DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 08:34:12 AM

Title: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on February 24, 2014, 08:34:12 AM
On Feb. 10, 1980, 8-year-old Brian Ingram and his family were picnicking by the Columbia River near Vancouver, Wash., when Brian found a clue to a real-life mystery story that had been written shortly after he was born. While clearing a spot for a camp fire, "I got down to use my hand and arm to scoop the sand clear," recalls Brian, now 15. "I hit this sort of lump and dug it out. I wasn't excited at all at first, then I brushed the sand off, and it was money!"

The soggy, semisolidified packet of 299 identifiable $20 bills turned out to be the only tangible evidence ever recovered from the 1971 hijacking and ransoming of a Northwest Orient Airlines 727 by an unidentified man who came to be known as D.B. Cooper. With $200,000 in $20s, Cooper had parachuted out of the back of the plane at night over heavily wooded country somewhere in southwestern Washington and was never seen again.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Coopsnoop on February 24, 2014, 11:01:08 PM
There was a pretty good episode #2 on the Travel Channel earlier in the month.  I think it was called America Declassified.  A follow-up to the first episode.  It discussed some scientific studies offered up by Galen Cook and his team of scientists about how the money ended up at Tina's bar and why it was in the condition that it was found.  Very interesting.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on February 25, 2014, 12:07:48 AM
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There was a pretty good episode #2 on the Travel Channel earlier in the month.  I think it was called America Declassified.  A follow-up to the first episode.  It discussed some scientific studies offered up by Galen Cook and his team of scientists about how the money ended up at Tina's bar and why it was in the condition that it was found.  Very interesting.


sadly I missed it. perhaps it can be found online? I'll look around and see if I can find it and post the link.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: smokin99 on February 25, 2014, 10:26:44 PM
Good article about the show in December Parachutist. I posted a link in a Flight Path category post.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Parrotheadvol on February 26, 2014, 09:44:26 PM
Shutter, I watched it online last night through my Comcast account. Don't know who your provider is, but if its Comcast you should be good to go. 

It's interesting, but I don't buy the plant theory.

In the show they revealed money that they had buried at Tena Bar several months earlier. When recovered, it wasn't in nearly as bad of shape as the Cooper money was. It was actually in good shape. The suggestion was made that Cooper trimmed the money with scissors and buried it.

The problem is, they buried good money. The Cooper money, by the time it arrived at Tena Bar, was probably in very poor condition. I just was not real impressed with that experiment.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on February 26, 2014, 09:50:06 PM
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Shutter, I watched it online last night through my Comcast account. Don't know who your provider is, but if its Comcast you should be good to go. 

It's interesting, but I don't buy the plant theory.

In the show they revealed money that they had buried at Tena Bar several months earlier. When recovered, it wasn't in nearly as bad of shape as the Cooper money was. It was actually in good shape. The suggestion was made that Cooper trimmed the money with scissors and buried it.

The problem is, they buried good money. The Cooper money, by the time it arrived at Tena Bar, was probably in very poor condition. I just was not real impressed with that experiment.

Personally, I believe the money could have been in the bag for an extended amount of time prior to being found on the beach.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on February 27, 2014, 03:11:19 PM
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Shutter, I watched it online last night through my Comcast account. Don't know who your provider is, but if its Comcast you should be good to go. 

It's interesting, but I don't buy the plant theory.

In the show they revealed money that they had buried at Tena Bar several months earlier. When recovered, it wasn't in nearly as bad of shape as the Cooper money was. It was actually in good shape. The suggestion was made that Cooper trimmed the money with scissors and buried it.

The problem is, they buried good money. The Cooper money, by the time it arrived at Tena Bar, was probably in very poor condition. I just was not real impressed with that experiment.

Personally, I believe the money could have been in the bag for an extended amount of time prior to being found on the beach.

I tend to agree - something protected the found bundles in another location, prior to the bundles being found at Tina Bar. The Ingram bundles did not just sit on the surface at T-Bar between 11-24-71 and Feb of 1980. They were protected by some circumstance and are probably a surviving remnant.

The full facts of the excavation and the life of the money are not available (to us). I guess we just wait for Tom Kaye or Geoffrey Gray or somebody in an official position, to tell us. Maybe the price of knowing will be $49.99 (on sale) ?   8)
   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Coopsnoop on March 01, 2014, 05:09:34 PM
The papaer bag?   Maybe the some packets were put in the paper bag.  A regular paper bag would have completely disintegrated in the sandbar.  But how about Dr. Palmer's assessment?
He says the money was not at "that" location for very long.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 03, 2014, 02:55:45 AM
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The papaer bag?   Maybe the some packets were put in the paper bag.  A regular paper bag would have completely disintegrated in the sandbar.  But how about Dr. Palmer's assessment?
He says the money was not at "that" location for very long.

I read it as Palmer fudging. At first he says 9 months, then backs up to 'no more than two years'.
The Ingram money apparently found no more than 1-4" below the top sand. Then Himmelsbach comes along and writes in his book: "fragments at four feet'! I think Palmer sensed there were going to be questions right from the start. He basically justifies his reading of the Tina Bar strata by saying (paraphrased): 'Ive been doing these kinds of studies for years, and reading shoreline
strata for years ... so ... who are you to question me!' It's not exactly reassuring and no lab work was done or presented to back anything up. But, in the end maybe Palmer was right.

Attached is my graphic of Palmer's strata classification at Tina Bar.

Tom Kaye believes that Palmer got the strata wrong. Tom, if I understand him, thinks that
Palmer's "clay lump dredge layer" was in fact part of the channel bottom clay layer curving up and
underlying the whole shoreline - a lower part of the 'old' river channel. Palmer's cross bedded
reworked coarse & medium sand
, Tom would assign as a remaining remnant of the dredging
spoils deposited on Tina Bar in 1974, with Palmer's [/i]"upper active reworked sand"[/i] on top
of that.

Tom believes that erosion had wasted the whole upper layers of Tina Bar away by 1980 including
a good share of the dredging spoils deposited in 1974. For all practical purposes therefore, if I
understand Tom correctly, Tom believes that the Ingram money was found on the boundary
between the original 1971 shoreline, covered over by a mix of remaining dredge sediment and
newer sand Palmer's calls "the upper active reworked sand - light color.

Core samples and lab tests would have settled this issue in 1980.

Very likely the last chapter on this issue has not been written.


 


     
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Coopsnoop on March 04, 2014, 06:00:50 PM
Georger, go take a look at the photos of the Tina Bar twenties pictured in Richard Tosaw's 84 book.  There is something very peculiar about their shape.  When you're not in a pissed-off mood, e-mail me and I'll tell you about them.
snoop.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 05, 2014, 12:08:03 AM
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Georger, go take a look at the photos of the Tina Bar twenties pictured in Richard Tosaw's 84 book.  There is something very peculiar about their shape.  When you're not in a pissed-off mood, e-mail me and I'll tell you about them.
snoop.

Post a few pics - or just tell us about them?   8)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on March 05, 2014, 08:21:31 AM
Shutter, can you put some background info on the money find in the opening post?  Who, when, where (maybe a link to a map) money was found.  I know all of you all know this.... but I'm thinking it would be good if any people new to the case wander onto the board.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2014, 10:42:37 PM
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Shutter, can you put some background info on the money find in the opening post?  Who, when, where (maybe a link to a map) money was found.  I know all of you all know this.... but I'm thinking it would be good if any people new to the case wander onto the board.  Thanks.


Sure, I was also thinking about having a section with just photo's. something to retrieve when needed? I'll post something soon.

Thanks


Look at the top of the posts now Buckwheat. that should be a good start. Georger also provided some info.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 06, 2014, 01:45:46 PM
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Shutter, can you put some background info on the money find in the opening post?  Who, when, where (maybe a link to a map) money was found.  I know all of you all know this.... but I'm thinking it would be good if any people new to the case wander onto the board.  Thanks.

You can go over to Tom Kaye's sleuth site and find a pretty good summary under Money Find.
http://www.citizensleuths.com/team.html
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 06, 2014, 05:09:28 PM
Thanks G, has anyone alerted Tom of this site?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on March 06, 2014, 08:59:59 PM
Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 06, 2014, 11:34:40 PM
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Thanks G, has anyone alerted Tom of this site?

I will shoot him an email but I have to assume others have already alerted him ...
Thanks...

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Tom Kaye on March 07, 2014, 02:46:26 AM

Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 07, 2014, 03:53:02 AM
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Shutter, can you put some background info on the money find in the opening post?  Who, when, where (maybe a link to a map) money was found.  I know all of you all know this.... but I'm thinking it would be good if any people new to the case wander onto the board.  Thanks.

Here's what I know about the money find, Buck.  It's a chapter in my book:

Chapter 9
The Money Find


The only definitive physical piece of evidence discovered in the DB Cooper case has been a three-bundle stack of twenty-dollar bills found in 1980 and totaling $5,800. They were discovered on a Columbia River beach by an eight-year old boy named Brian Ingram while he scraped a flat spot in the sand for a fire to roast hot dogs during a family picnic.

Brian discussed his money find with me at the 2011 DB Cooper Symposium in Portland.

He said that the money was divvied into three bundles, with each one placed slightly askew on top of the other. Each bundle was also wrapped with a rubber band, which were intact when he found them.

The bills were worn around the edges and looked weathered, as if they had been buried in the sand for awhile.

After discovering the bills, Brian said that he and his family: his parents Dwayne and Patricia, and his five-year old cousin Denise, scoured the rest of the beach looking for more bills.

“Of course we went looking,” he told me. “We wanted to find more money!”

But, Brian told me that they found nothing else.

“Georger” of the Citizen Sleuths told me the next phase of the story. Georger has talked at length with Brian Ingram and says that the Ingrams brought the money back to their apartment and attempted to separate the stuck layers of bills.

In fact, they seemed to be compressed together, and when any attempt was made to pull them apart the bills broke into chunks.

Brian’s mother tried soaking the money in the kitchen sink but they wouldn’t separate. She added dish soap and even Clorox in her attempt, as her family hoped to take the money to a bank and redeem it.

Discussing their remarkable find at work the next day, one of Dwayne’s fellow employees mentioned the DB Cooper hijacking and suggested to Dwayne, who was from Oklahoma and unaware of DB Cooper, that he contact law enforcement.

Dwayne called the Sheriff’s office and they put him in touch with the FBI in Portland, who checked some of the serial numbers Ingram provided and discovered a match. An appointment was arranged with Himmelsbach for the following morning at the Portland FBI office.

After meeting with the family, Himmelsbach assembled a retrieval team and headed out to the beach, known as Tina Bar, as in sand bar. By late Tuesday, February 14, 1980, dozens of FBI agents, newspaper reporters and camera crews had descended upon Tina Bar.

The beach is owned by the Fazio family and is part of a large and varied ranch operation that includes a cattle business and a sand and gravel outfit. In 1980, the Fazios let people use the beach at Tina Bar, and a jar was placed at the beach gate for 25 cent donations. The beach was popular with fisherman and renowned for steelhead. It is about one mile downstream from the popular Clark County Park called “Frenchman’s Bar.”

Al Fazio told me he was not at home when the FBI arrived. In fact, he first encountered the feds as he was returning from a cattle auction and was stopped by agents on Lower River Road, about five miles west of Vancouver, WA. He was not allowed to proceed onto his property even though he was pulling a cattle trailer and showed proper identification. Eventually, however, he was allowed access.

Once on the property he headed to the beach and joined his brother, Richard Fazio. Al says that they were soon hired by the FBI to bring their back-hoes onto the strand and participate in the excavation.

In 1980 Tina Bar looked much differently than it does today. Then, the beach was gently tapered from the edge of the pasture lands down to the water’s edge. Nowadays, the beach slope is much steeper as the dredged channel muck is deposited inland for environmental considerations rather than thrown back on the beach. Currently, the slope at Tina Bar has a 2-3 foot cliff at the upper edge of the riverbank and then drops sharply to the water’s edge.

At present, the Fazio’s lands possess one of the dredge spoil deposition sites and it is huge. The inland piling of sandy gravel is a hundred feet high and at least a few hundred feet in diameter.
This channel maintenance program changed in 1974, and FBI records reveal that the Portland State University hydrologist who inspected Tina Bar, Leonard Palmer, declared the money came from soil layers above the last on-shore depositions in 1974, proving that the money arrived at Tina Bar after that date. Because of that analysis, it would appear that the money was never deposited at Tina Bar by any dredging operation.

Conversely, since the bills were compressed together and  did not separate easily, it is possible they had been buried in the sand for a lengthy period of time, perhaps at a great depth, and only discovered once the shoreline eroded enough to reveal the money.

There is other evidence that challenges a long-term burial at Tina Bar. Brian claims that the rubber bands that enclosed each of the three bundles were intact when he found the money, and Tom Kaye of the Citizen Sleuths has declared that the manufacturer of the rubber bands has said that they would only stay pliable for a few months in the wild. However, they could last longer if they were buried in wet sand. Did that happen? At this point long-term placement at Tina Bar seems to be speculative.

Nevertheless, Galen Cook has employed a team of local soil and hydrology scientists to evaluate the Tina Bar environment and review all of Dr. Palmer’s findings. Galen says that Palmer had indicated that the money probably arrived at Tina Bar only 9-12 months before discovery, which would be about mid-1979. This time frame corresponds to a period of flooding following the severe drought of 1978 when water levels on the Columbia were at their fourth-lowest level ever recorded.

In addition, Galen says one of the bundles did not have a rubber band around it and was missing several bills. Galen feels that this bundle may have been the source of the money shards reportedly found strewn about the beach and sighted by many others, including the FBI and the Fazios.

But like most things in the DB Cooper case, there is plenty of controversy about virtually all aspects of the money find.

Even though Brian says that he found nothing else on the beach, Himmelsbach writes in his book that he and his team found fragments of bills on the beach and buried in the sand as deep as three-feet in some instances.

Similarly, Himmelsbach’s PIO, Dorwin Schreuder, told me in 2010 that they had found “thousands of shards” throughout the sand column and that they placed them in plastic baggies. Specifically, Dorwin says they found the shards “evenly placed throughout the top 3-4 feet of sand for a radius of 20 yards” from the spot where Brian had found the three bundles, and that they found them through lots of shovel work before Al Fazio and his brother arrived with their back-hoes. In particular, Dorwin said that they dug at least four holes to that depth and found shards each time.

“No matter how deep we dug we found money – homogeneously mixed to a great depth,” he told me.

Dorwin told me that some of the bill fragments were sizeable, “about two or three inches across,” and had enough of a serial number on them to confirm that they were part of Cooper’s ransom. However, most were small, about the size of a coin from a penny to a quarter.

He also said they worked diligently and methodically. Pictures in newspapers confirm that the beach was sectioned into six grid zones and dozens of FBI agents and volunteers dug at the surface with shovels. They even established a screening pit and passed volumes of sand through a mesh grate.

“We went at it like archeologists,” Schreuder said.

The FBI reportedly continued recovery efforts at Tina Bar for several days, concluding on Saturday.
Dorwin said that once they went past the 20-yard radius the money field diminished, and that was when they brought in the back-hoes.

Later, Schreuder went on to become the DB Cooper case agent in Portland when Ralph Himmelsbach left the FBI seventeen days after the money find due to the Bureau’s mandatory retirement requirements.

Supporting the FBI’s claims, Special Agent Mike McPheter told me that he was on “shovel detail” and was digging with other agents on the tide line, where he found money fragments. McPheter told me that he retrieved about a dozen pieces, either on the surface or buried about a foot or two down into the sand.

“About a shovel blade’s length,” he told me.

Yet, no shards or baggies are in the evidence collection in Seattle, according to the Citizen Sleuths. In addition, there is no documentation in Seattle pertaining to how and where the shards were found. In short, Seattle has no record of what was found by the Portland agents at Tina Bar.
I have asked Ralph Himmelsbach repeatedly to clarify this issue – sending him letters and emailing his trusted associate, Jerry Thomas. As of this writing, I haven’t heard anything definitive other than Jerry’s comment, “Ralph told me that everything was spent up to Seattle.”

If so, where is it?

Worse, I haven’t received any information on this subject from former Cooper case agent Ron Nichols, either. Nichols was the Norjak boss in Seattle at the time of the money find, and if he made any attempt to monitor the money find operation he’s not talking.

Worst, though, are the rumors that Himmelsbach retained the shards and kept Nichols in the dark, forcing the Seattle FO to learn of the money find by reading the Seattle newspapers.

Complicating the matter, Schreuder also told me that they found more than just money.
“We found about a half to a third of Cooper’s briefcase,” Schreuder said.

However, he also claimed that the money and briefcase came on shore as part of the channel dredging – that everything got scooped off the bottom of the Colombia and thrown on the rive bank. Dorwin admits that his memory may be faulty as he says he recalls the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE) had their dredge, the “Bedell,” at Tina Bar during their recovery operations, but ACE records show the Bedell was long gone and in California when Dorwin says it was on the Columbia.

Compounding the confusion is Al Fazio, who adamantly claims that the feds didn’t find a single shard anywhere buried in the sand. In addition, the Fazios claim they had never seen any money on their beach before the Ingram find.

“They didn’t find anything buried – that’s just a lot of government crap,” Al told me in 2009. “I should know, I was there, right on top of a back-hoe, doing the digging.”

However, Al and Richard say that they saw money shards along the tide line, and Al is convinced the money washed in via the current and tides. He states that the bundles were covered with only a bit of sand, and he posits that it was all done by natural wave action.

Continuing, he says many of the shards he saw were discolored or black, which confounds the claims of the Citizens Sleuths who say the blackening occurred after the FBI applied a silver nitrate compound to test for fingerprints.

Nevertheless, Al is convinced the shards were actually part of the top bundle of Brian’s three, and says the actions of the tides and floating driftwood tore up a few of the surface bills and deposited them along the tide-line.

Simply, Al Fazio refutes Himmelsbach’s and his agents claims that they found money pieces buried in the sand.

Further, Galen Cook contributes recent findings that add more uncertainty.

Galen says he has spoken to many fishermen along the Columbia, and in 2012 he met two men who claimed to have seen money shards at Tina Bar just prior to Brian’s discovery in February 1980. They said they were teenagers, aged 12 and 14, fishing for steelhead in January 1980, and they found a dozen pieces of twenties buried in a hole in the sand a few feet away from the spot where Brain found the three bundles. Intriguingly, the fishermen said the pieces were the corners of torn-off twenties, with the numeral “20” clearly showing as if someone had deliberately cut them off the bills.

In addition, the fishermen told Galen that a week later they found a few more shards about 100 yards downstream.

They said that they didn’t attach any significance to their find so they didn’t tell anyone.
But it does raise the question of what the FBI did in the days and weeks after the money find in 1980. Did they talk to fishermen along the shoreline? Did they explore other sections of the river front? If not, why not? If they did, what are their findings?

The fishermen’s claim ties into another discovery near Tina Bar. When Galen released the news about the teenagers finding fragments, he was reminded of the 1988 discovery by Richard Tosaw of a “pilot chute” snagged on a wooden river groin in twenty-feet of water, about a mile upstream from Tina Bar.

A pilot chute is a small rectangular parachute about 2-3 feet across and designed to help pull the main canopy from a parachute bag, such as a pilot chute pulling a Steinthal canopy from a Pioneer container.

Combined with the fiery object and the teenaged-fishermen’s testimony, Galen now wonders if DB Cooper concealed a pilot chute in his briefcase and waited until the Columbia River to ditch his bundle of gear. As he passed over the water he ignited the bundle with the sticks of dynamite, which were actually road flares, and attached the pilot chute so that the bundle would slowly float down to the surface and take a long time to burn and possibly give him a long look at his landing zone.

As a result, Galen now wonders if Cooper landed on the southern shore of the Columbia River in Oregon.

“This is why the case is unsolved after 42 years,” he wrote me in 2012. “Everything is out of whack and ripe for a really good conspiracy storyline.”

Supporting this notion are numerous reports that Larry Carr told many sleuths shortly before his left the case that he was convinced Cooper jumped south of the FBI’s original LZ at Ariel. Galen said to me that Carr had told him that Cooper jumped at Battleground, Washington, and others say they’ve heard Larry tout Orchard, Washington. However, I have not found any definitive statements from Larry that move the LZ south of Ariel.

The money find and its associated investigations have one additional twist – the role that Richard Tosaw played in the lives of many of those connected with the case:

To re-cap the basics: after the FBI confiscated the money from the Ingrams in 1980 - claiming they needed it for evidence - the Ingram’s hired Tosaw, who had established himself as legal expert in inheritance recovery cases.

Tosaw needed years to convince a court to grant the Ingram some of the money, and eventually they received about half of the bills in June 1986. The NWO’s insurance company, Global Indemnity, got a similar share, and the FBI was awarded fourteen bills for evidence.

But in the course of helping the Ingrams, Tosaw became immersed in the Cooper saga, writing the first major book on DB Cooper and being the last journalist to interview Tina Mucklow. Further, Tosaw became fixated on the notion that Cooper crash-landed in the Columbia River near Tina Bar, and perished. But he couldn’t prove it conclusively.

As a result, he spent his summers camped out on the shore of the Columbia looking for Cooper, and he hired many locals to help him. At one point he even rented a spot on the Fazio’s property.
Eventually Galen joined him, and in the summers of 2005 and 2008 they spent a considerable time together. Their association continued in a robust fashion until the venerable investigator died of cancer in 2009.

There is one more quirky money mystery:

The ranch lands that contain Tina Bar have been in the Fazio family for generations, and as mentioned before the Fazios graze cattle on their many acres of pasture.

In 1991, more than ten years after the Cooper money find, Al and Richard experienced another extraordinary event: five of their cattle were killed in a bizarre fashion consistent with a national scourge called the “Cattle Mutilation Phenomenon.”

One night in late winter, the cattle were killed in three separate locations with no obvious signs of a struggle. Further, there were no sign of a bullet wound in any of the animals.

“The cattle were just lying on their side,” Al told me.

Tellingly, Al sweated profusely when he told me this story, mopping his brow constantly with a paper towel. He only relaxed when his brother Richard entered the room and joined the conversation.

The brothers told me that each carcass had several parts of their body removed, such as an eye, genitals, or a section of jaw.

Al said that a necropsy was performed by vets at the Oregon State University, and they found the incisions around the excised parts had been performed by a high-temperature electrical instrument. As a result, the remaining tissue at the edge of the wound was cauterized and clean, and did not contain any pooled blood, bodily fluids, or shredded tissue. Many of the incisions were “cookie-cutter” shaped or zippered-looking, with the angles of cutting very precise.
The local Clark County Sheriff’s Department also conducted an investigation but was unable to come to any substantive conclusion. However, some investigators reported that neighbors on Lower River Road said they had heard unusual noises on the night in question, as if they were listening to strange farm machinery operating.

Cattle mutilation stories are widely reported in the paranormal world, such as Coast to Coast radio, and are also investigated by serious journalists, such as the award-winning NBC-TV reporter Linda Moulton Howe.

Howe endeavored to inspect the Fazio incident, but the brothers declined, citing that they had enough of media attention with the Cooper case.

However, my associates at the DZ have discovered that several other mutilation episodes occurred in Oregon prior to the Fazio incident. They report that cattle mutilations occurred near Bend, La Pine and Fort Rock, Oregon in the spring and summer of 1989, and resulted in 35 carcasses.

To this day it is unknown whether there is any connection between the money find at Tina Bar and the deaths of the Fazios’ cattle.

The last investigatory oddity is the fact that the FBI, their hydrologist Leonard Palmer, and many others including members of the DZ, call Tina Bar, “Tena Bar.” Why is unknown, as the signage at the beach clearly states “TINA BAR,” but suspicions run deep that the FBI is trying to obfuscate the association between the location of the money find and Norjak’s primary witness, Tina Mucklow, who lived only a few miles away in Gresham, Oregon when the money was found in 1980.

As for those outside of the FBI who cling to the nomenclature of Tena Bar, one can only wonder how deeply they need to believe in the Federal Bureau of Investigation and its narratives.















Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 07, 2014, 06:11:49 AM
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Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK


Hi Tom, and welcome to the forum. I can assure you that I will make this a civil place to discuss the Cooper case. several key elements have been removed from the equation that was causing major disruption. it's up to us as a group to continue making the forum succeed.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 07, 2014, 03:55:53 PM
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Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK

Hey Tom, and thanks for coming. I know we can go to your website and read what you've written there, but can you give the central reasons/facts why you conclude 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' cannot account for the money being at Tina Bar ?

Maybe we need to define what 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' is?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 07, 2014, 04:46:22 PM
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Shutter, can you put some background info on the money find in the opening post?  Who, when, where (maybe a link to a map) money was found.  I know all of you all know this.... but I'm thinking it would be good if any people new to the case wander onto the board.  Thanks.

Here's what I know about the money find, Buck.  It's a chapter in my book:

Chapter 9
The Money Find


The only definitive physical piece of evidence discovered in the DB Cooper case has been a three-bundle stack of twenty-dollar bills found in 1980 and totaling $5,800. They were discovered on a Columbia River beach by an eight-year old boy named Brian Ingram while he scraped a flat spot in the sand for a fire to roast hot dogs during a family picnic.

Brian discussed his money find with me at the 2011 DB Cooper Symposium in Portland.

<text trimmed for brevity>

As for those outside of the FBI who cling to the nomenclature of Tena Bar, one can only wonder how deeply they need to believe in the Federal Bureau of Investigation and its narratives.

Nice summary Bruce except for the Kattlemutiliation gestalt!  :)

There are specific points I want to address tonight, but generally I like your presentation, except for Rinder Verstümmelung  :)  Your 'rendering' of Schroeder's story is spot on with what he told me. Bands intact on the bundles as per Brian, I need to check, before saying anything. That is important.

Hopfully Tom will reply because Tom has also spoken to these people... maybe we can develop a consensus which would be helpful.. and new.

Your article covers central critical issues - congrats.
 

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 08, 2014, 12:10:00 AM
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Shutter, can you put some background info on the money find in the opening post?  Who, when, where (maybe a link to a map) money was found.  I know all of you all know this.... but I'm thinking it would be good if any people new to the case wander onto the board.  Thanks.

Here's what I know about the money find, Buck.  It's a chapter in my book:

Chapter 9
The Money Find


The only definitive physical piece of evidence discovered in the DB Cooper case has been a three-bundle stack of twenty-dollar bills found in 1980 and totaling $5,800. They were discovered on a Columbia River beach by an eight-year old boy named Brian Ingram while he scraped a flat spot in the sand for a fire to roast hot dogs during a family picnic.

Brian discussed his money find with me at the 2011 DB Cooper Symposium in Portland.

<text trimmed for brevity>

As for those outside of the FBI who cling to the nomenclature of Tena Bar, one can only wonder how deeply they need to believe in the Federal Bureau of Investigation and its narratives.

Nice summary Bruce except for the Kattlemutiliation gestalt!  :)

Your 'rendering' of Schroeder's story is spot on with what he told me.

Hopfully Tom will reply because Tom has also spoken to these people...

Bruce let me now address specific points:

Fragments:  Yours is the same account I got from Schreuder. The Fazio statements are
contradictory. They claim they saw no fragments, there were no fragments, they were right there
at all times as eye witnesses, its government 'crap', and ... " Al and Richard say that they saw
money shards along the tide line" ! (They told JT the same thing, almost verbatim)

I think the Fazio were potentially in a bad position when Cooper money was found on their property. By all accounts there was no connection to the Fazios but it wouldn't surprise me if they still felt a need to dis-associate themselves from any knowledge concerning the money, while at the same time trying to portray themselves as being helpful. This alone could account for them denying any knowledge of fragments and the like, while then turning around and saying: "frags along the tide line!". It's a clear contradiction perhaps born of angst?   ;)

Pilot chute:   I am the one who reminded Galen of the pilot-chute (or flare-chute) find, in as much as neither the attached article (or Curtis Rainey notes) were in the Tosaw papers delivered to Galen from Tosaw's estate. The article speaks for itself. The chute was given to the FBI.

Is the chute related to the Janet and/or Eugene Incident stories?  Who knows...

Bands on found Ingram bundles were intact when he found them:  There simply were no intact rubber bands when Brian found the money, holding anything together. Consider the following intake statement, paraphrased:

''' The money ... had once been held together with rubber bands which were so old and decomposed that they crumbled away immediately upon handling.... We took the money home where we showed it to _______________, who took some of the brittle bands pieces off, where they didn’t just crumble off and we was going to dry out the money and try to take it to a bank.” ... they processed the money further trying to wash it in the kitchen sink, pull pieces apart to separate and reclaim bills they could turn into a bank ... a few band pieces they say stuck to paper in places and pulled paper lose sometimes when the pieces were picked or brushed off . . '''

   
 


   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Tom Kaye on March 08, 2014, 03:23:42 AM

Georger requested clarification on why we discount "natural means"

First off if you take as fact that Cooper jumped around Ariel then the money had to move 20 miles or so to get to TB.  Water is the only natural means to move the money that far.  We traced the tributaries to the Washougal and none of them made it up to the area around Ariel. The Lewis river route requires a move upstream to get to TB which would be unnatural. So unless a bird flew it there I can't personally think of any other way to move the bundles. 

Now if you want to argue that the jump was off or the flight path was different that's fine but we found no evidence that supported a different jump zone or flight path from what was presented in the archives.

PS there WERE money fragments in the FBI archive. Only a few crumbs in a match box size container.

Tom
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 08, 2014, 05:11:19 AM
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Georger requested clarification on why we discount "natural means"

First off if you take as fact that Cooper jumped around Ariel then the money had to move 20 miles or so to get to TB.  Water is the only natural means to move the money that far.  We traced the tributaries to the Washougal and none of them made it up to the area around Ariel. The Lewis river route requires a move upstream to get to TB which would be unnatural. So unless a bird flew it there I can't personally think of any other way to move the bundles. 

Now if you want to argue that the jump was off or the flight path was different that's fine but we found no evidence that supported a different jump zone or flight path from what was presented in the archives.

PS there WERE money fragments in the FBI archive. Only a few crumbs in a match box size container.

Tom

Yes, I see the humor, fragments: a few crumbs in a match box. You see the conflict between
that and other reports. That is what drives the controversy. Did you ever speak with Schreuder or
anyone else regarding the allegation of fragments, with a definitive statement that satisfied you?

No one would reasonably suggest the money 'flowed' from Ariel to Tina Bar, so yes, a strict
interpretation requires 'non natural means'. I would only make two points: (a) there is no proof the Ariel landing is true, outside of a map and the word of a few people, and (b) non-natural means does not guarantee or even imply "plant".

In addition, is there anything in the money analysis you did or anything in what is known about
the money itself, which point to Ariel as its origin independent of all flight path issues? If you
had all of the money to test, and soil samples, any samples related to money and environment
you can imagine, any tests you could run out of the total inventory of forensic tests humans know to conduct ... would any results point to Ariel and what would such indicators be if they exist?

I know, it's a broad question. Perhaps impossible to answer because of the variables involved. And it's not meant as a trick question. Could the money tell us about its origin(s) independent of
the flight path, and how? The question is meant for anyone who thinks they have a solution to this dilemma.

Thanks.

   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: smokin99 on March 08, 2014, 09:46:37 AM
Here's where it gets oh so confusing.......

Kaye said that rubber bands of that type will last less than three months in the water but that they could have been preserved if they were buried in sand. From that, he postulates that the cash reached Tena Bar much sooner than thought.

"The story that the money spent many, many years somewhere else and ended up on Tena Bar is probably wrong," Kaye said. "It ended up on Tena Bar much sooner, probably shortly after he jumped."

He does not rule out the possibility that the hijacker and parachutes fell directly into the Columbia and were soon swept into the Pacific Ocean.

"It tells you (the money) likely didn't come down 20 miles of the Washougal River," Kaye said. "Then it brings up the question of where did Cooper really jump. We have reason to believe the jump zone was farther south. If the money landed in the Columbia, that would be the easiest explanation for how it got to Tena Bar."


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html)

With all due respect to Tom Kaye and company because I greatly appreciate the time and work they put in - even if I don't necessarily agree with all of the conclusions - opinions in Cooper country can and do change like stories of the northwest weather on November 24, 1971.  :)

So my question to Tom is - Did you see a different or "non-redacted" version of the transcript - or the radar documents  -or other flight path/landing zone explanation that now convinces you that the publicized path/landing zone is correct? In other words, why did your belief change from what was quoted in this article? Was it closer examination of the documents that the public has been privy to or did you see additional documentation?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find vs Flight Path: Reductio Absurdum
Post by: georger on March 08, 2014, 04:33:42 PM
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Here's where it gets oh so confusing.......

Kaye said that rubber bands of that type will last less than three months in the water but that they could have been preserved if they were buried in sand. From that, he postulates that the cash reached Tena Bar much sooner than thought.

"The story that the money spent many, many years somewhere else and ended up on Tena Bar is probably wrong," Kaye said. "It ended up on Tena Bar much sooner, probably shortly after he jumped."

He does not rule out the possibility that the hijacker and parachutes fell directly into the Columbia and were soon swept into the Pacific Ocean.

"It tells you (the money) likely didn't come down 20 miles of the Washougal River," Kaye said. "Then it brings up the question of where did Cooper really jump. We have reason to believe the jump zone was farther south. If the money landed in the Columbia, that would be the easiest explanation for how it got to Tena Bar."


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html)

With all due respect to Tom Kaye and company because I greatly appreciate the time and work they put in - even if I don't necessarily agree with all of the conclusions - opinions in Cooper country can and do change like stories of the northwest weather on November 24, 1971.  :)

So my question to Tom is - Did you see a different or "non-redacted" version of the transcript - or the radar documents  -or other flight path/landing zone explanation that now convinces you that the publicized path/landing zone is correct? In other words, why did your belief change from what was quoted in this article? Was it closer examination of the documents that the public has been privy to or did you see additional documentation?

Very briefly, the 'non-natural means argument' being applied is in fact, a form of reductio ad absurdum.  example: Rocks have weight, otherwise we would see them floating in the air.

Lack of a facts explaining something, is not an excuse to start forming absurd conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

The Cooper sleuthing community is rife with this kind of thing. That is why I asked the question:
can we track the history of the money, without resorting to knowledge about the flight path?
At some point the two should merge. That is the enterprise of science.

I mean, if the only option is "unnatural means" then what traits or lack of traits in the money suggest or prove that?  Or does this require we now reference the paper bag or cow mutilations?

 

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Tom Kaye on March 09, 2014, 01:22:47 AM

I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 09, 2014, 11:45:17 AM
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK


Hi Tom, how much of the evidence on the bills could have been erased due to time spent on the beach, or being separated and handled by many over the years prior to your getting a hold of the bills? was valuable evidence lost? would there be different conclusions if you received the bills days after the find?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 09, 2014, 04:37:35 PM
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK


Hi Tom, how much of the evidence on the bills could have been erased due to time spent on the beach, or being separated and handled by many over the years prior to your getting a hold of the bills? was valuable evidence lost? would there be different conclusions if you received the bills days after the find?

very good question - and, prior to contamination by silver nitrate finger printing.

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 09, 2014, 04:49:55 PM
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK

Diatoms require oxygen. The lack of diatoms could be confirming your theory that the money spent the bulk of its lifetime in a deeper oxygen-free strata than Palmer realised.

Diatoms are also seasonal. The money was discovered in February. Cook's fishermen  claim a
January sighting. The same fishermen claim no sighting prior to January 1980. The record drought
of  '79 ended with flooding which probably caused erosion plus a new top layer of sands in late
79? The money may have just emerged from a lower strata and was discovered before the 1980
seasonal crop of diatoms could affect it.

The lack of diatoms could be a confirmation of your theory that the money was buried in a deeper
strata (perhaps going back to 1971-74) prior to its discovery.

I wonder how Palmer would have explained the lack of diatoms?

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on March 09, 2014, 05:15:14 PM
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK

Diatoms require oxygen. The lack of diatoms could be confirming your theory that the money spent the bulk of its lifetime in a deeper oxygen-free strata than Palmer realised.

Diatoms are also seasonal. The money was discovered in February. Cook's fishermen  claim a
January sighting. The same fishermen claim no sighting prior to January 1980. The record drought
of  '79 ended with flooding which probably caused erosion plus a new top layer of sands in late
79? The money may have just emerged from a lower strata and was discovered before the 1980
seasonal crop of diatoms could affect it.

The lack of diatoms could be a confirmation of your theory that the money was buried in a deeper
strata (perhaps going back to 1971-74) prior to its discovery.

I wonder how Palmer would have explained the lack of diatoms?

Are diatoms contained in mud, such as the mud flats that used to exist in the small channel between Caterpillar Island and the Columbia River shore?  There is a marina located in that channel now which means that it was apparently dredged at some point.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 09, 2014, 06:09:43 PM
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK

Diatoms require oxygen. The lack of diatoms could be confirming your theory that the money spent the bulk of its lifetime in a deeper oxygen-free strata than Palmer realised.

Diatoms are also seasonal. The money was discovered in February. Cook's fishermen  claim a
January sighting. The same fishermen claim no sighting prior to January 1980. The record drought
of  '79 ended with flooding which probably caused erosion plus a new top layer of sands in late
79? The money may have just emerged from a lower strata and was discovered before the 1980
seasonal crop of diatoms could affect it.

The lack of diatoms could be a confirmation of your theory that the money was buried in a deeper
strata (perhaps going back to 1971-74) prior to its discovery.

I wonder how Palmer would have explained the lack of diatoms?

Are diatoms contained in mud, such as the mud flats that used to exist in the small channel between Caterpillar Island and the Columbia River shore?  There is a marina located in that channel now which means that it was apparently dredged at some point.

Sure, if there is any standing water. Different species populate different areas but according to
experts at UW (who know the NW biota well) major populations of closely related species
dominate large regions along the Columbia and inland. You have to consult these experts to know
what populations dominate certain areas ... its a fascinating subject. But, all diatoms require
oxygen and proliferate seasonally... and the genetics of these buggers is a whole encyclopedia to
itself. Diatoms, as I understand them, are generally a surface feature but can define a water column. It's a very interesting subject for its forensic value.

The astounding thing to me about Tom's discovery (lack of diatoms in the money) is it is virtually impossible to avoid diatoms from surface water exposure, especially in back areas, along the
Columbia and elsewhere. There are people *very curious about why the Cooper bills showed no
evidence of diatoms. Tom may have made a major discovery with this ... lets just say it requires
explanation. There were people willing and ready to devote lab and staff time to this - but alas
the specimens promised never came through ... maybe it can still happen. I hope so.   

The next generation of Columbia Cooper searcher divers is being trained as I write ...  enjoy!:)

 

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: MeyerLouie on March 09, 2014, 07:32:41 PM
Not finding diatoms does not rule out the Columbia River.  As Georger said, diatoms need oxygen, and if the bills were deprived of oxygen for a required length of time, as in being buried under sand for several years, then the diatoms wouldn't show up.  The bills showed up on the shore of the Columbia River, tattered and torn -- if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.  It seems probable the money and the Columbia River are connected. 

