Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 423263 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4380 on: September 03, 2019, 04:54:18 PM »
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Quote

This is all well known and documented. Between 1970-1980 the find site was never under water in the Columbia River. Other people's speculations and claims are irrelevant and wrong.
 

This is just more baloney from Georger!  He posted a chart recently that disproves his own claim!

In mid-February 1980 when the FBI was working at the Tina Bar site, the Columbia River level there was well below 5 feet above sea level.  The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line.  From all appearances, the FBI people were generally never more than about 2 or 3 feet above the river water level.  Admittedly, the FBI expert did move up into the trees as he attempted to determine the layers of earth at the site.

The Columbia River water level data is available from the National Weather Service from about 1973 to well past 1980.  I downloaded it several years ago but don't have it at the present time.  However, if I can find that link, I will post it and everyone on this site can judge for themselves what the level was at the Tina Bar site.

Kermit should be able to set Georger straight based on his own knowledge of the river level from 1971 to the present time.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4381 on: September 03, 2019, 05:46:13 PM »
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Quote

This is all well known and documented. Between 1970-1980 the find site was never under water in the Columbia River. Other people's speculations and claims are irrelevant and wrong.
 

This is just more baloney from Georger!  He posted a chart recently that disproves his own claim!

In mid-February 1980 when the FBI was working at the Tina Bar site, the Columbia River level there was well below 5 feet above sea level.  The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line.  From all appearances, the FBI people were generally never more than about 2 or 3 feet above the river water level.  Admittedly, the FBI expert did move up into the trees as he attempted to determine the layers of earth at the site.

The Columbia River water level data is available from the National Weather Service from about 1973 to well past 1980.  I downloaded it several years ago but don't have it at the present time.  However, if I can find that link, I will post it and everyone on this site can judge for themselves what the level was at the Tina Bar site.

Kermit should be able to set Georger straight based on his own knowledge of the river level from 1971 to the present time.

LEARN HOW TO POST! YOUR POSY EDITORIAL VIOLATES FORUM STANDARDS.

ARE YOU BLIND! ?

You blurt: "The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line"

Fact: Only Crystal Ingram contended that! You apparently havent read forum posts since 2003! So go back and read the thread. Forget me! I thought you knew this material?

The FBI staked out the Ingram find site at 40ft above the water line. Now maybe the Ingrams were lying? But you know more than anyone about this so . . . .  post away ...... but post in forum standards after the {/quote} marker? Do you see it?  ;) 

Have you got more incompetent moral advice for Florida hurricane victims today!?   :rofl:

Have you got any more incompetent comments to make about my senility!?   :rofl:

Cheers! 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 06:12:15 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4382 on: September 03, 2019, 07:22:58 PM »
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Quote

This is all well known and documented. Between 1970-1980 the find site was never under water in the Columbia River. Other people's speculations and claims are irrelevant and wrong.
 

This is just more baloney from Georger!  He posted a chart recently that disproves his own claim!

In mid-February 1980 when the FBI was working at the Tina Bar site, the Columbia River level there was well below 5 feet above sea level.  The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line.  From all appearances, the FBI people were generally never more than about 2 or 3 feet above the river water level.  Admittedly, the FBI expert did move up into the trees as he attempted to determine the layers of earth at the site.

The Columbia River water level data is available from the National Weather Service from about 1973 to well past 1980.  I downloaded it several years ago but don't have it at the present time.  However, if I can find that link, I will post it and everyone on this site can judge for themselves what the level was at the Tina Bar site.

Kermit should be able to set Georger straight based on his own knowledge of the river level from 1971 to the present time.

LEARN HOW TO POST! YOUR POSY EDITORIAL VIOLATES FORUM STANDARDS.

ARE YOU BLIND! ?

You blurt: "The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line"

Fact: Only Crystal Ingram contended that! You apparently havent read forum posts since 2003! So go back and read the thread. Forget me! I thought you knew this material?

The FBI staked out the Ingram find site at 40ft above the water line. Now maybe the Ingrams were lying? But you know more than anyone about this so . . . .  post away ...... but post in forum standards after the {/quote} marker? Do you see it?  ;) 

Have you got more incompetent moral advice for Florida hurricane victims today!?   :rofl:

Have you got any more incompetent comments to make about my senility!?   :rofl:

Cheers!

Forty feet ABOVE the water line?  That is nonsense.  If that were the case, Portland International Airport (which is 30 feet above sea level) would have been under 10 feet of water.

