that day, the air temp was 105 degrees F, btw... so maybe the toasty-woasty water temps may be due to processes less dramatic than subterranean volcanic disturbances....

In fact, Robert, the last time I was at T-Bar with you in 2016 and it was a hot day. Remember? I so wanted to dive in and go for a swim while the filming was on-going, but the best that I could do was put my fingers into the water. It felt wonderful.

That 2016 day was about 90 degrees and I didn't stick my finger or anything else in the water.  I guess I was distracted by the duck that insisted on following me around.

Would you happen to have a link to the water temperatures at Bonneville Dam and specifically where those temperatures were measured?  I can't seem to find them on the Internet.

Columbia Temps before and after the Willamette confluence at Portland may be different ?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 01:29:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4573 on: January 21, 2020, 01:42:49 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Why not ask the money where it came from and how, and when?

Everything else is speculation.  ;)

I'll bet 377 had already done that.

Ive never heard him say he had his bill(s) tested ?  I have heard him say he was willing to have his bill tested.
[/b]

TK has my bill and has run some tests on it. I even gave him permission to do some destructive testing if it might help, hoping for as small a destroyed sample as possible. Science FIRST!

I'll leave it to Tom to report his results.

377
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 01:44:21 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4574 on: January 21, 2020, 03:53:25 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Why not ask the money where it came from and how, and when?

Everything else is speculation.  ;)

I'll bet 377 had already done that.

Ive never heard him say he had his bill(s) tested ?  I have heard him say he was willing to have his bill tested.
[/b]

TK has my bill and has run some tests on it. I even gave him permission to do some destructive testing if it might help, hoping for as small a destroyed sample as possible. Science FIRST!

I'll leave it to Tom to report his results.

377

By my "I'll bet 377 had (sic) already done that." remark I simply meant that 377 had probably cross-examined his Cooper bill.  And that was in response to Georger's suggestion to "Ask the money where it came from and how, and when?".