I've never named a suspect or committed to any theory thus far these past 4 years -- but the one thing that seems to be coming up time and again is the FBI -- their incompetence, secrecy, inconsistencies, and possible cover-up.  Where are the money shards the FBI agents, and others, say were found at Tina Bar?  (Read Bruce's chapter below, he explains it all).  Nowhere to be found.  Where are the cigarette butts?  Nowhere to be found.  It seems anything and everything that could shed light on the case, or be evidence, seems to mysteriously disappear.  The FBI usually claims ignorance or has no comment.  My conclusion: they got duped and outsmarted by a guy who was just one of us, and they're too arrogant -- and ashamed -- to embrace their shortcomings.  The best investigative group in the world got outsmarted by one guy.  I'll tell you who my guy is in this case -- it's DB Cooper himself.  Almost 43 years now and no one has ever found him or conclusively identified him.  He pulled off the great caper, he's the smart one here, he's made the great FBI look like a bunch of bumbling idiots. I have finally named my suspect, it's DB Cooper himself.  He got by with a little help from his friends and he got lucky too, no doubt, but he still pulled it off, and we're all still here scratching our heads -- 43 years later.  He's my guy.... MeyerLouie


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Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK

Hey Tom, and thanks for coming. I know we can go to your website and read what you've written there, but can you give the central reasons/facts why you conclude 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' cannot account for the money being at Tina Bar ?

Maybe we need to define what 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' is?

Thanks.
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 09, 2014, 11:41:33 PM
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Not finding diatoms does not rule out the Columbia River.  As Georger said, diatoms need oxygen, and if the bills were deprived of oxygen for a required length of time, as in being buried under sand for several years, then the diatoms wouldn't show up.  The bills showed up on the shore of the Columbia River, tattered and torn -- if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.  It seems probable the money and the Columbia River are connected. 

I've never named a suspect or committed to any theory thus far these past 4 years -- but the one thing that seems to be coming up time and again is the FBI -- their incompetence, secrecy, inconsistencies, and possible cover-up.  Where are the money shards the FBI agents, and others, say were found at Tina Bar?  (Read Bruce's chapter below, he explains it all).  Nowhere to be found.  Where are the cigarette butts?  Nowhere to be found.  It seems anything and everything that could shed light on the case, or be evidence, seems to mysteriously disappear.  The FBI usually claims ignorance or has no comment.  My conclusion: they got duped and outsmarted by a guy who was just one of us, and they're too arrogant -- and ashamed -- to embrace their shortcomings.  The best investigative group in the world got outsmarted by one guy.  I'll tell you who my guy is in this case -- it's DB Cooper himself.  Almost 43 years now and no one has ever found him or conclusively identified him.  He pulled off the great caper, he's the smart one here, he's made the great FBI look like a bunch of bumbling idiots. I have finally named my suspect, it's DB Cooper himself.  He got by with a little help from his friends and he got lucky too, no doubt, but he still pulled it off, and we're all still here scratching our heads -- 43 years later.  He's my guy.... MeyerLouie


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Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK

Hey Tom, and thanks for coming. I know we can go to your website and read what you've written there, but can you give the central reasons/facts why you conclude 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' cannot account for the money being at Tina Bar ?

Maybe we need to define what 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' is?

Thanks.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK

Meyer I can't resist asking: Were you DB Cooper?   :)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Tom Kaye on March 10, 2014, 01:23:16 PM
We spent most of the time on the black bills that turned out to be contaminated. Had we known that, then of course we would have ignored them and looked at the other bills. Had we been there the day they were discovered then the rubber bands could have told us more. Finding bills from the center of the stack would have also been helpful. We could have looked to see if there was sand in between the bills which would have indicated they washed up there. If they were super clean, then it would have been more likely that the money didn't come via the river.

As for the diatoms, I would not claim that there are no diatoms on the bills. It is more correct to say we didn't find any. Looking back at my notes just now we never looked at the green money under the SEM so it could have had diatoms on them.

Tom
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 10, 2014, 03:19:03 PM
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We spent most of the time on the black bills that turned out to be contaminated. Had we known that, then of course we would have ignored them and looked at the other bills. Had we been there the day they were discovered then the rubber bands could have told us more. Finding bills from the center of the stack would have also been helpful. We could have looked to see if there was sand in between the bills which would have indicated they washed up there. If they were super clean, then it would have been more likely that the money didn't come via the river.

As for the diatoms, I would not claim that there are no diatoms on the bills. It is more correct to say we didn't find any. Looking back at my notes just now we never looked at the green money under the SEM so it could have had diatoms on them.

Tom

Tom, in the notes given us by Larry are lab reports referring to (a) 'LAB ANALYSIS -  4 ADDITIONAL BILLS PROVIDED BY CRYSTAL INGRAM' and (b) lab analysis specimens Q58, Q59, etc. and (c) lab analysis Q61... which  speak about sediments found between the bills, sand types, and conclusions. I assume you have these documents.
Thanks.
 
Also, if you don't mind: How do you rate the manganese levels found in the bills you examined? High - Mid Level - Low ?  What do you think the presence of manganese is due to?
   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: MeyerLouie on March 12, 2014, 04:03:09 AM
I was there, I was on the Columbia 11/24/71, I remember that night so clearly.  Actually, DB landed on my car that night.  I took him to Twisp and he ended up marrying that 3-breasted lady with all the horses.  DB was a bottle baby, you know -- all that frustration bottled up for so many years -- well, as they say, the rest is history....Meyer

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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Not finding diatoms does not rule out the Columbia River.  As Georger said, diatoms need oxygen, and if the bills were deprived of oxygen for a required length of time, as in being buried under sand for several years, then the diatoms wouldn't show up.  The bills showed up on the shore of the Columbia River, tattered and torn -- if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.  It seems probable the money and the Columbia River are connected. 

I've never named a suspect or committed to any theory thus far these past 4 years -- but the one thing that seems to be coming up time and again is the FBI -- their incompetence, secrecy, inconsistencies, and possible cover-up.  Where are the money shards the FBI agents, and others, say were found at Tina Bar?  (Read Bruce's chapter below, he explains it all).  Nowhere to be found.  Where are the cigarette butts?  Nowhere to be found.  It seems anything and everything that could shed light on the case, or be evidence, seems to mysteriously disappear.  The FBI usually claims ignorance or has no comment.  My conclusion: they got duped and outsmarted by a guy who was just one of us, and they're too arrogant -- and ashamed -- to embrace their shortcomings.  The best investigative group in the world got outsmarted by one guy.  I'll tell you who my guy is in this case -- it's DB Cooper himself.  Almost 43 years now and no one has ever found him or conclusively identified him.  He pulled off the great caper, he's the smart one here, he's made the great FBI look like a bunch of bumbling idiots. I have finally named my suspect, it's DB Cooper himself.  He got by with a little help from his friends and he got lucky too, no doubt, but he still pulled it off, and we're all still here scratching our heads -- 43 years later.  He's my guy.... MeyerLouie


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Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK

Hey Tom, and thanks for coming. I know we can go to your website and read what you've written there, but can you give the central reasons/facts why you conclude 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' cannot account for the money being at Tina Bar ?

Maybe we need to define what 'a plausible NATURAL explanation' is?

Thanks.
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I don't know of any means that the money could be tied to Ariel. If we did I would certainly have tried it. The diatoms were a good idea but we didn't find any on the money.  The money we dipped in the Columbia showed diatoms  right away, the lack of them on the Cooper Cash is another mystery but again we did not look over a large portion of the bills. The cash at TB remains an enigma.

TK

Meyer I can't resist asking: Were you DB Cooper?   :)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 12, 2014, 06:24:58 AM
"Meyer I can't resist asking: Were you DB Cooper?"

I thought Guru was the only poster under suspicion for being Cooper  8)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: MeyerLouie on March 13, 2014, 01:27:33 AM
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"Meyer I can't resist asking: Were you DB Cooper?"

I thought Guru was the only poster under suspicion for being Cooper  8)

I want so bad to be DB Cooper.  Has anyone consulted a psychic yet?  The truth is out there somewhere, what really happened is in the cosmos somewhere -- we can use all the help we can get, right?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 13, 2014, 04:32:03 AM
One hypothesis about the money find that has not received any attention as far as I know is the notion that the FBI planted the money at Tina Bar to throw the public and us off the trail.  Consider this:

We know that the ground search in the Ariel area was modest in the extreme.  It was conducted primarily by the locals and the feds called them off after four days.  According to the under-sheriff who coordinated the ground search, his groups only covered about one square mile out of about 20. 

At the same time we now know that the feds spent two weeks searching in the Washougal, according to Special Agent Gary Tallis at the Portland Symposium.

Also, Rataczak told me his was east of Victor 23 and Himms says that Bill told him he was flying over the Washougal when Cooper jumped.

So consider that the feds got a good lead on Cooper on the upper slopes of the Washougal or captured him directly. Then some major spin game commenced and pick your favorite reason for a Cooper cover-up - covert ops in Vietnam, funky SAGE radar, or Cooper had pix of J Edgar in corpus delecti.

This angle suggests the Ariel ground search was superfluous and merely a ploy to keep the locals and lookie-loos out of the feds' hair.

So maybe the FBI got everything eventually up on the Washougal - the money, the body, all the chutes and stuff, and then decided to keep quiet about it all. As icing on the cake, they planted twenties at Tina Bar as a major mind-fuck to anyone looking closely.

Wild?  Yeah, but it connects so many dots.

Consider this- If you had a really big secret to keep secret what would you do?  How far would you go?  How far do you think the feds are willing to go to protect powerful people, Nat Security, etc?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: sailshaw on March 13, 2014, 10:13:53 AM
Bruce:

The money find at Tina's bar just happens to be the same amount (three packs of $20 or $6,000) that DB offered the Flight Crew and they refused it! What would DB do then with the three packs of $20 as he has the bag tied up and around his waist? I think he put the three packs into the paper sack he brought on-board, rolled it up and stuffed it into his shirt. While jumping into the "blast", the paper bag could have been blown out of the shirt and be the carrier that took the three packs to some trees and then over the years to Tina's Bar. The sack would have provided floatation and protection for the three packs and kept them all together until time and weather left only the three pack in the sand. To me this is a logical explanation as to how the money got to Tina's Bar with out any "Monkey Business" on the part of the FBI and explains why the three packs were all stacked together as the bag kept them that way until dissolved.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Parrotheadvol on March 13, 2014, 11:30:56 AM
Has it been confirmed that he offered that amount to the flight crew? I thought that was shot down.

Secondly, if the force was great enough to blow the back out of his shirt, could we expect the bag and bundles to stay intact through the exit and all the way to the ground?

Still, I like this theory better than a plant, by the government or anyone else.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 13, 2014, 03:53:13 PM
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One hypothesis about the money find that has not received any attention as far as I know is the notion that the FBI planted the money at Tina Bar to throw the public and us off the trail.  Consider this:

We know that the ground search in the Ariel area was modest in the extreme.  It was conducted primarily by the locals and the feds called them off after four days.  According to the under-sheriff who coordinated the ground search, his groups only covered about one square mile out of about 20. 

At the same time we now know that the feds spent two weeks searching in the Washougal, according to Special Agent Gary Tallis at the Portland Symposium.

Also, Rataczak told me his was east of Victor 23 and Himms says that Bill told him he was flying over the Washougal when Cooper jumped.

So consider that the feds got a good lead on Cooper on the upper slopes of the Washougal or captured him directly. Then some major spin game commenced and pick your favorite reason for a Cooper cover-up - covert ops in Vietnam, funky SAGE radar, or Cooper had pix of J Edgar in corpus delecti.

This angle suggests the Ariel ground search was superfluous and merely a ploy to keep the locals and lookie-loos out of the feds' hair.

So maybe the FBI got everything eventually up on the Washougal - the money, the body, all the chutes and stuff, and then decided to keep quiet about it all. As icing on the cake, they planted twenties at Tina Bar as a major mind-fuck to anyone looking closely.

Wild?  Yeah, but it connects so many dots.

Consider this- If you had a really big secret to keep secret what would you do?  How far would you go?  How far do you think the feds are willing to go to protect powerful people, Nat Security, etc?

Bruce, the FBI did not plant the money on Tina Bar ... any more than they planted the Moon in its orbit!

The only "Three Bundles" is in people minds ....


 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Parrotheadvol on March 13, 2014, 04:24:08 PM
My post was supposed to say: "if the force was great enough to blow the BAG out of his shirt".

I know it has to be simple, but I can't figure out how to edit. Any help is appreciated.

EDIT: I was able to edit this post. Looks like you are unable to edit once someone else has posted after you. I was unaware of that.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 13, 2014, 04:43:17 PM
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Bruce:

The money find at Tina's bar just happens to be the same amount (three packs of $20 or $6,000) that DB offered the Flight Crew and they refused it! What would DB do then with the three packs of $20 as he has the bag tied up and around his waist? I think he put the three packs into the paper sack he brought on-board, rolled it up and stuffed it into his shirt. While jumping into the "blast", the paper bag could have been blown out of the shirt and be the carrier that took the three packs to some trees and then over the years to Tina's Bar. The sack would have provided floatation and protection for the three packs and kept them all together until time and weather left only the three pack in the sand. To me this is a logical explanation as to how the money got to Tina's Bar with out any "Monkey Business" on the part of the FBI and explains why the three packs were all stacked together as the bag kept them that way until dissolved.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com

So what year did the neatly stacked three bundles get planted on Tina Bar, with what tool?

Did the planter wear shoes or galoshes or muck-lucks?

Was the planter missing the ring finger of his left hand?




 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 13, 2014, 06:37:33 PM
Lets try and keep responses civil.....

here is what ckret said about the money, and the amount offered....

"When Tina brought the money to Cooper, Cooper started talking excitedly about it (Flo's assessment about him being child like). He talked about how heavy it was and had Flo hold the bag so she could feel the weight. Tina then joked with Cooper about it being a lot of money and could she have some. Cooper reached into the bag and gave her a bundle of money. Tina then said to him she was just joking and that she could not accept gratuities and handed the bundle back to Cooper."

It appears that it was only one bundle.... 8)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 13, 2014, 06:54:11 PM
Here is some more from ckret. it's some what money related, so I'll post it here.

"Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag. He checked the money and made statements about that. He stated several times, "no funny stuff," providing nonfunctioning equipment would be funy stuff. Reason dictates that if he new the reserve was a dummy he would have said something about that as well.

I doubt that Cooper would have been able to gain any information about the wind conditions by throwing a chute off the air stairs. It was dark, the chute would have instantly disappeared from his sight the moment he let go of it.

Of course almost anything is possible, but the evidence points to him jumping with it, not that he did, it just points in that direction."
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 14, 2014, 12:11:57 AM
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Bruce:

The money find at Tina's bar just happens to be the same amount (three packs of $20 or $6,000) that DB offered the Flight Crew and they refused it! What would DB do then with the three packs of $20 as he has the bag tied up and around his waist? I think he put the three packs into the paper sack he brought on-board, rolled it up and stuffed it into his shirt. While jumping into the "blast", the paper bag could have been blown out of the shirt and be the carrier that took the three packs to some trees and then over the years to Tina's Bar. The sack would have provided floatation and protection for the three packs and kept them all together until time and weather left only the three pack in the sand. To me this is a logical explanation as to how the money got to Tina's Bar with out any "Monkey Business" on the part of the FBI and explains why the three packs were all stacked together as the bag kept them that way until dissolved.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com

So what year did the neatly stacked three bundles get planted on Tina Bar, with what tool?

Im expressing my deep frustration that "Tres Bundolas" has been fixicated in the lexicon. Let's cover some historical
territory: (you have no idea how much work it took me to :dredge: the following quotes out. 

Vancouver WASH/UPI Feb20 1980: Only one money "bundle" from the $200,000 hijacking ransom given master
criminal D.B. Cooper eight years ago has been found, the FBI said today. "It's all from one bundle",  said John
Pringle, assistant special agent in charge . . . . 


book: "After Ingram's find of part of one bundle FBI agents found a few more dirty fragments of bills . . .

Daily Record Feb 15, 1980...: "This is the area where a Vancouver picnicking family last Sunday stumbled on a
tattered wad of bills buried three to six inches of sand. The wad had remains of a rubber band around it... 


Spokane Wash February 15, 1980 ... "Pringle disagreed with Himmelsbach's idea on when the money arrived ...
the total amount  that was there prior to the find is undetermined ...


Spokesman Review, 20 Feb 1960: "Meanwhile the FBI said geologists concluded the less than one bundle . . . 

Portland, Feb 20 1980: 'The boy ..... turned up three bundles of money ... appeared to be wrapped with rubber
bands ..... a short distance below the surface.'


Only one bundle the FBI said today has been found at the new location ...

Post Standard Feb 14, 1980: "FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach said more money was dug up by agents Tuesday
afternoon and Wednesday morning" ... "The first money was found in three packages all bound together by
rubber bands" ... "One agent at the site said he also dug up a formless fist-size clump of money he described
as "a wadded up bunch of rotted #20 dollar bills."


'The conservator at the auction company said she has identified 15 more serial numbers, and parts of others,
for a total of perhaps 25 new numbers, and she wonders what additional serial numbers the insurance company
and the FBI money would reveal. It's obviously something more than $5800 which was the published figure.


3-Bundolas! :)

Im sorry for the margin wrap problems - have no idea and frankly no longer care to solve it - it is what it is.



 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on March 14, 2014, 12:42:12 AM
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Im expressing my deep frustration that "Tres Bundolas" has been fixicated in the lexicon. Let's cover some historical
territory: (you have no idea how much work it took me to :dredge: the following quotes out. 

Vancouver WASH/UPI Feb20 1980: Only one money "bundle" from the $200,000 hijacking ransom given master
criminal D.B. Cooper eight years ago has been found, the FBI said today. "It's all from one bundle",  said John
Pringle, assistant special agent in charge . . . . 


book: "After Ingram's find of part of one bundle FBI agents found a few more dirty fragments of bills . . .

Daily Record Feb 15, 1980...: "This is the area where a Vancouver picnicking family last Sunday stumbled on a
tattered wad of bills buried three to six inches of sand. The wad had remains of a rubber band around it... 


Spokane Wash February 15, 1980 ... "Pringle disagreed with Himmelsbach's idea on when the money arrived ...
the total amount  that was there prior to the find is undetermined ...


Spokesman Review, 20 Feb 1960: "Meanwhile the FBI said geologists concluded the less than one bundle . . . 

Portland, Feb 20 1980: 'The boy ..... turned up three bundles of money ... appeared to be wrapped with rubber
bands ..... a short distance below the surface.'


Only one bundle the FBI said today has been found at the new location ...

Post Standard Feb 14, 1980: "FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach said more money was dug up by agents Tuesday
afternoon and Wednesday morning" ... "The first money was found in three packages all bound together by
rubber bands" ... "One agent at the site said he also dug up a formless fist-size clump of money he described
as "a wadded up bunch of rotted #20 dollar bills."


'The conservator at the auction company said she has identified 15 more serial numbers, and parts of others,
for a total of perhaps 25 new numbers, and she wonders what additional serial numbers the insurance company
and the FBI money would reveal. It's obviously something more than $5800 which was the published figure.


Im sorry for the margin wrap problems - have no idea and frankly no longer care to solve it - it is what it is.

You musta magically fixed it.  I don't see any margin wrap problem in this post.

I think the possibility should be considered of there being "bundles" and "bundles."  What if there were "packets" (bundles) each containing about $2000, and that some numbers of these were bundled together.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 14, 2014, 01:08:46 AM
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Im expressing my deep frustration that "Tres Bundolas" has been fixicated in the lexicon. Let's cover some historical
territory: (you have no idea how much work it took me to :dredge: the following quotes out. 

Vancouver WASH/UPI Feb20 1980: Only one money "bundle" from the $200,000 hijacking ransom given master
criminal D.B. Cooper eight years ago has been found, the FBI said today. "It's all from one bundle",  said John
Pringle, assistant special agent in charge . . . . 


book: "After Ingram's find of part of one bundle FBI agents found a few more dirty fragments of bills . . .

Daily Record Feb 15, 1980...: "This is the area where a Vancouver picnicking family last Sunday stumbled on a
tattered wad of bills buried three to six inches of sand. The wad had remains of a rubber band around it... 


Spokane Wash February 15, 1980 ... "Pringle disagreed with Himmelsbach's idea on when the money arrived ...
the total amount  that was there prior to the find is undetermined ...


Spokesman Review, 20 Feb 1960: "Meanwhile the FBI said geologists concluded the less than one bundle . . . 

Portland, Feb 20 1980: 'The boy ..... turned up three bundles of money ... appeared to be wrapped with rubber
bands ..... a short distance below the surface.'


Only one bundle the FBI said today has been found at the new location ...

Post Standard Feb 14, 1980: "FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach said more money was dug up by agents Tuesday
afternoon and Wednesday morning" ... "The first money was found in three packages all bound together by
rubber bands" ... "One agent at the site said he also dug up a formless fist-size clump of money he described
as "a wadded up bunch of rotted #20 dollar bills."


'The conservator at the auction company said she has identified 15 more serial numbers, and parts of others,
for a total of perhaps 25 new numbers, and she wonders what additional serial numbers the insurance company
and the FBI money would reveal. It's obviously something more than $5800 which was the published figure.


Im sorry for the margin wrap problems - have no idea and frankly no longer care to solve it - it is what it is.

You musta magically fixed it.  I don't see any margin wrap problem in this post.

I think the possibility should be considered of there being "bundles" and "bundles."  What if there were "packets" (bundles) each containing about $2000, and that some numbers of these were bundled together.

The fact is, there is nothing to document more than '3 bundles'. Tom etal went up to Seattle and apparently found
nothing to confirm more than 3 bundles. So we are restricted to 3 bundle theory alone. And that's it. 3 bundles or
the highway ...

Coop tried to give Tina 3 bundles. OK. Stuck it back in his coat pocket when she declined. OK. The truth of that no
longer matters.

I wont go off the sanctioned rails again.  ;D

   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 14, 2014, 02:41:46 AM
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One hypothesis about the money find that has not received any attention as far as I know is the notion that the FBI planted the money at Tina Bar to throw the public and us off the trail.  Consider this:

We know that the ground search in the Ariel area was modest in the extreme.  It was conducted primarily by the locals and the feds called them off after four days.  According to the under-sheriff who coordinated the ground search, his groups only covered about one square mile out of about 20. 

At the same time we now know that the feds spent two weeks searching in the Washougal, according to Special Agent Gary Tallis at the Portland Symposium.

Also, Rataczak told me his was east of Victor 23 and Himms says that Bill told him he was flying over the Washougal when Cooper jumped.

So consider that the feds got a good lead on Cooper on the upper slopes of the Washougal or captured him directly. Then some major spin game commenced and pick your favorite reason for a Cooper cover-up - covert ops in Vietnam, funky SAGE radar, or Cooper had pix of J Edgar in corpus delecti.

This angle suggests the Ariel ground search was superfluous and merely a ploy to keep the locals and lookie-loos out of the feds' hair.

So maybe the FBI got everything eventually up on the Washougal - the money, the body, all the chutes and stuff, and then decided to keep quiet about it all. As icing on the cake, they planted twenties at Tina Bar as a major mind-fuck to anyone looking closely.

Wild?  Yeah, but it connects so many dots.

Consider this- If you had a really big secret to keep secret what would you do?  How far would you go?  How far do you think the feds are willing to go to protect powerful people, Nat Security, etc?

Bruce, the FBI did not plant the money on Tina Bar ... any more than they planted the Moon in its orbit!

The only "Three Bundles" is in people minds ....


Okay, Georger, let's say you are 100% correct, and the feds didn't plant a thing.  Then why do we have so many inconsistencies about the ground search and the money find? Why was the immediate search in Ariel and Amboy so modest?  Why were the feds up in the Washougal for an extra week or two when they called off the ground search in Ariel? How come there was no substantive plume field at Tina Bar area? Where are the shards that Himms claims his team dug out of the sand?

I can accept the notion that the feds didn't plant the money, but plenty of other questions still await an answer.  I'm just trying to connect the dots; you make the call.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 14, 2014, 02:44:45 AM
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Bruce:

The money find at Tina's bar just happens to be the same amount (three packs of $20 or $6,000) that DB offered the Flight Crew and they refused it! What would DB do then with the three packs of $20 as he has the bag tied up and around his waist? I think he put the three packs into the paper sack he brought on-board, rolled it up and stuffed it into his shirt. While jumping into the "blast", the paper bag could have been blown out of the shirt and be the carrier that took the three packs to some trees and then over the years to Tina's Bar. The sack would have provided floatation and protection for the three packs and kept them all together until time and weather left only the three pack in the sand. To me this is a logical explanation as to how the money got to Tina's Bar with out any "Monkey Business" on the part of the FBI and explains why the three packs were all stacked together as the bag kept them that way until dissolved.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com


Sail, you and I have had a discussion about Los Tres Bundolas before, but we need to have it again.  Where do you get the idea that Cooper offered the Flight Attendants three bundles and then stuffed them into his shirt or jacket?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 14, 2014, 02:47:33 AM
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Bruce:

The money find at Tina's bar just happens to be the same amount (three packs of $20 or $6,000) that DB offered the Flight Crew and they refused it! What would DB do then with the three packs of $20 as he has the bag tied up and around his waist? I think he put the three packs into the paper sack he brought on-board, rolled it up and stuffed it into his shirt. While jumping into the "blast", the paper bag could have been blown out of the shirt and be the carrier that took the three packs to some trees and then over the years to Tina's Bar. The sack would have provided floatation and protection for the three packs and kept them all together until time and weather left only the three pack in the sand. To me this is a logical explanation as to how the money got to Tina's Bar with out any "Monkey Business" on the part of the FBI and explains why the three packs were all stacked together as the bag kept them that way until dissolved.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com

So what year did the neatly stacked three bundles get planted on Tina Bar, with what tool?

Did the planter wear shoes or galoshes or muck-lucks?

Was the planter missing the ring finger of his left hand?

I'll have to get back to you on this, Georger.  I need to do a bit of remote viewing on this, and that takes a while.  I'm not an instant-psychic-on-demand kind of guy...

...yet.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 14, 2014, 04:21:13 AM
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One hypothesis about the money find that has not received any attention as far as I know is the notion that the FBI planted the money at Tina Bar to throw the public and us off the trail.  Consider this:

We know that the ground search in the Ariel area was modest in the extreme.  It was conducted primarily by the locals and the feds called them off after four days.  According to the under-sheriff who coordinated the ground search, his groups only covered about one square mile out of about 20. 

At the same time we now know that the feds spent two weeks searching in the Washougal, according to Special Agent Gary Tallis at the Portland Symposium.

Also, Rataczak told me his was east of Victor 23 and Himms says that Bill told him he was flying over the Washougal when Cooper jumped.

So consider that the feds got a good lead on Cooper on the upper slopes of the Washougal or captured him directly. Then some major spin game commenced and pick your favorite reason for a Cooper cover-up - covert ops in Vietnam, funky SAGE radar, or Cooper had pix of J Edgar in corpus delecti.

This angle suggests the Ariel ground search was superfluous and merely a ploy to keep the locals and lookie-loos out of the feds' hair.

So maybe the FBI got everything eventually up on the Washougal - the money, the body, all the chutes and stuff, and then decided to keep quiet about it all. As icing on the cake, they planted twenties at Tina Bar as a major mind-fuck to anyone looking closely.

Wild?  Yeah, but it connects so many dots.

Consider this- If you had a really big secret to keep secret what would you do?  How far would you go?  How far do you think the feds are willing to go to protect powerful people, Nat Security, etc?

Bruce, the FBI did not plant the money on Tina Bar ... any more than they planted the Moon in its orbit!

The only "Three Bundles" is in people minds ....


Okay, Georger, let's say you are 100% correct, and the feds didn't plant a thing.  Then why do we have so many inconsistencies about the ground search and the money find? Why was the immediate search in Ariel and Amboy so modest?  Why were the feds up in the Washougal for an extra week or two when they called off the ground search in Ariel? How come there was no substantive plume field at Tina Bar area? Where are the shards that Himms claims his team dug out of the sand?

I can accept the notion that the feds didn't plant the money, but plenty of other questions still await an answer.  I'm just trying to connect the dots; you make the call.

I have no answers. Just a little lab work done by Tom Kaye I was privy to for a while, a few FBI docs sent for background, a smattering of assumed knowledge of the rest of the case (possibly), a million unanswered questions,
and that about covers it.

$5800 is less than 3 bundles IF you assume 2000.00 per bundle. So which side was the missing bills on? Top. Bottom. Middle?

In my humble opinion no real answers are available/possible. I am now for the first time in my life very grateful I studied Godel's incompleteness theorem at the age of 18. I never thought it would come in handy. Boy was I mistaken!  :) :) :)

The whole Cooper case and every aspect of it is: Undecidable, as a formal fact of reality.

 
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on March 14, 2014, 06:34:21 AM
A "bundle" of strapped cash a/k/a a "brick" contains 1,000 notes.

The 1,000 notes are a "bundle" of 10 "straps" of a single denomination of currency or notes.

Each strap contains 100 notes of single denomination. Therefore a "bundle" contains 10 straps X 100 notes which equal 1,000 notes.
If the notes are $20s (as in this example) then the value of 1 Strap = $2,000 and the value of 1 Bundle = $20,000.

100 notes is the worldwide standard count for one strap - regardless of denomination. 10 straps always = one bundle.

The U.S. Department of the Treasury packages twenty dollar bills in bundles of one-hundred. One bundle of twenty dollar bills is equal to $2,000. Bills packaged by the treasury department are bundled with paper straps fixed across their width.

didn't Carr say the "bundles" were different to make it appear the money was quickly put together? has the FBI ever concluded 100 bundles were in the bag?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 14, 2014, 01:54:24 PM
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A "bundle" of strapped cash a/k/a a "brick" contains 1,000 notes.

The 1,000 notes are a "bundle" of 10 "straps" of a single denomination of currency or notes.

Each strap contains 100 notes of single denomination. Therefore a "bundle" contains 10 straps X 100 notes which equal 1,000 notes.
If the notes are $20s (as in this example) then the value of 1 Strap = $2,000 and the value of 1 Bundle = $20,000.

100 notes is the worldwide standard count for one strap - regardless of denomination. 10 straps always = one bundle.

The U.S. Department of the Treasury packages twenty dollar bills in bundles of one-hundred. One bundle of twenty dollar bills is equal to $2,000. Bills packaged by the treasury department are bundled with paper straps fixed across their width.

didn't Carr say the "bundles" were different to make it appear the money was quickly put together? has the FBI ever concluded 100 bundles were in the bag?

Those who know or could help - aren't talking. Everything else is conjecture.

Ckret wrote:
Here is the problem with all of the folks that have been forwarded as Db Cooper, no evidence, none, not a piece and to top it off their dead (exception of Mayfield).

I don't mean to call anyone out, but give me just one document that directly supports just one claim made. So much has been brought forward, surely there exists just one small piece of paper that can support any part of a claim. i am not asking for proof that someone is or is not cooper, just one piece of paper that can support just one small aspect of a persons story.

Is that too much to ask for? you can go on and on and on (I'll put the little dots in so I don't have to keep writing on and on)...... But until you provide something that can support your claim it's just an interesting story. The New York Times best seller list is full of examples of interesting stories, its called fiction.

So, for those of you putting forward a person of interest and you are asserting it as a matter of fact, then "show me the facts" I can't hear you!!! say it louder "show me the facts!!!!" louder, I still can't hear you, "SHOW ME THE FACTS!!!!!" Now dance when you say it, "SHOW ME THE FACTS!!!!"

Thats better, now we have something to talk about.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 14, 2014, 11:23:28 PM
Yes, Georger, our work on Norjak may be only an advanced course in Zen unemotionality.  So many questions, so few facts and even fewer answers.

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 15, 2014, 01:50:44 PM
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Yes, Georger, our work on Norjak may be only an advanced course in Zen unemotionality.  So many questions, so few facts and even fewer answers.

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?

Well let me put it this way. At the Country Club a lot gets covered up. It's simply the nature of the place. See all those awnings covering up the parking area? Awning over the patio? No bird shall fowl our party! The food. Tee-off on No.1. The Mayor's daughter! The annual Cooper Surprise has been going on for 40+ years! Look at the cast of characters! Look who signed up here! There's your answer ... is that a conspiracy or Caddy Shack? Its not a cover up - it's layering. Everyone is strutting his or her stuff! Some just want to be seen but not heard (The Money Brothers!).  The Eyes & Ears of Texas are upon you .... you know the drill. But our Esteemed new President is keeping the Berserkers out... maybe!  ;) ;)

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: smokin99 on March 15, 2014, 07:50:48 PM
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Yes, Georger, our work on Norjak may be only an advanced course in Zen unemotionality.  So many questions, so few facts and even fewer answers.

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?

Are you saying, after all this time, that in some ways, BK might actually not be full of caca?   ;) :)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on March 16, 2014, 04:09:59 AM
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Yes, Georger,

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?

No! I think large organisations have a difficult time dealing with small crime, sometimes, especially when the 'bank robber' has a 727 flying at 10,000 feet at 160 knots over miles of terrain to make his escape in. 'Ever tried to keep up with and outrun a 727 ?  :)  That kind of thing tends to put people on the ground at a distinct disadvantage. And in spite of that the FBI and law enforcement have a near perfect record!

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: sailshaw on March 16, 2014, 09:51:50 AM
To Larry Carr

You say:  "So, for those of you putting forward a person of interest and you are asserting it as a matter of fact, then "show me the facts" I can't hear you!!! say it louder "show me the facts!!!!" louder, I still can't hear you, "SHOW ME THE FACTS!!!!!" Now dance when you say it, "SHOW ME THE FACTS!!!!"

I say  " Larry you have the evidence in your FBI files that will blow this case wide open. I am speaking about the four letters sent just following Norjak to the newspapers. You have those letters and envelopes and still have not tested the stamps/envelope flaps for DNA to compare with the DNA you have of my #1 suspect (Sheridan L. Peterson). A match to the DNA from the letters would prove Sheridan was not in Nepal but rather in Portland (the scene of the crime). The stamp/envelope flap DNA is real evidence that the FBI has in their files and yet to be looked at, so "YOU HAVE THE FACTS" just study and compare and the case is closed finally. Break the case  by breaking Sheridan's "perfect alibi" that he was in Nepal at the time of the crime. I say it louder YOU HAVE THE FACTS so just LOOK AT THEM". It is almost to late but remember "the FBI ALWAYS gets their man".

Larry, I am sure you think the four letters were just from a "kook" but letter three has the salutation "The System that Beats the System". That was Sheridan's mantra that I heard over and over during his one month stay at my home and while he was doing advance planning for Norjak (ten years in the planning).

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw@aol.com
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 17, 2014, 04:17:18 AM
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Yes, Georger, our work on Norjak may be only an advanced course in Zen unemotionality.  So many questions, so few facts and even fewer answers.

But don't you think there is a compelling symmetry to the notion that the feds buried the money and were running a spin job cover-up?

Are you saying, after all this time, that in some ways, BK might actually not be full of caca?   ;) :)

Yup.  There may be some truth to The Crazy One.

But what I think is more likely is that BK has followed closely much of our discussion, especially the MKULTRA stuff, and projected out a scenario.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 14, 2014, 10:09:37 PM
Tom seems to have a different version on the money find. it appears he tells the story by using a long distance travel. he also includes on his site that a plant would be speculation.

Here is a quote from Tom on this very site.......

We spent most of the time on the black bills that turned out to be contaminated. Had we known that, then of course we would have ignored them and looked at the other bills. Had we been there the day they were discovered then the rubber bands could have told us more. Finding bills from the center of the stack would have also been helpful. We could have looked to see if there was sand in between the bills which would have indicated they washed up there. If they were super clean, then it would have been more likely that the money didn't come via the river.

As for the diatoms, I would not claim that there are no diatoms on the bills. It is more correct to say we didn't find any. Looking back at my notes just now we never looked at the green money under the SEM so it could have had diatoms on them.

Tom
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 14, 2014, 10:11:31 PM
he goes on to add....

Georger requested clarification on why we discount "natural means"

First off if you take as fact that Cooper jumped around Ariel then the money had to move 20 miles or so to get to TB.  Water is the only natural means to move the money that far.  We traced the tributaries to the Washougal and none of them made it up to the area around Ariel. The Lewis river route requires a move upstream to get to TB which would be unnatural. So unless a bird flew it there I can't personally think of any other way to move the bundles. 

Now if you want to argue that the jump was off or the flight path was different that's fine but we found no evidence that supported a different jump zone or flight path from what was presented in the archives.

PS there WERE money fragments in the FBI archive. Only a few crumbs in a match box size container.

Tom


Ok lets hope that things remain civil and scientific here.

We have not heard the final story on the money find. It presents way more questions than it answers. I suspect that if we ever do get the right story we will say "I never would have guessed that!"

With everything we did, we can not find a plausible NATURAL explanation for the money to get there from 20 miles away. Even taking that out of the equation, a rational explanation is still hard to find.

TK
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 14, 2014, 10:14:24 PM
Now, a quote from Tom's site.

If natural means provides no plausible answer, then the other two possibilities are mechanical or Fig. 7 Reconstruction of the positions of the bills in the stack when buried. The upper left corner of this bill shows a stack of fragments which were used in the reconstruction of their positions.Fig. 7 Reconstruction of the positions of the bills in the stack when buried. The upper left corner of this bill shows a stack of fragments which were used in the reconstruction of their positions.human intervention. Of those two, mechanical methods are more Fig. 6 Section of one dollar bill buried in sand filled jar for 33 months.Fig. 6 Section of one dollar bill buried in sand filled jar for 33 months.problematic than human explanations. Since Coopers body was never found, if he did walk out of the woods following the jump, we can speculate that he must have had some human interaction that could have eventually led to the money being buried on Tena Bar. How the Cooper bundles came to be buried where they were remains as big a mystery as who D.B. Cooper was.

(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/Burial_sml.jpg)
(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/BillStack2_sml.jpg)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 14, 2014, 11:02:15 PM
Now, hopefully I can get Tom back on here. I'm wondering if he is basing this on the original jump area. are we to conclude that the money couldn't have arrived after years of being in a secluded area in the bag protected for a period of time before being released through deterioration of the bag over time. since so much time has past, how much evidence has been erased in the first place? Georger I haven't mentioned anything about what happened when the money was found, or prior to being turned over to the FBI. I don't remember if this was made public, or if I should include this information without checking with you?

I just don't think Cooper would have done such a thing. why hope someone would find the cash. if Cooper had the idea of making it aware he was alive, why not send a crisp $20 bill right to the source. the FBI. there would be no question of him being involved, or someone really close to him that knows he survived. plus, I've said it many times. they were nowhere close to finding him, why would a plant be necessary? if the whole purpose would be to taunt the FBI. the best way is to mail it right to them! that would assure Cooper they got the message, and he would be laughing away.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on June 18, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
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Now, hopefully I can get Tom back on here. I'm wondering if he is basing this on the original jump area. are we to conclude that the money couldn't have arrived after years of being in a secluded area in the bag protected for a period of time before being released through deterioration of the bag over time. since so much time has past, how much evidence has been erased in the first place? Georger I haven't mentioned anything about what happened when the money was found, or prior to being turned over to the FBI. I don't remember if this was made public, or if I should include this information without checking with you?

I just don't think Cooper would have done such a thing. why hope someone would find the cash. if Cooper had the idea of making it aware he was alive, why not send a crisp $20 bill right to the source. the FBI. there would be no question of him being involved, or someone really close to him that knows he survived. plus, I've said it many times. they were nowhere close to finding him, why would a plant be necessary? if the whole purpose would be to taunt the FBI. the best way is to mail it right to them! that would assure Cooper they got the message, and he would be laughing away.