The FBI probably staked things up to 40 feet FROM the water line.  That clearly shows in the pictures taken during the days the FBI agents were at Tina Bar.

The highest point in the immediate Tina Bar area is probably no more than 30 feet ABOVE SEA LEVEL.

If you have been reading the posts on this site recently, you should know that my advice to anyone in southern Florida and vicinity is that they should have been making plans for hurricanes when they were drawing up the blue prints for their houses.  You simply don't wait until the day before a hurricane or tornado arrives to start making plans for them.

 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4383 on: September 03, 2019, 11:32:43 PM »
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Quote

This is all well known and documented. Between 1970-1980 the find site was never under water in the Columbia River. Other people's speculations and claims are irrelevant and wrong.
 

This is just more baloney from Georger!  He posted a chart recently that disproves his own claim!

In mid-February 1980 when the FBI was working at the Tina Bar site, the Columbia River level there was well below 5 feet above sea level.  The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line.  From all appearances, the FBI people were generally never more than about 2 or 3 feet above the river water level.  Admittedly, the FBI expert did move up into the trees as he attempted to determine the layers of earth at the site.

The Columbia River water level data is available from the National Weather Service from about 1973 to well past 1980.  I downloaded it several years ago but don't have it at the present time.  However, if I can find that link, I will post it and everyone on this site can judge for themselves what the level was at the Tina Bar site.

Kermit should be able to set Georger straight based on his own knowledge of the river level from 1971 to the present time.

LEARN HOW TO POST! YOUR POSY EDITORIAL VIOLATES FORUM STANDARDS.

ARE YOU BLIND! ?

You blurt: "The Ingrams indicated they found the money close to the river water line"

Fact: Only Crystal Ingram contended that! You apparently havent read forum posts since 2003! So go back and read the thread. Forget me! I thought you knew this material?

The FBI staked out the Ingram find site at 40ft above the water line. Now maybe the Ingrams were lying? But you know more than anyone about this so . . . .  post away ...... but post in forum standards after the {/quote} marker? Do you see it?  ;) 

Have you got more incompetent moral advice for Florida hurricane victims today!?   :rofl:

Have you got any more incompetent comments to make about my senility!?   :rofl:

Cheers!

Forty feet ABOVE the water line?  That is nonsense.  If that were the case, Portland International Airport (which is 30 feet above sea level) would have been under 10 feet of water.

The FBI probably staked things up to 40 feet FROM the water line.  That clearly shows in the pictures taken during the days the FBI agents were at Tina Bar.

The highest point in the immediate Tina Bar area is probably no more than 30 feet ABOVE SEA LEVEL.

If you have been reading the posts on this site recently, you should know that my advice to anyone in southern Florida and vicinity is that they should have been making plans for hurricanes when they were drawing up the blue prints for their houses.  You simply don't wait until the day before a hurricane or tornado arrives to start making plans for them.

You apparently have lost language skills. Look at the picture.

*No cause for torqued bills is known. We dont even know where in the bundles of bills Tom's sample came from. You keep saying it was water flow pressure. Maybe it was gravity, impact force, dredge pipe pressure, FJ's termites, or a moose, or cattle...  :)   
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 12:08:01 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4384 on: September 03, 2019, 11:51:48 PM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

How does this put the money being buried on November 24, 1971 in jeopardy? If the money is a foot or two down why would high water in '72 and '74 be a problem?

Since the money was found an inch or two under the sand in 1980, it would have to have been underwater at some point (and probably was several times) before that time.  And that is no problem whatsoever.

Remember that Tom Kaye has posted evidence that one of the packets had been "torqued".  That is, it only had a single band near one end and some of the bills had been rotated with respect to the others and the portion of the bills between the band and the longer end had been torn off and was missing.  This is no problem either.

The torqueing is clear evidence that the packet had been exposed to flowing water.  It would probably require several cycles of drying and wetting to weaken the paper to the point that it tears easily.  It also may indicate that the torqueing was done at a different location.

Tom identified three bills askew or torqued. The rest of the bills underneath the top three were aligned properly. Additionally, apparently this was evident for only one of the three packets.

In my mind this indicates that the bills were buried dry in a hole probably two feet or so deep. The top three bills being askew could easily have happened as the bills were thrown in the hole and buried.

It is apparent that in addition to rain water that migrated from the surface to the bills, there was also river water that occasionally reached the bills during a couple of high-water events. In fact, it appears that there may have only been two high-water events before the money was discovered in 1980--June of 1972 and June of 1974.