So many things come to mind, in retrospect! Obviously the 'green bills' should have been examined. The full slate of tests I had originally planned should have been conducted which would have meant transferring Tom's three bills and other samples to others after Tom's work was done.   

There is nothing to warrant the word "plant" imo. There is no evidence it was a plant. One could also speculate that Cooper survived the jump, walked south intending to get across the Columbia, was afraid to cross at I5 or using the railroad bridge at Vancouver, made his west perhaps into the Shillapoo, and lost or was separated from his money. Flooding in the area eventually brings a remnant of the money to Tina Bar ?  Tina Bar looks to me like a "wash-in" scenario in terms of its location fairly far down the beach vs. the entry point east just before Catapillar Island. I think R99 is correct in terms of River Rd. presenting a higher elevation dike in any wash-in scenario. This then means a
fairly narrow channel for anything entering the Fazio beach and washing down the beach to where the Igram find was found. The wash-in 'flow' options are rather limited to arrive at the Ingram find location, imo. I interpret the Ingram find as being fairly high up on the beach which to me implies a 'high water' scenario. If the Cook claim is correct and bills were found further down the beach from the Ingram find then that strengthens the idea of a flow scenario.

These various claims of fragments east of the Ingram find (frags at 3 feet deep?) and Galen's claim of other bills being found west (down stream) of the Ingram find ... drives me crazy. Either these claims are true or they aren't. Schreuder's claims have to be accounted for. But Tom and Carol did not find 'any' fragments at Seattle! Schreuder says numerous fragments were collected and transferred to Seattle agents to be sent in for analysis. ???  Dorwin even mentions part of a decomposed brief case being found, but then retracts that.

Perhaps Cooper wandered into the area and encountered hobos who revealed him of his money (and perhaps Cooper of his life) and the Tina Bar money is a wash-in remnant of that encounter? I can say that one deputy at Vancouver thought that was a distinct possibility when the Ingram find was announced in 1980.

I agree with Tom, it would have been good to have enough bills to look for grains of sand in between the bills, and their type, in confirmation of the alleged FBI Quantico lab report which supposedly examined the Ingram bills.

I have to run here - will get back to this later. Maybe something will come to mind. I frankly feel like we let Carr and
the FBI down, in this whole matter! That is a very rare event in my life!

 


       
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on June 18, 2014, 04:24:50 PM
Georger, let me remind you that the Columbia River runs about 2 degrees EAST of NORTH at Tina Bar.  This means that upstream is to the SOUTH and downstream is to the NORTH.

Consequently, the Fazio property is on the EAST side of the River at Tina Bar and Caterpillar Island is to the SOUTH of Tina Bar.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 18, 2014, 07:40:42 PM
I have mentioned this before, but wouldn't you figure Cooper would mail some of the cash to the FBI. why take a risk someone finding the money and not saying anything. I'm not a scientist, but it appears the money was wadded up, and stuck together for the simple fact that it was in the bag for a long period protected to a certain degree, and then released into the wild :) I'm sure is was compressed to some extent being tied and tightly bound together for years sitting there getting wet & dry over and over. just another thought......
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on June 19, 2014, 03:02:00 PM
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Georger, let me remind you that the Columbia River runs about 2 degrees EAST of NORTH at Tina Bar.  This means that upstream is to the SOUTH and downstream is to the NORTH.

Consequently, the Fazio property is on the EAST side of the River at Tina Bar and Caterpillar Island is to the SOUTH of Tina Bar.

Robert99

Thats correct ...
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on June 20, 2014, 12:44:10 AM
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I have mentioned this before, but wouldn't you figure Cooper would mail some of the cash to the FBI. why take a risk someone finding the money and not saying anything. I'm not a scientist, but it appears the money was wadded up, and stuck together for the simple fact that it was in the bag for a long period protected to a certain degree, and then released into the wild :) I'm sure is was compressed to some extent being tied and tightly bound together for years sitting there getting wet & dry over and over. just another thought......

two more things come to mind I wanted to mention:

1. If the money had never been anywhere else but Tina Bar what kind of profile (of traits) would one expect to find, adjusted for time spent in different strata and at different locations on Tina Bar. The problem with this is all of the dredging sediments dumped on Tina Bar, some of that eroded by 1980, some possibly not eroded, some still in some strata below the upper active layers recently washed in in 1979 (which are fairly easy to identify trait-wise).
If the money had come up with dredge sediment deposited in 1974, what distinctive traits of that should the money show, if any? If the money is off to the side of where the dredge sediments are deposited, but arrived earlier or later than the sediments, should the bills show contamination traits of dredge sediments in any event ? These are just a few of the kinds of questions one is faced with when trying to evaluate the Tina Bar money in order to come up with any reliable conclusions -

2. Decomposition. What are the facts of the decomposition the money tells us? The history of this money and the facts of decomposition are related, inevitably. Many people asked about the holes and missing area in the bills. I think Tom made a significant discovery when he identified colonies of a bacterium as being associated with the formation of holes in the bills. (See his photos on his website.) That process is a clock and requires we define a habitat-zone. There is a forensic section in the US Treasury Dept where experts have examined thousands of samples of US currency is various states of decomposition with documented histories in many cases. I would have liked an opinion from these people.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on June 20, 2014, 01:10:53 AM
Perhaps one of the US Treasury scientists would be willing to do an analysis on his own time.  I say that because nobody currently has the money to pay for such an analysis.  And maybe the Treasury Department has some unique equipment that they would permit him or her to use.  I guess this would be a "lunch hour" project for him or her for a relatively short period of time.  That is, no one should try to make a career out of this.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on June 20, 2014, 01:19:57 AM
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Perhaps one of the US Treasury scientists would be willing to do an analysis on his own time.  I say that because nobody currently has the money to pay for such an analysis.  And maybe the Treasury Department has some unique equipment that they would permit him or her to use.  I guess this would be a "lunch hour" project for him or her for a relatively short period of time.  That is, no one should try to make a career out of this.

This lab is small and understaffed as it is. They are up to their ears in work. I dont know how Tom feels about this
but he might try to make contact ... maybe someone there would agree to view some photos and answer some questions? For all I know they may even have some bills previously recovered from the Columbia area to compare with?  Ingram also has an extensive collection of photos of his money. Maybe the FBI would be willing to contribute some bills and/or some of their photos. They definitely are a resource if they could be brought on board.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 20, 2014, 03:47:20 PM
Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on June 20, 2014, 04:01:48 PM
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 20, 2014, 04:06:48 PM
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on June 20, 2014, 10:24:27 PM
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..... But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

A cousin of mine found the paper bag around 1990, but it was empty. ;)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on June 23, 2014, 11:49:58 PM
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..... But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

A cousin of mine found the paper bag around 1990, but it was empty. ;)

I assume you are talking about Jo's paper bag? The brown paper bag in the glove compartment he stuffed bundles of money into and through out into the Columbia by the Red Lion Inn .... no doubt the same paper bag Duane had earlier when hijacking the airplane. Frugal isn't it!  ::) Your cousin could sell that brown paper bag on eBay for a lot of money! 

Webmaster help! My emoticons aren't showing or working ... is there some clicky thing I have to activate to have them pass through the maldum fornax?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 24, 2014, 12:27:19 AM
Georger, check them now. I think this set should work???
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Briefcase and Tina Bar Debris
Post by: georger on June 26, 2014, 12:18:01 AM
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...

It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different. 
   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 26, 2014, 08:44:01 PM
Well, didn't Tom basically state the money couldn't have traveled the 20 miles to the Columbia, by using the original jump area? I still think he jumped much closer to the Columbia than what was believed. this should open up doors to more possibilities of the arrival of the money. why do we have to assume it was in Washington. do we have enough proof to stay out of Oregon? which way does the water flow in Oregon? do we have enough evidence to stay in the area everyone else does with suspects? lots of dead ends in this area.....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on June 27, 2014, 03:23:32 PM
here is another look around just before crossing the Columbia. lots of factors here with the water hazards all around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on July 04, 2014, 12:09:39 AM
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Well, didn't Tom basically state the money couldn't have traveled the 20 miles to the Columbia, by using the original jump area? I still think he jumped much closer to the Columbia than what was believed. this should open up doors to more possibilities of the arrival of the money. why do we have to assume it was in Washington. do we have enough proof to stay out of Oregon? which way does the water flow in Oregon? do we have enough evidence to stay in the area everyone else does with suspects? lots of dead ends in this area.....

My understanding is, Tom feels there is no 'natural' way for the money having come to Tina Bar IF you believe in the FBI flight path, which Tom does. [Tom could and should be answering this - not me.] If there are flaws in the FBI's timeline, then conceivably Cooper bails closer to the Columbia. Sluggo/Carr thought Orchird [I guess], and Anderson casts more doubt in identifying exactly where 305 was when the socalled 'bump' occurred. If its further south than Sluggo/Carr estimated well then we are even closed to the Columbia assuming the FBI fp. 

The hangup is the assumption the money location and the flight path are directly related. So far no hard evidence links the two, regardless of what flight path you subscribe to. Neither is there any evidence of a plant, while there is evidence of a wash-in scenario because virtually everything that is found on Tina Bar is the result of hydrological action ... 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 22, 2014, 02:21:50 PM
Here are a few money location photos by Tom Kaye (see his website). Note the location carefully. I may need to make several posts to get the photos I want to present onto this thread - bare with me.
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 22, 2014, 02:23:16 PM
More money location photos:
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 22, 2014, 03:13:59 PM
Note, this photo construction uses the 9-6-74 govt photo of Tina Bar, taken shortly after dredge material had been deposited in two locations (see slump piles) on Tina Bar in August of 1974. This photo was taken before the Faxio had had a chance to spread the dredge piles out. Note* Tom's GPS location of the Ingram money find in relation to the left slump pile, a short distance downstream of the left-most dredge pile location. In this 1974 photo you can actually see the flow lines of the wet (just deposited) dredging material as it was slumping outward and downward back toward the river. The Fazio's will now spread these slump piles out (as soon as they have settled) in both directions from a mid point down the middle of each slump pile. By 1980, however, a combination of erosion and further overlayment of new sand (from high water events between 1974-1980) will have placed any remaining 1974 dredging material at a depth of about 4-8 inches, according to to Palmer's examination. Palmer of course claims that the Ingram find was deposited after the 1974 dredging deposits, between 1979 and February of 1980, based on his examination of the strata in a ditch he dug at the Ingram find location.  Note the circle the FBI put on this photo to note the Ingram find in relation to Tom's GPS location. This photo was originally submitted to the Cooper thread on Dropzone by SA Larry Carr.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Briefcase and Tina Bar Debris
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 22, 2014, 05:09:14 PM
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...

It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different. 
 

In my defense, this is the pix I was thinking about when I challenged G-1's claim that the money was found close to detritus or trees.

Help, Shut!  How do I move/copy the pix from Georger's post above??? See June 26, 2014.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Briefcase and Tina Bar Debris
Post by: georger on August 22, 2014, 05:59:01 PM
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Something is wrong with Cooper bailing where they claim he did. the area is pretty basic. during expansion over the years you would think they would have found him. it doesn't make sense to keep going north with the LZ, it gives the money more problems. Cooper must have perished somewhere past the 8:15 mark. I can't believe he survived without saying anything to anyone. I still think he would have mailed the money if his intentions were to taunt the FBI. I don't think the path is off so much north, and south as it could be east, or west. has anyone every verified whether the FBI seen the playback from the sage radar showing where the plane was? the on board recorder only gave altitudes, and direction if I'm not mistaken. was the capability of recording the screen the ATC boy's used back then? has any documentation of there statements ever been made public?

I think everyone is perplexed that nothing of Cooper has ever been found, except for a bit of his money at T_Bar. Just the placard and the money. Of course Cooper had no personal control over the placard ... does that imply he had no personal control of the money? (One does not guarantee the other). But nothing of Cooper, his chute, the brief case apparently, etc. It all just vanishes. Just the placard and ~3 bundolas! (smile). It is a puzzlement.

I would think the briefcase was tossed if you ask me. why hang on to it. plus if it was real (doubtful) I wouldn't want it to tag along. I don't know what it would look like after a drop like that. if it broke apart, I doubt someone was able to figure out what it was, or at least it's contents...

It's dangerous to assume Cooper would do this or that; all that matters is what he did do - facts vs myths (re-Sluggo). The rumor that part of a briefcase was found, is persistent. It may be nothing more than a rumor.

What is not a rumor however, is the fact that Tina Bar hosts a lot of debris, washed in from all over the place. JT even once alleged he had dropped ping-pong balls at the Washougal and several showed up on Tina Bar later! JT didn't bother to take photos or if he did he has never presented his proof. Tom and I were both wide-eyed at this revelation, after Tom had already conducted experiments and published.

Debris washing up on Tina Bar however is a fact. See the photo attached taken at the start of the excavation in 1980. Is that wide swath of debris defining a tide line? Could Cooper money have come up tangled in debris? Palmer says nothing about debris and debris routes on Tina Bar - he does document types of debris found in each of his strata layers, all of it small debris (eg. no big logs). The nature of debris which was arriving on Tina Bar 1970-1980 has yet to be defined and documented. Note also the quality of the soft sand in the picture attached. That is the soft washed sand the Ingram money was noticed in and pulled from. Note how deep heel prints of the agents are in this soft sand. This 'is' the sand that was covering the Ingram Cooper money.  I would think soft sand like that would move easily under force of water (or even wind). The difference in cohesion and compressibility of material in Palmer's upper active layer (the sand shown in the photo) and material in Palmer's deeper layers he found would be different. 
 

In my defense, this is the pix I was thinking about when I challenged G-1's claim that the money was found close to detritus or trees.

Help, Shut!  How do I move/copy the pix from Georger's post above??? See June 26, 2014.

Hold on -cool your jets! Just hold on. There appears to be a conflict in Tom's photos!  If that is the case, which I think it is, then the last photo I posted is wrong! Because I took measurements off of one of Tom's photos, which appears now to conflict with his other photos. This sure gets complicated.

So, hold your jets until this gets resolved. Shutter is not here to do anything. He's probably busy. This will get resolved in due course.

Years ago, Tom sent me a serie of photos of his money find GPS location. That location now appears to be in two different locations in the photos he sent - that is the question? Until this gets resolved - do and say NOTHING FOR A CHANGE!

In the meantime: these ARE! the photos on Tom's website which show his version of the money find location. That much is 1000% certain.

 
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 22, 2014, 06:20:04 PM
Based on my memory of Meyer Louie's and my visit to Tina Bar, the money location on your last picture should be moved about 50-75 yards south (to the bottom of the picture).  Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates gave a position that was just down the hill toward the water from the Fazio's dairy containment pit.  And that pit is just over the fence (north side) from the road that leads out from the Fazio's buildings to the "Tina Bar" sign.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 22, 2014, 07:34:20 PM
Georger, I removed one photo. I'm not sure if that is right, so I'll wait for your reply.

I also increased the photo uploads. you should be able to post up to 3 photo's at 192 KB's.....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 22, 2014, 08:07:28 PM
Holding my jets.  Saying nothing for a change.

Think I'll go for a walk.....

BTW:  JUst tried to get in touch with paul Neevel, the guy who interviewed Tina for the Eugene newspaper, which sounds like an alternative press kind of thing.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 22, 2014, 08:14:59 PM
The only way move photo's is to take them from where they are originating from. you just right click on the photo and save them to your computer. you really can't move the photo's, other than in a quote.

right click...save image as....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 22, 2014, 09:35:22 PM
ok
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 22, 2014, 09:37:40 PM
Just got an email from a Steve Elliott, a filmmaker in NYC, who says he wants to write a screenplay on McCoy. He and I will be meeting for beers at McSorleys in September when I get into town for my sister's wedding.

Updates to follow.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 22, 2014, 10:01:46 PM
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Based on my memory of Meyer Louie's and my visit to Tina Bar, the money location on your last picture should be moved about 50-75 yards south (to the bottom of the picture).  Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates gave a position that was just down the hill toward the water from the Fazio's dairy containment pit.  And that pit is just over the fence (north side) from the road that leads out from the Fazio's buildings to the "Tina Bar" sign.

The original "50-75 years" in the above has been changed to "50-75 yards".
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 22, 2014, 10:04:53 PM
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Based on my memory of Meyer Louie's and my visit to Tina Bar, the money location on your last picture should be moved about 50-75 yards south (to the bottom of the picture).  Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates gave a position that was just down the hill toward the water from the Fazio's dairy containment pit.  And that pit is just over the fence (north side) from the road that leads out from the Fazio's buildings to the "Tina Bar" sign.

The original "50-75 years" in the above has been changed to "50-75 yards".


I went back to your original post and added "yards"

I also added a 5 hr window for edits. I didn't realize it was set for 60 minutes...
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 22, 2014, 10:17:33 PM
Thanks.  I need to do better proofreading and maybe get some new glasses as well.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 22, 2014, 10:22:24 PM
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Thanks.  I need to do better proofreading and maybe get some new glasses as well.

I can stare at what I just typed and see nothing wrong until I post it, and right away I see the problems. never fails.... :(
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 23, 2014, 08:12:01 AM
Kaye is not sure of that, and his reason is the rubber bands. They were extremely fragile and turned to powder as soon as Ingram touched them, but they were still in place around the money.

Kaye said that rubber bands of that type will last less than three months in the water but that they could have been preserved if they were buried in sand. From that, he postulates that the cash reached Tena Bar much sooner than thought.

"The story that the money spent many, many years somewhere else and ended up on Tena Bar is probably wrong," Kaye said. "It ended up on Tena Bar much sooner, probably shortly after he jumped."

He does not rule out the possibility that the hijacker and parachutes fell directly into the Columbia and were soon swept into the Pacific Ocean.

"It tells you (the money) likely didn't come down 20 miles of the Washougal River," Kaye said. "Then it brings up the question of where did Cooper really jump. We have reason to believe the jump zone was farther south. If the money landed in the Columbia, that would be the easiest explanation for how it got to Tena Bar."

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 23, 2014, 02:45:43 PM
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Based on my memory of Meyer Louie's and my visit to Tina Bar, the money location on your last picture should be moved about 50-75 yards south (to the bottom of the picture).  Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates gave a position that was just down the hill toward the water from the Fazio's dairy containment pit.  And that pit is just over the fence (north side) from the road that leads out from the Fazio's buildings to the "Tina Bar" sign.

will get back to this when I have time - go with Tom's photos.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 23, 2014, 02:50:56 PM
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Georger, I removed one photo. I'm not sure if that is right, so I'll wait for your reply.

I also increased the photo uploads. you should be able to post up to 3 photo's at 192 KB's.....

You removed the right one - the easiest thing for me to do at some point is to post several graphics Tom sent - you will see the contradiction I missed. I tend to go with Tom's version (the correct Tom's version) vs. Snowman or Sluggo's version neither of who were there.

I am extremely busy right now and will hopfully get back to this. I dont even want to post what I think are Tom's coordinates .... maybe there are two versions of that in my files! Later ...

Edit:  Here is a set of coordinates I think came from Tom Kaye. I would use these until something better comes up.
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 26, 2014, 05:33:31 AM
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Just got an email from a Steve Elliott, a filmmaker in NYC, who says he wants to write a screenplay on McCoy. He and I will be meeting for beers at McSorleys in September when I get into town for my sister's wedding.

Updates to follow.

Richard McCoy's is one fascinating story. I hope it doesn't get me thrown in the dungeon for suggesting it, but IMO McCoy's story would make a better screenplay than would D.B. Cooper's.

Why? Firstly, McCoy's story is known pretty much from go to whoa. So there's no need for guess work in joining the dots. Secondly, how many offer such an amazing, yet tragic, story? War hero. Sunday school teacher. Skyjacker. Twice an escapee. Bank robber. Shot dead by the F.B.I. The McCoy story is one with the lot including the fries.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 26, 2014, 05:45:44 AM
I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 12:01:33 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 26, 2014, 02:24:40 PM
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Just got an email from a Steve Elliott, a filmmaker in NYC, who says he wants to write a screenplay on McCoy. He and I will be meeting for beers at McSorleys in September when I get into town for my sister's wedding.

Updates to follow.
   
Richard McCoy's is one fascinating story. I hope it doesn't get me thrown in the dungeon for suggesting it, but IMO McCoy's story would make a better screenplay than would D.B. Cooper's.

Why? Firstly, McCoy's story is known pretty much from go to whoa. So there's no need for guess work in joining the dots. Secondly, how many offer such an amazing, yet tragic, story? War hero. Sunday school teacher. Skyjacker. Twice an escapee. Bank robber. Shot dead by the F.B.I. The McCoy story is one with the lot including the fries.

Without a doubt, McCoy's story is compelling. I always wondered if Cooper has stolen the idea for a 727 hijacking from McCoy, and conducted it first! McCoy was quite a talker (blabber-mouth). Maybe Cooper was someone in the background listening to McCoy talking? Several Agents thought McCoy was Cooper. Lastly, many people believe Weber's story has its roots in the fact Jo and Duane lived at Virginia Beach where McCoy was killed and Jo admits they actually used to drive by McCoy's house! Jo claims she didn't know what Duane was talking about when he would drive her by McCoy's house and blabber about "hijackings" ? That sounds a little far-fetched. Agent Calme says McCoy refused to talk about the Cooper hijacking? Agent Carr thought McCoy was the 'model' for what a real hijacker 'would do' ?       
Richard McCoy's is one fascinating story. I hope it doesn't get me thrown in the dungeon for suggesting it, but IMO McCoy's story would make a better screenplay than would D.B. Cooper's.

Why? Firstly, McCoy's story is known pretty much from go to whoa. So there's no need for guess work in joining the dots. Secondly, how many offer such an amazing, yet tragic, story? War hero. Sunday school teacher. Skyjacker. Twice an escapee. Bank robber. Shot dead by the F.B.I. The McCoy story is one with the lot including the fries.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 26, 2014, 02:38:47 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

Tom thinks Palmer got the strata wrong. If that's true then he got the 'erosion' history wrong at Tina Bar too. Tom thinks the money was at Tina Bar earlier than Palmer's strata allows, for a 1979-80 wash in. But, Tom does not explain what the factors are which makes him think the money was at Tina Bar from say late 1971-1972? Is it something in the money he sees? The amount and facts about the deterioration of the bills? 

Or, Palmer got the strata right, and the money could still have finally flowed in from fairly close by. Palmer's strata
does not eliminate the possibility the money was near to Tina Bar for a long time prior to it winding up at Tina Bar.

Some scenario connects the flight path, the bailout, and the money at Tina Bar. Frankly, I don't think this is rocket science. That is the premise R99 is operating on and I think R99 is fundamentally 100% correct.



   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 02:48:06 PM
The "Flight From Justice" is suppose to be about Cooper, but 98% of it seems to be about McCoy. I also follow what Carr says about McCoy. he was almost a co-pilot asking for updates frequently. we obviously know McCoy was experienced above average. he also pin pointed his DZ with accuracy. can we say the two are similar? Cooper had a bomb. McCoy had an empty gun, and a fake grenade. he also jumped from a higher altitude. Cooper just said fly to Mexico, giving no specific directions.

It appears Cooper wanted to jump early. this tells me he had no real plan other than getting out of the plane quickly, but it appears the stairs fouled up his first attempt of escape. McCoy had his plan well in advance prior to getting on the plane. can we say that about Cooper? perhaps if he did indeed want out just prior to taking off. personally the only thing in common I see is the plane.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 02:56:00 PM
"Some scenario connects the flight path, the bailout, and the money at Tina Bar. Frankly, I don't think this is rocket science. That is the premise R99 is operating on and I think R99 is fundamentally 100% correct."

With my simulator basically showing the path could be flown in the way it's presented. are we going on the assumption of the plane being further west than the map shows. I agree the timing will not change much if the path is moved further west. proving it is another thing. I agree with a lot of Robert99 theories. how do we prove this? in the same sense I believe the timing could be off, and Cooper jumped somewhere near the Columbia possibly entering it, or getting away without the money and only his life. these are the problems that halt everything IMO.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
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"Some scenario connects the flight path, the bailout, and the money at Tina Bar. Frankly, I don't think this is rocket science. That is the premise R99 is operating on and I think R99 is fundamentally 100% correct."

With my simulator basically showing the path could be flown in the way it's presented. are we going on the assumption of the plane being further west than the map shows. I agree the timing will not change much if the path is moved further west. proving it is another thing. I agree with a lot of Robert99 theories. how do we prove this? in the same sense I believe the timing could be off, and Cooper jumped somewhere near the Columbia possibly entering it, or getting away without the money and only his life. these are the problems that halt everything IMO.

First, thanks to Georger for those remarks.  It should be remembered that Georger and I spent about a year looking over and discussing some beautiful photographs that he generated for the Tina Bar area.  Those photographs could be and were greatly enlarged and they continue to influence my thinking about Tina Bar.

Shutter is correct that the times between the two flight paths is very small.  Less than two minutes if I remember correctly.

Maybe the stars will eventually align and we will have some more accurate information.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 26, 2014, 04:43:37 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?

Rataczak, with the assistance of Scott, and the F.B.I on the radio, were no doubt conducting a chess match with Cooper from different ends of the aircraft, and I'm sure they weren't looking for a nice soft landing spot for him.

Most maps I've seen have the flight path running south, virtually parallel to the Route 5 roadway. It appears Route 5 is about 5 miles across from Tena Bar, and the flight path about another 6 miles across again - but that down near the Columbia River Rataczak vears to his right. But the original jump point was thought to be right up near Green Mountain / Bald Mountain, was it not?

What I'm getting at in all that is it doesn't sound like Flight 305 ever got close enough to Tena Bar for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto it, or even close to it.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 05:06:24 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?

Rataczak, with the assistance of Scott, and the F.B.I on the radio, were no doubt conducting a chess match with Cooper from different ends of the aircraft, and I'm sure they weren't looking for a nice soft landing spot for him.

Most maps I've seen have the flight path running south, virtually parallel to the Route 5 roadway. It appears Route 5 is about 5 miles across from Tena Bar, and the flight path about another 6 miles across again - but that down near the Columbia River Rataczak vears to his right. But the original jump point was thought to be right up near Green Mountain / Bald Mountain, was it not?

What I'm getting at in all that is it doesn't sound like Flight 305 ever got close enough to Tena Bar for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto it, or even close to it.

Those are some of the problems for sure. I don't think the drop has to be right on top of Tena Bar. many have believed the money was close by protected over the years, and released once the bag weathered. we have many theories and options here. pin pointing the right one seems to be the hardest. no positive proof of the finding seems to exist if not mistaken. once you fly around the area, you begin to take a different perspective on possible options. I certainly don't have an answer, but I don't believe the money was planted. it doesn't serve a purpose. it doesn't throw the trail off. I just don't know.... 8)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2014, 05:13:18 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?

Rataczak, with the assistance of Scott, and the F.B.I on the radio, were no doubt conducting a chess match with Cooper from different ends of the aircraft, and I'm sure they weren't looking for a nice soft landing spot for him.

Most maps I've seen have the flight path running south, virtually parallel to the Route 5 roadway. It appears Route 5 is about 5 miles across from Tena Bar, and the flight path about another 6 miles across again - but that down near the Columbia River Rataczak vears to his right. But the original jump point was thought to be right up near Green Mountain / Bald Mountain, was it not?

What I'm getting at in all that is it doesn't sound like Flight 305 ever got close enough to Tena Bar for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto it, or even close to it.

Take a look at the radio transcript for the time the airliner was in the area controlled by the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center.  There are 19 (repeat 19) redactions indicated in that transcript.  Ever single thing in that transcript that would help to accurately determine the airliner' position at a given time has been removed.  Until those redactions have been made available, the airliner's flight path is debatable.

These transcripts are available online at a number of sites, including Sluggo's web page.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 05:25:59 PM
Let me see if this works. this is from Sluggo's website....


http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf

Robert99, does he have both transcripts on his site? I don't see the other....

I found them....

http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Logs%2006-20-2008R.pdf
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2014, 06:10:59 PM
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Let me see if this works. this is from Sluggo's website....


http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/dbcooper_transcripts.pdf

Robert99, does he have both transcripts on his site? I don't see the other....

I found them....

http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Logs%2006-20-2008R.pdf

The first link above is for the 99 pages of transcripts that apparently originated from the Seattle PI newspaper.  The second link is for the 17 pages of "FBI Notes".

The 99 pages includes all the transcripts for both the Seattle ATC and the Oakland ATC.

I would recommend that everyone download these.  And remember to keep in mind which transcripts relate to communications over the Air Traffic Control system and which come from both the telephone voice link and the teletypewriter link with ARINC.  The distinction is VERY important.

Robert99


If you don't mind I'm going to copy/paste this to the thread where I made the transcripts available. I always get the two mixed up....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 26, 2014, 06:18:18 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?

Rataczak, with the assistance of Scott, and the F.B.I on the radio, were no doubt conducting a chess match with Cooper from different ends of the aircraft, and I'm sure they weren't looking for a nice soft landing spot for him.

Most maps I've seen have the flight path running south, virtually parallel to the Route 5 roadway. It appears Route 5 is about 5 miles across from Tena Bar, and the flight path about another 6 miles across again - but that down near the Columbia River Rataczak vears to his right. But the original jump point was thought to be right up near Green Mountain / Bald Mountain, was it not?

What I'm getting at in all that is it doesn't sound like Flight 305 ever got close enough to Tena Bar for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto it, or even close to it.

Take a look at the radio transcript for the time the airliner was in the area controlled by the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center.  There are 19 (repeat 19) redactions indicated in that transcript.  Ever single thing in that transcript that would help to accurately determine the airliner' position at a given time has been removed.  Until those redactions have been made available, the airliner's flight path is debatable.

These transcripts are available online at a number of sites, including Sluggo's web page.

Robert99

Why all the redactions/edits? Is this something the F.B.I. did?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2014, 07:24:15 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?

Rataczak, with the assistance of Scott, and the F.B.I on the radio, were no doubt conducting a chess match with Cooper from different ends of the aircraft, and I'm sure they weren't looking for a nice soft landing spot for him.

Most maps I've seen have the flight path running south, virtually parallel to the Route 5 roadway. It appears Route 5 is about 5 miles across from Tena Bar, and the flight path about another 6 miles across again - but that down near the Columbia River Rataczak vears to his right. But the original jump point was thought to be right up near Green Mountain / Bald Mountain, was it not?

What I'm getting at in all that is it doesn't sound like Flight 305 ever got close enough to Tena Bar for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto it, or even close to it.

Take a look at the radio transcript for the time the airliner was in the area controlled by the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center.  There are 19 (repeat 19) redactions indicated in that transcript.  Ever single thing in that transcript that would help to accurately determine the airliner' position at a given time has been removed.  Until those redactions have been made available, the airliner's flight path is debatable.

These transcripts are available online at a number of sites, including Sluggo's web page.

Robert99

Why all the redactions/edits? Is this something the F.B.I. did?

The FBI did the redactions and don't want to release the un-redacted Seattle ATC transcripts.  Feel free to draw your own conclusions as to why the FBI wants to set on those redactions.  And they are strictly ATC communications.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 26, 2014, 08:15:27 PM
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I've never understood why the F.B.I. reason the money find at Tena Bar supports what appears to be their long held theory that D.B. Cooper didn't survive his jump.

From what I've read there's just no way possible Bill Rataczak swerved far enough off course for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto Tena Bar, and all the explanations for it having got there "naturally" seem to be far fetched.

For what it's worth I see the most logical ways for the money to have got to Tena bar as:

1/ Somebody put it there. Whether it was Cooper, an accomplice or someone who just plain found the money elsewhere.

2/ Dr. Leonard Palmer got it wrong regarding the layers in the sand, and a dredge actually deposited the money from somewhere else far closer to the Flight 305 flight path onto Tena Bar.

keep in mind this is if the flight path is correct. we must assume that everything said is correct. we have found out many time this is not always true. lots of different theories, and discussions about the money. I'm currently working on the flight path with a simulator. are you aware the jump time is now considered further south which puts him closer to the columbia, and other surrounding waters?

Rataczak, with the assistance of Scott, and the F.B.I on the radio, were no doubt conducting a chess match with Cooper from different ends of the aircraft, and I'm sure they weren't looking for a nice soft landing spot for him.

Most maps I've seen have the flight path running south, virtually parallel to the Route 5 roadway. It appears Route 5 is about 5 miles across from Tena Bar, and the flight path about another 6 miles across again - but that down near the Columbia River Rataczak vears to his right. But the original jump point was thought to be right up near Green Mountain / Bald Mountain, was it not?

What I'm getting at in all that is it doesn't sound like Flight 305 ever got close enough to Tena Bar for Cooper to have dropped the money directly onto it, or even close to it.

Those are some of the problems for sure. I don't think the drop has to be right on top of Tena Bar. many have believed the money was close by protected over the years, and released once the bag weathered. we have many theories and options here. pin pointing the right one seems to be the hardest. no positive proof of the finding seems to exist if not mistaken. once you fly around the area, you begin to take a different perspective on possible options. I certainly don't have an answer, but I don't believe the money was planted. it doesn't serve a purpose. it doesn't throw the trail off. I just don't know.... 8)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM

There is indeed plenty of water down there. Personally, and take into account I've never done a jump in my life, I'd be happier with a chute I could steer. Particularly when all that water is darn cold in late November.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 08:27:24 PM
"There is indeed plenty of water down there. Personally, and take into account I've never done a jump in my life, I'd be happier with a chute I could steer. Particularly when all that water is darn cold in late November."

I did a bungee jump from 270 feet for a radio station. does that count  ;D

The video shows a lot of water around there area more likely he jumped from, perhaps even further south. back at the original jump area the odds were drastically lower. if the flight path is off just a couple miles, it's very possible to explain the money. I'm not stating anything as fact, but it certainly opens doors doesn't it? times, and technology were a lot different than today, but then again planes are vanishing without a trace even with advanced technology. human error is also another factor to look at while they were calculating things. then you have missing parts on the transcripts. it's a WTF is really going on here moment.  8)


I also believe if Cooper wanted to be known to make it the best way to do that is what others have done in the past. that's sending something to the FBI taunting them. why put it in an area where it could have never been found, or taken, and never seen again? a whole different story surrounds what happened once the money was found. it wasn't just turned over to the FBI.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 26, 2014, 10:50:02 PM
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"There is indeed plenty of water down there. Personally, and take into account I've never done a jump in my life, I'd be happier with a chute I could steer. Particularly when all that water is darn cold in late November."

I did a bungee jump from 270 feet for a radio station. does that count  ;D

The video shows a lot of water around there area more likely he jumped from, perhaps even further south. back at the original jump area the odds were drastically lower. if the flight path is off just a couple miles, it's very possible to explain the money. I'm not stating anything as fact, but it certainly opens doors doesn't it? times, and technology were a lot different than today, but then again planes are vanishing without a trace even with advanced technology. human error is also another factor to look at while they were calculating things. then you have missing parts on the transcripts. it's a WTF is really going on here moment.  8)

I also believe if Cooper wanted to be known to make it the best way to do that is what others have done in the past. that's sending something to the FBI taunting them. why put it in an area where it could have never been found, or taken, and never seen again? a whole different story surrounds what happened once the money was found. it wasn't just turned over to the FBI.

When I first heard about this case my initial thought was Cooper had dropped the money bag during his descent and the money had spilled loose from the bag on its way to the ground. It makes a certain amount of sense when you consider how he jerry-rigged things together with the strings from the surplus parachute - far from ideal.

But the mainstream view has been that Cooper didn't jump anywhere near Tena Bar, and even if he had, how could the 3 bundles of money have been buried so close to each other? Not to mention the absence of Cooper himself, his parachute, briefcase and the lion-share of the remainder of the loot.

The Ingrams said once they'd found the money they kept digging for more - as you would - so it makes me a little wary of the accuracy of their account of exactly where they found the money and how it was arranged. I realize Brian was included in some of the follow-up work decades later, but how much would an 8 year old remember?

I'm aware the Ingrams tried to salvage the money with an obvious view for personal use.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2014, 11:10:47 PM
The money find doesn't have to have Cooper around that area. the money packed together could have been from being in the bag for extended amounts of time. the bills were in the order they were given. who says Cooper did die. I thinks it's highly possible, but it's also possible the money separated from him. a flood happened not to far behind the money being found. as mentioned before it doesn't make sense to put the money in a spot such Tena Bar in my opinion. I just don't see the logic in planting it on the beach. why not really screw with the FBI and plant it somewhere around Reno?

(http://albertjackchat.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/db-cooper.jpg)


Brian is a member here, but has only made one post at the start of this forum back in February. I would love to hear more from him. I'm going to try and reach him to see if he will continue to comment about what he believes. I was pretty honored to see he joined. it's my understanding he has never done that prior to registering here. I would also like to get Tom Kaye back in the loop.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 27, 2014, 01:04:29 AM
I've run with the idea Cooper probably didn't make it for some time now.

But when you take into account all the other people who attempted similar hijack jumps survived - at least as far as I know - why should Cooper have been the only one not to?

I believe one of the copycats, a guy called McNally, had never jumped before in his life and still managed to land his jump in one piece.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 27, 2014, 02:47:20 AM
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"There is indeed plenty of water down there. Personally, and take into account I've never done a jump in my life, I'd be happier with a chute I could steer. Particularly when all that water is darn cold in late November."

I did a bungee jump from 270 feet for a radio station. does that count  ;D

The video shows a lot of water around there area more likely he jumped from, perhaps even further south. back at the original jump area the odds were drastically lower. if the flight path is off just a couple miles, it's very possible to explain the money. I'm not stating anything as fact, but it certainly opens doors doesn't it? times, and technology were a lot different than today, but then again planes are vanishing without a trace even with advanced technology. human error is also another factor to look at while they were calculating things. then you have missing parts on the transcripts. it's a WTF is really going on here moment.  8)

I also believe if Cooper wanted to be known to make it the best way to do that is what others have done in the past. that's sending something to the FBI taunting them. why put it in an area where it could have never been found, or taken, and never seen again? a whole different story surrounds what happened once the money was found. it wasn't just turned over to the FBI.

When I first heard about this case my initial thought was Cooper had dropped the money bag during his descent and the money had spilled loose from the bag on its way to the ground. It makes a certain amount of sense when you consider how he jerry-rigged things together with the strings from the surplus parachute - far from ideal.

But the mainstream view has been that Cooper didn't jump anywhere near Tena Bar, and even if he had, how could the 3 bundles of money have been buried so close to each other? Not to mention the absence of Cooper himself, his parachute, briefcase and the lion-share of the remainder of the loot.

The Ingrams said once they'd found the money they kept digging for more - as you would - so it makes me a little wary of the accuracy of their account of exactly where they found the money and how it was arranged. I realize Brian was included in some of the follow-up work decades later, but how much would an 8 year old remember?

I'm aware the Ingrams tried to salvage the money with an obvious view for personal use.

Several comments -

A lot of debris (from all over) flows up onto Tina Bar. Some of it is aggregated together having been at other locations then freed, and flows on to be deposited elsewhere at places like Tina Bar. This debris is further distributed on (and off Tina Bar) once it has arrived, not just by lateral flow events but by tidal actions. I believe a slight pressure differential between the higher pressure zone of the main channel vrs the wider area along and above Catapillar island, favors the gather of debris on the righthand side of the channel which then can be swept up onto the bar, during high water events. See a Google map of the area which includes Tina Bar.

Second, there was a good discussion of the Ingram Tina Bar money find at DZ. See also pages 126/127 of the current thread in which Snowmman weighed in on the money question.

Third, I am still not convinced the money at Tina Bar was not related to the dredging events in 1974. The money bundles were in fact found just downstream of the north-most dredging pile which had been spread out. That could be a coincidence or it could be something stronger. Most people argue that the bundles could not have passed through the dredging pipe auger without being shredded (into fine pieces). Other people argue differently and cite specific examples. I am still not convinced there isn't an association because of the close proximity of the find to the north dredging pile which was spread out and then eroded further during high water events between 1974-80.
       
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 27, 2014, 07:30:00 PM
Have you seen this article 18c? a lot of people write this one off as well, but it throws a big wrench into the whole story.....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 27, 2014, 11:54:28 PM
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Have you seen this article 18c? a lot of people write this one off as well, but it throws a big wrench into the whole story.....

Hominid, R99, and I are well acquainted with Dawson. I posted on Dawson at DZ years ago. Snowmman was the first to find that article, and posted about it on DZ. Personnel at McChord worked with the FBI and NWA to conduct the sled test following the hijacking. These were people separate from Dawson's unit. I think it's safe to say Hominid does not buy Dawson's account. I had extensive conversations with Ferguson and several of Dawson's personal friends but they were not able to expand on Dawson's account. It was pure chance that caused Adele to write her article: she is a long time political-legislative reporter in Washington, Dawson was in the Legislature, Adele met with Dawson to explore legislative matters and by chance his former history at McChord came up which lead to him explaining his involvement in the Cooper case on the evening of 11-24-71 at McChord.

I was never able to find anyone from Dawson's unit to talk to, who might be able to expound on Dawson's account.
 
[edit] For those who remember, Farflung showed up at DZ one day and out of the blue begins talking about 'construction on Hayden Island'  as a possible source of the money at Tina Bar. I almost chocked! I was sure in the next sentence he was going to mention Dawson. But he didn't! I came to DZ for a week after that expecting him to name Dawson as the source of his idea - he never mentioned Dawson. Several people asked Farf who or what the source of his idea was ... he just said he had been searching .... never mentioned Dawson. Of course we all surmise Farf had an extensive military (Air Force) history. But he never mentioned Dawson!  :) :) Farf's vagueness has bugged me to this day. Hey Farf! Didn't your idea come from Dawson? Tell us about your association with Dawson, if there was one?  (Some things remain an eternal mystery).   ;) ;) ;)   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find: Snowmman comments 2008-09
Post by: georger on August 28, 2014, 06:25:07 PM
Snowmman made some worthwhile comments on the money find. Here's one. He asks some specific questions, some of which have been answered, some not answered. It's food for thought, as follows:

snowmman
Jun 30, 2008, 1:55 PM
Post #3143 of 55165 (38393 views)
    Ingram Money Find [In reply to]
__________________________
1) There is no data that suggests any method of money arrival at Tina Bar is more likely than another. Ckret's talk about natural causes for the movement (water) being more likely is based on no data. He's just being a bad FBI agent. It's just b.s. There are 100 ways the money could have arrived there. All are equally likely based on the data we have.

2) The full data for the circumstances of the Ingram find has not been released. The full list of relatives and children present is not available. The story told by 5-year old Denise of finding the money first has been dismissed for unknown (to us) reasons.

3) There is a recurring myth that only two of the bundles had rubber bands, and that the third had none and was thinner. Be nice to confirm/deny that.

In short, there's nothing to be gained in discussing the money find as we currently know it, unless we have/get more data.

Sure you can explore all you want about water levels, but it will prove nothing. Even with the exact right water movements, the money could have arrived there thru alternate means.

One analysis that's needed is a accurate min-max lifetime of the money at Tena Bar. Also an analysis of what caused the purple colorations.

I'm scratching my head at why people want to talk about the money find more? Isn't it just a waste of time? Or am I missing something?

If you assume Cooper augered in, then you might use the money find plus hydrology to create a search area. If you believe Cooper survived, then you have to believe the money bag came off, to start wondering about hydrology theories. Either way there's no supporting data. Ckret can't prove the money bag came off, or that Cooper augered in.

On another note, were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?


Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on August 28, 2014, 08:14:43 PM
^ Very informative and hard to argue against.

One question: What does he mean by were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?

Analyzed in what way?

Verified??
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on August 28, 2014, 09:07:55 PM
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^ Very informative and hard to argue against.

One question: What does he mean by were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?

Analyzed in what way?

Verified??


My guess would be to check the records and see if Cooper possibly called someone. I could only imagine how many phone lines/pay phones were in the airport in 1971
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on August 29, 2014, 12:02:58 AM
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^ Very informative and hard to argue against.

One question: What does he mean by were the pay phone records at PDX airport from the afternoon of 11/24/71 analyzed?

Analyzed in what way?

Verified??


My guess would be to check the records and see if Cooper possibly called someone. I could only imagine how many phone lines/pay phones were in the airport in 1971

Funny! Yes that's what Snow means. Snow had the habit of hanging brand new ideas-topics on to his posts, midway, at end, wherever. He means 'did they search the phone records of that pay phone at Seatac' ............. while also conducting a repeat 727 test ...................... while recovering money from T_Bar .......................... while dancing to
the HokeyPokey!

They all fit together .... in the same post.     That's Snowmman.   ;)

There are more Snowmman posts about the money find - I will post a few more along the way.

Oh course there were probably a whole bunch of payphones at that airport. Did they run the records for them all?
We can surmise Snowmman ran a search or two and found nothing otherwise he would have said so.

     
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Parrotheadvol on August 29, 2014, 12:48:36 AM
We need Snowmman on this forum!
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on September 08, 2014, 07:32:32 PM
Georger wrote:


Tom and others focus on the 'clay lump and sand' layer Palmer identified as being the dredge spoils from 1974. Above that layer, Palmer identifies a "cross bedded sand" layer which in the Palmer analysis may be the actual baseline against which he assigned all other strata. Each layer found represents a segment of time. The cross bedded layer would presumably represent all deposits, wave action, and erosion between Sept 1974 and the start of the 'upper active layer' which may start in 1978, after the severe drought of 1977. If Palmer is correct then the "cross bedded layer" can only correspond to water events between Sept 1974 and say Sept 1978. So the question arises: does the Columbia river height data at the Vancouver station between Sept 1974 and Sept 1978 support multiple cross-bedded deposition events (at Tina Bar) between Sept '74 and Sept '78, and generally I think it does. Palmer had access to those same Vancouver station records I do today. Those water event records seem to confirm the cross-bedded layer consisting of multiple high water events, which Palmer identified as layer "B". On that basis Palmer would be fully justified in claiming that the "clay lump and sand" layer "C" found below the cross bedded sands layer "B", was in fact the dredging sediments from 1974. Then on top of Layer "B" Palmer places the "upper active" layer representing deposits from say Sept 1978 to the current time February of 1980 - and it is in this topmost layer "A" the Ingram money was recovered.

Kaye arrives in 2008 and finds a severely eroded beachfront at Tina bar, Kay can see a clay layer exposed in the erosion cut, and Kaye believes that clay layer he is seeing predates 1974. Tom believes this is the very layer Palmer was looking at in 1980 and called the 'dredge spoils' layer, but it was not. Tom may be saying that the dredge spoils layer had all but washed away by 1980 and so there was no dredging layer to be found, and Palmer misidentified a deeper (pre 1971?) layer as being the 1974 dredge spoils 'clay and sand'. Quite frankly, it is difficult for me to believe Palmer would make such a basic mistake. Palmer was an expert in this area. 

Tom would then assign Palmer's cross bedded sands layer 'C' as consisting of (a) remnants of the dredging spoils  deposited in 1974 and post 1974-Sept 1978 sands laid down by multiple water events between the end of 1974 to say early 1978.

All of this matters because the dating of the layer in which Ingram money was found is crucial. The water records must agree with the strata found, in any event. And the Vancouver station records I have generally support the multiple water-deposition events which Palmer's cross bedded sands layer 'B' implies.

I can easily see how Palmer would have identified anything below layer 'B', especially anything containing clay, as the 1974 bottom dredging sediments which consists of both clay and coarse sand. But, the baseline is set in Palmer's mind once he see's the cross bedded layer 'B'. Stratum 'B' represents a definable period of time against which actual nearby river station records can be checked. Please recall, it was not just Palmer out a Tina Bar alone. He had backup and co-researchers working with him, some of who are named on Kaye's site. (a professional hydrologist for one).
So Palmer is not operating in complete darkness here.

Do water-weather records support the idea that all of the 1974 dredging spoils placed at Tina Bar had withered down to a non-existent thin layer by the time the cross bedded layer 'B' starts to be assembled at Tina Bar? No. There is nothing to support that contention. The best one could do is contend that cross bedded layer 'B' represents a portion of dredging spoils and post-dredging sands laid down between 8-74 and say 9-78 when we are sure the next cycle of deposition with the flood of 1978 begins (and deposits the upper active layer Palmer found).

This exercise illustrates the issues involved. But, water and weather records must correspond and account for whatever beach strata are found, because beach's just don't build themselves!. Beaches are a temporal story of deposition, erosion, water and wave action, et cetera. Beaches are a clock.


Shutter replies:

1) would a core sample be of any value now?

2) Do you believe the money was protected for a period prior to "hitting the beach" (In the bag)

3) How many people thought the plane was over the Woodland area? (has meaning to money find)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on September 08, 2014, 07:43:35 PM
It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on September 08, 2014, 10:12:56 PM
Historical Crests for Columbia River at Vancouver

(P): Preliminary values subject to further review.

(1) 31.00 ft on 06/13/1948
(2) 30.80 ft on 06/01/1948
(3) 27.70 ft on 12/25/1964
(4) 27.60 ft on 06/04/1956
(5) 27.20 ft on 02/09/1996
(6) 26.30 ft on 06/19/1933
(7) 26.20 ft on 05/31/1928
(8) 26.00 ft on 06/12/1921
(9) 25.90 ft on 06/26/1950
(10) 25.60 ft on 06/16/1903
(11) 25.44 ft on 01/19/1965
(12) 25.30 ft on 06/22/1917
(13) 25.30 ft on 06/03/1916
(14) 25.20 ft on 06/13/1913
(15) 22.55 ft on 01/03/1997
(16) 21.50 ft on 06/12/1972
(17) 21.10 ft on 06/22/1974
(18) 19.54 ft on 01/24/1970
(19) 19.03 ft on 06/05/1997
(20) 18.50 ft on 12/01/1995
(21) 17.50 ft on 04/27/1996
(22) 17.43 ft on 06/02/2011
(23) 16.80 ft on 02/02/1997
(24) 15.00 ft on 12/30/1998
(25) 12.32 ft on 11/26/1999

Lows

(1) -1.20 ft on 01/07/1937
(2) -1.10 ft on 11/08/1936
(3) -0.80 ft on 07/30/1978
(4) -0.80 ft on 07/24/1989
(5) -0.74 ft on 07/14/2001
(6) -0.70 ft on 09/09/1973
(7) -0.70 ft on 11/09/1952
(8) -0.66 ft on 09/21/2003
(9) -0.52 ft on 09/20/2003
(10) -0.46 ft on 10/10/2001
(11) -0.43 ft on 09/26/2005
(12) -0.42 ft on 09/06/2010
(13) -0.42 ft on 11/04/2007
(14) -0.40 ft on 09/08/2001
(15) -0.37 ft on 09/17/2006
(16) -0.34 ft on 10/30/2006
(17) -0.32 ft on 09/21/2007
(18) -0.28 ft on 09/23/2008
(19) -0.28 ft on 10/12/2001
(20) -0.27 ft on 09/28/2005
(21) -0.22 ft on 10/24/2001
(22) -0.18 ft on 10/01/2006
(23) -0.16 ft on 10/02/2002
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 08, 2014, 10:54:52 PM
Washougal Flight Path - and hence a wash down from the Washougal River.

Here's the list that I know of:

1. True Believers:

Himms and Jerry Thomas.

2. Guilt by Association:

Bill Rataczak.  Ralph says that Rataczak told him he was flying over the Washougal when Cooper jumped.

3. Maybes:

Larry Carr sure talked a lot about a Washougal float-down, but he also talked about a lot of other things, such as money float-up from the Lewis via the Propeller Theory scenario, and the last I heard about Larry's perspective when he was leaving Seattle is from Galen and G says that Larry felt Cooper jumped out over Battleground in the V-23 airway.

4. I don't knows.

Me. Rataczak told me he didn't know where 305 was when Cooper jumped.  "It remains an enigma," he said. But Rataczak mind-set was one of confrontation, so flying over the Washougal wilderness makes sense.

The whole question of inter-connectedness of the flight path, jump site, and wash-up at Tina Bar, also includes a getaway plan. The whole notion of how Cooper got away is marginalized, but is critical to the discussion.

Hence, I believe that Cooper had a flexible and mobile ground team. Maybe one guy, or four as Jake suggests.  Maybe Richard McCoy was part of it. Maybe even Duane.

Maybe Cooper got away that night or waited a day or so. I suspect that he got away that night. That also means that he was able to somehow communicate with his ground team. I think it's important to think SOG Team, and not a solo criminal, not a "schlub" as GG is currently describing DB Cooper, or a two-bit "Rotten, Sleazy Crook" as Himmelsbach has so famously declared.

Billy Waugh thinks it was a SOG team, and I'm with Billy.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on September 08, 2014, 11:26:04 PM
I believe Carr and Sluggo think he jumped over the Orchid area past Battle. the pressure bump occurred 5-10 minutes after last contact. I have read on other sites (don't remember) about people claiming they heard the plane over the Woodland area. this puts the plane further west, and closer to the Columbia via Tina B. then you have people claiming the first indication of stair movement (oscillation) was at 8:05?

It's funny, when you move the path to the opposite side of V-23 some things start to line up. people claiming the plane flew over Woodland, the path now actually goes around Portland, and lines up the the red X's/crosshair's. could all be a co-wink-E- Dink though.... 8) if the timing is off, he could of landed somewhere around the Columbia, or just past it......lots of water around, and places to splash, or the popular money came off of Cooper and stayed in the bag for years.....just things rolling around thought wise.

Still seems the odds would be low for a "ground crew" especially if evidence shows Cooper wanting out soon after takeoff?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 08, 2014, 11:29:58 PM
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Georger wrote:


Tom and others focus on the 'clay lump and sand' layer Palmer identified as being the dredge spoils from 1974. Above that layer, Palmer identifies a "cross bedded sand" layer which in the Palmer analysis may be the actual baseline against which he assigned all other strata. Each layer found represents a segment of time. The cross bedded layer would presumably represent all deposits, wave action, and erosion between Sept 1974 and the start of the 'upper active layer' which may start in 1978, after the severe drought of 1977. If Palmer is correct then the "cross bedded layer" can only correspond to water events between Sept 1974 and say Sept 1978. So the question arises: does the Columbia river height data at the Vancouver station between Sept 1974 and Sept 1978 support multiple cross-bedded deposition events (at Tina Bar) between Sept '74 and Sept '78, and generally I think it does. Palmer had access to those same Vancouver station records I do today. Those water event records seem to confirm the cross-bedded layer consisting of multiple high water events, which Palmer identified as layer "B". On that basis Palmer would be fully justified in claiming that the "clay lump and sand" layer "C" found below the cross bedded sands layer "B", was in fact the dredging sediments from 1974. Then on top of Layer "B" Palmer places the "upper active" layer representing deposits from say Sept 1978 to the current time February of 1980 - and it is in this topmost layer "A" the Ingram money was recovered.

Kaye arrives in 2008 and finds a severely eroded beachfront at Tina bar, Kay can see a clay layer exposed in the erosion cut, and Kaye believes that clay layer he is seeing predates 1974. Tom believes this is the very layer Palmer was looking at in 1980 and called the 'dredge spoils' layer, but it was not. Tom may be saying that the dredge spoils layer had all but washed away by 1980 and so there was no dredging layer to be found, and Palmer misidentified a deeper (pre 1971?) layer as being the 1974 dredge spoils 'clay and sand'. Quite frankly, it is difficult for me to believe Palmer would make such a basic mistake. Palmer was an expert in this area. 

Tom would then assign Palmer's cross bedded sands layer 'C' as consisting of (a) remnants of the dredging spoils  deposited in 1974 and post 1974-Sept 1978 sands laid down by multiple water events between the end of 1974 to say early 1978.

All of this matters because the dating of the layer in which Ingram money was found is crucial. The water records must agree with the strata found, in any event. And the Vancouver station records I have generally support the multiple water-deposition events which Palmer's cross bedded sands layer 'B' implies.

I can easily see how Palmer would have identified anything below layer 'B', especially anything containing clay, as the 1974 bottom dredging sediments which consists of both clay and coarse sand. But, the baseline is set in Palmer's mind once he see's the cross bedded layer 'B'. Stratum 'B' represents a definable period of time against which actual nearby river station records can be checked. Please recall, it was not just Palmer out a Tina Bar alone. He had backup and co-researchers working with him, some of who are named on Kaye's site. (a professional hydrologist for one).
So Palmer is not operating in complete darkness here.

Do water-weather records support the idea that all of the 1974 dredging spoils placed at Tina Bar had withered down to a non-existent thin layer by the time the cross bedded layer 'B' starts to be assembled at Tina Bar? No. There is nothing to support that contention. The best one could do is contend that cross bedded layer 'B' represents a portion of dredging spoils and post-dredging sands laid down between 8-74 and say 9-78 when we are sure the next cycle of deposition with the flood of 1978 begins (and deposits the upper active layer Palmer found).

This exercise illustrates the issues involved. But, water and weather records must correspond and account for whatever beach strata are found, because beach's just don't build themselves!. Beaches are a temporal story of deposition, erosion, water and wave action, et cetera. Beaches are a clock.


Shutter replies:

1) would a core sample be of any value now?

2) Do you believe the money was protected for a period prior to "hitting the beach" (In the bag)

3) How many people thought the plane was over the Woodland area? (has meaning to money find)

Core samples always have value. It would be interesting to compare them to Palmer's profile. Here's the kicker -

If Palmer was alive he would say "they are of no value whatever - I knew/know what I'm doing!'

And Tom Kaye would reply: "they are of no value whatever - I knew/know what I'm doing!'

 :)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 08, 2014, 11:39:41 PM
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Washougal Flight Path - and hence a wash down from the Washougal River.

Here's the list that I know of:

1. True Believers:

Himms and Jerry Thomas.

2. Guilt by Association:

Bill Rataczak.  Ralph says that Rataczak told him he was flying over the Washougal when Cooper jumped.

3. Maybes:

Larry Carr sure talked a lot about a Washougal float-down, but he also talked about a lot of other things, such as money float-up from the Lewis via the Propeller Theory scenario, and the last I heard about Larry's perspective when he was leaving Seattle is from Galen and G says that Larry felt Cooper jumped out over Battleground in the V-23 airway.

4. I don't knows.

Me. Rataczak told me he didn't know where 305 was when Cooper jumped.  "It remains an enigma," he said. But Rataczak mind-set was one of confrontation, so flying over the Washougal wilderness makes sense.

The whole question of inter-connectedness of the flight path, jump site, and wash-up at Tina Bar, also includes a getaway plan. The whole notion of how Cooper got away is marginalized, but is critical to the discussion.

Hence, I believe that Cooper had a flexible and mobile ground team. Maybe one guy, or four as Jake suggests.  Maybe Richard McCoy was part of it. Maybe even Duane.

Maybe Cooper got away that night or waited a day or so. I suspect that he got away that night. That also means that he was able to somehow communicate with his ground team. I think it's important to think SOG Team, and not a solo criminal, not a "schlub" as GG is currently describing DB Cooper, or a two-bit "Rotten, Sleazy Crook" as Himmelsbach has so famously declared.

Billy Waugh thinks it was a SOG team, and I'm with Billy.

An anecdote:

When I interviewed two agents who worked the excavation at Tina Bar I threw in a wild card question: "How do YOU think the money got to Tina Bar?" One said, "We were told the money had come from the Washougal. The second said, "Most of us thought it had come from somewhere near by. That made for a gigantic search area so we had to scale things back to the Tina Bar area alone. The official view was that the Washougal was involved". (smart answer in my opinion!).
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 08, 2014, 11:44:53 PM
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Historical Crests for Columbia River at Vancouver

(P): Preliminary values subject to further review.

(1) 31.00 ft on 06/13/1948
(2) 30.80 ft on 06/01/1948
(3) 27.70 ft on 12/25/1964


what website is this from? - will send you some files.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 08, 2014, 11:49:16 PM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?
 

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on September 09, 2014, 12:01:09 AM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?


Ok....

The USGS website is where I got the numbers....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 09, 2014, 12:25:03 AM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?


Ok....

The USGS website is where I got the numbers....

mail on the way -
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on September 09, 2014, 12:29:45 AM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?


Ok....

The USGS website is where I got the numbers....

mail on the way -

Got it.... thanks. I'll look at them tomorrow. gotta hit the hay.... 8)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 09, 2014, 12:36:15 AM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?


Ok....

The USGS website is where I got the numbers....

mail on the way -

Got it.... thanks. I'll look at them tomorrow. gotta hit the hay.... 8)

later -
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on September 09, 2014, 02:04:24 AM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?


Ok....

The USGS website is where I got the numbers....

mail on the way -

Got it.... thanks. I'll look at them tomorrow. gotta hit the hay.... 8)

later -

Also remember that not only did the HORIZONTAL DATUM change from NAD27 (or something like that) to WGS84 in the mid-1980s, but the VERTICAL DATUM also changed during the same time frame.  The vertical datum change was only a couple of feet or so but be careful to apply the change correctly to the old datum data.

And do any of us really know what the term "Mean Sea Level" means?  Don't bet on it.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on September 09, 2014, 02:31:20 AM
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It's possible Palmer's dig is right on top of the money find. I never noticed Palmer in this photo while they were sifting the dirt looking for pieces. did he do his examination after the FBI cleared the area?

He was right there in the middle of everyone/everything fully involved -

Ask Tom about the value of taking core samples today and what he thinks, then get back to us?


Ok....

The USGS website is where I got the numbers....

mail on the way -

Got it.... thanks. I'll look at them tomorrow. gotta hit the hay.... 8)

later -

Also remember that not only did the HORIZONTAL DATUM change from NAD27 (or something like that) to WGS84 in the mid-1980s, but the VERTICAL DATUM also changed during the same time frame.  The vertical datum change was only a couple of feet or so but be careful to apply the change correctly to the old datum data.

And do any of us really know what the term "Mean Sea Level" means?  Don't bet on it.

Robert99

yes! and yes! points well taken - Shutter will have questions. I sent him the graphic versions. Should send him the numeric.

See this. He has a larger free standing version I have used: 
http://arohatgi.info/WebPlotDigitizer/

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Columbia River Water contamination FBI tests post find
Post by: georger on September 18, 2014, 03:40:51 PM
R99 says: "Tests on the Tina Bar money by Tom Kaye did not find any evidence of Columbia River contamination. But Tom does not consider this to be conclusive pending further testing. "

No, I guess not, but as previously posted, the FBI did their own tests in 1980 and did document evidence of Columbia river water contamination specifically, paraphrasing:

''' ... results of an examination by  laboratory division estimate the amount recovered at approx $5800 ...  finger prints negative ...  evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time ... mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water sand(s)... examination and comparisons of sand types noted ...'''

I have posted this before. I dont believe Tom had any silt deposits removed from between the bills to examine.
That is probably the source of use of the word 'pending' with respect to this matter. Moreover Tom has never referred to these lab reports the FBI has - why I have no idea.

         
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Columbia River Water contamination FBI tests post find
Post by: Robert99 on September 18, 2014, 04:27:25 PM
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R99 says: "Tests on the Tina Bar money by Tom Kaye did not find any evidence of Columbia River contamination. But Tom does not consider this to be conclusive pending further testing. "

No, I guess not, but as previously posted, the FBI did their own tests in 1980 and did document evidence of Columbia river water contamination specifically, paraphrasing:

''' ... results of an examination by  laboratory division estimate the amount recovered at approx $5800 ...  finger prints negative ...  evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time ... mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water ... examination and comparisons of sand types noted ...'''

I have posted this before. I dont believe Tom had any silt deposits removed from between the bills to examine.
That is probably the source of use of the word 'pending' with respect to this matter. Moreover Tom has never referred to these lab reports the FBI has - why I have no idea.

       

Let me hazard a guess at what some of the FBI's remarks may mean:

1.  The ". . . evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time . . ." remark may mean only that the Tina Bar money had been exposed to water (from whatever source) for quite a while.  Since the money had been buried at Tina Bar for probably a lengthy time and had undoubtedly been in the sand with several feet of Columbia River water over it at times, the Columbia would be the logical, but not necessarily correct, choice for the water source.

2. The ". . . mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water . . . examination and comparisons of sand types noted . . ." remarks mean to me that the Tina Bar bills landed very close to the Columbia River and in an area that had been flooded previously by the Columbia with depositing of typical Columbia River silts and sands.  Or to put it another way, the money found at Tina Bar had been there, or very close to Tina Bar, since the hijacking.

Robert99   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: 18C on September 18, 2014, 04:35:04 PM
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The "Flight From Justice" is suppose to be about Cooper, but 98% of it seems to be about McCoy...

Is ''Flight From Justice" on-line anywhere? The rest of that series seem to be easy enough to find, but not the Cooper/McCoy episode.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Columbia River Water contamination FBI tests post find
Post by: georger on September 18, 2014, 06:01:25 PM
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R99 says: "Tests on the Tina Bar money by Tom Kaye did not find any evidence of Columbia River contamination. But Tom does not consider this to be conclusive pending further testing. "

No, I guess not, but as previously posted, the FBI did their own tests in 1980 and did document evidence of Columbia river water contamination specifically, paraphrasing:

''' ... results of an examination by  laboratory division estimate the amount recovered at approx $5800 ...  finger prints negative ...  evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time ... mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water ... examination and comparisons of sand types noted ...'''

I have posted this before. I dont believe Tom had any silt deposits removed from between the bills to examine.
That is probably the source of use of the word 'pending' with respect to this matter. Moreover Tom has never referred to these lab reports the FBI has - why I have no idea.

       

Let me hazard a guess at what some of the FBI's remarks may mean:

1.  The ". . . evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time . . ." remark may mean only that the Tina Bar money had been exposed to water (from whatever source) for quite a while.  Since the money had been buried at Tina Bar for probably a lengthy time and had undoubtedly been in the sand with several feet of Columbia River water over it at times, the Columbia would be the logical, but not necessarily correct, choice for the water source.

2. The ". . . mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water . . . examination and comparisons of sand types noted . . ." remarks mean to me that the Tina Bar bills landed very close to the Columbia River and in an area that had been flooded previously by the Columbia with depositing of typical Columbia River silts and sands.  Or to put it another way, the money found at Tina Bar had been there, or very close to Tina Bar, since the hijacking.

Robert99

I agree with your analysis generally. The report documents 'round river sand like that found in the Columbia'. (what other types of sand would it be? or in the Tina Bar area specifically?) "Round sand" caught my attention. Obviously the lab techs were looking for anything that might speak to origin or source of the money. ie trip to Tina Bar from someplace else. It may be they were looking for mineralogical sediments consistent with the Washougal vs Columbia, between the bills? And of course I am sitting here reading report after I received it, under the mandate to look for anything 'in the money that will shed light on the source of the money'. So these FBI lab reports really peaked my interest. If you take the reports at face value, they seem to say the origin of the Cooper money was the Columbia basin itself, and no other (geologically different) region. The reports document 'exposure to Columbia river water'. None of the reports mention finding diatoms. And, so far as I know Tom found nothing to conflict with those early FBI lab reports. The FBI lab reports and Tom's analysis seem to agree.       
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Columbia River Water contamination FBI tests post find
Post by: georger on September 18, 2014, 11:46:24 PM
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R99 says: "Tests on the Tina Bar money by Tom Kaye did not find any evidence of Columbia River contamination. But Tom does not consider this to be conclusive pending further testing. "

No, I guess not, but as previously posted, the FBI did their own tests in 1980 and did document evidence of Columbia river water contamination specifically, paraphrasing:

''' ... results of an examination by  laboratory division estimate the amount recovered at approx $5800 ...  finger prints negative ...  evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time ... mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water ... examination and comparisons of sand types noted ...'''

I have posted this before. I dont believe Tom had any silt deposits removed from between the bills to examine.
That is probably the source of use of the word 'pending' with respect to this matter. Moreover Tom has never referred to these lab reports the FBI has - why I have no idea.

       

Let me hazard a guess at what some of the FBI's remarks may mean:

1.  The ". . . evidence of immersion in the Columbia for a long period of time . . ." remark may mean only that the Tina Bar money had been exposed to water (from whatever source) for quite a while.  Since the money had been buried at Tina Bar for probably a lengthy time and had undoubtedly been in the sand with several feet of Columbia River water over it at times, the Columbia would be the logical, but not necessarily correct, choice for the water source.

2. The ". . . mineralogy of silt deposits between the bills consistent with Columbia river water . . . examination and comparisons of sand types noted . . ." remarks mean to me that the Tina Bar bills landed very close to the Columbia River and in an area that had been flooded previously by the Columbia with depositing of typical Columbia River silts and sands.  Or to put it another way, the money found at Tina Bar had been there, or very close to Tina Bar, since the hijacking.

Robert99

I agree with your analysis generally. The report documents 'round river sand like that found in the Columbia'. (what other types of sand would it be? or in the Tina Bar area specifically?) "Round sand" caught my attention. Obviously the lab techs were looking for anything that might speak to origin or source of the money. ie trip to Tina Bar from someplace else. It may be they were looking for mineralogical sediments consistent with the Washougal vs Columbia, between the bills? And of course I am sitting here reading report after I received it, under the mandate to look for anything 'in the money that will shed light on the source of the money'. So these FBI lab reports really peaked my interest. If you take the reports at face value, they seem to say the origin of the Cooper money was the Columbia basin itself, and no other (geologically different) region. The reports document 'exposure to Columbia river water'. None of the reports mention finding diatoms. And, so far as I know Tom found nothing to conflict with those early FBI lab reports. The FBI lab reports and Tom's analysis seem to agree.       

I'm going to add to mine above to be more clear:

Obviously, clear back in Feb 1980, the FBI wanted to know where/how the money had come from to be found at Tina Bar. Seeking clues, the FBI lab looked at the sediment & minerals/sand found between the bills. They noted round silicate sand. They did not find (a) sharp sand, ie processed sand, eg. from the Fazio sand operation. Sharp sand is a processed material used as a construction material. (b) they found no minerals consistent with Washougal geology, and (c) they found only round sand consistent with Columbia river sand.

The lack of sharp sand does not mean the money did not come from some sediment deposit elsewhere and closer to the Fazio sand operation.

 

     
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2014, 11:22:50 AM
what is the typical condition of the sand were the money was found. was it dry, moist, wet? I'm going to take a dollar bill and stick it in some sand, but I want to try and control it to a degree. do I water it like a plant  ;D leave it dry etc. what is my best option in Florida to reproduce a decent test?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 12, 2014, 01:23:37 PM
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what is the typical condition of the sand were the money was found. was it dry, moist, wet? I'm going to take a dollar bill and stick it in some sand, but I want to try and control it to a degree. do I water it like a plant  ;D leave it dry etc. what is my best option in Florida to reproduce a decent test?

I think Tom Kaye discusses the conditions that he simulated during his ground and water tests with dollar bills and discusses these on his web page.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2014, 01:35:20 PM
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what is the typical condition of the sand were the money was found. was it dry, moist, wet? I'm going to take a dollar bill and stick it in some sand, but I want to try and control it to a degree. do I water it like a plant  ;D leave it dry etc. what is my best option in Florida to reproduce a decent test?

I think Tom Kaye discusses the conditions that he simulated during his ground and water tests with dollar bills and discusses these on his web page.


Yes, I read them. I would like to put an entire bill under those conditions, not just a piece.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 02:10:38 PM
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what is the typical condition of the sand were the money was found. was it dry, moist, wet? I'm going to take a dollar bill and stick it in some sand, but I want to try and control it to a degree. do I water it like a plant  ;D leave it dry etc. what is my best option in Florida to reproduce a decent test?

I think Tom Kaye discusses the conditions that he simulated during his ground and water tests with dollar bills and discusses these on his web page.

I almost hesitate to answer this because I am not personally familiar with this beach, but the Fazio's remarked 'the money was found right on the tide line'. That places the elevation from the water line in Feb 1980, so periodically wet with surface drying but generally moist at deeper depth, depending on the time of year. The Ingrams said the bundle of money was wet-soggy when found.

The whole issue of wet vs. dry introduces a contradiction.  When asked why the money had survived at all in this natural wet setting, Palmer answered "Because the upper layer of sand is sterile".  ;)?????  When asked how much longer the money could have survived under the conditions at this location, Palmer replied, "not much longer, perhaps less than a year"!    ;)????   Evidence of progressive (end stage?) decay from bacterial invasion is evident from the photos of Tom Kaye.  ;)????  Both the Ingrams and Dorwin Schreuder have remarked about how it appeared 'some of the money had turned to mush' and 'I wouldn't be at all surprised that some of what we dug and raked through was decayed money, ie mush, and we found several small fragments that just fell apart like mush between our fingers - no way to tell how much money was originally there at this location because of the state of decay...'.   ;)????   Dorwin again: 'No, we made no attempt to have what may have been decayed mushy money analyzed, but we did bag the fragments that were clearly pieces of money'. 

These bundles were not a dry composite of crisp clean and dry bills neatly or easily separated, one from the other, but the exact opposite. When Pat Ingram tried to wash in the sink a segment of the money they had managed to separate, part of those bills immediately turned into a viscous gooey mess that melted away! Pat immediately stopped for fear of melting all of that bills and returned that segment to the kitchen table to be blotted of moisture and dried. In another attempt to clean and refresh several bills, Pat Ingram introduced Clorox into water in the sink and dropped several bills into that. The bills instantly softened and melted away! Shocked, Pat stopped that technique. 

So far as I know, no soil samples containing decayed matter, were tested for possible paper money content, forensically.

Tom Kaye and especially Brian Ingram both have personal knowledge in this matter.

 



   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2014, 02:41:12 PM
all the pictures seem to indicate being further away from the tide line, or at least the focus points? would they build a fire that close to the water?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 02:58:52 PM
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all the pictures seem to indicate being further away from the tide line, or at least the focus points? would they build a fire that close to the water?

The Fazios were so insistent that the Ingram find was "right on the tide line" that Al Fazio (still tells?) that 'the money was brought up onto the beach by the tide, sometime over the week just before the find'.

Several people questioned Fazio's judgement and asked "just where is the tide line" ? Fazio's tide explanation doesn't explain the 6-8 inches of sediment in and around/over the money. Palmer didn't accept Fazio's explanation. Fazio's explanation seems like a weak or impossible argument to me ....................

So far as I know Tom Kaye has never produced a diagram, showing the tide line for the week of the 14th February 1980 vs. the gps location of the Ingram find. This bundles of money was not a piece of wood to be floated onto the Faxio beach, in any event. Other processes were involved - not tide, until it is proved tide could do this to a bundles of wet money bills! On the other hand, I have no doubt that tides worked that beach perhaps having a role in finally removing enough sand to expose the Ingram money at a previously deeper depth ... that I have no problem accepting.
   



     
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2014, 03:10:47 PM
It's all so aggravating at times with anything surrounding the case. one can truly never get a grip on anything. you can't use the appearance of the money for clues since the Ingrams messes with it. the FBI dusted the money. the dredging is a question. the flight path sends you bonkers. bald guys are suspects, some of the crew runs away and refuses to talk about the case. the FBI has memory problems, and lock it down. it goes on and on....

WHERE IS DB COOPER  ;D :D ;) :)

When did Tosaw start looking in the Columbia, and would he of known the Fazio's? possible influence issue?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 04:46:05 PM
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It's all so aggravating at times with anything surrounding the case. one can truly never get a grip on anything. you can't use the appearance of the money for clues since the Ingrams messes with it. the FBI dusted the money. the dredging is a question. the flight path sends you bonkers. bald guys are suspects, some of the crew runs away and refuses to talk about the case. the FBI has memory problems, and lock it down. it goes on and on....

WHERE IS DB COOPER  ;D :D ;) :)

When did Tosaw start looking in the Columbia, and would he of known the Fazio's? possible influence issue?

Tosaw believed Cooper had died in the jump - agreed with H on that. Otherwise Tosaw and H were at odds. Tosaw tried to work more with the Seattle office but there were conflicts there. Tosaw went out on his own. Tosaw decided Cooper must have bailed somewhere near or into the Columbia, perhaps up near Hayden Island or as far north as near Catapillar Island, and Cooper and his loot were washed down stream from there for Cooper money to wind up on Tina Bar. Tosaw and others spent summers dragging the bottom at various locations, concentrating at times on bottom areas near wing dams, from about Frenchman's Bar north toward Catapillar Island and Tina Bar, on both sides of the river ... again concentrating on wing dam areas where he hoped Cooper's chute or Cooper's remains might be snagged. Divers were used at certain locations. Cook worked with Tosaw during one summer, or more. One of Tosaw's divers spent more time on his own exploring these areas and came up with the socalled 'flare chute' now in FBI custody. (I wonder if Kaye or Gray were shown that?)  ............  Read Tosaw's book. Galen could better explain this that I can, but I think Janet's story that the Cooper plane had been traveling west-to-south-west across Vancouver, played some role in Tosaw's choice of where to bottom search the Columbia, just south of Tina Bar. Tosaw was convinced that Cooper had perished in the process of the jump and landing, in or near the Columbia.

It's a shame Galen isn't here to add his voice. If Galen will email me I can add any comments verbatim, he wishes to make.


   

       
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 05:09:57 PM
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It's all so aggravating at times with anything surrounding the case. one can truly never get a grip on anything. you can't use the appearance of the money for clues since the Ingrams messes with it. the FBI dusted the money. the dredging is a question. the flight path sends you bonkers. bald guys are suspects, some of the crew runs away and refuses to talk about the case. the FBI has memory problems, and lock it down. it goes on and on....

WHERE IS DB COOPER  ;D :D ;) :)

When did Tosaw start looking in the Columbia, and would he of known the Fazio's? possible influence issue?

The improbability of the Ingram find -

The Ingram find as an isolated event, without there being sufficient reasons why, is an extremely low probability event on it's own. It was (is) perhaps as low a probability as winning the lottery!

It is only because there is a larger set of more general facts (with higher probability), that makes the Ingram find more probable plausible. Ingram did not win the lottery! He merely stumbled into what was already a much more highly probable set of circumstances pre-existing his family's arrival on Tina Bar, and whatever those facts are, that is the true story of the Cooper money on Tina Bar.

Grey Cop focused in on the fact that the Ingram find was a low probability event, and suggested a conspiracy and a plant of which Harold and Pat Ingram were partners along with a neighbor!

The FBI tried to resolve the Ingram find being a very low probability by conducting an excavation (spending the resources to investigate) and the Washougal Theory.

Something else more mundane and fundamental explains the Ingram find, imho, one or two things of a much higher probability nature explain Cooper money being at Tina Bar, in the first place, and very likely a lot more of the Cooper money in this area, than Ingram stumbled onto by 1980.
 