This makes perfect sense. In part, because Tom's analysis showed virtually no damage to bills that were buried for 33 months as part of a test. Remember, 377's Cooper twenty--which is a very complete sample--lost about 75% of its original profile due to rotting away while buried. Simply put, this is more evidence that the bills were buried for a very long time.

apparently this was evident for only one of the three packets.

What packets?

Were your packets bound with paper straps or rubber bands, or both? What bank official did you talk to?

What's your definition of a "packet"?  Is a packet a bundle?  Is a packet a parcel?   :))  Were there parcels of packets of bundles? Is packet a prime number?

*Carr used the term bundle.
*The bank people Carr talked to used the word bundle/bundles. No paper straps were involved. Only rubber bands.
*Is 'packet' an official banking term, used by whom/when at what bank?
*Do you know the difference between colloquial use of words vs. technical use of words/terms?
*Was Tina Mucklow a bank employee using technical banking language?
*Were FBI agents using technical banking terms when they wrote or talked about the Cooper ransom money?
*If "parcel" is used in an official FBI 302 is that word being used as a technical banking term, and if so what does the term mean and not mean?
 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 12:22:37 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4385 on: September 04, 2019, 01:25:54 AM »
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Am I alone in seeing the money location being underwater before 1974, thus putting the idea the money was buried there shortly after the hijacking in jeopardy?

How does this put the money being buried on November 24, 1971 in jeopardy? If the money is a foot or two down why would high water in '72 and '74 be a problem?

Since the money was found an inch or two under the sand in 1980, it would have to have been underwater at some point (and probably was several times) before that time.  And that is no problem whatsoever.

Remember that Tom Kaye has posted evidence that one of the packets had been "torqued".  That is, it only had a single band near one end and some of the bills had been rotated with respect to the others and the portion of the bills between the band and the longer end had been torn off and was missing.  This is no problem either.

The torqueing is clear evidence that the packet had been exposed to flowing water.  It would probably require several cycles of drying and wetting to weaken the paper to the point that it tears easily.  It also may indicate that the torqueing was done at a different location.

Tom identified three bills askew or torqued. The rest of the bills underneath the top three were aligned properly. Additionally, apparently this was evident for only one of the three packets.

In my mind this indicates that the bills were buried dry in a hole probably two feet or so deep. The top three bills being askew could easily have happened as the bills were thrown in the hole and buried.

It is apparent that in addition to rain water that migrated from the surface to the bills, there was also river water that occasionally reached the bills during a couple of high-water events. In fact, it appears that there may have only been two high-water events before the money was discovered in 1980--June of 1972 and June of 1974.

This makes perfect sense. In part, because Tom's analysis showed virtually no damage to bills that were buried for 33 months as part of a test. Remember, 377's Cooper twenty--which is a very complete sample--lost about 75% of its original profile due to rotting away while buried. Simply put, this is more evidence that the bills were buried for a very long time.

apparently this was evident for only one of the three packets.

What packets?

Were your packets bound with paper straps or rubber bands, or both? What bank official did you talk to?

What's your definition of a "packet"?  Is a packet a bundle?  Is a packet a parcel?   :))  Were there parcels of packets of bundles? Is packet a prime number?

*Carr used the term bundle.
*The bank people Carr talked to used the word bundle/bundles. No paper straps were involved. Only rubber bands.
*Is 'packet' an official banking term, used by whom/when at what bank?
*Do you know the difference between colloquial use of words vs. technical use of words/terms?
*Was Tina Mucklow a bank employee using technical banking language?
*Were FBI agents using technical banking terms when they wrote or talked about the Cooper ransom money?
*If "parcel" is used in an official FBI 302 is that word being used as a technical banking term, and if so what does the term mean and not mean?

Georger, just get a good nights sleep.  The world will look different tomorrow.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4386 on: November 26, 2019, 11:50:09 AM »
I visited Tena Bar last week and took some pictures and video.

I added three new pictures of the Tena Bar money find spot--taken last week--to the article I wrote earlier in the year about the spot. The new pictures are the last three in the article which can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4387 on: November 27, 2019, 12:49:55 AM »
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I visited Tena Bar last week and took some pictures and video.

I added three new pictures of the Tena Bar money find spot--taken last week--to the article I wrote earlier in the year about the spot. The new pictures are the last three in the article which can be found at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

One man talking/posting is not a discussion. Tom wont come and discuss anything. Points Ive raised are never answered. So, its just you and you alone, and sometimes R99, posting with yourself on this topic I guess.