   
   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2014, 05:25:52 PM
I would love to hear what Cook has to say about the case. he needs to let Blevins go. I wasted time (again) with him myself. He has popped on here a couple times that I've seen. he is welcome back anytime.

what I was getting at with Tosaw is if he knew the Fazio's prior to 1980? perhaps they were giving him an edge by stating the money was close to the waters edge?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 12, 2014, 05:51:40 PM
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all the pictures seem to indicate being further away from the tide line, or at least the focus points? would they build a fire that close to the water?

The pictures taken of about a dozen FBI agents digging at the site of the Ingram find, and about three days after that find, shows them well above the tide line.  My eyeball guess is that they were mainly digging at about five feet vertically above the level of the river surface.  And the Columbia River level at Tina Bar was typically about five to seven feet above sea level with a daily tidal variation of less than two feet.  So this would suggest that the Ingram find was about 10 to 12 feet above sea level.

Brian Ingram found the money on Sunday, February 10, 1980.  The Vancouver, WA Columbia River gage is located a few hundred feet east of the I-5 Interstate Bridge on the Vancouver side of the river.  The maximum water level shown on the Vancouver gage that day was 5.4 feet and the minimum was 2.9 feet.

Gage "zero" was "+1.8 NGVD29/MSL".  NGVD29 refers to a vertical datum introduced in 1929.  This vertical datum was replaced by NAVD88 in the late 1980s.  Someone with experience in this area needs to verify this but if the following is correct, the maximum at the Vancouver gage on February 10, 1980 was 7.2 feet above Mean Sea Level and the minimum was 4.7 feet above MSL.

The Columbia River water level at Tina Bar, about 15+ miles downstream from this gage, would be approximately 1.0 foot less.  So if the above corrections were appropriately made, on the date of the money find the Tina Bar river level would be between 3.7 feet and 6.2 feet above MSL.

This would seem to suggest that the river had a slightly larger than normal tidal action that day and that the river level was slightly below nominal level.  This assumes that the Bonneville dam activities did not impact the water level more than normal that day.

If someone has hydrographical training/knowledge, please check the above assumptions and advise of their accuracy.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 11:26:37 PM
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I would love to hear what Cook has to say about the case. he needs to let Blevins go. I wasted time (again) with him myself. He has popped on here a couple times that I've seen. he is welcome back anytime.

what I was getting at with Tosaw is if he knew the Fazio's prior to 1980? perhaps they were giving him an edge by stating the money was close to the waters edge?

I have never heard Tosaw knew the Fazio's prior to 1980.

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 11:29:55 PM
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all the pictures seem to indicate being further away from the tide line, or at least the focus points? would they build a fire that close to the water?

The pictures taken of about a dozen FBI agents digging at the site of the Ingram find, and about three days after that find, shows them well above the tide line.  My eyeball guess is that they were mainly digging at about five feet vertically above the level of the river surface.  And the Columbia River level at Tina Bar was typically about five to seven feet above sea level with a daily tidal variation of less than two feet.  So this would suggest that the Ingram find was about 10 to 12 feet above sea level.

Brian Ingram found the money on Sunday, February 10, 1980.  The Vancouver, WA Columbia River gage is located a few hundred feet east of the I-5 Interstate Bridge on the Vancouver side of the river.  The maximum water level shown on the Vancouver gage that day was 5.4 feet and the minimum was 2.9 feet.

Gage "zero" was "+1.8 NGVD29/MSL".  NGVD29 refers to a vertical datum introduced in 1929.  This vertical datum was replaced by NAVD88 in the late 1980s.  Someone with experience in this area needs to verify this but if the following is correct, the maximum at the Vancouver gage on February 10, 1980 was 7.2 feet above Mean Sea Level and the minimum was 4.7 feet above MSL.

The Columbia River water level at Tina Bar, about 15+ miles downstream from this gage, would be approximately 1.0 foot less.  So if the above corrections were appropriately made, on the date of the money find the Tina Bar river level would be between 3.7 feet and 6.2 feet above MSL.

This would seem to suggest that the river had a slightly larger than normal tidal action that day and that the river level was slightly below nominal level.  This assumes that the Bonneville dam activities did not impact the water level more than normal that day.

If someone has hydrographical training/knowledge, please check the above assumptions and advise of their accuracy.

Robert99
excellent.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: sailshaw on October 13, 2014, 11:09:32 AM
Sutter:  You ask:  WHERE IS DB COOPER ?
My Suspect (Sheridan Peterson) is alive and living in retirement in California. He is about 90 years old now (ten years older than me) and Bruce knows where in California Sheridan is living. Possibly the book Sheridan finishes will tell the whole story after he passes away.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 13, 2014, 02:55:56 PM
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Sutter:  You ask:  WHERE IS DB COOPER ?
My Suspect (Sheridan Peterson) is alive and living in retirement in California. He is about 90 years old now (ten years older than me) and Bruce knows where in California Sheridan is living. Possibly the book Sheridan finishes will tell the whole story after he passes away.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Isn't it true the FBI collected his dna and tested it, and said 'No' ?

What has this got to do with the money find - more appropriate under Suspects ?

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 13, 2014, 07:36:39 PM
"What has this got to do with the money find - more appropriate under Suspects ?"

I don't think Sailshaw did it on purpose. he was responding to the last part of my post above.

In the future if someone see's something out of the norm, either hit the moderator button, or PM about any issues.


Shutter.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - too far away to be associated -
Post by: georger on October 17, 2014, 04:33:07 PM
Tom Kaye says, speaking about the money location vs north dredging pile:

The measurement between the center of the dredging sand and the money find is approximately 150 yards. In order for the money bundles to be washed up by the dredge, it would require them to be bulldozed 150 yards up the beach. This is 200% more than the stated and visual distances making it unlikely the money was buried due to dredging.

In other words, Tom is saying, I guess, that the money find location is too far away from the north dredging spoils pile, to have had a physical connection - association.

But is that too far away for the money to have been contaminated by the trace elements in the dredging pile?

Too far away for one. Too far away for the other?  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) 

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Dredging deposits 1974
Post by: georger on October 19, 2014, 03:39:32 PM
We know the following:

USCE Main channel Dredging project 8/6 – 9/18 1974

Spoils placed at three locations: two on the Fazio property at Tina Bar, and one on the Oregon side.
Fazio deposits placed between 8/19 – 8/25 1974. No mention of dates or precise location of the Oregon side deposit.

Spreading of the Fazio deposits by the Fazios using a tractor with blade ’50 yards both directions off centers of both piles’ after a period of settling, two week contract to be completed by 9/8/74.

USGS aerial photos of Tin Bar on 9/6/74.


Questions: where was the Oregon side location?  Was the Oregon side location searched for Cooper money?  (No mention it ever was). Can anyone spot the Oregon side dredging pile on the 9/6/74 USGS aerial photo, because I can't! ?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 21, 2014, 12:54:11 PM
A few more photos that convey the basics of the dredging and find location. Notice the changes in vegetation especially in the area of the money find by 1979/80. With a loss of vegetation, the location is far more open to get into (and inspect), with an increased chance that somebody could get into that area to notice something if something was there to notice. Prior to this the area is a kind of entrapment zone. Palmer's trench was dug on the yellow line in the one illustration - the yellow dot marks Tom Kaye's gps location of the Ingram money find -
   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 21, 2014, 12:54:57 PM
More money find dredging data -
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Dredging deposits 1974
Post by: hom on October 21, 2014, 01:50:21 PM
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.....
Can anyone spot the Oregon side dredging pile on the 9/6/74 USGS aerial photo, because I can't! ?

The Oregon side location was probably selected (in part) because of proximity to the dredging location, which could have been up- or down-river from the part visible in the pic.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 21, 2014, 02:09:25 PM
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More money find dredging data -

The money find location is actually about the middle of the penciled circles in the 1974 photos.  The horizontal location is now under water due to severe beach erosion.

Taking the road west at the top of the "L" buildings, the dairy containment pit's "southwest corner" is at the "northeast corner" intersection of the road west and the road that parallels the river.  The find location was on the beach that existed in 1980 between the containment pit and the river water.

From Georger's last picture above, it appears possible that some of the dredged material may have been deposited close to the find location.

Also, the channel between the "mainland" and Caterpillar Island used to be described on topographical charts as mud flats.  Currently, the boat facility in that channel appears to be able to handle boats with about four or five feet of draft.  So that channel was probably dredged at some point and a good time to do it would have been in the late 1970s at the same time the Flushing Channel to Vancouver Lake was constructed.  Is there any information on where the dredged material from those projects was deposited?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 21, 2014, 05:40:23 PM
Keep in mind the penciled area is inaccurate......this photo is from Websleuths.



(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/DredgeOverlay_sml.jpg)

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inaccurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 21, 2014, 11:21:04 PM
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Keep in mind the penciled area is inaccurate......this photo is from Websleuths.



(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/DredgeOverlay_sml.jpg)

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inaccurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find.

The circles were never intended to be accurate, according to Larry. In fact if you look at the photos 1970-79 the
position of the circles varies - some enclose the Kaye GPS position and some don't. The fact is, I'm not even sure how accurate Tom's recovered position is. When I asked Brian if he knew the exact place where the money was found he said "No'. He said 'Tom made a good estimate'. That is basically why until something better surfaces, I take Tom's position as the best estimate to date. I don't know that anyone ever surveyed the exact location just after the Ingram's has found the money ?
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 12:04:13 AM
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Keep in mind the penciled area is inaccurate......this photo is from Websleuths.



(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/DredgeOverlay_sml.jpg)

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inaccurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find.

The circles were never intended to be accurate, according to Larry. In fact if you look at the photos 1970-79 the
position of the circles varies - some enclose the Kaye GPS position and some don't. The fact is, I'm not even sure how accurate Tom's recovered position is. When I asked Brian if he knew the exact place where the money was found he said "No'. He said 'Tom made a good estimate'. That is basically why until something better surfaces, I take Tom's position as the best estimate to date. I don't know that anyone ever surveyed the exact location just after the Ingram's has found the money ?
 

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visited to Tina Bar in July, 2013, we used a hand held GPS to locate Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates for the money find location.  The east-west (longitude) coordinate that Tom gives is now actually several feet off shore and underwater.  But the north-south (latitude) coordinate indicates that the money was found between the containment pit and the water line as they existed in 1980.  And that point is basically in the middle of the pencil circles in the 1974 picture.

Additionally, I think the picture of about 10 FBI agents digging at the find location can be used to support the above location by comparing the objects shown on the west side of the Columbia River to their locations on a topographical chart.  Using all means to define the location, I think the paper pins are in the wrong positions.  They are to far north and the money was found south of them.  To repeat, multiple sources seem to agree that the money was found between the west wall of the containment pit and the river water.

The yellow pin on the 1974 map indicates the approximate location of an outdoor john (at least in 2013).  And the money find location is slightly north of the end of the red line.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Dredging deposits 1974
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 12:34:52 AM
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.....
Can anyone spot the Oregon side dredging pile on the 9/6/74 USGS aerial photo, because I can't! ?

The Oregon side location was probably selected (in part) because of proximity to the dredging location, which could have been up- or down-river from the part visible in the pic.

The Fazio deposits consisting of 91,100 cubic yards of fill came from between mile markers '96 plus 38 feet and river mile 97 plus 17 feet'.

Maybe the Oregon side deposit is close to this area?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 12:40:21 AM
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More money find dredging data -

The money find location is actually about the middle of the penciled circles in the 1974 photos.  The horizontal location is now under water due to severe beach erosion.

Taking the road west at the top of the "L" buildings, the dairy containment pit's "southwest corner" is at the "northeast corner" intersection of the road west and the road that parallels the river.  The find location was on the beach that existed in 1980 between the containment pit and the river water.

From Georger's last picture above, it appears possible that some of the dredged material may have been deposited close to the find location.

Also, the channel between the "mainland" and Caterpillar Island used to be described on topographical charts as mud flats.  Currently, the boat facility in that channel appears to be able to handle boats with about four or five feet of draft.  So that channel was probably dredged at some point and a good time to do it would have been in the late 1970s at the same time the Flushing Channel to Vancouver Lake was constructed.  Is there any information on where the dredged material from those projects was deposited?

The money find location is actually about the middle of the penciled circles in the 1974 photos.

What do you base this location on, above?

I am using Tom's gps location off his published chart. Note the same set of trees on photos 1970-1979.

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 12:45:04 AM
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Keep in mind the penciled area is inaccurate......this photo is from Websleuths.



(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/DredgeOverlay_sml.jpg)

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inaccurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find.

The circles were never intended to be accurate, according to Larry. In fact if you look at the photos 1970-79 the
position of the circles varies - some enclose the Kaye GPS position and some don't. The fact is, I'm not even sure how accurate Tom's recovered position is. When I asked Brian if he knew the exact place where the money was found he said "No'. He said 'Tom made a good estimate'. That is basically why until something better surfaces, I take Tom's position as the best estimate to date. I don't know that anyone ever surveyed the exact location just after the Ingram's has found the money ?
 

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visited to Tina Bar in July, 2013, we used a hand held GPS to locate Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates for the money find location.  The east-west (longitude) coordinate that Tom gives is now actually several feet off shore and underwater.  But the north-south (latitude) coordinate indicates that the money was found between the containment pit and the water line as it existed at they existed in 1980.  And that point is basically in the middle of the pencil circles in the 1974 picture.

Additionally, I think the picture of about 10 FBI agents digging at the find location can be used to support the above location by comparing the objects shown on the west side of the Columbia River to their locations on a topographical chart.  Using all means to define the location, I think the paper pins are in the wrong positions.  They are to far north and the money was found south of them.  To repeat, multiple sources seem to agree that the money was found between the west wall of the containment pit and the river water.

The yellow pin on the 1974 map indicates the approximate location of an outdoor john (at least in 2013).  And the money find location is slightly north of the end of the red line.

Well, if you are correct a d Tom's chart is wrong, that dismisses Tom's objections based 'distance away from the north dredge spoil site'. Let me go back and read Tom's website for the umpteenth time.  If the money find was right over the 1974 spoil pile that opens other possibilities based on other data Tom collected ... I just wish we could get this location settled once and for all. I have at least six different locations from different 'experts' who have supposedly been to Tina Bar, several more who have never been there. One contended (with a map!) that the money was found clear down on the south end of the Fazio property .... and it goes on and on.

BTW: most people seem to agree that Palmer's trench was dug just to the side (south) of where the Ingram's said they had found the money; and several agents who were there confirmed that to me.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 02:09:18 AM
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Keep in mind the penciled area is inaccurate......this photo is from Websleuths.



(http://www.citizensleuths.com/images/Pictures/DredgeOverlay_sml.jpg)

Fig. 3 1974 dredging image from FBI archive overlaid on Googe Earth. The penciled circle is the inaccurate location of the money find from 1980. The pronounced hump in the beach is the result of the dredging pipe dumping sand on the beach. The red line represents the distance sand was moved north on the beach from the dredging pipe. The yellow pin marks the recoverd position of the money find.

The circles were never intended to be accurate, according to Larry. In fact if you look at the photos 1970-79 the
position of the circles varies - some enclose the Kaye GPS position and some don't. The fact is, I'm not even sure how accurate Tom's recovered position is. When I asked Brian if he knew the exact place where the money was found he said "No'. He said 'Tom made a good estimate'. That is basically why until something better surfaces, I take Tom's position as the best estimate to date. I don't know that anyone ever surveyed the exact location just after the Ingram's has found the money ?
 

When Meyer Louie and I paid a visited to Tina Bar in July, 2013, we used a hand held GPS to locate Tom Kaye's GPS coordinates for the money find location.  The east-west (longitude) coordinate that Tom gives is now actually several feet off shore and underwater.  But the north-south (latitude) coordinate indicates that the money was found between the containment pit and the water line as it existed at they existed in 1980.  And that point is basically in the middle of the pencil circles in the 1974 picture.

Additionally, I think the picture of about 10 FBI agents digging at the find location can be used to support the above location by comparing the objects shown on the west side of the Columbia River to their locations on a topographical chart.  Using all means to define the location, I think the paper pins are in the wrong positions.  They are to far north and the money was found south of them.  To repeat, multiple sources seem to agree that the money was found between the west wall of the containment pit and the river water.

The yellow pin on the 1974 map indicates the approximate location of an outdoor john (at least in 2013).  And the money find location is slightly north of the end of the red line.

Well, if you are correct a d Tom's chart is wrong, that dismisses Tom's objections based 'distance away from the north dredge spoil site'. Let me go back and read Tom's website for the umpteenth time.  If the money find was right over the 1974 spoil pile that opens other possibilities based on other data Tom collected ... I just wish we could get this location settled once and for all. I have at least six different locations from different 'experts' who have supposedly been to Tina Bar, several more who have never been there. One contended (with a map!) that the money was found clear down on the south end of the Fazio property .... and it goes on and on.

BTW: most people seem to agree that Palmer's trench was dug just to the side (south) of where the Ingram's said they had found the money; and several agents who were there confirmed that to me.

In February 2013, Tom Kaye had the following statement on his web page in his discussion of the Tena Bar Money find:

     "The GPS position of the recovered money find was determined to be at: lat. 45.717888, long. -122.759500."

I don't remember seeing a map with this position plotted in Tom's discussion.  But Meyer Louie and I went to that position (at least as close as we could get) using a hand held GPS to determine the coordinates.

And as I have stated previously in this discussion, that position is between the containment pit and the water's edge (as it existed in 1980) and roughly in the middle of the pencil circles on the 1974 map.  These circles are labeled in your attached photograph as "Wrong/JT".

Additionally, in our lengthy discussions with "Jon", the Tina Bar regular, he made no effort at all to say that we were in the wrong place for the money find.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 07:13:19 AM
I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Robert W. Touchberry Sr., 89 died Wednesday
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 12:29:56 PM
Just got word yesterday: The former chairman of the Dept of Dairy Science, Univ of Washington, Robert W. Touchberry Sr., died June 29, 2011 age 89, at his home in Iowa. Bob knew the Fazio Brothers and had been at their operation in Vancouver a number of times. Bob was a consultant to the original Science Team under SA Larry Carr, before Tom Kaye joined the team.




 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 01:24:08 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 03:44:39 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 03:49:55 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

Snow did extensive research on the dredger (auger) used, back at DZ. Posts are still there. He found many examples of rocks, paper, wood, even a case of a small tv almost intact passing through the auger. Total shredding may be a myth in spite of the FBI report from the dredging company saying 'everything would have been shredded'.
Two agents even told several people part of a briefcase had been found, but then retracted their statement turning that into the status of a rumor. 

Tom is relying on the FBI/Dredging Co. report as the final word. So far as I know the Fazios weren't helpful - all they said was "we didn't see anything when we spread out the piles'...  whatever that means?

We know there were two main vectors for debris appearing at Tina Bar 1971-1980: (a) hydrological deposition, and (b)  the dredging in 1974. Both involve the Columbia river.

Furthermore, Tom Kaye says Palmer's identification of strata was wrong! Is Tom saying some or none of the 1974 dredging spoils were at Tina Bar in 1980, or had they all eroded away by that date? ..............       

We may never know "how" the money got to Tina Bar. We might be able to narrow the timeline when it could have happened (and not happened) but even that is problematic with today's data.

Could the dredger have passed some money bundles? Tom and the FBI/Dredging Co say absolutely not. Snow says 'maybe' and cites examples of things passing through that dredge. The remaining Fazio hasn't clarified anything except to say he thinks the money came up on the shoreline during the last high tide just prior it being found (which doesn;t seem likely). 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 03:56:12 PM
I also found reason to believe debris gets through the dredge lines. it still needs to be intact for almost 9 years of weathering, submerged, temps, bugs etc. I don't know if the money could of done that? if it was hung up on land somewhere protected in the bag for several years, you might have a claim.

almost 3 years in the water, then brought up to the surface. is this possible?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 03:59:02 PM
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I also found reason to believe debris gets through the dredge lines. it still needs to be intact for almost 9 years of weathering, submerged, temps, bugs etc. I don't know if the money could of done that? if it was hung up on land somewhere protected in the bag for several years, you might have a claim.

almost 3 years in the water, then brought up to the surface. is this possible?

The Fazios were there! What did they see or not see!? Do they just spread stuff around and unless something the size of car hit's their blade ... they dont see anything and nothing else but sand is there?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 04:05:16 PM
it's possible since the money was wet it blended in with the sand, or it just didn't surface enough to be exposed. since the sand was spread out, it had to of been towards the start of the dredging on that spoil. that is once again if the money came out of the Columbia.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 04:10:22 PM
The dredge kicks up a lot of things on the bottom. it's possible the money was flung all over the place at the bottom? one would think some of it would be trapped in the system. it has several guards prior to the screen at the end of the pipe.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 04:13:48 PM
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it's possible since the money was wet it blended in with the sand, or it just didn't surface enough to be exposed. since the sand was spread out, it had to of been towards the start of the dredging on that spoil. that is once again if the money came out of the Columbia.

Who knows at what point in the dredging money/bag/etc might have come up?

What nags me is Tom's beliefs about the Palmer strata and whether Tom is saying dredging spoils were all gone by 1980, or only a thin layer from the 74 dredging remained ... just under the top 4-8 inches identified as the upper active layer in Palmer's report. Pending chemistry and particle tests at the time, I don't know how anyone can know for certain? 

And! We haven't even opened the whole issue of how (and why) Cooper money would have been a part of the bottom sediment, where the dredging occurred, to be brought up with the dredging spoils ... at all!  That to my mind is a large a question as anything else in this conundrum.

Moreover, Tom is staunch in his beliefs and opinions and will not discuss this openly. That complicates everything from my point of view - it is like he is waiting for someone (the right person) to present something of great merit before he will participate in any discussion worthy of his participation?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 04:23:47 PM
well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time would that be?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 04:25:50 PM
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 04:33:42 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 04:34:11 PM
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 04:42:31 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.


I tried several ways. I keep popping up in Korea?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 22, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D

Merzy Doats!  :) :) One central element in the history of this case has been a continual revision of the jump timeline. That fact is as clear as day and documented 100 times over, going back to Himmelsbach's sudden press announcement in 1976: 'we now believe he bailed some 12 miles north of Portland'. The word is Portland not Vancouver!  The whole east path myth begins years later around 1980... they already knew, had been debating and reviewing this 1974-76) and were finally willing to concede Cooper must have bailed further south than originally calculated. Carr reads the files and comes here in 2008 and almost the first thing on his mind is: 'when on the timeline did Cooper ACTUALLY bail'. The timeline has been open to revision since day one of this hijacking.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 04:57:55 PM
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time would that be?

If Cooper fell head first for the entire 10,000 feet, almost two miles, he would reach a terminal velocity of about 180+ MPH after dropping about 1000 to 1500 feet and would have impacted the ground (or maybe water) in about 40 seconds.

If Cooper managed to maintain a stable skydiver spread for the entire distance (which is not possible under the circumstances in my judgment), his top speed would have been about 120+ MPH and he would have impacted the ground/water in less than 60 seconds.

If Cooper tumbled all the way down, and he probably did in my judgment, then the time to impact would probably be between the 40 and 60 seconds.  Horizontally, for Cooper to land on the ground at the money find location, the airliner would basically have to be over the western half of the Columbia River water.  He would continue to travel down track about 1250 feet before his descent would be completely vertical with respect to the air mass.  And the winds that evening would be from the southwest and blow him about 500 to 1000 feet to the northeast during his fall.

To impact at Tina Bar under the above conditions, Cooper's jump point would probably be over the western half of the Columbia River water surface and approximately 1000 feet North of Tina Bar.  Due to the overcast, all the clouds, and other factors, there is no way that Cooper could have known what was below him when he jumped.

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 05:05:19 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.


I tried several ways. I keep popping up in Korea?

Make sure that you have WEST longitude plugged into that.  The "-" in Tom Kaye's position should be a "+" if you use those symbols and end up in Korea.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 05:07:09 PM
Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 05:19:05 PM
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D

Merzy Doats!  :) :) One central element in the history of this case has been a continual revision of the jump timeline. That fact is as clear as day and documented 100 times over, going back to Himmelsbach's sudden press announcement in 1976: 'we now believe he bailed some 12 miles north of Portland'. The word is Portland not Vancouver!  The whole east path myth begins years later around 1980... they already knew, had been debating and reviewing this 1974-76) and were finally willing to concede Cooper must have bailed further south than originally calculated. Carr reads the files and comes here in 2008 and almost the first thing on his mind is: 'when on the timeline did Cooper ACTUALLY bail'. The timeline has been open to revision since day one of this hijacking.

Assuming that the airliner overflew the Tina Bar area and that the voice part of the message from the airliner that it was "23 DME miles south of Portland" was actually made at 8:18 PM (as stated in one note in the NWA employee's papers posted on WSHM's web page), Cooper would have had to jump about 5 or 6 minutes earlier or about 8:12 PM (give or take a minute or so).
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 05:20:21 PM
Finally got it. here is what Google plots it as.....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 05:53:24 PM
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well, as we all know there could easily be a timing issue with Cooper's jump time. if he didn't really know where he was, and could see some light. how can we be certain he knew where the river was?

If Cooper bailed close to the Columbia and didn't open his chute. where would be the best guess of where he left the plane, and what time wqould that be?

That is why I and others nag and continually go back to the time issue on the flight path-jump. The time issue is crucial and everyone knows that! The GD airplane intersected and crossed the Columbia River - duhhh! Money was then found on the Vancouver side shoreline of the river. There ist a connection!

Egg-Zack-Lee......how close to the river would he have to be to change his name from Dan, to Bob. (fishing bobber)  ;D

Merzy Doats!  :) :) One central element in the history of this case has been a continual revision of the jump timeline. That fact is as clear as day and documented 100 times over, going back to Himmelsbach's sudden press announcement in 1976: 'we now believe he bailed some 12 miles north of Portland'. The word is Portland not Vancouver!  The whole east path myth begins years later around 1980... they already knew, had been debating and reviewing this 1974-76) and were finally willing to concede Cooper must have bailed further south than originally calculated. Carr reads the files and comes here in 2008 and almost the first thing on his mind is: 'when on the timeline did Cooper ACTUALLY bail'. The timeline has been open to revision since day one of this hijacking.


All understood, but, we seem to have money on a river bank, differences in where he jumped. no body, not chute. it's possible he made it, but I'm leaning towards ker-plunk. it doesn't make sense for Cooper to plant the money. nobody was on his trail. the FBI thinks he died, why bring it all up again confusing the FBI?

Where exactly is 12 miles from Portland, is it from PDX, or Downtown Portland. from PDX it puts Cooper above Battleground, and if you go by Downtown Portland, it goes above Orchards? I'm looking at other possibilities since we seem to have lots of conflictions & reports.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: MarkBennett on October 22, 2014, 06:26:40 PM
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I have a certain degree of belief dredging had a roll in this. however, can the money withstand the years and violence of the dredge? can the money survive underwater in the bag and then ripped apart by the dredge? I can see the money being fused together while being in the bag on land, but can this occur while under water? if it's close to the north spoil can we conclude that erosion brought it to the surface?

Robert, how do you switch the coords so they can be put into Google maps? these coords don't work.

What format do you need for them to work on the Google maps?  Switching is easy, just need the format that Google uses.

Examples of accepted formats:

Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

Shutter, try these DDD numbers:  45.71789 (this is NORTH latitude, which may also be indicated by a "+" if Google requires it) and 122.75950 (this is WEST longitude, which may also be indicated by a "-" if Google requires it).

These numbers should work using the format you list above.


I tried several ways. I keep popping up in Korea?


Aha!  Cooper landed in Korea!  No wonder they didn't find him.

But, I put this in Google Maps, and it took me right to the Columbia:

45.71789  -122.75950
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 06:56:55 PM
I put a comma and a space between the numbers and wound up in Korea, I was lucky they didn't see me. no passport  ;D :D :)

actually it was China once I zoomed out....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 22, 2014, 11:26:12 PM
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 22, 2014, 11:48:36 PM
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.


Hmmm, so the plane would have to be about a quarter mile short of the Columbia for a "splash one" scenario? that is if the path is correct, and the timing is wrong with where he jumped. if he jumped around the Orchard area, he would of surely survived (if he pulled). it's basically flat. you would think a body would have been found easily in that area if he didn't pull. I've been flying around the area tonite scratching my head.

That money will drive you bonkers as much as the path  :'(
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 23, 2014, 12:21:33 AM
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.


Hmmm, so the plane would have to be about a quarter mile short of the Columbia for a "splash one" scenario? that is if the path is correct, and the timing is wrong with where he jumped. if he jumped around the Orchard area, he would of surely survived (if he pulled). it's basically flat. you would think a body would have been found easily in that area if he didn't pull. I've been flying around the area tonite scratching my head.

That money will drive you bonkers as much as the path  :'(

If Cooper or his loot went into the drink, the only place anyone has ever found any Cooper artifact is north of the north dredging spoils site (down stream of that site).

The placard was found  practically under the flight path.

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 23, 2014, 01:04:47 AM
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.

Just had a realisation - duhhh! 

If Tom's gps location for the find is accurate, based on Schreuder's 20 yard line grid keyed off the Ingram location, then it is indeed located many yards north of the spread zone for the north dredging pile pictured in the USGS photos.

We know Palmer dug his trench close to the Ingram find 'hole'. But, if Tom is right, there were never any dredging spoils there. Therefore, Palmer strata can contain "no dredge spoils strata" at all.

Tom is saying this stratum is bottom clay and is still visible today up on the bank behind the Ingram find.

I think this may be what Tom is trying to say?

This would imply Palmer never looked at the USGS 1974 dredging spoils photos or even talked to the dredging people or FBI about where the dredging debris had been dumped on T_Bar ???  Palmer had no idea where the dredge spoil sites were?  That is quite some error if true!

That still does not eliminate the chance the money came out of the dredging spoils and was washed and cover north of the north dredge spoil location ?

 





     
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 23, 2014, 01:16:08 AM
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Understood, but what would Cooper's forward motion be? distance wise. how much ground would he gain on the way down?

Have you tried the coords yet on Google?

See post 195, above.  But after separating from the airliner, Cooper would continue about 1250 feet down the flight track of the airplane until his forward motion (to the south) would have ceased with respect to the air mass.  The air mass would have carried him a few hundred feet to the northeast before he hit the ground.

If Cooper impacted at the money find location at Tina Bar, the net result of his movements after separating from the airliner would be about 1000 feet to the south and a few hundred feet to the east.  Working backwards from that, he would separate about 1000 feet north of Tina Bar and over the middle to western half of the Columbia River.


Hmmm, so the plane would have to be about a quarter mile short of the Columbia for a "splash one" scenario? that is if the path is correct, and the timing is wrong with where he jumped. if he jumped around the Orchard area, he would of surely survived (if he pulled). it's basically flat. you would think a body would have been found easily in that area if he didn't pull. I've been flying around the area tonite scratching my head.

That money will drive you bonkers as much as the path  :'(

If Cooper or his loot went into the drink, the only place anyone has ever found any Cooper artifact is north of the north dredging spoils site (down stream of that site).

The placard was found  practically under the flight path.

Let me try to reply to Shutter and Georger's comments at the same time.

For Cooper to make a direct no-pull impact at the point the money was found on Tina Bar, the airliner would have be flying almost straight south (true course) about the center of the Columbia River.  Remember that the river runs almost straight north and south at Tina Bar.

The exact location of the airliner with respect to the river depends on the winds aloft, which are not known precisely at this time.  If the winds aloft were zero all the way up to 10,000 feet, the airliner would have had to directly overfly Tina Bar and Cooper would have had to jump about 1250 feet almost straight north of the money find point.

Assuming the winds aloft at different altitudes were all from the southwest, then the stronger the winds, the further west the airliner would have had to be with respect to the money find point.  Additionally, the stronger the southwest winds aloft, the closer (in a north/south direction) Cooper would have had to be to the money find point when he jumped.

The placard find location, which was not under the actual flight path, indicated that the airliner was to the west of the V-23 centerline when it separated from the airliner.  And the winds aloft that were used in determining the separation point from the airliner involved assumptions.  In doing those calculations, I tried to be "conservative" in the sense that the airliner was at least the calculated distance west of the V-23 centerline but could have been some distance further west.

If the Seattle ATC transcripts become available, then new calculations can be done to determine the actual flight path, more accurate ground speeds, more accurate winds aloft, more accurate times and locations, etc..

And Georger is correct, to the best of my knowledge, in stating that nothing related to the airliner has been found south (upstream) of the Tina Bar money find location.  And also correct in stating that the money find location appears to be north (downstream) of the dredged materials.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on October 23, 2014, 01:37:05 PM
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Tom is saying this stratum is bottom clay and is still visible today up on the bank behind the Ingram find.

I think this may be what Tom is trying to say?

That's what I got out of it.  Long-existing naturally produced clay layer.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Dredging deposits 1974
Post by: hom on October 23, 2014, 04:30:31 PM
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The Oregon side location was probably selected (in part) because of proximity to the dredging location, which could have been up- or down-river from the part visible in the pic.

The Fazio deposits consisting of 91,100 cubic yards of fill came from between mile markers '96 plus 38 feet and river mile 97 plus 17 feet'.

Maybe the Oregon side deposit is close to this area?

The first attached image shows part of a topo map made initially in 1961 and updated in 1970.  It shows the part of the river where the dredging occurred--basically in the immediate vicinity of Tena Bar.  I added a scale and labels for the "river miles."

The '70 updates in purple show that Tena Bar had been considerably eaten away between '61 and '70.  Note also that shoreline had been much eaten away across the river and a bit downstream.  I think it highly probable that the spoils put on the Oregon side would have been placed there.  Whouldn't necessarily have been deposited the same as at Tena Bar.

The 2nd image is a combination of parts of the '70 and '74 aerial pix we've been dealing with.  Some considerable difference in the '70 and '74 Oregon shorelines is apparent especially on both the upstream and downstream sides of the downstream (north) thing that extends straight out from the shoreline.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - Dredging deposits 1974
Post by: georger on October 24, 2014, 02:35:57 AM
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The Oregon side location was probably selected (in part) because of proximity to the dredging location, which could have been up- or down-river from the part visible in the pic.

The Fazio deposits consisting of 91,100 cubic yards of fill came from between mile markers '96 plus 38 feet and river mile 97 plus 17 feet'.

Maybe the Oregon side deposit is close to this area?

The first attached image shows part of a topo map made initially in 1961 and updated in 1970.  It shows the part of the river where the dredging occurred--basically in the immediate vicinity of Tena Bar.  I added a scale and labels for the "river miles."

The '70 updates in purple show that Tena Bar had been considerably eaten away between '61 and '70.  Note also that shoreline had been much eaten away across the river and a bit downstream.  I think it highly probable that the spoils put on the Oregon side would have been placed there.  Whouldn't necessarily have been deposited the same as at Tena Bar.

The 2nd image is a combination of parts of the '70 and '74 aerial pix we've been dealing with.  Some considerable difference in the '70 and '74 Oregon shorelines is apparent especially on both the upstream and downstream sides of the downstream (north) thing that extends straight out from the shoreline.

Hom, can you send me full size versions of these images. I have a lot of bandwidth here so size is no real issue as long as they dont go over 500mb each ?  RM96-97 is correct as per your image.

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 25, 2014, 08:01:19 PM
I replaced the last photo on the montage from Citizensleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

Correction made due to a member pointing out my error.....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on October 25, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
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I replaced the last photo on the montage from Websleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

You don't really mean websleuths, do you?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 25, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
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I replaced the last photo on the montage from Websleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

You don't really mean websleuths, do you?


You got me  8)

I meant Citizensleuths photo. I will go to my original post and change it. I always think of Websleuths when talking about Kayes site. I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 26, 2014, 12:19:09 AM
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I replaced the last photo on the montage from Websleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

You don't really mean websleuths, do you?


You got me  8)

I meant Citizensleuths photo. I will go to my original post and change it. I always think of Websleuths when talking about Kayes site. I stand corrected.

Shutter, I don't think that the red line you mention is actually a drainage ditch.  On the picture it appears to just be a grassless path or the top of a dirt mound (levee).

The only drainage ditch that I have seen on the Fazio's property is on the north side of, and probably less than 10 feet from, the driveway that leads into the Fazio property where the buildings are located (and north of their sand operation).  The ditch crosses under the North West Lower River Road through a pipe that is only about two feet in diameter.

It is probably unusual to have any water flowing through that pipe (I have never seen an indication of any), but I think the flow would be from the east side to the west side of the road and onto the Fazio property.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on October 26, 2014, 12:39:15 AM
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I replaced the last photo on the montage from Websleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

You don't really mean websleuths, do you?


You got me  8)

I meant Citizensleuths photo. I will go to my original post and change it. I always think of Websleuths when talking about Kayes site. I stand corrected.

Shutter, I don't think that the red line you mention is actually a drainage ditch.  On the picture it appears to just be a grassless path or the top of a dirt mound (levee).

The only drainage ditch that I have seen on the Fazio's property is on the north side of, and probably less than 10 feet from, the driveway that leads into the Fazio property where the buildings are located (and north of their sand operation).  The ditch crosses under the North West Lower River Road through a pipe that is only about two feet in diameter.

It is probably unusual to have any water flowing through that pipe (I have never seen an indication of any), but I think the flow would be from the east side to the west side of the road and onto the Fazio property.

I wasn't sure, but the line can be used to follow the other pics. does the spot appear to be correct with Googles plot?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on October 26, 2014, 01:05:19 AM
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I replaced the last photo on the montage from Websleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

You don't really mean websleuths, do you?


You got me  8)

I meant Citizensleuths photo. I will go to my original post and change it. I always think of Websleuths when talking about Kayes site. I stand corrected.

Shutter, I don't think that the red line you mention is actually a drainage ditch.  On the picture it appears to just be a grassless path or the top of a dirt mound (levee).

The only drainage ditch that I have seen on the Fazio's property is on the north side of, and probably less than 10 feet from, the driveway that leads into the Fazio property where the buildings are located (and north of their sand operation).  The ditch crosses under the North West Lower River Road through a pipe that is only about two feet in diameter.

It is probably unusual to have any water flowing through that pipe (I have never seen an indication of any), but I think the flow would be from the east side to the west side of the road and onto the Fazio property.

I wasn't sure, but the line can be used to follow the other pics. does the spot appear to be correct with Googles plot?

The money location seems to be reasonably correct.

UNRELATED COMPUTER PROBLEM:  At the moment I am having some problems downloading files but I did have a good view of those maps earlier this evening.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on October 26, 2014, 02:31:53 AM
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I replaced the last photo on the montage from Websleuths. the changed photo is on the right. the coords are where Google has placed them. how accurate they are is anyone's guess. the red line is the drainage ditch, or what I thought it was?

You don't really mean websleuths, do you?


You got me  8)

I meant Citizensleuths photo. I will go to my original post and change it. I always think of Websleuths when talking about Kayes site. I stand corrected.

Shutter, I don't think that the red line you mention is actually a drainage ditch.  On the picture it appears to just be a grassless path or the top of a dirt mound (levee).

The only drainage ditch that I have seen on the Fazio's property is on the north side of, and probably less than 10 feet from, the driveway that leads into the Fazio property where the buildings are located (and north of their sand operation).  The ditch crosses under the North West Lower River Road through a pipe that is only about two feet in diameter.

It is probably unusual to have any water flowing through that pipe (I have never seen an indication of any), but I think the flow would be from the east side to the west side of the road and onto the Fazio property.

There is a retention ditch here, on this photo. Fazio confirmed that. Forget when it went in but it was a pollution requirement at some point - between pink markers > and <. It's directly behind where the money was supposedly found. The USGS photos 1970-1979 don't seem to show it ?? 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - hole dug 1979 usgs photo ?
Post by: georger on October 31, 2014, 12:09:08 AM
Who was digging the hole and why, in the middle of the old north dredge pile just south of the money find, captured by the USGS 9-29-79 5 months before the Ingram money find? Did a meteor strike Tina Bar?   ;D

 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - hole dug 1979 usgs photo ?
Post by: Robert99 on October 31, 2014, 02:48:18 AM
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Who was digging the hole and why, in the middle of the old north dredge pile just south of the money find, captured by the USGS 9-29-79 5 months before the Ingram money find? Did a meteor strike Tina Bar?   ;D

The arrow seems to be pointing to a structure.  Based on its white roof and shadow, it could be a ramada type tent used by the local fishermen or sand trampers.  But take a look at those three "dots" on the water line just south of the "$" sign.  They appear to be holes since no structure is evident.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - hole dug 1979 usgs photo ?
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2014, 10:33:23 PM
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Who was digging the hole and why, in the middle of the old north dredge pile just south of the money find, captured by the USGS 9-29-79 5 months before the Ingram money find? Did a meteor strike Tina Bar?   ;D

The arrow seems to be pointing to a structure.  Based on its white roof and shadow, it could be a ramada type tent used by the local fishermen or sand trampers.  But take a look at those three "dots" on the water line just south of the "$" sign.  They appear to be holes since no structure is evident.


Those would have to be pretty big holes to show up from the distance of the satellite, I think it's a mile up?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
I took the photo and zoomed in on it and used a mask generator and found what appears to be transparent grid paper overlapping the map? the dark spot in the circle is art of the grid.

The center portion where the grid corners are, or holes seem to be the same color as the circle. could the person who made the circle also dotted the position of the money find that people have claimed was close to the river? I took the portion where it appears a mark was made and put it beside the penciled circle mark is and it matched?

Who circled the map?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - hole dug 1979 usgs photo ?
Post by: Robert99 on November 02, 2014, 12:06:52 AM
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Who was digging the hole and why, in the middle of the old north dredge pile just south of the money find, captured by the USGS 9-29-79 5 months before the Ingram money find? Did a meteor strike Tina Bar?   ;D

The arrow seems to be pointing to a structure.  Based on its white roof and shadow, it could be a ramada type tent used by the local fishermen or sand trampers.  But take a look at those three "dots" on the water line just south of the "$" sign.  They appear to be holes since no structure is evident.


Those would have to be pretty big holes to show up from the distance of the satellite, I think it's a mile up?

The 1970s series of pictures we have been looking at here were probably made from aircraft that were flying only a mile or two above the surface and using some relatively high end mapping cameras.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find - hole dug 1979 usgs photo ?
Post by: georger on November 02, 2014, 12:46:40 AM
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Who was digging the hole and why, in the middle of the old north dredge pile just south of the money find, captured by the USGS 9-29-79 5 months before the Ingram money find? Did a meteor strike Tina Bar?   ;D

The arrow seems to be pointing to a structure.  Based on its white roof and shadow, it could be a ramada type tent used by the local fishermen or sand trampers.  But take a look at those three "dots" on the water line just south of the "$" sign.  They appear to be holes since no structure is evident.


Those would have to be pretty big holes to show up from the distance of the satellite, I think it's a mile up?

Those usgs images are aerial not satellite.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 02, 2014, 12:47:14 AM
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I took the photo and zoomed in on it and used a mask generator and found what appears to be transparent grid paper overlapping the map? the dark spot in the circle is art of the grid.

The center portion where the grid corners are, or holes seem to be the same color as the circle. could the person who made the circle also dotted the position of the money find that people have claimed was close to the river? I took the portion where it appears a mark was made and put it beside the penciled circle mark is and it matched?

Who circled the map?

Took what photo and zoomed it?

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 02, 2014, 01:06:05 AM
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I took the photo and zoomed in on it and used a mask generator and found what appears to be transparent grid paper overlapping the map? the dark spot in the circle is art of the grid.

The center portion where the grid corners are, or holes seem to be the same color as the circle. could the person who made the circle also dotted the position of the money find that people have claimed was close to the river? I took the portion where it appears a mark was made and put it beside the penciled circle mark is and it matched?

Who circled the map?

Took what photo and zoomed it?

I guess I should have noted that. that's a close up of Tena Bar where the money location is circled on the 1979 view/photo
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 19, 2014, 03:53:14 PM
The usual story about how Brian and the Ingrams found the money, may be wrong -

A review of combined press and FBI agent accounts of Brian and Harold Ingram's initial statements of how the Ingram find occurred, is yielding a different version of how the Ingram find happened, in the Ingram's own words, with some important implications for what the actual scene was at Tena Bar when Cooper money was found there.
The usual account is that Brian was sweeping out a depression for a fire pit in the sand, encountered an obstacle and uncovered it, thus revealing bundles of Cooper bills. That version may be myth.

The actual statements of Brian, Harold, and each party present at the time agree in that Harold had suggested building a fire for everyone to warm up with, and Harold began collecting drift wood nearby to where the children (Brian and Denise Ingram) were playing. Patricia and Crystal Ingram were walking together at a further distance away discussing personal matters. It is not apparent that Harold had made any request to have a fire pit made. The children in fact (Brian and Denise), were playing together and simply dropped down and began playing in the sand.

 Brian says:  "I saw that money (poking out). I thought WOWIE! I saw it was money and ran over to my parents. They thought it was counterfeit.  

 Harold Ingram says: I was wanting to make a fire. (starting to collect wood) He (Brian) ran up to me and said "Wait a minute Daddy. I have found some money." I went over to where Brian was and raked a place out in the sand where it was.

Both Brian and Harold repeat these same elements in their earliest version of their story given to FBI agents and in the initial press interviews, eg. Bob Baum Wed Feb 13 Eugene Register-Guard. Crystal Ingram recounts the same  story of what Brian and her daughter Denise were doing, what Harold was doing and where, and what happened after Brian ran over to get his Dad who then went over to where Denise was still waiting, and it was Harold who wiped sand away, not Brian, which revealed more of the money Brian had seen.

The important forensic point is Brian saw "money" before any uncovering or digging had been done. The money was visible on the surface and that is what caught Brian's attention. It was Harold, not Brian, who then came over and uncovered the money, and called Patricia and Crystal Ingram to come and see.

This agrees with what the FBI agents who first canvassed the scene at Tena Bar said:  that fragments of money were visible right on the surface ... which is what caused the agents to back up and devise a plan, which lead to these agents laying out a grid for the formal examination of the scene at Tena Bar.

With some luck, I and others now rehashing this story will present more as time goes on.

 :)


 

 



   

   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 19, 2014, 04:16:59 PM
Excellent post!

Even these statements counter any plant. why would fragments be around a plant. it still raises many questions.

1) If the dredge had something to do with it could the money have lasted that long.
2) What was the time frame of the flood in 78, 79. the month?
3) Why plant the money right on the surface, or even in that area?
4) Would fragments around the bundle be consistent with water levels lowering?

Snow found an article that claims a cannon ball went through the dredge. I'll post it later.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 19, 2014, 04:30:33 PM
I've always been pretty confident money could get through the dredge, but the time frame is the killer. here is the article about the cannon ball.

Note: 1 fathom of chain is 6 feet!
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 20, 2014, 12:38:10 AM
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I've always been pretty confident money could get through the dredge, but the time frame is the killer. here is the article about the cannon ball.

Note: 1 fathom of chain is 6 feet!

Snowmman did some searches on what can and cannot, pass through different types of dredges (pipes). I think it's fair to say Snow was of the opinion based on his research, that some money could have been sucked through the system of the dredge used at Tina Bar and survived to be spread both sides of each debris hump.

Tom and the FBI however, and this is important, focused in on statements made by the dredging company operator who stated that objects as large as a money bag, or lose bills themselves, could not  havre passed through the particular dredge machine used at Tina Bar.

I suppose the only way to solve this would be to test it!?

Let me reserve the rest until later.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 20, 2014, 01:22:58 AM
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Excellent post!

Even these statements counter any plant. why would fragments be around a plant. it still raises many questions.

1) If the dredge had something to do with it could the money have lasted that long.
2) What was the time frame of the flood in 78, 79. the month?
3) Why plant the money right on the surface, or even in that area?
4) Would fragments around the bundle be consistent with water levels lowering?

Snow found an article that claims a cannon ball went through the dredge. I'll post it later.

Frankly Dave, as I work this problem I'm not even concerned with "plant" vs natural means, etc. My concern is the evidence, facts, actual statements made and their meaning, ....... and conclusions-opinions can follow.

1- Could the single fragments have lasted that long, say from '74 until Feb of 1980. In a bacteria and oxygen free environment, theoretically yes. But that requires depth. The closer things get to the surface where oxygen, active bacteria, and higher seasonal temps are more available - the answer is no. Palmer then claimed that the upper active layer of sand is generally sterile; if true that suggests once fragments make it to the surface (say by erosion) they tend to be preserved then dry, weather, and falls apart as dust ... ? Keep in mind, everyone agrees that when the Ingrams found their money it was "soggy" to "wet". Both words are used in the several descriptions.

Now. Three agents swear that when A2 and A3 were digging a trench about 2o yards south of the Ingram find, intending to go to a 3-4 foot depth, they had no more than brought the first shovel of material up and dumped it, than they saw a 'fist-sized clump of what looked like wadded up decomposed money, a ball of rotted bills', which they called everyone's attention to, and it was bagged to be sent off for analysis. (This is before Palmer had arrived). This suggests that perhaps some of the money which was at Tina Bar had fully decomposed, in contrast to the Ingram bills found higher up in elevation and in the upper active sand layers vs. other money which was perhaps at a lower depth and closer to the water line?

I will have a lot more to say about this later because in fact agents were not proceeding blindly prior to Palmer;s arrival, they had a grid and were making a map, and keeping notes of things being found and placed into evidence bags - they literally ran out of evidence bags and called to be resupplied.     

2- one of the worst droughts in decades took hold by August of 1976 and lasted through all of 1977 finally breaking in January of 1978 with record flooding in some areas (Washougal flooding cited by Palmer). That was followed by more normal water level cycles through 1979 with a mini-flood in January of 1980 just before the money is found in February.

4- Would fragments around the bundles be consistent with water levels lowering (and changing)? A lot of people including Brian are of the opinion that the Ingram bundles are the source of any and all fragments found, no matter the location north or south of the Ingram find. The agents claim they found and mapped a debris field with definite limits running mainly south of the Ingram find, generally in a 4 to 6foot wide swath, with nothing beyond those boundaries and very few fragments north of the Ingram find. The normal inclination, imo, would be to classify the Ingram find as 'part' of the debris field ... like the head of a comet?"
 
 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 20, 2014, 05:24:07 PM
I'm going to email Kaye, but it appears that he only "speculates" the money had human intervention. I don't know what his exact words were in the book, but you must go by his website IMHO.

'we can speculate that he must have had some human interaction that could have eventually led to the money being buried on Tena Bar. How the Cooper bundles came to be buried where they were remains as big a mystery as who D.B. Cooper was."

I realize most of us don't believe in the plant theory, but I would like to have record of the event on here for people to see.

One thing I did notice was there seems to be a path leading from the road to the beach where the money was found. it appears to be the only obscure path in the area. just a thought? R99 pointed that out to me when I thought it was a drainage ditch.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 20, 2014, 10:20:54 PM
I talked with Brian Ingram directly at the 2011 Symposium about what he found at Tina Bar in 1980.  He said that after finding the money he and his family went looking for more money all over the beach and found none.

Brian told me they scoured the tide line and dug all over the place and didn't find a thing.

If my memory serves me, Brian also confirmed that he found the money under an inch or two of sand. It's raining, dark and cold, and I don't feel like digging in my storage area for my Tina Bar/Brian notes.

BTW:Can we please call the money beach Tina Bar? That's what the sign says at the beach gate, and I strongly feel that the use of the term "Tena Bar" is misleading and provocative, obscuring the possible relationship between the find and the fact of Tina Mucklow living about 20 miles away at the time of the money find.

As for FBI agents and what they saw/remember, etc, that is highly problematic.

Mike McPheters told me he was digging on the tide line with other agents and that he found a dozen or so shards at a depth of 1-2 feet.

Dorwin Schroeder told me that they found "thousands of shards" at all depths to three feet in an area radiating twenty yards from Brian's find.  Dorwin also told me that they found parts of DB Cooper's briefcase.

Carol Abracadabra told me that she found no evidence of the shards in the evidence box at Seattle when the Citizen Sleuths were doing their thing in 2010-2011. Nor did she find any documentation on the shards, their location, number, and any assessment of the find.

I've asked Ralph Himms by mail how he documented the money find, what it disclosed, and where that documentation is currently. Ralph declined to answer my request. However, Jerry Thomas called me several weeks later to say that Ralph had told him that the shards and documentation was sent to Seattle.

Galen says that Himms didn't do that immediately after the find, but delayed for some time.  Galen says that Seattle FO found out about the money find when they read about it in the Seattle Times.

I asked John Detlor, who was on the Norjak team at Seattle FO at the time and he said that they knew of the find in a timely fashion and that in fact agents from the Vancouver, WA satellite office participated in the dig at Tina Bar.

The Norjak case agent at the time of the money find, Ron Nichols, would appear to be a central figure in this discussion and be able to clarify many of these discrepancies. However, Nichols steadfastly declines to talk with me. I did talk with his neighbors in northern Seattle and was able to ascertain that Ron and his wife spend the winters down in southern California, hence explaining why Ron didn't answer the door when I knocked.

As for John Detlor, even though he is the primary author of the history of the FBI, he has declined to discuss this aspect of Norjak with me in any substantive manner.

This what I know of the money find. 

Georger, perhaps you could give me the names of the three FBI agents you talked with who said that they found a tangled, soggy ball of money. I would love to follow-up with them.

Nevertheless, the salient evidence that I have at this point is that the three bundles were found and everything else is speculative. I give great weight to Brian's statements in 2011 that there was no other money other than his three bundles to be found at Tina Bar in February 1980.

As a result, it begs the question: is the FBI lying? If not, then where is the documentation of what they found and the shards? Remember, the political pressure on the FBI to obfuscate Norjak may be great.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 20, 2014, 10:29:29 PM
Mr. Shutter:

"...One thing I did notice was there seems to be a path leading from the road to the beach where the money was found. it appears to be the only obscure path in the area. just a thought? R99 pointed that out to me when I thought it was a drainage ditch...."

Prince Bruce:

What obscure trail?  The dirt road from the Fazio's leads right to Tina Bar. I drove right to the beach. parked at the gate next to the Tina Bar sign and walked down the embankment to the spot that Al and Richard indicated was the spot where Brian found the money.

Then I went for a swim.  It was 103 degrees.  Current was pretty swift. 10 knots or so. Water was refreshing, though. Gal in a bikini did a lot of bending over the gunnels of her boat as she drifted by....
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 20, 2014, 10:36:54 PM
The Trail/dirt road seems to be away from other activity on T-bar. nothing more to be read into it really...

Quote
As a result, it begs the question: is the FBI lying? If not, then where is the documentation of what they found and the shards? Remember, the political pressure on the FBI to obfuscate Norjak may be great.

Seems to be more reason to see what Georger has?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 21, 2014, 01:31:59 AM
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I talked with Brian Ingram directly at the 2011 Symposium about what he found at Tina Bar in 1980.  He said that after finding the money he and his family went looking for more money all over the beach and found none.

Brian told me they scoured the tide line and dug all over the place and didn't find a thing.

If my memory serves me, Brian also confirmed that he found the money under an inch or two of sand. It's raining, dark and cold, and I don't feel like digging in my storage area for my Tina Bar/Brian notes.

There is nothing in the FBI notes that indicate the Ingrams did any further searching, although it wouldn't surprise me if they did. Their primary motivation after finding the money was financial - that is very clear and documented. One problem the FBI had giving them a reward was all previous rewards had expired. That included a reward NWA had offered. The money found belonged to either NWA (via  loan they incurred) or the insurance company Globe Ins.

On the issue of Brian's recollections, I don't know who or what to believe. I think the best authority on the Ingram's find may be Brian's mother and last I knew she is still alive but all questions to her have to go through Brian. The Ingrams are selective with who they will interact with.

BTW:Can we please call the money beach Tina Bar? That's what the sign says at the beach gate, and I strongly feel that the use of the term "Tena Bar" is misleading and provocative, obscuring the possible relationship between the find and the fact of Tina Mucklow living about 20 miles away at the time of the money find.

As for FBI agents and what they saw/remember, etc, that is highly problematic.

Mike McPheters told me he was digging on the tide line with other agents and that he found a dozen or so shards at a depth of 1-2 feet.

Dorwin Schroeder told me that they found "thousands of shards" at all depths to three feet in an area radiating twenty yards from Brian's find.  Dorwin also told me that they found parts of DB Cooper's briefcase.

Carol Abracadabra told me that she found no evidence of the shards in the evidence box at Seattle when the Citizen Sleuths were doing their thing in 2010-2011. Nor did she find any documentation on the shards, their location, number, and any assessment of the find.

I've asked Ralph Himms by mail how he documented the money find, what it disclosed, and where that documentation is currently. Ralph declined to answer my request. However, Jerry Thomas called me several weeks later to say that Ralph had told him that the shards and documentation was sent to Seattle.

Galen says that Himms didn't do that immediately after the find, but delayed for some time.  Galen says that Seattle FO found out about the money find when they read about it in the Seattle Times.

That is nonsense! The Seattle office, the agent at Vancouver, as well as others in law enforcement were notified almost immediately. I have direct confirmation on that from several sources. One of the first concerns was securing the site which included the road to the Fazio's. which was closed by LE almost immediately after meeting with the Ingrams at 9:30 Tuesday morning the 12th. The issue was who should it, a Deputy or an FBI agent ... people were very busy including several agents in Court, and finally mid-morning one FBI agent was pulled off his duty and sent to close the road to the Fazio's ... other agents and personnel were in action before noon...

I asked John Detlor, who was on the Norjak team at Seattle FO at the time and he said that they knew of the find in a timely fashion and that in fact agents from the Vancouver, WA satellite office participated in the dig at Tina Bar.

That is correct. I think they had already been put in the loop on February 11th after the first serial numbers had been called in and checked, before the meeting with the Ingrams the next day. Likewise other offices... FBI offices don't sit in limbo specially unconnected to Washington who then can advise appropriate parties elsewhere! Did Portland advise Vancouver and Seattle quickly? Yes.

The Norjak case agent at the time of the money find, Ron Nichols, would appear to be a central figure in this discussion and be able to clarify many of these discrepancies. However, Nichols steadfastly declines to talk with me. I did talk with his neighbors in northern Seattle and was able to ascertain that Ron and his wife spend the winters down in southern California, hence explaining why Ron didn't answer the door when I knocked.

As for John Detlor, even though he is the primary author of the history of the FBI, he has declined to discuss this aspect of Norjak with me in any substantive manner.

This what I know of the money find. 

Georger, perhaps you could give me the names of the three FBI agents you talked with who said that they found a tangled, soggy ball of money. I would love to follow-up with them.

Nevertheless, the salient evidence that I have at this point is that the three bundles were found and everything else is speculative. I give great weight to Brian's statements in 2011 that there was no other money other than his three bundles to be found at Tina Bar in February 1980.

I have never been told by an FBI agent that part of a briefcase was found. I have been told by agents there was a 'rumor of part of briefcase being found' but that rumor is attributed to press questions posed at the time, not to any agent saying this. Reporters were asking all kinds of questions and asking if particular items had been found in addition to money, especially as the excavation unfolded with 25+ agents/etc digging etc... 

Bruce you always push the conspiracy angle suggesting impure thoughts and acts on the FBI's part, as if all FBI offices and agencies are some monolithic beast acting out commands given by Magog, who resides in the larger Maldum Fornax, whatever in hell that is!.  :) The fact is, the Ingram find caught everyone by surprise. The looming question was 'where is Cooper and what happened to him', and the money became almost secondary at times to thought and concern over the larger question of Cooper himself and his fate. Had everyone been wrong and Cooper actually landed somehow in the Columbia then was swept down stream in his parachute then snagged on a wing dam and now his money is coming up with bottom dredging sediments taken in 1974? Answering that question is one reason Palmer was brought in (a high power geologist with impeccable credentials to judge the matter).  The issue of fragments probably became secondary.


As a result, it begs the question: is the FBI lying? If not, then where is the documentation of what they found and the shards? Remember, the political pressure on the FBI to obfuscate Norjak may be great.

my answers above in bold print.

In addition, we know that the bills the Ingrams turned in, in two segments on two different days, went by separate routes to Washington and then to Quantico in some fashion, with separate lab reports issued for the examination of each shipment. One rumor is the fragments and their bags also went to Washington by a third shipment, but those I have asked are unaware of any lab reports issued on the fragments, if they went on to Quantico for analysis also.

At some point the Court divided the bills between Globe Ins., the FBI, and Ingram. There is no mention of the Court doing anything with 'the fragments' if they existed as a separate body of property-evidence. Ingram was given his bills through Tosaw, the insurance company their bills, and the FBI kept it's assigned bills three of which are the bills Larry eventually sent Tom for analysis. Once again fragments are not mentioned in the inventory of property evidence. At length, Tom and Carol were handed a small envelope of "dust" and told here are the fragments! One agent has suggested tome that that envelope Tom and Carol were given contains nothing more than the dust from the original evidence folders each of the Ingram bills and bill-portions were kept in after the Ingram find, and has nothing to do with the socalled "fragments" Schreuder and others maintain they excavated from Tina Bar - and if that is true it is hilarious!  ;) ;) ;) ;)  I mean easy come-easy go! This whole thing gets more convoluted and inscrutable with each passing minute. Only Saint Peter could keep track of the comings and goings and who went where, how, and when, in the Labyrinth of Human Affairs.   ::)       

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 21, 2014, 03:18:24 AM
Thanks for your considerable reply, G.

A couple things:

1.  Any way I could communicate with the agents you mentioned a couple posts back? I'd like to hear more about the soggy bundle.

2. Conspiracy theories:

Well I agree with you - I sure see a lot of them, but I don't think I am distorting anything factual, and I am certainly not making anything up.  The critical issue is how to interpret the facts. To give the FBI a free ride in the Norjak case and accept everything they say as 100% truthful is not justified in my opinion.  There are just too many egos and images at risk due to inconsistencies and sloppy police work. Plus the potential exists for real, external pressure upon the Bureau to keep mum, such as might be the case if DB Cooper was SF, Delta Force, Seal Team Six or such. Such dynamics can not be discounted even when one loves the FBI, America, Apple Pie, etc....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 21, 2014, 01:39:58 PM
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Thanks for your considerable reply, G.

A couple things:

1.  Any way I could communicate with the agents you mentioned a couple posts back? I'd like to hear more about the soggy bundle.

2. Conspiracy theories:

Well I agree with you - I sure see a lot of them, but I don't think I am distorting anything factual, and I am certainly not making anything up.  The critical issue is how to interpret the facts. To give the FBI a free ride in the Norjak case and accept everything they say as 100% truthful is not justified in my opinion.  There are just too many egos and images at risk due to inconsistencies and sloppy police work. Plus the potential exists for real, external pressure upon the Bureau to keep mum, such as might be the case if DB Cooper was SF, Delta Force, Seal Team Six or such. Such dynamics can not be discounted even when one loves the FBI, America, Apple Pie, etc....

I can provide this much -
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 21, 2014, 03:47:00 PM
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Thanks for your considerable reply, G.

A couple things:

1.  Any way I could communicate with the agents you mentioned a couple posts back? I'd like to hear more about the soggy bundle.

2. Conspiracy theories:

Well I agree with you - I sure see a lot of them, but I don't think I am distorting anything factual, and I am certainly not making anything up.  The critical issue is how to interpret the facts. To give the FBI a free ride in the Norjak case and accept everything they say as 100% truthful is not justified in my opinion.  There are just too many egos and images at risk due to inconsistencies and sloppy police work. Plus the potential exists for real, external pressure upon the Bureau to keep mum, such as might be the case if DB Cooper was SF, Delta Force, Seal Team Six or such. Such dynamics can not be discounted even when one loves the FBI, America, Apple Pie, etc....

How can you quote the FBI in certain points if you don't trust them? the things I'm reading could be considered a cover up, but also could be ignorance to some extent. much like some of the suspects we are now getting two stories for one! what reporter got this article completely wrong?

This is a similar path the FBI took while investigating the escape from Alcatraz. they concluded they all drown, no raft was found, and no crimes were committed the following day. the turned the case over to the US Marshal's in the late 70's. the current Marshal does the investigating on the side. he found two reports that conflict with the FBI's original statements.

1) Police report indicated a raft was found on Angel Island with foot prints leading away.
2) Police report was filed the next day claiming 3 individual 's stole a car.

I can see the FBI trying to cover up Alcatraz. it was suppose to be escape proof. lots of pressure was probably put on them. Cooper? I don't really see any reason to cover anything up. money all over the place could easily help them prove he didn't survive.  Alcatraz was owned by the very people who pay there checks. it was a Federal institution. Cooper was some guy with a wild idea. admission could be the sole reason for a cover up?

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 21, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
In general, I believe everybody until they prove themselves to be wholly unreliable. However, I hold everything in abeyance, with a pinch of salt always nearby. I call it living (and writing) in the "in-between," a place where someone in authority says something, but it is inconsistent with other findings. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong. Both may be in error, or both partially correct. The key is assessing the totality of the evidence.

In that I find the FBI to be very suspect. Their inconsistencies, lost evidence, and sloppy documentation continues to intensify the more we poke into the depths of Norjak. Is the FBI lying? I don't know. I'm just pointing out the possibilities.

The fact that a lot of FBI agents dodge me or spin their story is a major red flag to me. Why would Lee Dormuth tell me that he "wants nothing to do with it," meaning his sister-in-law Tina Mucklow and Norjak, yet he reads Tina's mail. Plus, his wife chats with Jo at length? Wassup wid dat?

They don't even do the simple stuff, like attending the symposia. Why doesn't Curtis Eng simply give me a call and say: "Here's the story, now cut the crap about cover-ups." ?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 21, 2014, 04:20:44 PM
Fair enough response. no matter how you look at "Tina Bar". something is wrong. I just don't believe someone planted the money. if you wish to prove you are alive and well send one of the twenties? why take a chance it gets buried for good? throw off the trail. what trail?

Lets see what else floats in with this story in the future... 8)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 21, 2014, 06:21:12 PM
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In general, I believe everybody until they prove themselves to be wholly unreliable. However, I hold everything in abeyance, with a pinch of salt always nearby. I call it living (and writing) in the "in-between," a place where someone is authority says something, but it is inconsistent with other findings. That doesn't make one right and the other wrong. Both may be in error, or both partially correct. The key is assessing the totality of the evidence.

In that I find the FBI to be very suspect. Their inconsistencies, lost evidence, and sloppy documentation continues to intensify the more we poke into the depths of Norjak. Is the FBI lying? I don't know. I'm just pointing out the possibilities.

The fact that a lot of FBI agents dodge me or spin their story is a major red flag to me. Why would Lee Dormuth tell me that he "wants nothing to do with it," meaning his sister-in-law Tina Mucklow and Norjak, yet he reads Tina's mail. Plus, his wife chats with Jo at length? Wassup wid dat?

They don't even do the simple stuff, like attending the symposia. Why doesn't Curtis Eng simply give me a call and say: "Here's the story, now cut the crap about cover-ups." ?

You want clarity on the one hand then murky conspiracy titillation on the other. That's a strange mix to reconcile.     

When the well gets poisoned people are reluctant to drink from it. And some are prohibited to drink from it!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 21, 2014, 08:46:32 PM
I don't see my attempts at clarity AND voicing the possibility of a cover-up as mutually exclusive, G. But it seems that you do.  How come?

Norjak is not a tidy case.  Lots of slop and goop.  Whadda ya gonna do? Me, I just put on my muck boots and stomp around to see what I can find.

Yes, I do agree that I have a certain degree of "poisoned well" issues with interviewees. But it begs the question: Why are so many G-men scaredy cats?  Why don't they just tell me what they know, answer my follow-up questions, and be done with the duck and cover routine? Really, what is their problem?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 21, 2014, 08:49:09 PM
Can I get an "Amen" on using Tina Bar and putting to rest the use of Tena Bar?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 21, 2014, 11:59:26 PM
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I don't see my attempts at clarity AND voicing the possibility of a cover-up as mutually exclusive, G. But it seems that you do.  How come?

Norjak is not a tidy case.  Lots of slop and goop.  Whadda ya gonna do? Me, I just put on my muck boots and stomp around to see what I can find.

Yes, I do agree that I have a certain degree of "poisoned well" issues with interviewees. But it begs the question: Why are so many G-men scaredy cats?  Why don't they just tell me what they know, answer my follow-up questions, and be done with the duck and cover routine? Really, what is their problem?

I have no answer for this. 

   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 22, 2014, 02:01:51 AM
How about a comment, a thought, an opinion?

What do you think is going on at the Bureau regarding Norjak?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 22, 2014, 02:49:20 AM
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How about a comment, a thought, an opinion?

What do you think is going on at the Bureau regarding Norjak?

I have no idea - maybe it's something the maintenance guy can fix ?   :)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 01:26:53 PM
                                                                            The Money Find

It's my opinion the money was not planted near the Columbia river. the following comment is from the lab where the money was tested.

"The only thing in the lab report was that the money was consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia."

"consistent with being submerged" now, if the bag was secured tight from Cooper for the jump most of the money would indeed become compressed, and probably protected in the bag to a certain extent. so, it's not really the case of "how did three bundles arrive on the beach together" the evidence shows it's part of the compressed block of money that was in the bag for several years prior to the D-Day landing  ;D

The FBI has a time frame that is getting mighty close to the Columbia river as time has past with new evidence coming into view about the "pressure bump" if we have just a minute or so in error with the time frame of the flight it's possible Cooper went fishing. the odds were extremely high in the past for not having a water landing, evidence suggests other wise.

1) Time frame issues with the flight path.
2) Two versions where the plane was by the pilot & co-pilot.
3) Time frame issues with the jump time that slowly gets closer to the Columbia river.
4) Money found down stream from the known flight path.
5) High water levels could have deposited the money.
6) The dredging operation could have deposited the money.

In my opinion these factors can not be over looked on how it's a mystery where DB Cooper is located?

As I mentioned before, I want to have records showing a plant is not the best option to look at. several people push this idea that could give people the only logical way it arrived on T-Bar. it just doesn't appear that way to me?

Added: The money was still in it's original order when the FBI packed the bag. some 5+ years later and Cooper hasn't touch some, or any of the money? doubtful. I've said it in the past, why not send a 20 to the FBI if one wishes to prove they made it? why take a chance it would get washed out into the Columbia and never seen?

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 22, 2014, 11:24:35 PM
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                                                                                                 The Money Find

It's my opinion the money was not planted near the Columbia river. the following comment is from the lab where the money was tested.

"The only thing in the lab report was that the money was consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia."

"consistent with being submerged" now, if the bag was secured tight from Cooper for the jump most of the money would indeed become compressed, and probably protected in the bag to a certain extent. so, it's not really the case of "how did three bundles arrive on the beach together" the evidence shows it's part of the compressed block of money that was in the bag for several years prior to the D-Day landing  ;D

The FBI has a time frame that is getting mighty close to the Columbia river as time has past with new evidence coming into view about the "pressure bump" if we have just a minute or so in error with the time frame of the flight it's possible Cooper went fishing. the odds were extremely high in the past for not having a water landing, evidence suggests other wise.

1) Time frame issues with the flight path.
2) Two versions where the plane was by the pilot & co-pilot.
3) Time frame issues with the jump time that slowly gets closer to the Columbia river.
4) Money found down stream from the known flight path.
5) High water levels could have deposited the money.
6) The dredging operation could have deposited the money.

In my opinion these factors can not be over looked on how it's a mystery where DB Cooper is located?

As I mentioned before, I want to have records showing a plant is not the best option to look at. several people push this idea that could give people the only logical way it arrived on T-Bar. it just doesn't appear that way to me?

Added: The money was still in it's original order when the FBI packed the bag. some 5+ years later and Cooper hasn't touch some, or any of the money? doubtful. I've said it in the past, why not send a 20 to the FBI if one wishes to prove they made it? why take a chance it would get washed out into the Columbia and never seen?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 22, 2014, 11:29:54 PM
I don't follow. why did you quote the whole thing and not respond to any of it?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 23, 2014, 09:16:18 AM
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I don't follow. why did you quote the whole thing and not respond to any of it?
Computer issues.  For some reason my text didn't post.  Here is what I wanted to stay:

I agree with your opinion on all counts.  I have some experience with things that have been submerged in water and silt for long periods of time and if something is in some kind of container where water flow is impeded, fragile items can remain intact for decades.  I was discussing a missing body case with a body recovery expert recently, who commented he was involved in the recovery recently of a man who had been on the bottom of a lake for five years, yet much of his flesh that was protected by his clothing was intact.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 09:25:03 AM
Ok, I was wondering why you did that. what is your personal opinion of how the money arrived on the beach. I didn't even make the connection of you dealing with ship wrecks and things submerged. sometimes the sharp tools in the shed get dull  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 23, 2014, 10:19:25 AM
My opinion is the money bag landed in the Columbia and sank to the bottom and rested there for years.  The money bag was breached during dredging operations and the bills were subsequently deposited on the river bank where they were eventually found.

As for the plane's flight path and time and location of the jump, I'm not sure how precise that scary 1970s technology was when it comes to figuring things like when and where the jump happened.  It's probably fairly close, but not gospel. 

I tend to look at this case with the attitude "sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one". 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 10:24:29 AM
This is a follow up of my post above.

I don't know exactly what is written in "Skyjack" about Kaye mentioning human intervention, but his very own website states the following.

"we can speculate that he must have had some human interaction that could have eventually led to the money being buried on Tena Bar. How the Cooper bundles came to be buried where they were remains as big a mystery as who D.B. Cooper was."

Speculate: form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

Kaye never comes out and says it has to be this option, or shift it into the best option. books are often inaccurate. we see this with "Into The Blast" which is full of inaccuracies. not to mention the multiple versions.

The money and the plane are obviously connected. it doesn't necessarily have to fly over T-Bar in order to end up there. the path is upstream from the find. common sense points to it getting there somewhere upstream. when the FBI's lab clearly states the money was submerged with evidence of the Columbia in it. I can't see a plant connecting the evidence. money by water. missing body possibly near water. enough said?

The path could be off as R99 has claimed. I don't know enough to dismiss his theory, but he is working hard to find answers. something people wish to harp on him about. his efforts exceed common research I can tell you that much. they also go above simple website searches, or anything done online. I value his opinion just as the rest of the members on here.

R99's credentials exceed the ones going against him. his knowledge in this area are far more advanced than most. can he be wrong? sure he can, but I'm not going to ridicule him, and attack him personally for speaking out. 

Shutter...
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 10:31:40 AM
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My opinion is the money bag landed in the Columbia and sank to the bottom and rested there for years.  The money bag was breached during dredging operations and the bills were subsequently deposited on the river bank where they were eventually found.

As for the plane's flight path and time and location of the jump, I'm not sure how precise that scary 1970s technology was when it comes to figuring things like when and where the jump happened.  It's probably fairly close, but not gospel. 

I tend to look at this case with the attitude "sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one".

Egg-Zack-Lee  :D

Let me ask you this. could the money survive to a certain extent under water in the bag for 3 years prior to being pulled out by the dredge? that's what I'm not so sure about.

The 1970's technology is questionable. they can't find planes today!

Even proving the money went through the dredge, or washed up doesn't give us the answer needed.

Where Is DB Cooper  8)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 10:38:31 AM
This part should go in the flight path area, but only if it continues.

Originally they went by the timing of the oscillation. this was when Cooper went down the stairs. Rataczak now claims the pressure bump (stairs retracting up into the plane) was felt, but not reported, at least on the transcripts 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was at 8:05. this puts the jump further south than originally suspected, and closer to the Columbia.

I think it's all in the timing if you ask me....

One can note that the plane covers over a mile of water in the possible danger zone of the jump. that's a lot of water to look at. I mentioned "possible jump zone".
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 23, 2014, 11:40:12 AM
The money bundles could be very well persevered for a number of years, even more than a decade, in a submerged bag or in silt, depending on a few different factors, like silt composition, temperature, etc.  I consider it likely (my opinion) that the money sat in a bag at the bottom of the Columbia for many years until until it was placed on the river bank by human intervention (dredging).

Human bodies (deceased) are nearly weightless underwater and they can easily be moved by currents.  It's not unusual for the bodies of drowning victims to be recovered many miles downstream from where they drowned.  I've effortlessly moved pieces of wood underwater that weigh close to 100 pounds on dry land.  the bag and money would fall under this category as I believe it would not take much current to move them once they were submerged.   
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 12:00:40 PM
Nice post!

We still can't prove if Cooper survived, or not. In the past people claim other things should of come up with the dredging, hardware from the chute, clothing from Cooper. I think several factors could trouble this theory. 1) the money could of came off soon after he left the plane. 2) the money could have separated from Cooper while submerged. 3) If the body was hung up on something and deteriorated the hardware would have trouble moving in current. the clothing would have slowly disappear flowing rather fast with the current.

These are factors included IF a dredge was the purpose of the money find. I can't state anything as fact due to limited knowledge of the condition of everything.

It could be as simple as Cooper not knowing where he was and jumped at the worst time landing in the Columbia. Let me ask this. If Cooper was a no pull on the chute would his body sink rather quickly? this also includes the timing being off for him to land in the Columbia, or the Willamette that flows into the Columbia. it's speculation at the moment. nothing to shoot me over  8)
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: MarkBennett on November 23, 2014, 01:02:43 PM
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This is a follow up of my post above.

I don't know exactly what is written in "Skyjack" about Kaye mentioning human intervention, but his very own website states the following.

"we can speculate that he must have had some human interaction that could have eventually led to the money being buried on Tena Bar. How the Cooper bundles came to be buried where they were remains as big a mystery as who D.B. Cooper was."

Speculate: form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.

Kaye never comes out and says it has to be this option, or shift it into the best option. books are often inaccurate. we see this with "Into The Blast" which is full of inaccuracies. not to mention the multiple versions.

The money and the plane are obviously connected. it doesn't necessarily have to fly over T-Bar in order to end up there. the path is upstream from the find. common sense points to it getting there somewhere upstream. when the FBI's lab clearly states the money was submerged with evidence of the Columbia in it. I can't see a plant connecting the evidence. money by water. missing body possibly near water. enough said?

The path could be off as R99 has claimed. I don't know enough to dismiss his theory, but he is working hard to find answers. something people wish to harp on him about. his efforts exceed common research I can tell you that much. they also go above simple website searches, or anything done online. I value his opinion just as the rest of the members on here.

R99's credentials exceed the ones going against him. his knowledge in this area are far more advanced than most. can he be wrong? sure he can, but I'm not going to ridicule him, and attack him personally for speaking out. 

Shutter...

Dredging would count as non-natural means, as well.  Non-natural doesn't have to mean it was planted.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 23, 2014, 01:04:07 PM
If Cooper was a "no pull", he would have impacted the water at about 100 mph.  This would have expelled the air from his lungs making him negatively buoyant.  Being about 6 feet tall and weighing about 180 pounds, he probably had a low body fat percentage, making him even less buoyant (fat floats, muscle is about 3 times as dense and tends to sink).  I'm not sure if his chutes were negatively buoyant, but I suspect they were after being water logged, so I think he would have sank rather quickly.