Meanwhile the Columbia still flows north across the place where the dredging materials were deposited in two locations in '74, and all locations given or claimed for the Ingram find are north of those locations by a short distance. A distance the Columbia flowing water crosses in mere seconds, as it did in 71, 80, 2009, and today. Somethings do not change and cannot change regardless of people's claims and wishes.  ;D 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 12:54:03 AM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4388 on: November 27, 2019, 03:41:28 AM »
Are there any pics of Tena Bar from 1971? I think it would interesting to see what it looked like at the time of the hijacking.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4389 on: November 27, 2019, 03:49:29 AM »
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Are there any pics of Tena Bar from 1971? I think it would interesting to see what it looked like at the time of the hijacking.

August 1970 is the closest I have. Its a USGS photo. The hi res version is 22mb !
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 03:50:33 AM by georger »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4390 on: November 27, 2019, 05:02:56 AM »
Thanks Georger.  Pretty cool pic. I think it would be interesting to see the actual money find location pointed out on this pic. Also I didn't realize how big the retention pond was. (is?)  Maybe what I am looking at isn't actually the retention pond?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4391 on: November 27, 2019, 10:04:35 AM »
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Thanks Georger.  Pretty cool pic. I think it would be interesting to see the actual money find location pointed out on this pic. Also I didn't realize how big the retention pond was. (is?)  Maybe what I am looking at isn't actually the retention pond?

I created a "Tena Bar Through the Years" timeline sometime ago that is available at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The money find spot in each image is noted by the white dot.

The retention pond is very difficult to see in Georger's pic. Therefore, I assume you're looking at something else.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 10:05:55 AM by EU »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4392 on: November 27, 2019, 11:09:56 AM »
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Thanks Georger.  Pretty cool pic. I think it would be interesting to see the actual money find location pointed out on this pic. Also I didn't realize how big the retention pond was. (is?)  Maybe what I am looking at isn't actually the retention pond?

I created a "Tena Bar Through the Years" timeline sometime ago that is available at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The money find spot in each image is noted by the white dot.

The retention pond is very difficult to see in Georger's pic. Therefore, I assume you're looking at something else.

Note that there is a pencil circle at about the junction of the berm or road that angles off to the northeast and the beach.  This seems to be the same circle that Eric discussed a couple of days ago and he says the money find location is north of this circle.

The southwest corner of the retention pond is immediately adjacent to the Tina Bar gate.  And you do need to check other pictures to get a better idea of its size.  The retention pond is dry and I have never seen anything in it to suggest that it was ever actually used. 

Meyer Louie and I went over it extremely thoroughly with metal detectors a few years ago and didn't find a single thing.  And the equipment we used was supposed to be good down to a depth of about three feet.  The soil is extremely sandy and we were told by a local individual that he had never seen anything from the pond going into the river or from the river into the pond. 
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4393 on: November 27, 2019, 01:44:02 PM »
The Tena Bar money find mystery is so damned frustrating to me that I am tempted to ignore it. I'd sleep better if I could just forget about it. After all, it is unlikely to tell us who Cooper was. It is, however, relevant to the flight path or Cooper's egress route or possibly even his fate as a drowning victim. 

I thought I had a good explanation, that Brian's father had planted it there and subtly led his kid to unearth it. My theory was that Brian's dad had found or come into possession of a large cache of Cooper money (possibly badly damaged) and wanted to find out what would happen if it was publically surfaced. Would NWA's insurance company claim it? What better way to find out than to have an innocent kid find some of the loot and bring it to the attention of the FBI? The evidence of a chard field, however, blew my theory to hell. 

I have loaned my Tena Bar twenty to Tom Kaye and given him permission to do tests on it, even destructive testing, asking that he destroy as little of the bill as possible. Tom and his team have added huge value in their tie discoveries and analysis. Maybe they will find something on the twenty that helps in the investigation. Fingers crossed.

Many thanks to Eric for Coopercon 2019. The modest ticket price didn't come close to covering his expenses. The 50th anniversary of Nojak in November of 2021 has the potential for vastly increasing the size and scope of Coopercon. I hope it realizes its full potential then.

377

 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4394 on: November 27, 2019, 01:46:04 PM »
Here is a blowup.

Once again:  the FBI office at Seattle has or had a large file of hi-res photos of Tina Bar, their excavation, etc. Tom used these photos to determine the location of the claimed Ingram find; the location was identified and staked out by the FBI based on Harold's identification. Tom had some of these photos with him when he and Carr met at Tina Bar to find the original location. Not sure if Tom still has copies of these original photos? Also not sure if a surveyor was brought in ...
 
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