Some bodies surface after a couple days because the decaying process produces gases which gather in the abdominal cavity.  Some of the reasons this may not occur are:

The money bag could have become separated from Cooper when he exited the aircraft, when (if) he pulled is chute, when (if) he impacted the water, or some time after being submerged with Coopers remains.

Or the money bag could have remained attached to Cooper's remains and remained there along with about $195,000 after some of the money was dredged and placed on the river bank.
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 23, 2014, 01:45:55 PM
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If Cooper was a "no pull", he would have impacted the water at about 100 mph.  This would have expelled the air from his lungs making him negatively buoyant.  Being about 6 feet tall and weighing about 180 pounds, he probably had a low body fat percentage, making him even less buoyant (fat floats, muscle is about 3 times as dense and tends to sink).  I'm not sure if his chutes were negatively buoyant, but I suspect they were after being water logged, so I think he would have sank rather quickly.

Some bodies surface after a couple days because the decaying process produces gases which gather in the abdominal cavity.  Some of the reasons this may not occur are:
  • Perforation of the abdominal cavity
    Temperature of the water
    Depth of the water

The money bag could have become separated from Cooper when he exited the aircraft, when (if) he pulled is chute, when (if) he impacted the water, or some time after being submerged with Coopers remains.

Or the money bag could have remained attached to Cooper's remains and remained there along with about $195,000 after some of the money was dredged and placed on the river bank.

Let me correct your speed if Cooper was a no pull.  That speed would be 180+ MPH after approximately a 10,000 foot free fall.  The total "package" (Cooper and his clothing, parachute(s), money bag, and anything else he had tied to himself) would weight approximately 225 pounds or maybe slightly more.

Perhaps Georger can elaborate on this specific point, but the money at Tina Bar appears to have been found about 10-12 feet above sea level with the Columbia River surface nominally being about 5-7 feet above sea level.  Hopefully, Georger can decipher some of his charts to determine the approximate surface level on the evening of the hijacking.  Basically, the water level had to be about 10-12 feet for the delivery of the money to the location where it was found at Tina Bar.  It is also unlikely that Cooper landed at Tina Bar since that location has a relatively large daily (year round) population of fishermen and others and the body and money would surely have been noticed within a very short time.

Tom Kaye discusses on his web site a packet of money that has obvious signs of being "torqued", or the bills rotated laterally with respect to each other.  That packet of money would have had to be constrained on its bottom and exposed to a water flow for that to have happened.  While that could have happened at Tina Bar, it is unlikely to have done so for the same reasons stated earlier.  Consequently, the money was apparently exposed to water flow elsewhere and for some length of time.

From the above, plus other considerations, it appears that Cooper was a no pull who landed on relatively solid ground very close to the river's edge.

Cooper was wearing a rain coat and maybe, according to one witness, long johns.  The parachute equipment he had on was essentially impervious to even salt water.  This suggests that after being de-fleshed, the major bones from the shoulders to the pelvis would still be constrained by the parachute equipment and Cooper's clothing.  So there remains the possibility that some remains of Cooper and/or his parachute equipment could still exist in the Tina Bar area, especially if he landed in one of the notorious briar patches in such places as Caterpillar Island.

Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 01:46:53 PM
We really have no way to tell if anymore of the money was spread out on the beach. at least nothing publicly shows that except the article of the FBI finding more of the money.

The northern spoil was very close to the money find. did they FBI search the southern spoil? this was a lot of sand that came out of the Columbia.

Caution....more speculation

The dredge could of broke the bag open sending it whirling around to be picked up at different times, and deposited at different times after it settled back on the river bed. Coopers body could be in the river upstream, or he survived and lost the money. the outer most part of the entire bag could of been so "soggy" and deteriorated that the violence going through the dredge left "fragments" to be spread over the beach after it was leveled out on the beach. I don't know, but it's more convincing than Cooper returning to get rid of his hard work. 
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 01:53:46 PM
Quote
Tom Kaye discusses on his web site a packet of money that has obvious signs of being "torqued", or the bills rotated laterally with respect to each other

Could this also apply to a no pull hard landing causing disruption of the entire package of bills?
Could this also apply for the bills being soaked and pushed during the leveling of the spoil?


Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 23, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
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Quote
Tom Kaye discusses on his web site a packet of money that has obvious signs of being "torqued", or the bills rotated laterally with respect to each other

Could this also apply to a no pull hard landing causing disruption of the entire package of bills?
Could this also apply for the bills being soaked and pushed during the leveling of the spoil?

The packet of money indicates that something, such as a single rubber band, held one end of the bill packet together while the other end of the packet was free so the bills could rotate.  And it appears that the end with the rubber band was compacted with sand while the top bills were free to break off from near the rubber band end.  To me, this suggests that a period of time was involved in both the compaction and torqueing (with subsequent loss of portions of the top bills).

Also, only one of the three(?) packets of bills gave evidence of torqueing and their arrival adjacent to each other at Tina Bar seems to have been a somewhat tranquil event.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 03:08:29 PM
It seems to me that it could also be like what occurs in shipping when things are tied down they still shift with movement of the vehicle. the money is locked in the bag, but could still shift in movement? if they were in that position for several years, they become bonded in that form?
Title: Re: Tena Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 23, 2014, 03:53:07 PM
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We really have no way to tell if anymore of the money was spread out on the beach. at least nothing publicly shows that except the article of the FBI finding more of the money.

The northern spoil was very close to the money find. did they FBI search the southern spoil? this was a lot of sand that came out of the Columbia.

Caution....more speculation

The dredge could of broke the bag open sending it whirling around to be picked up at different times, and deposited at different times after it settled back on the river bed. Coopers body could be in the river upstream, or he survived and lost the money. the outer most part of the entire bag could of been so "soggy" and deteriorated that the violence going through the dredge left "fragments" to be spread over the beach after it was leveled out on the beach. I don't know, but it's more convincing than Cooper returning to get rid of his hard work.

A mere 20 yards (60 feet) separates the beginning of the debris field grid, leading up to the Ingram find, from the north downstream edge of the North dredging pile. See attached. That assumes the Faxio did not spread it further than shown in the USGS photo which was taken before any spreading had occurred.

Tom is relying on 'there were no fragments' which is directly contradicted by the agents that were there. Two of the agents say the frags would have been sent to Washington just like the Ingram bills, for analysis, and would still be in Washington being held and not in Seattle for Tom to find.

Moreover, according to a USGS sediment expert, Tom's own work shows a direct association between the bills Tom examined and bottom channel dredging sediment. So if nothing else, it appears the Ingram money which was down stream of the north dredging pile was contaminated by the Tina Bar dredging sediment if it was not in direct contact with it in the beginning. According to Tom, there is no dredging sediment left on Tina Bar by 1980 to contaminate anything! Tom believes Palmer was wrong.

"Thousands of fragments" is consistent with the work of a dredger cutter; just as Tom requires. Two agents from the Portland office and several agents from the Seattle office all thought (and say) they thought the money had come up with the dredging ... that it was a prima facia case.

The problem I have is 'how does anything from Cooper become a part of the bottom sediment at this location, at all
by any date'. Yes there are wing dam piles nearby all along the opposite shore in the vicinity of the mile markers involved ... but its always been my understanding that it takes time for anything to become part of the bottom sediment especially near the main channel where current is strongest ???







 
 
   
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 04:09:24 PM
Some things I don't understand here. how high was the spoils? according to Google Distance map the money is about 92 feet from the edge of the north spoil. what type of machinery moved this sand? 50 yards seems to be marking the center of the spoil. have you ever watched a pile of dirt being moved, or leveled. I see it often on job sites.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 23, 2014, 05:12:34 PM
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Some things I don't understand here. how high was the spoils? according to Google Distance map the money is about 92 feet from the edge of the north spoil. what type of machinery moved this sand? 50 yards seems to be marking the center of the spoil. have you ever watched a pile of dirt being moved, or leveled. I see it often on job sites.

According to Bechly, USCE, 91,100 cubic yards of fill were placed at two locations on the Fazio beach -not sure how that gets divided between two piles. 50%-50%? (Snowmman did some calcs on this at DZ. He might have a guess as to numbers and distribution, but that would be only a guess because Bechly is not precise about the stats on two piles. Bechly just says: 91,100 cubic yards of fill.)

I dont think this is comparable to dirt. This is wet viscous sand and clay that spread out from it's own weight. You can see that spreading in the USGS photo. The heavy wet spoils probably 'melted' and moved some of the beach already there. The Fazio had to wait for the piles to settle before they could do any spreading. Im guessing that took a week? The wet portion that flowed back into the Columbia washed away over time.

Not sure how high each pile would have been, probably more wide than high. It's my understanding Al Fazio used a common small tractor and blade to move the spoil's around. Some like a little 1954 Ford Jubilee? All of this was during a dry period Aug74 to May75, and no real flooding at all (if I read the records correctly) until the break in the drought of 1977 in December 1977. So the sand would have been fairly stable with little erosion or movement until Dec of '77. The sands would have compacted during that long stable period ending in Dec of 77.


     
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 05:24:42 PM
That is a huge amount of sand. a typical dump truck holds about 7 cubic yards. that's over 13,000 truck loads. Google distance is reporting the spoils at around 460 feet, or 153 yards wide. I can base it on surrounding objects still in place from the photo in 74.

The calculator is pretty accurate. I actually used it once to measure something in reference to an up coming job several years ago.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 05:55:21 PM
Cooper just might be retired to a golf course  ;D ;D

http://www.abam.com/portfolio/project/283
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 09:27:03 PM
The lab goes on to say this about the money...

"consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia."

Now, based on that statement it appears the money can survive longer in the water than I thought. nmiwrecks basically said the same thing the lab reported?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 23, 2014, 09:45:33 PM
I have seen paper and fabric that has been underwater for over a century survive, but it has been in a place where there is zero water flow, like inside a steamer trunk or in silt in the hold of a ship.  Attached is a photo taken by Craig Passeno of corn that was taken from the hold of the Newell Eddy, which sank in 1893.  The photo was taken in 2006.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 10:03:59 PM
I've seen some interesting finds with digging up riverboats. they have all kinds of things preserved on them, but they are no longer in the Mississippi due to the shifting of the river. the show I watch had multiple pumps to keep the water from coming into the dig.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 23, 2014, 10:51:52 PM
If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 11:02:51 PM
Personally I'm not sure about anything with this case. I'm questioning the dismissal of the dredge operation. I'm not sold on the original flight path. it still leaves questions.

We do a have money by the water, and we do have the plane possibly near the money, or definitely upstream from it.


I don't know if you seen this. it's a view from my simulator, and the water around the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM&list=UUao0CtqYQZDnb_5v7zSlOpQ
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 23, 2014, 11:09:36 PM
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If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on November 23, 2014, 11:17:26 PM
How deep was the Columbia back then.  The part they were dredging out... were they widening the channel at all or just deepening it?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 23, 2014, 11:31:02 PM
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How deep was the Columbia back then.  The part they were dredging out... were they widening the channel at all or just deepening it?

They were only dredging to clear the path for shipping lanes if not mistaken.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 12:17:14 AM
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Personally I'm not sure about anything with this case. I'm questioning the dismissal of the dredge operation. I'm not sold on the original flight path. it still leaves questions.

We do a have money by the water, and we do have the plane possibly near the money, or definitely upstream from it.


I don't know if you seen this. it's a view from my simulator, and the water around the area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4DAg3_XyRM&list=UUao0CtqYQZDnb_5v7zSlOpQ

I think 'dismissal of the dredge operation' is too strong if you are talking about a poll of agents who worked on this matter. Some strongly favored dredging as the source of the money. Some bought into the Washougal washdown theory. Some actually wondered if Cooper had bailed into the area close to Tina Bar and the flight path was wrong. Several wondered if Cooper had survived the jump and was trying to get back to Portland but was intercepted by hobos and relieved of his money (perhaps killed and his body thrown into the Columbia) - area hospital records in the Portland-Vancouver area were searched again looking for any Jon Doe's whose bodies had turned up right after the hijacking but been missed in the first search of hospitals). And Pringle in the Seattle office said publicly he thought the Cooper money might have come up on Tina Bar "in ice".  So, there was a fairly wide range of opinion, but no way to resolve it. All of this is one reason why Carr's call for new forensic work on the money was important.

I have always liked Pringle's suggestion. Amazon shot that down in Dropzone - she lived near Tina Bar.


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 12:29:37 AM
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If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.

... unless his chute becomes snagged on one of hose pile wingdams across from Tina Bar ?

The yellow line is the area of dredging between mile markers 96 & 97.  The black flag symbol across from Tina Bar is an old ship wreck ...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 24, 2014, 12:44:15 AM
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If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.

... unless his chute becomes snagged on one of hose pile wingdams across from Tina Bar ?

The yellow line is the area of dredging between mile markers 96 & 97.  The black flag symbol across from Tina Bar is an old ship wreck ...

There was another old ship wreck at the northern end of Caterpillar Island and south (upstream) of Tina Bar.  But that ship wreck was apparently removed at some unknown time.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 12:59:29 AM
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If you believe, like I do, that the money arrived on the bar via dredging because the money bag landed in the Columbia River, then the flight path (or at least the longitude of it)  becomes irrelevant, because the money drifted or landed where it was dredged or directly on the bar.  If that's the case, then we know approximately when, or I guess where (the latitude) of his jump.  Does this make sense?

Keep an open mind on this a while longer.  Perhaps we can define the flight path a bit better in the near future.  And if so, we may also be able to make a valid statement about whether Cooper died in the jump or perhaps survived.  I have discussed this at length on the DZ thread, but I would like to point out again that the Tina Bar area has some unique topography that, depending on the flight path, has the potential for answering any number of questions.  And the money find at Tina Bar is a key factor in answering those questions.

But even at this time I think it is safe to say that if Cooper had landed in the river itself, he would probably have splashed not very far upstream of Tina Bar and floated right by it before sinking into the shipping channel.

... unless his chute becomes snagged on one of hose pile wingdams across from Tina Bar ?

The yellow line is the area of dredging between mile markers 96 & 97.  The black flag symbol across from Tina Bar is an old ship wreck ...

There was another old ship wreck at the northern end of Caterpillar Island and south (upstream) of Tina Bar.  But that ship wreck was apparently removed at some unknown time.

Thanks Robert. Let me post the river river data again so everyone can correlate their thinking with river levels ...
The problem I have with him becoming part of the bottom sediments is how? It takes time and the right circumstance for that to happen. The existence of fragments has not been confirmed as an independent fact in any layer of strata. Sluggo's "missing link" is still missing.  :)
 

 


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 24, 2014, 01:24:29 AM
I don't see anything prior to January 1, 1973 in those graphs.  Presumably, the Portland newspaper would routinely report the daily river levels.  Does anyone happen to know if the Portland newspapers for the 1971 and more recent dates are online or maybe available on microfilm?

I think there was a bad flood in the Portland area about the summer of 1972 and the events related to it may be the first time the river got to the 10-12 foot level at Tina Bar following the hijacking.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 01:52:15 AM
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I don't see anything prior to January 1, 1973 in those graphs.  Presumably, the Portland newspaper would routinely report the daily river levels.  Does anyone happen to know if the Portland newspapers for the 1971 and more recent dates are online or maybe available on microfilm?

I think there was a bad flood in the Portland area about the summer of 1972 and the events related to it may be the first time the river got to the 10-12 foot level at Tina Bar following the hijacking.

The following from FEMA declarations and WSU declaration records -

http://www.fema.gov/news/disasters_state.fema?id=53
http://www.climate.washington.edu/stormking/

1972 06/10 SEVERE STORMS, FLOODING  334
1972/04/05 Storm and tornado, Vancouver
1972 03/24 Heavy Rains, Flooding  328
1972 02/01 SEVERE STORMS, FLOODING  322
1971 03/25-26 SEVERE STORM, WINDSTORM – HIT PORTLAND-VANCOUVER
1971 03/04 WINDSTORMS – PORTLAND TO OREGON COAST
1971 02/09 Heavy Rains, Melting Snow, Flooding  300
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 04:38:20 PM
Well, it seems it's down to a couple things.

1) The path could be wrong. possibly landed closer the T-Bar.
2) The dredge brought the money to the surface.
3) Cooper lost the money and survived.
4) Cooper didn't pull and cannonball'ed in the river upstream.

Anything above calls for hard evidence to convince anyone. none of the 4 can be assumed!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 06:01:05 PM
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Well, it seems it's down to a couple things.

1) The path could be wrong. possibly landed closer the T-Bar.
2) The dredge brought the money to the surface.
3) Cooper lost the money and survived.
4) Cooper didn't pull and cannonball'ed in the river upstream.

Anything above calls for hard evidence to convince anyone. none of the 4 can be assumed!

Another thing never published is a fairly detailed account of the first days of the excavation and what was done, prior to Palmer and the Seattle guys arriving. The Portland agents in charge during this early period literally set the plan for the whole excavation and the details of what they did and why is revealing... That early work by a few agents ballooned to over 25 agents, plus other LE, plus Palmer, and others ... all working!  I will present an outline of this soon ... if the creeks don't rise! These agents took some pains to try and determine the distribution of the money fragments across the beach going south of the Ingram find, and through the strata present. The Palmer backhoe trench was but one of many trenches dug, by hand ...
   


   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 06:02:35 PM
Carr reports this in December of 2007.

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's. I can't imagine the bundles broke from the bag and entered the river at some other location and then multiple bundles land at the same beach several miles down stream. Once in the flow of the river there would be nothing to keep the bundles together to allow several of them to land at the same beach. What I think that means is the bag had to have landed. at the beach with all of the money inside. While on the beach or just at the waters edge the bag finally snagged something that broke it open.

Once open, several bundles fell from the bag and stayed on the beach. Due to the flow of water, the bag, along with the rest of the money drifted off in the Columbia.

Define "waters edge"
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 06:06:02 PM
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Well, it seems it's down to a couple things.

1) The path could be wrong. possibly landed closer the T-Bar.
2) The dredge brought the money to the surface.
3) Cooper lost the money and survived.
4) Cooper didn't pull and cannonball'ed in the river upstream.

Anything above calls for hard evidence to convince anyone. none of the 4 can be assumed!

5) Cooper made his way to Vancouver headed for Portland and was attacked and at least some of the money was lost in a struggle?


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 06:08:34 PM
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Carr reports this in December of 2007.

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's. I can't imagine the bundles broke from the bag and entered the river at some other location and then multiple bundles land at the same beach several miles down stream. Once in the flow of the river there would be nothing to keep the bundles together to allow several of them to land at the same beach. What I think that means is the bag had to have landed. at the beach with all of the money inside. While on the beach or just at the waters edge the bag finally snagged something that broke it open.

Once open, several bundles fell from the bag and stayed on the beach. Due to the flow of water, the bag, along with the rest of the money drifted off in the Columbia.

Define "waters edge"

The exact distance of the Ingram find from the water's edge has always been a bone of contention. ????  Did you find anything by Carr about that?

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 06:09:18 PM
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Well, it seems it's down to a couple things.

1) The path could be wrong. possibly landed closer the T-Bar.
2) The dredge brought the money to the surface.
3) Cooper lost the money and survived.
4) Cooper didn't pull and cannonball'ed in the river upstream.

Anything above calls for hard evidence to convince anyone. none of the 4 can be assumed!

5) Cooper made his way to Vancouver headed for Portland and was attacked and at least some of the money was lost in a struggle?

I don't think we have any way to prove that one. that would be stuck under assume?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 06:17:03 PM
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Carr reports this in December of 2007.

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's. I can't imagine the bundles broke from the bag and entered the river at some other location and then multiple bundles land at the same beach several miles down stream. Once in the flow of the river there would be nothing to keep the bundles together to allow several of them to land at the same beach. What I think that means is the bag had to have landed. at the beach with all of the money inside. While on the beach or just at the waters edge the bag finally snagged something that broke it open.

Once open, several bundles fell from the bag and stayed on the beach. Due to the flow of water, the bag, along with the rest of the money drifted off in the Columbia.

Define "waters edge"

The exact distance of the Ingram find from the water's edge has always been a bone of contention. ????  Did you find anything by Carr about that?

It's Carr's comment about the "waters edge" the picture shows two separate area's being searched. one is close to the shoreline. the black & white photo we have put on here several times.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 24, 2014, 06:18:35 PM
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Carr reports this in December of 2007.

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's. I can't imagine the bundles broke from the bag and entered the river at some other location and then multiple bundles land at the same beach several miles down stream. Once in the flow of the river there would be nothing to keep the bundles together to allow several of them to land at the same beach. What I think that means is the bag had to have landed. at the beach with all of the money inside. While on the beach or just at the waters edge the bag finally snagged something that broke it open.

Once open, several bundles fell from the bag and stayed on the beach. Due to the flow of water, the bag, along with the rest of the money drifted off in the Columbia.

Define "waters edge"

Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 06:26:38 PM
Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 24, 2014, 08:44:21 PM
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Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
I respectfully disagree.  Everybody in that region heard the news of the skyjacking and was on the lookout for parachutes, a white bag, or bundles of $20 bills.  I can't see money laying out in the open for the lengthy amount of time it would take to become buried. 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 09:02:02 PM
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Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
I respectfully disagree.  Everybody in that region heard the news of the skyjacking and was on the lookout for parachutes, a white bag, or bundles of $20 bills.  I can't see money laying out in the open for the lengthy amount of time it would take to become buried.

If I'm not mistaken as to what is being said is this is some time after the crime. when the bag was finally released from where it has been previously to landing on the beach. not a week or so after the crime. possibly due to flooding.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 24, 2014, 09:03:41 PM
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Well, it seems it's down to a couple things.

1) The path could be wrong. possibly landed closer the T-Bar.
2) The dredge brought the money to the surface.
3) Cooper lost the money and survived.
4) Cooper didn't pull and cannonball'ed in the river upstream.

Anything above calls for hard evidence to convince anyone. none of the 4 can be assumed!

Another thing never published is a fairly detailed account of the first days of the excavation and what was done, prior to Palmer and the Seattle guys arriving. The Portland agents in charge during this early period literally set the plan for the whole excavation and the details of what they did and why is revealing... That early work by a few agents ballooned to over 25 agents, plus other LE, plus Palmer, and others ... all working!  I will present an outline of this soon ... if the creeks don't rise! These agents took some pains to try and determine the distribution of the money fragments across the beach going south of the Ingram find, and through the strata present. The Palmer backhoe trench was but one of many trenches dug, by hand ...
   


 

I eagerly await your report, G.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 09:06:14 PM
I'm open to all reasonable possibilities. we seem to have several.

Ross, In your opinion, what would happen to money, or piles of paper compressed in water protected by a canvas bag? would they become one so to speak. locking together?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 24, 2014, 10:09:47 PM
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Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
I respectfully disagree.  Everybody in that region heard the news of the skyjacking and was on the lookout for parachutes, a white bag, or bundles of $20 bills.  I can't see money laying out in the open for the lengthy amount of time it would take to become buried.

If I'm not mistaken as to what is being said is this is some time after the crime. when the bag was finally released from where it has been previously to landing on the beach. not a week or so after the crime. possibly due to flooding.

Gotcha, that makes sense and I stand corrected.

I don't think the bills would fuse together, but I really don't know the materials used in bills of that vintage. 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 10:13:58 PM
We have been talking about it for years. we need to put some money out there and see what happens. if it was done the first time it was brought up. we would have info mania  ;D

I have a canal out back of my house (fresh water) I could do it there easily, but don't think it would be helpful or not?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 24, 2014, 10:17:56 PM
Currency:

The paper and ink used in the production of U.S. paper currency is as distinct as its design.  The paper comes to the BEP in brown paper-wrapped loads of 20,000 sheets (2 pallets of 10,000 sheets).  Each of these sheets is tracked by the BEP as it passes through the production process.   And, the total inventory of 20,000 sheets is continually reconciled to make sure each sheet is accounted for.  Currency paper is specifically made for the BEP by Crane Paper Company.  The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc, is primarily made of wood pulp; however, United States currency paper is composed of 75% cotton and 25% linen.  This is what gives United States currency its distinct look and feel.  For denominations of $5 and above, the security thread, and watermark are already built into the paper when it is received.
 
All bills, regardless of denomination, utilize green ink on the backs.  Faces, on the other hand, use black ink, color-shifting ink in the lower right hand corner for the $10 denominations and higher, and metallic ink for the freedom icons on redesigned $10, $20, and $50 bills.   The $100 note's "bell in the inkwell" freedom icon uses color-shifting ink.  These and the other inks appearing on U.S. currency are specially formulated and blended by the BEP.  Inks headed for BEP presses also undergo continual quality testing.
 

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 11:48:51 PM
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Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
I respectfully disagree.  Everybody in that region heard the news of the skyjacking and was on the lookout for parachutes, a white bag, or bundles of $20 bills.  I can't see money laying out in the open for the lengthy amount of time it would take to become buried.

That's actually a very good point. The process that brought the money has to also remove it from view in a reasonable amount of time!  :o

Only a few processes qualify.


 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 24, 2014, 11:57:30 PM
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Currency:

The paper and ink used in the production of U.S. paper currency is as distinct as its design.  The paper comes to the BEP in brown paper-wrapped loads of 20,000 sheets (2 pallets of 10,000 sheets).  Each of these sheets is tracked by the BEP as it passes through the production process.   And, the total inventory of 20,000 sheets is continually reconciled to make sure each sheet is accounted for.  Currency paper is specifically made for the BEP by Crane Paper Company.  The ordinary paper that consumers use throughout their everyday life such as newspapers, books, cereal boxes, etc, is primarily made of wood pulp; however, United States currency paper is composed of 75% cotton and 25% linen.  This is what gives United States currency its distinct look and feel.  For denominations of $5 and above, the security thread, and watermark are already built into the paper when it is received.
 
All bills, regardless of denomination, utilize green ink on the backs.  Faces, on the other hand, use black ink, color-shifting ink in the lower right hand corner for the $10 denominations and higher, and metallic ink for the freedom icons on redesigned $10, $20, and $50 bills.   The $100 note's "bell in the inkwell" freedom icon uses color-shifting ink.  These and the other inks appearing on U.S. currency are specially formulated and blended by the BEP.  Inks headed for BEP presses also undergo continual quality testing.

An emulsifier is added which holds the fibres together. I have a complete list of the chemistry on that paper...
an expert (chemist) on paper money was one of those in the original team.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
My theory is that if Cooper secured the bag tight for the trip down it's possible over time the bundles became one. I'm wondering how many stacks were in the bag, or tiers? the bundles were clearly bonded together. Brian found other bills the FBI missed, rather PCGS currency found more bills stuck together. the bag should also act similar to the rubber bands holding the money together.

The following statement is in the "Timeline For Tena Bar dig" found on Citizensleuths.

"Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)"

Larry Carr states differently:

"I know what your saying when you write, "the money is in the same order as when it was handed to Cooper" but the order per serial number was never documented. There is no indication the money was re-bundled."

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it."
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on November 25, 2014, 08:34:59 AM
If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 08:43:04 AM
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on November 25, 2014, 08:52:03 AM
You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 09:07:01 AM
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

That's above my head. perhaps Georger, or Robert99 can answer than one. I'm sure a lot would depend on how he hit the water, how deep it was etc.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 25, 2014, 09:15:48 AM
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.

River bottoms, especially large river bottoms like the Columbia with a huge amounts of water flow are very dynamic areas.  Sand bars form and move, holes are created by water flow around obstacles like trees and then filled in when the obstacle moves.  There are back waters and and the changing volume (depth) of water has a substantial affect on the river bottom topography. 

It is possible for an item like the money bag or a body to become covered or submerged in silt or mud on the bottom of a river like the Columbia in a short amount of time, regardless of the depth.  Theoretically, the money bag and even a body could have tumbled along the bottom until it was snagged by a log or other obstacle or fell into a "hole" (we've all heard of fishing holes) out of the flow of water and was covered by silt, sand and dirt particles that met the same fate (fell into a hole with limited water flow).
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 25, 2014, 09:23:17 AM
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

Hitting the water at terminal velocity would be devastating to the human body.  Hitting mud a couple feet below the water's surface at that speed would be horrific and it could bury or partially bury a body or money bag.  Some of the factors would be the density of the mud and the depth of the water over the mud.  River bottoms tend to have dense muddy and sandy bottoms where there is good water flow, and it gets pretty mucky where there isn't.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 10:07:34 AM
Even a no-pull has lots of factors behind it hitting the water. was it in the middle of the river, on the bank, or just off the bank? would the money stay intact through this process. that would depend on how well he secured the bag. do we have a no-pull over land?

I have a parachute dude on my simulator, but it's not a round canopy, and he doesn't free fall. I've used him in the old jump zone. he lands in the basic area. I have to apply full brakes on the chute for a slow descent. I can drop a 250 lb bomb with a camera on it, but I doubt it's very scientific  ;D

Full brake 8mph @ 750 fpm

Update: I found a free falling skydiver for the sim. I'll install it once I return from work, or as soon as I figure out if there is work today. paint shop holding material up. the downfall of this biz.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPW1fKM7JHU
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 01:36:02 PM
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My theory is that if Cooper secured the bag tight for the trip down it's possible over time the bundles became one. I'm wondering how many stacks were in the bag, or tiers? the bundles were clearly bonded together. Brian found other bills the FBI missed, rather PCGS currency found more bills stuck together. the bag should also act similar to the rubber bands holding the money together.

The following statement is in the "Timeline For Tena Bar dig" found on Citizensleuths.

"Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)"

Larry Carr states differently:

"I know what your saying when you write, "the money is in the same order as when it was handed to Cooper" but the order per serial number was never documented. There is no indication the money was re-bundled."

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it."

Each bundle was supposed to have about $2000, so 100 bundles = $200,000.  There is no reason not to think the content of the Ingram bundles was in the same order as when given, except that order was destroyed partly when the Ingrams pulled the stack apart.
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 01:38:48 PM
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

search DZ for the calculations we did ...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2014, 01:46:47 PM
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.

River bottoms, especially large river bottoms like the Columbia with a huge amounts of water flow are very dynamic areas.  Sand bars form and move, holes are created by water flow around obstacles like trees and then filled in when the obstacle moves.  There are back waters and and the changing volume (depth) of water has a substantial affect on the river bottom topography. 

It is possible for an item like the money bag or a body to become covered or submerged in silt or mud on the bottom of a river like the Columbia in a short amount of time, regardless of the depth.  Theoretically, the money bag and even a body could have tumbled along the bottom until it was snagged by a log or other obstacle or fell into a "hole" (we've all heard of fishing holes) out of the flow of water and was covered by silt, sand and dirt particles that met the same fate (fell into a hole with limited water flow).

Let me add some comments and ask a question.  The comments are that a few years ago, the then extant topographical charts for the Tina Bar area listed the "channel" between the Columbia River bank and Caterpillar Island as "mud flats".  Somewhere around the very late 1970s, the Flushing Channel, just south and upstream of Caterpillar Island, between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake was completed.  Then apparently in the same time frame, the Caterpillar Island "channel" mentioned above was dredged and today there is a marina located in it (Amazon used to live on her boat which was docked there) that appears to be handling boats with drafts of 4+ feet.  Then the money was found at Tina Bar in early 1980.  Yes, I am suggesting that there could easily be a connection between these events.

My question is how long would it take an otherwise unrestrained body to surface in the cold Columbia River waters.  Or how long does it take for the same thing to happen in Lake Michigan. 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 01:54:39 PM
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If Cooper no-pulled, plunged into the Columbia a few feet on the outside of the channel (5-10 ft depth), how far would/could he have gone into the mud at the bottom?  Could he have gone far enough in to be stuck in the muck along with the money?   

I can only speculate here. as Ross has pointed out a body is almost weightless underwater, so it's hard to tell where he could end up. he could of been stuck in place, his body could of been snagged on something, but things would slowly separate from the body. clothing would slowly degrade, the money could become loose and leave it's original spot on the body. since we have no known point of contact with the river it's hard to say where the starting point would be.

River bottoms, especially large river bottoms like the Columbia with a huge amounts of water flow are very dynamic areas.  Sand bars form and move, holes are created by water flow around obstacles like trees and then filled in when the obstacle moves.  There are back waters and and the changing volume (depth) of water has a substantial affect on the river bottom topography. 

It is possible for an item like the money bag or a body to become covered or submerged in silt or mud on the bottom of a river like the Columbia in a short amount of time, regardless of the depth.  Theoretically, the money bag and even a body could have tumbled along the bottom until it was snagged by a log or other obstacle or fell into a "hole" (we've all heard of fishing holes) out of the flow of water and was covered by silt, sand and dirt particles that met the same fate (fell into a hole with limited water flow).

If you go in the river say from Troutdale to Portland, the salvage people we talked to said you would have to clear all the junk on the bottom to get much beyond Portland. There are maps of the bottom junk that is known in the Portland area. Beyond Portland and the Willamette the bottom gets rather smooth except for a few holes but as the other posters said the dynamics of those holes changes over time. The bottom is smooth to the main channel up near Caterpillar Island  along Tena Bar - bottom photography and some bathymetry of that area showed a remarkably smooth bottom in that area (some of those photos and movies were posted at DZ).

Not sure how the main channel transitions over to the Oregon side (wing damn area) across from Caterpillar Isle up to Tena Bar except that is one of the areas Tosaw divers explored looking for Cooper.

 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 02:18:56 PM
Location of Ingram find: 40 feet or 40 yards, from water line ? -

Most accounts place the Ingram find at 40 feet from the water's edge. Sluggo's post below reflects that.
Tom's graphic shows the location as being 40 yards from the water's edge, not 40 feet?

Ingram photo taken at the time:  Note the high apparent elevation of Ingram's position in the photo - this has always been debated for two reasons: (a) people said Brian's location was not 40 feet from the water's edge as reported by Harold at the time, and (b) people noted Tina Bar was not as high in elevation as the photo seems to show. Some people countered: 'the photo showing Brian was taken at a very low angle and does not reflect the true elevation at the location'. ???

Which is correct? 40 feet or 40 yards?

Sluggo's post below:
Sluggo_Monster

Jul 22, 2008, 4:31 PM
Post #3721 of 56245 (48447 views)
    Re: [georger] dredging and trash, report [In reply to]
________________________________________
I have tried without success to find a detailed elevation map of Tina Bar to know exactly what elevations exist there. Is it flat or sloped or what! ? The Ingram photo does not match the FBI excavation photos. But 40ft feet up from the waterline seems consistent in every report. The place the money was found, the slope it was, and distance from the water line on are important because they define the processes that apply at that location vs other locations in that area.

If anyone has a topographic chart of this bar please post it!
The best I could find has 10 ft contour lines. The bar goes up (from the river) to about 20 ft at Lower River Road uniformly.

I'm still looking for a better map. I tried to create a profile from the USGS North American Digital Elevation Data, but it wasn't very informative.

Sluggo_Monster
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Parrotheadvol on November 25, 2014, 02:53:12 PM
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Carr reports this in December of 2007.

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's. I can't imagine the bundles broke from the bag and entered the river at some other location and then multiple bundles land at the same beach several miles down stream. Once in the flow of the river there would be nothing to keep the bundles together to allow several of them to land at the same beach. What I think that means is the bag had to have landed. at the beach with all of the money inside. While on the beach or just at the waters edge the bag finally snagged something that broke it open.

Once open, several bundles fell from the bag and stayed on the beach. Due to the flow of water, the bag, along with the rest of the money drifted off in the Columbia.

Define "waters edge"


Wait just a second....Carr said this???

In 2007???

I thought that this was never realized until RMB suggested it to Detective Fuhriman!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 25, 2014, 05:10:05 PM

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Let me add some comments and ask a question.  The comments are that a few years ago, the then extant topographical charts for the Tina Bar area listed the "channel" between the Columbia River bank and Caterpillar Island as "mud flats".  Somewhere around the very late 1970s, the Flushing Channel, just south and upstream of Caterpillar Island, between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake was completed.  Then apparently in the same time frame, the Caterpillar Island "channel" mentioned above was dredged and today there is a marina located in it (Amazon used to live on her boat which was docked there) that appears to be handling boats with drafts of 4+ feet.  Then the money was found at Tina Bar in early 1980.  Yes, I am suggesting that there could easily be a connection between these events.

My question is how long would it take an otherwise unrestrained body to surface in the cold Columbia River waters.  Or how long does it take for the same thing to happen in Lake Michigan.

It's not uncommon for bodies to wash up on Lake Michigan shores after a year or two of being in the water.  They are generally in pretty bad shape and missing "parts".  Usually the head is the first thing to come off, as the neck is a weak point and the head has some weight and mass to it.  The limbs are next.  Clothing can hold things together longer and protect soft tissues for a while.

There are so many things that could happen to a body in the Columbia.  It could wash out to sea, get eaten by wildlife, get sucked into a freighter propeller, lay on the bottom indefinitely.  It could wash up anywhere on the banks of the river in the next few years.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2014, 06:51:58 PM
I believe that quote above is from Robert99....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 25, 2014, 11:57:32 PM
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Let me add some comments and ask a question.  The comments are that a few years ago, the then extant topographical charts for the Tina Bar area listed the "channel" between the Columbia River bank and Caterpillar Island as "mud flats".  Somewhere around the very late 1970s, the Flushing Channel, just south and upstream of Caterpillar Island, between the Columbia River and Vancouver Lake was completed.  Then apparently in the same time frame, the Caterpillar Island "channel" mentioned above was dredged and today there is a marina located in it (Amazon used to live on her boat which was docked there) that appears to be handling boats with drafts of 4+ feet.  Then the money was found at Tina Bar in early 1980.  Yes, I am suggesting that there could easily be a connection between these events.

My question is how long would it take an otherwise unrestrained body to surface in the cold Columbia River waters.  Or how long does it take for the same thing to happen in Lake Michigan.

It's not uncommon for bodies to wash up on Lake Michigan shores after a year or two of being in the water.  They are generally in pretty bad shape and missing "parts".  Usually the head is the first thing to come off, as the neck is a weak point and the head has some weight and mass to it.  The limbs are next.  Clothing can hold things together longer and protect soft tissues for a while.

There are so many things that could happen to a body in the Columbia.  It could wash out to sea, get eaten by wildlife, get sucked into a freighter propeller, lay on the bottom indefinitely.  It could wash up anywhere on the banks of the river in the next few years.

I've spent any years in the UP. Michigan is warmer than Superior. Lake Superior has long been known for "never giving up her dead". Too cold. Gases can't develop as they can in warmer (Lk Michigan) waters.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 26, 2014, 12:30:41 AM
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Quote
Carr's suggestion as to how the money came out of the bag and stayed together seems reasonable.

Agreed, but we need reasonable proof to prove it. that's the toughest part of it all....
I respectfully disagree.  Everybody in that region heard the news of the skyjacking and was on the lookout for parachutes, a white bag, or bundles of $20 bills.  I can't see money laying out in the open for the lengthy amount of time it would take to become buried.

I think this is extremely important so am returning to it-

I can't imagine money laying on the surface at Tina Bar and going unnoticed very long.

If Schreuder's story of the fragments is true, it didn't take the agents but a minute to see and pick up fragments, once they began canvassing the area of the Ingram find. In fact, several agents even voiced the suspicion that the Ingrams saw fragments first then followed the fragment field (north) and that lead them to the bundles just under the surface poking through.

One agent also takes it on faith that no prior 'tips' about finding money on Tina Bar, ever reached the Portland office because, he says, "We would have been all over that in an instant. That could have lead to the discovery of the Ingram bundles earlier. We would have checked something like that out immediately ...".

If we assume money on Tina Bar would have drawn attention, and didn't, then either the money arrived almost coterminous with the Ingram's seeing and finding it, or it arrived by some process which also buried it until erosion exposed it to public view. The last known significant high water was during the flood of late 1977-78 which ended the record drought of 1977. There were no significant high water events after this capable of covering the money until the Ingrams found some.

Even if the money arrives from close to Tina Bar, it has to be covered from public view long enough to wait to be seen.

 :-\
 

 

 



   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 26, 2014, 02:30:04 AM
I've asked this before, but not receiving any response it might be worthwhile to voice it again:

After the money find, did the FBI conduct any survey of the area for more money or information?  For instance, did they survey fishermen? If so, who did the work and who was interviewed? Any information gleaned?

Georger?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2014, 07:03:12 AM
It's hard to say how visible it really was? kids are more curious than adults. how busy was the beach? are we 100% sure it was actually sticking out of the sand? why was the money wet way up the beach where the sand is typically dry? then we read Carr stating it was by the "rivers edge". that would prove to be a more likely position where the money would stay wet. not up by the treeline.

February 10, 1980
Wind Speed:    17.1 knots   ( 24 )
Max Wind Speed:    26 knots   
Max Wind Gust:    n/a   
Precipitation Amount:    0 inches G   
Snow Depth:    n/a   

There was light rain rain in the previous days.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: BuckwheatFlowers on November 26, 2014, 08:03:26 AM
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You ever jump off a rope swing when water level kind of low?  Sometimes your feet will go a few inches into the mud... and your'e only going what....5mph?  So I was just curious as to how far one would go into the mud layer (I know... that's not a scientific term) if one was going over 100 mph.

search DZ for the calculations we did ...

I looked for it but couldn't find it.  One thread with 56,000+ posts.... like trying to find a needle in a haystack.   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 26, 2014, 09:45:37 AM
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I've spent any years in the UP. Michigan is warmer than Superior. Lake Superior has long been known for "never giving up her dead". Too cold. Gases can't develop as they can in warmer (Lk Michigan) waters.

Very true Georger.  Temperature and depth of water are the main factors on whether a body will float or not.  Fresh water is most dense at 39 degrees F.  This means all other water (even ice) will "float" on top of 39 degree water.  So at the bottom of most deep fresh water lakes the water temp is, you guessed it, 39 degrees.  The water also stratifies into layers in these lakes.  The Columbia is a little different though.  Dynamic water movement probably mixes the temperature layers up pretty good, though I suspect this time of year the runoff that makes up the Columbia is pretty dang cold already.

Here is an article describing a recently found body on a Lake Michigan beach that may have some useful information:
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/11/decomposed_body_found_on_beach.html (http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/11/decomposed_body_found_on_beach.html)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2014, 07:18:30 PM
Quote
I looked for it but couldn't find it.  One thread with 56,000+ posts.... like trying to find a needle in a haystack. 

I'll see if I can find something on it Buckwheat. a better answer could have been given. all kinds of factors would go into I would guess. how he hit the water, the depth, what the bottom consisted of etc.

What I can see is Carr giving a time frame of 8:10 to 8:15. at 8:17 the plane is at the Columbia! the estimate was 5-10 minutes after the 8:05 mark. I believe Carr has even stated 8:20 which would put them over the "suburbs". we are now dangerously close to the Columbia by using the time data supplied on the transcripts. as I mentioned the other day. it could be as simple as being at the wrong place, at the wrong time.


Update: Georger Oct. 2010

Calcs show at a terminal velocity of 120 mph (53.6m/sec) Cooper in free fall may not have penetrated open water by more than 3-6 feet depending on angle ... and a mud base 16" thick no more than a foot again depending on angle ... all of which was a little surprising to me. I am using the standard formulae and estimated drag coeficients for water mud. The (low) terminal velocity of a human body turns out to be crucial vs say a meteorite, and in the case of mud a surprising amount of energy is dispersed outward quickly (even at relatively step angles).

This may give definition to the matter of
"augering in" which some speculated about.

In the water scenario it means that if he landed
in deep water he surely did not hit bottom, but simply suffered the usual injuries and moved on
with the current.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 26, 2014, 08:33:17 PM
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In the water scenario it means that if he landed
in deep water he surely did not hit bottom, but simply suffered the usual injuries and moved on
with the current.

the following statement could be considered a possibility, more than a probability.  It is possible that Cooper successfully deployed his chute and landed gently in the Columbia.  The results would be the same, however, as he would suffer from hypothermia or drown and sink with the money bag.  It probably doesn't matter.  I'm just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2014, 09:10:26 PM
we are just basically covering a no-pull into the river. it's entirely possible he could of also landed in the water deployed. if he wasn't experienced enough I could only imagine he drowned. the question for this scenario would be disappearing from the surface? would that happen?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 26, 2014, 10:14:53 PM
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we are just basically covering a no-pull into the river. it's entirely possible he could of also landed in the water deployed. if he wasn't experienced enough I could only imagine he drowned. the question for this scenario would be disappearing from the surface? would that happen?

Dressed as he was, with the chutes and money bag and maybe even the briefcase attached to him, in the ice cold river during the dark of night, I just don't see how he could have survived.  Anything more than waist deep water and he would have been F'd.  I think (IMO) the result of what happened to the money bag would be the same.  It would move down the river bottom until it reached a spot where it's drag was more than the water's current.  It seems all the scenarios lead to this, except a river bank impact. 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2014, 10:23:08 PM
That's what makes it so hard to pinpoint what happened. scenario mania!!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 27, 2014, 12:05:27 AM
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Quote
I looked for it but couldn't find it.  One thread with 56,000+ posts.... like trying to find a needle in a haystack. 

I'll see if I can find something on it Buckwheat. a better answer could have been given. all kinds of factors would go into I would guess. how he hit the water, the depth, what the bottom consisted of etc.

What I can see is Carr giving a time frame of 8:10 to 8:15. at 8:17 the plane is at the Columbia! the estimate was 5-10 minutes after the 8:05 mark. I believe Carr has even stated 8:20 which would put them over the "suburbs". we are now dangerously close to the Columbia by using the time data supplied on the transcripts. as I mentioned the other day. it could be as simple as being at the wrong place, at the wrong time.


Update: Georger Oct. 2010

Calcs show at a terminal velocity of 120 mph (53.6m/sec) Cooper in free fall may not have penetrated open water by more than 3-6 feet depending on angle ... and a mud base 16" thick no more than a foot again depending on angle ... all of which was a little surprising to me. I am using the standard formulae and estimated drag coeficients for water mud. The (low) terminal velocity of a human body turns out to be crucial vs say a meteorite, and in the case of mud a surprising amount of energy is dispersed outward quickly (even at relatively step angles).

This may give definition to the matter of
"augering in" which some speculated about.

In the water scenario it means that if he landed
in deep water he surely did not hit bottom, but simply suffered the usual injuries and moved on
with the current.

If you believe that the printed ARINC teletype message stamped 8:22 PM meant that the airliner was 23 DME miles south of the PDX (now BTG) VORTAC at 8:22 PM (and I don't) then the airliner would be well pass the Columbia River at that point.  If you believe that the voice call to the ARINC teletype station about that location was actually made at 8:18 PM as recorded in the NWA paperwork (and I do) then the airliner was south of the Columbia River much earlier.  And Cooper would have jumped about 8:12 or 8:13 PM.

Georger, the 120 MPH terminal velocity you cited for skydivers at sea level only applies to those who maintain a "stable spread" all the way down.  If Cooper descended head first, he would probably be doing 180+ MPH.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 27, 2014, 02:38:49 PM
Broken Brief case at Tina Bar - found.

Here it is. Was sitting in plain sight all along.  Look down at the base of the tree. No guarantee it's Cooper's brief case, in fact it doesn't look black so maybe some old brief case washed up on Tina Bar, found during the excavation.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on November 27, 2014, 02:55:36 PM
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Broken Brief case at Tina Bar - found.

Here it is. Was sitting in plain sight all along.  Look down at the base of the tree. No guarantee it's Cooper's brief case, in fact it doesn't look black so maybe some old brief case washed up on Tina Bar, found during the excavation.

To me it looks like a one-suit suitcase type of thing.  It seems to be much larger than the attaché type thing that Cooper reportedly had.  But it does look like it has been damaged and this may be where the rumor started that associated it with Cooper.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 27, 2014, 05:00:46 PM
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Broken Brief case at Tina Bar - found.

Here it is. Was sitting in plain sight all along.  Look down at the base of the tree. No guarantee it's Cooper's brief case, in fact it doesn't look black so maybe some old brief case washed up on Tina Bar, found during the excavation.

To me it looks like a one-suit suitcase type of thing.  It seems to be much larger than the attaché type thing that Cooper reportedly had.  But it does look like it has been damaged and this may be where the rumor started that associated it with Cooper.

This is just one more example of how all kinds of stuff shows up on Tina Bar without one tangible explanation about how one thing arrived on Tina Bar, from where. Evidently nothing has ever been actually tracked from some place to Tina Bar ... like the migration of Geese?

Evidently the whole thing is random. I dont believe that for a minute!  ;)

   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 27, 2014, 05:42:05 PM
It's possible this case has photo equipment in for the dig. it appears as if something is in front of it? I don't have any software loaded on this computer yet to check it out. also appears to be another just to the back right. looks like the flip latch on a briefcase?

I enhanced it a little with an online program.....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 27, 2014, 06:54:38 PM
Interesting article dated February 13, 1980. pieces found as deep as 3 feet.......also claiming Brian's sister actually found the money.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19800213&id=QP4yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZYMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6378,3379551
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 28, 2014, 12:54:38 AM
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Interesting article dated February 13, 1980. pieces found as deep as 3 feet.......also claiming Brian's sister actually found the money

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19800213&id=QP4yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZYMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6378,3379551

Brian Ingram had no sister. He had a cousin named Denise, age 5. She was the daughter of Crystal Ingram spelled Crystal, who was married to Harold Ingram's brother. Crystal and Harold's brother were in the process of a divorce when the group minus Harold's brother, went for a outing at Tina Bar.


Crystal Ingram contacted SA Ralph Himmelsbach on February 13, 1980, and gave Himmelsbach a different account of the finding of the Cooper money. She told RH that it was her daughter Denise who had actually found the money first then called Brian's attention to it. She also disclosed that the Ingrams were holding Cooper twenties back they had not turned in. A meeting was set up for Crystal and she appeared at the appointed time with four more Cooper twenties, in behalf of Harold and Patrica Ingram. Crystal pressed her case in behalf of her daughter with a number of people including the media but nothing ever came of it.


     


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 28, 2014, 11:11:33 AM
I stand corrected. the article says Denise was Brian's Nephew. they do claim to change there opinion of Cooper jumping in the original area.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 28, 2014, 12:56:08 PM
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I stand corrected. the article says Denise was Brian's Nephew. they do claim to change there opinion of Cooper jumping in the original area.

The article is a little confusing. I think they are saying Brian is Crystal's nephew (by marriage).
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 28, 2014, 12:58:38 PM
Is Crystal Brian's Mother's sister's daughter  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on November 28, 2014, 03:05:17 PM
I'm new to the game so I have a question: Who believes the money arrived by dredging and why?, and who believes the money impacted there after the jump and was there all along and why?, and who believes the money got there by other means (planted or nature) and why?  I just want to make sure I'm not locking myself into an opinion while missing some basic info.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 28, 2014, 03:40:48 PM
I look at all options...

1) The money could have arrived via dredge according to evidence of what can go through the dredge, and the fact of the money being protected in the bag (possibly)

2) The flight path could be wrong and Cooper could of impacted around that area, or lost the money on the way down.

3) I don't believe a plant was involved. evidence of a debris field, money not really buried, a plant wouldn't "throw off" the investigation anymore than it already is.

4) Cooper could of jumped at the wrong time given the fact of timing vs dark, cloudy and no positive way he knew exactly where he was. McCoy kept a sharp eye on pinpointing his location with constant updates from the crew. the plane obviously crossed the river at one point, and you have money downstream from the plane?

5) The jump time is very suspect leading the jump closer to the Columbia than originally suspected. we could have a simple solution instead of making it complex? water doesn't always give up the dead. we could easily be overlooking the obvious.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: andrade1812 on November 30, 2014, 04:49:07 PM
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It's possible this case has photo equipment in for the dig. it appears as if something is in front of it? I don't have any software loaded on this computer yet to check it out. also appears to be another just to the back right. looks like the flip latch on a briefcase?

I enhanced it a little with an online program.....

Seems likely this was just a kit for collecting evidence. It looks like it's a metal hardcase, I use them to carry expensive optics in the field (I'm a birder), check out the hinge.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on November 30, 2014, 05:00:43 PM
I will make a quick post. Real progress on defining the Ingram find is being made. Solid new information of a forensic nature has been collected. I will present this information at some point in the future.

Happy Holidays.   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on November 30, 2014, 05:17:44 PM
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I will make a quick post. Real progress on defining the Ingram find is being made. Solid new information of a forensic nature has been collected. I will present this information at some point in the future.

Happy Holidays.

Sounds good G, don't keep us in the dark too long  8)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 02, 2014, 03:14:02 PM
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I will make a quick post. Real progress on defining the Ingram find is being made. Solid new information of a forensic nature has been collected. I will present this information at some point in the future.

Happy Holidays.
   

Sounds good G, don't keep us in the dark too long  8)

Grade (elevation) at Tina Bar matters. It is an unresolved issue that has plagued this case since work began in 2007-08. There is nothing at Tom's website that even addresses the basic issue of the profile(s) at Tina Bar. Each of the photos attached portrays a different grade at different locations on Tina Bar. So, the original photo of Brian sitting on a steep grade where he supposedly found the money, may be an accurate portrayal, after all ! That photo of Brian was previously criticized as "staged" and inaccurate especially in terms of grade, which may not be true at all! Why does any of this matter. ie issues of profile, grade, and elevation? It matters because of the basic issues of physics and hydrology involved in whatever scenario brought Cooper money to Tina Bar - that's why it matters! I will leave it at this ...

For one thing, these photos of Tina Bar allow us to place context on the comments of the agents who encountered the Ingram find at Tina Bar, first canvassed the scene and supposedly found fragments, and then performed an excavation of the site. Knowing the correct elevations involved allows us to provide important context on the place of the find itself, including the erosional history at Tina Bar 1971-80...   
   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 02, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
A yearly elevation would sure come in handy showing how much sand disappears each year.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 02, 2014, 06:08:43 PM
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A yearly elevation would sure come in handy showing how much sand disappears each year.

Do you mean elevation on Tina Bar? That varied depending on location.

Agents were concerned to know both the average erosion loss at Tina Bar and river elevation and flood records affecting the bar. Turned out neither Palmer or anyone else projected erosion loss at Tina Bar which is surprising; at least so far as I have been able to determine. The agents wanted to know but never got any data or estimates about that from anyone. Tom is the only one to concern himself with that, so far as I know. Erosion at Tina Bar has been a historical fact and the reason for beach renewal efforts, until that program was stopped because of the environmentalists. It matters because: did the Ingram money erode out from an earlier placement or was it as Palmer says a late arrival. Palmer was challenged by the agents on that point. So far as I know, Palmer first stated the money had arrived 'just before' it's discovery, then he backs off and says 'a year prior', then he backs off again and says 'with the last several years', then he backs off again and refers to the money having arrived 'much earlier'? The agents were looking for a date-certain!  :)  A little maddening. If I understand Tom's theory, he says the money arrived between 71 and 74 then eroded out. Tom places Palmer's dredging clay-lump layer as a much earlier-deeper strata! Tom seems to be saying by 1980 all dredging spoils were eroded and gone. ??? The issue is crucial. Either Tom is correct or Palmer is. They can;t both be correct.

What is needed here is an accurate comprehensive profile and dating of the strata in Feb 1980. The story of erosion at Tina Bar will help determine that.

The NEW issue of a higher elevation that previously thought also becomes crucial, in several ways. That goes directly to the issue of erosion (gravity + river force/flow), and to the issue of the fragment field found. It turns out the agents involved recorded their fragment field so it can now be placed in the context of higher elevation data, at a new higher elevation that previously thought ... the net effect of all of these factors is hopefully a more sensible and comprehensive account which agrees with what the agents actually found and recorded.
     
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 02, 2014, 06:23:04 PM
Well, according to them the dredge spoils have nothing to do with that area? I believe it does. I don't believe the money has been on the beach since 71. does anyone know how flooded this area was with the storms from 74 till 79? how long did it take each time to go back to normal water levels  :-\

They claim the sand wasn't pushed that far, so why is it brought up by Palmer ?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on December 02, 2014, 06:44:32 PM
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Well, according to them the dredge spoils have nothing to do with that area? I believe it does. I don't believe the money has been on the beach since 71. does anyone know how flooded this area was with the storms from 74 till 79? how long did it take each time to go back to normal water levels  :-\

They claim the sand wasn't pushed that far, so why is it brought up by Palmer ?

Apparently, the only way to now determine the daily river levels at Vancouver in the early 1970s is if a local newspaper published them routinely and if those papers were eventually microfilmed.  If this happened, it would probably be the Portland newspaper.  Does anyone know if such a thing happened? 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 02, 2014, 07:15:17 PM
This PDF only shows flooding in 72, and 74 :-\
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 02, 2014, 07:40:19 PM
According to Clark County's website for flooding, parcels etc. has a map you can view. it shows aerials from 1968,74,78 etc. what I found in the 1974 aerial shows a lot of beach missing around the money area, or the entire coastline for that matter. we need to verify the year this was taken. if it's right they put sand up and down the entire coastline.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 02, 2014, 08:00:17 PM
This photo is from 1996 showing the flood.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 02, 2014, 08:46:03 PM
Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 02, 2014, 10:54:11 PM
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If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Not necessarily prior.  By comparing the '74 with the one we've had for some time, you can see that the water is virtually right up to the tree closest to the water, which is at the boundary of the circle in the pic we've been using.  It appears that this pic you've found was taken when the river was at a higher level.

Note too that the 68 pic shows dredge spoil piles. edit:  Actually the northernmost of 3.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 02:34:27 AM
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Well, according to them the dredge spoils have nothing to do with that area? I believe it does. I don't believe the money has been on the beach since 71. does anyone know how flooded this area was with the storms from 74 till 79? how long did it take each time to go back to normal water levels  :-\

They claim the sand wasn't pushed that far, so why is it brought up by Palmer ?

Again, Palmer who should know a lot about erosion, is cited n journals as being an expert on sediment erosion, who was supposedly sent to help the USGS during Mr St Helens ... says not one word about erosion at Tina Bar. This will sound crass, or funny, but the closest he comes in the Palmer report is commentary about how one distinguishes newer from older strata (near the surface) by the presence of rusty vs non-rusted ... nails and old vs new aluminum cans! I laughed when I read this. Not one word about the erosion history at Tina Bar or on beachfronts, etc... nada. One must presume reading his report that he did not feel any discussion about erosion at Tina Bar mattered.

Again, Palmers says the dredge spoils and the money are entirely independent of each other.

Tom Kaye says the dredge spoils and the money are independent of each other, but because the dredge spoils did not exist in 1980 .... had all washed away!

Since nobody did any chemistry on the issue how are we to know?

The agents that excavated the beach did not concern themselves with this technical matters of geology, per se. They would not have know anything about strata identification except in crude terms ie. surface vs 4 feet below surface = different strata by common sense.

Interestingly however, two agents decided to dig trenches to try and determine the distribution of shards or fragments through the strata there, whatever those strata were and they did not know. One of the reason {Palmer was brought in, as agents explain it to me was: (1) to try and determine the distribution of fragments, and (2) to identify the strata present. So far as the two agents I'm talking to are concerned the frags were distributed in places to 4 feet deep, they say their trenches and frags found determined that... not just confined to the surface. So Palmer is brought in to shed light on the matter and (a) he never says one word about erosion or the formative history of Tina Bar, and (2) he never mentions fragments at all! Once Palmer found his clay-lump layer he thought that was a determiner and he wrapped up his work and left! The issue of frags and erosion never addressed at all in his report...

And of course Tom thinks fragments are a myth.

 

 

 
 

   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 02:35:52 AM
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This PDF only shows flooding in 72, and 74 :-\

nice find ...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 02:38:09 AM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

where did these come from? Are they dated other than year?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 04:43:40 AM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Question.  Can you place this photo on a larger photo of Tina Bar? Is north on the left with south on the right?

I see two areas on the grid being worked. I think I see the curve in the road at top just left of center with car parked to the right ?



 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 06:03:38 AM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

where did these come from? Are they dated other than year?



Clark County MapsOnline... http://gis.clark.wa.gov/mapsonline/?site=AerialPhotography&ext=1

They only give the year of the photo. the maps show this in the lower right corner.  "Esri, DeLorme, IFL, NGA, NOAA, USGS"

I know of USGS, and NOAA. DeLorme is famous for street mapping. I'm not familiar with  IFL, or Esri ... :-\
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 06:47:21 AM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Question.  Can you place this photo on a larger photo of Tina Bar? Is north on the left with south on the right?

I see two areas on the grid being worked. I think I see the curve in the road at top just left of center with car parked to the right ?

Yes, north is to the left in the photo. the road you see in the angled road leading to the beach on the overhead maps. the extreme right bottom of the photo would be close to where the northern tip of the spoil would have been. I'm guessing the the tree where several people are digging would most likely be where the briefcase is shown in another photo. it has a slight tilt to it similar to the one in the photo.

I would like to point out that these photo's are from a video that NMIwrecks found. he needs to be credited for this.... 8)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on December 03, 2014, 01:08:12 PM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Question.  Can you place this photo on a larger photo of Tina Bar? Is north on the left with south on the right?

I see two areas on the grid being worked. I think I see the curve in the road at top just left of center with car parked to the right ?

Yes, north is to the left in the photo. the road you see in the angled road leading to the beach on the overhead maps. the extreme right bottom of the photo would be close to where the northern tip of the spoil would have been. I'm guessing the the tree where several people are digging would most likely be where the briefcase is shown in another photo. it has a slight tilt to it similar to the one in the photo.

I would like to point out that these photo's are from a video that NMIwrecks found. he needs to be credited for this.... 8)

Compare this picture with the one labeled "http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4.0;attach=542;image" that I downloaded from a Shutter post on 11-26-2014.

They are both aerial pictures and appear to have been taken within minutes of each other based on the number of people on the beach and the length of the shadows of those people.  The time appears to have been a few minutes before sunset and probably within two or three days of the money find.

Perhaps an interested student of astronomy can pin down the exact direction the shadows are pointing from the above information.  But Shutter is correct in that North is to the left in Georger's picture.  North is to the top of the picture I have referenced above. 

While the center of the river is angled to about 2 degrees east of North at Tina Bar, the river shore line has a lot of twists and curves so caution should be used in stating the direction of the water's edge.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Question.  Can you place this photo on a larger photo of Tina Bar? Is north on the left with south on the right?

I see two areas on the grid being worked. I think I see the curve in the road at top just left of center with car parked to the right ?

Yes, north is to the left in the photo. the road you see in the angled road leading to the beach on the overhead maps. the extreme right bottom of the photo would be close to where the northern tip of the spoil would have been. I'm guessing the the tree where several people are digging would most likely be where the briefcase is shown in another photo. it has a slight tilt to it similar to the one in the photo.

I would like to point out that these photo's are from a video that NMIwrecks found. he needs to be credited for this.... 8)

ok thanks - credit to NMIwrecks
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 03:24:38 PM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Question.  Can you place this photo on a larger photo of Tina Bar? Is north on the left with south on the right?

I see two areas on the grid being worked. I think I see the curve in the road at top just left of center with car parked to the right ?

Yes, north is to the left in the photo. the road you see in the angled road leading to the beach on the overhead maps. the extreme right bottom of the photo would be close to where the northern tip of the spoil would have been. I'm guessing the the tree where several people are digging would most likely be where the briefcase is shown in another photo. it has a slight tilt to it similar to the one in the photo.

I would like to point out that these photo's are from a video that NMIwrecks found. he needs to be credited for this.... 8)

Compare this picture with the one labeled "http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4.0;attach=542;image" that I downloaded from a Shutter post on 11-26-2014.

They are both aerial pictures and appear to have been taken within minutes of each other based on the number of people on the beach and the length of the shadows of those people.  The time appears to have been a few minutes before sunset and probably within two or three days of the money find.

Perhaps an interested student of astronomy can pin down the exact direction the shadows are pointing from the above information.  But Shutter is correct in that North is to the left in Georger's picture.  North is to the top of the picture I have referenced above. 

While the center of the river is angled to about 2 degrees east of North at Tina Bar, the river shore line has a lot of twists and curves so caution should be used in stating the direction of the water's edge.

I have no idea what is north or south in these photos so placement of the dials is haphazard. It looks like it's past 2:00pm. Two sections within the grid seem to be being worked. That's a little puzzling. Nothing being worked in between. I wonder which grid is the Ingram find? My guess is the left grid (in original photo). I dont see a backhoe there yet? My guess is this photo is on the afternoon of the first day, or possibly the second before Palmer was there?

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 03:33:05 PM
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Again, this is not confirmed, but this is 3 photo's into one from 1968, 1974, and 1978. If they are correct it shows the 1974 photo prior to the dredging.

Question.  Can you place this photo on a larger photo of Tina Bar? Is north on the left with south on the right?

I see two areas on the grid being worked. I think I see the curve in the road at top just left of center with car parked to the right ?

Yes, north is to the left in the photo. the road you see in the angled road leading to the beach on the overhead maps. the extreme right bottom of the photo would be close to where the northern tip of the spoil would have been. I'm guessing the the tree where several people are digging would most likely be where the briefcase is shown in another photo. it has a slight tilt to it similar to the one in the photo.

I would like to point out that these photo's are from a video that NMIwrecks found. he needs to be credited for this.... 8)

Compare this picture with the one labeled "http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4.0;attach=542;image" that I downloaded from a Shutter post on 11-26-2014.

They are both aerial pictures and appear to have been taken within minutes of each other based on the number of people on the beach and the length of the shadows of those people.  The time appears to have been a few minutes before sunset and probably within two or three days of the money find.

Perhaps an interested student of astronomy can pin down the exact direction the shadows are pointing from the above information.  But Shutter is correct in that North is to the left in Georger's picture.  North is to the top of the picture I have referenced above. 

While the center of the river is angled to about 2 degrees east of North at Tina Bar, the river shore line has a lot of twists and curves so caution should be used in stating the direction of the water's edge.

Im having a hard time orienting myself with these photos - does 'B' show Palmer's trench? If that's the case this photo was taken on the 3rd day. I just find it strange two separate grids are being worked with nothing in between?  It looks like a small area left of (on the downstream side of) A has also been partially dug up, or raked?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 03, 2014, 03:59:01 PM
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I just find it strange two separate grids are being worked with nothing in between?  It looks like a small area left of (on the downstream side of) A has also been partially dug up, or raked?

Maybe B is at the center of the dredge pile.  Maybe to check if money could be found associated more directly with dredge spoils?

I think you're referring to the area up next to the bush or tree?  We've seen pix taken of hole digging and screening up next to some kind of folliage (including one taken from under the folliage).
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 03, 2014, 04:10:29 PM
Seeing the dredge spoils sites on the 68 aerial from Clark County GIS site made me wonder:

Has it ever been established that there was no dumping at T-bar in '72, '73 or earlier in '74 than "the" '74 dump we've heard of?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 05:03:55 PM
I don't think "B" is Palmer's trench. all of the activity is around "A". if you look at the black & white photo it appears a guy is in the trench ? he is lower than everyone around him. also the tree closest to the water can be seen in the background.

North & south is easy to figure out with the river included. water on the left, it's looking north. water on the right, south.

As for the new 74 photo. some things to take into consideration.

1) the original 74 photo is late September.
2) The spoils are easily seen.
3) The new 74 photo. could a flood occur after September? I'm not familiar with the seasons over there?
4) Dredging was from August 19-25.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 05:23:22 PM
Here is a photo a quickly made showing where I think the position of the flyby is from. I take it Tina Bar had, or has some sort of levee? it appears most of the agents parked up on it.

Also to add to the new 74 photo. if it ends up being high waters, once again it's right at the level of the tree's where the bag could get hung up while the water level slowly lowers?


The video is in our vault for viewing. it's the first one......
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 05:39:07 PM
Another good tool on the Clark County site is a measuring tool. you click once to start the mark, and then double click to finish. it will then calculate everything. If screenshot example is needed, just let me know  8)

Timeline for Tena Bar Dig

SUNDAY Feb 10th
Money found by Ingram family

MONDAY Feb 11th
No information available

TUESDAY Feb 12th
Sifting site
Found fragments under 3 feet of sand in afternoon (Oregonian)
Picture of agents digging up sand on south end half way to beach (Oregonian Wed) Sunny at days end
   
WEDNESDAY Feb 13th
Overcast, no shadows
Backhoe in place
Trench in place
Geologist on scene

Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)
FBI agent Baker from Portland said bundles were randomized (Oregonian)
“Trench dug 200 ft from site to study layers” (Oregonian Richards thurs)

THURSDAY Feb 14th
FBI calls off search late Thursday
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 03, 2014, 06:13:17 PM
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3) The new 74 photo. could a flood occur after September? I'm not familiar with the seasons over there?

In those days high levels would occur mostly in the fall and winter from rainfall and in early spring from snow melt (sometimes combined with rain).  The river's drainage area is huge, so it includes lots of land of both low and high elevations.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 06:17:39 PM
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3) The new 74 photo. could a flood occur after September? I'm not familiar with the seasons over there?

In those days high levels would occur mostly in the fall and winter from rainfall and in early spring from snow melt (sometimes combined with rain).  The river's drainage area is huge, so it includes lots of land of both low and high elevations.


Do you think they will be able to provide info on the photo. proper date, day, and month?  :-\

I guess we can just call... ;D

If you need assistance or have a "How do I?" question, please call the GIS Technical Support Line: (360) 397-2002 ext. 4652

Added: I called the number and nobody answered. I then hit zero for the operator and had a Cooper discussion with him  ;D he told me to leave a message, he switched me back over and I left a message along with my number.

Update: Clark County called me back. she couldn't verify the date at the moment. she said she would get back to me with more information tomorrow.

Update2: Debbie called me back from Clark County. the photo was taken May 5, 1974 Verified.... ;D
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 09:54:32 PM
Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.  8)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 03, 2014, 10:36:45 PM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 10:40:51 PM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

Supposedly the money was found 60 feet from the waterline. that's a rater large amount of coverage to reach?
Also when looking through the years, it's about the same spot where the erosion stops. a pattern if you will.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on December 03, 2014, 11:19:09 PM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

Supposedly the money was found 60 feet from the waterline. that's a rater large amount of coverage to reach?
Also when looking through the years, it's about the same spot where the erosion stops. a pattern if you will.

The USA Corps of Engineers water levels at the Vancouver gage are given as 14.3 feet on May 5, 1974 and 21.00 feet on June 22, 1974.  These agree with Shutter's numbers.  However, the "normal" water level at Tina Bar (in non-flooding conditions) is usually given as about 5 to 7 feet (instead of 16) with less than about a two foot daily fluctuation due to the tidal action from the Pacific.

Based on a guess made from looking at where the FBI agents were digging, they were about another 5+ feet above the river's water level.  So they would have been digging at about the 10-12+ feet level.

Also, it should be noted that the vertical datum for sea level was changed about 1988 and from looking at the USA COE's "gage" readings at Vancouver, it is not very clear (at least to me) how the "gage" readings are adjusted to indicate the present day values in the new vertical datum.  Hopefully, a hydrologist will explain this better.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 11:24:03 PM
I went back to the PDF. I think they are stating 16 feet as the normal level of flooding?


The Columbia River has a long history of flooding. Flood stage for the river, as routinely measured near the Port of Vancouver, is 16 feet. It was recently exceeded in May‐June 2011.
The following are the 20 highest historical crests of the Columbia, as well as what you can expect when the river reaches certain levels.
All information is courtesy of the National Weather Service.
1) June 13, 1948 31.00 feet
2) June 1, 1948 30.80 feet
3) Dec. 25, 1964 27.70 feet
4) June 4, 1956 27.60 feet
5) Feb. 9, 1996 27.20 feet
6) June 19, 1933 26.30 feet
7) May 31, 1928 26.20 feet
08) June 12, 1921 26.00 feet
9) June 26, 1950 25.90 feet
10) June 16, 1903 25.60 feet
11) Jan. 19, 1965 25.44 feet
12) June 22, 1917 25.30 feet
13) June 3, 1916 25.30 feet
14) June 13, 1913 25.20 feet
15) Jan. 3, 1997 22.55 feet
16) June 12, 1972 21.50 feet
17) June 22, 1974 21.10 feet
18) Jan. 24, 1970 19.54 feet
19) June 5, 1997 19.03 feet
20) Dec. 1, 1995 18.50 feet

Above 16 feet
Expect some flooding of islands and low areas, with minor impacts for parks and trails along the Columbia River.

Above 17 feet
Expect flooding of some lowland access roads, parking areas and trails on Sauvie Island, around Vancouver Lake and near downtown Vancouver. Access to some houseboat communities will be affected, along with recreation and camping areas at Cottonwood Beach near Washougal and on Government Island.

Above 18 feet
Expect flooding of undiked lowland, pasture and farmland to begin. Historically, the main areas affected have been from Sauvie Island downstream.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 03, 2014, 11:28:44 PM
here is another good PDF....

http://www.nwd-wc.usace.army.mil/nwp/Reports/Portland_Harbor.pdf
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 11:36:29 PM
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I went back to the PDF. I think they are stating 16 feet as the normal level of flooding?


The Columbia River has a long history of flooding. Flood stage for the river, as routinely measured near the Port of Vancouver, is 16 feet. It was recently exceeded in May‐June 2011.
The following are the 20 highest historical crests of the Columbia, as well as what you can expect when the river reaches certain levels.
All information is courtesy of the National Weather Service.
1) June 13, 1948 31.00 feet
2) June 1, 1948 30.80 feet
3) Dec. 25, 1964 27.70 feet
4) June 4, 1956 27.60 feet
5) Feb. 9, 1996 27.20 feet
6) June 19, 1933 26.30 feet
7) May 31, 1928 26.20 feet
08) June 12, 1921 26.00 feet
9) June 26, 1950 25.90 feet
10) June 16, 1903 25.60 feet
11) Jan. 19, 1965 25.44 feet
12) June 22, 1917 25.30 feet
13) June 3, 1916 25.30 feet
14) June 13, 1913 25.20 feet
15) Jan. 3, 1997 22.55 feet
16) June 12, 1972 21.50 feet
17) June 22, 1974 21.10 feet
18) Jan. 24, 1970 19.54 feet
19) June 5, 1997 19.03 feet
20) Dec. 1, 1995 18.50 feet

Above 16 feet
Expect some flooding of islands and low areas, with minor impacts for parks and trails along the Columbia River.

Above 17 feet
Expect flooding of some lowland access roads, parking areas and trails on Sauvie Island, around Vancouver Lake and near downtown Vancouver. Access to some houseboat communities will be affected, along with recreation and camping areas at Cottonwood Beach near Washougal and on Government Island.

Above 18 feet
Expect flooding of undiked lowland, pasture and farmland to begin. Historically, the main areas affected have been from Sauvie Island downstream.

excellent - thanks.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 11:39:45 PM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

Supposedly the money was found 60 feet from the waterline. that's a rater large amount of coverage to reach?
Also when looking through the years, it's about the same spot where the erosion stops. a pattern if you will.

The USA Corps of Engineers water levels at the Vancouver gage are given as 14.3 feet on May 5, 1974 and 21.00 feet on June 22, 1974.  These agree with Shutter's numbers.  However, the "normal" water level at Tina Bar (in non-flooding conditions) is usually given as about 5 to 7 feet (instead of 16) with less than about a two foot daily fluctuation due to the tidal action from the Pacific.

Based on a guess made from looking at where the FBI agents were digging, they were about another 5+ feet above the river's water level.  So they would have been digging at about the 10-12+ feet level.

Also, it should be noted that the vertical datum for sea level was changed about 1988 and from looking at the USA COE's "gage" readings at Vancouver, it is not very clear (at least to me) how the "gage" readings are adjusted to indicate the present day values in the new vertical datum.  Hopefully, a hydrologist will explain this better.

excellent. Would you care to speculate about erosion at Tina Bar (during any high water cycle) ???  :)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on December 03, 2014, 11:41:11 PM
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I went back to the PDF. I think they are stating 16 feet as the normal level of flooding?


The Columbia River has a long history of flooding. Flood stage for the river, as routinely measured near the Port of Vancouver, is 16 feet.

Okay, so the 16 foot reference is the "official flood stage" level.  This means that the money could have arrived at Tina Bar when the river was several feet below flood stage.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on December 03, 2014, 11:42:37 PM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

Supposedly the money was found 60 feet from the waterline. that's a rater large amount of coverage to reach?
Also when looking through the years, it's about the same spot where the erosion stops. a pattern if you will.

The USA Corps of Engineers water levels at the Vancouver gage are given as 14.3 feet on May 5, 1974 and 21.00 feet on June 22, 1974.  These agree with Shutter's numbers.  However, the "normal" water level at Tina Bar (in non-flooding conditions) is usually given as about 5 to 7 feet (instead of 16) with less than about a two foot daily fluctuation due to the tidal action from the Pacific.

Based on a guess made from looking at where the FBI agents were digging, they were about another 5+ feet above the river's water level.  So they would have been digging at about the 10-12+ feet level.

Also, it should be noted that the vertical datum for sea level was changed about 1988 and from looking at the USA COE's "gage" readings at Vancouver, it is not very clear (at least to me) how the "gage" readings are adjusted to indicate the present day values in the new vertical datum.  Hopefully, a hydrologist will explain this better.

excellent. Would you care to speculate about erosion at Tina Bar (during any high water cycle) ???  :)

Bad, really bad!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 03, 2014, 11:45:11 PM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

Supposedly the money was found 60 feet from the waterline. that's a rater large amount of coverage to reach?
Also when looking through the years, it's about the same spot where the erosion stops. a pattern if you will.

Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 04, 2014, 12:07:40 AM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

That has been a point of contention all along. Nobody wants to talk about it except to deny the Fazios ever spread anything on their beach, other than in 1974, but we know they received dredging sand (by contract) from other locations, and I believe JT set the date for the Fazio's getting into the sand business as '1976' ??  I asked JT to ask Al Fazio about this. JT stated the Fazio's had never spread dredging spoils on their beach except in '74.

I think Farflung had a similar thought.

Fact is, we dont know from where all dredging debris taken by the Faxio's came from, or the dates.

One basic question never answered is: does the Cooper money show signs (chemistry) of having been in contact with, or contaminated by, dredging debris? It's an important issue. Presumably since the money was never in contact with the dredging spoils and in one scenario didn't even exist on Tina Bar by 1980, by either Kaye or Palmer scenario, then there should be no sign whatever of dredging debris chemistry on the money? Maybe?



   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 04, 2014, 12:09:11 AM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.  8)

Here is the chart again -
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 04, 2014, 12:13:28 AM
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Another good tool on the Clark County site is a measuring tool. you click once to start the mark, and then double click to finish. it will then calculate everything. If screenshot example is needed, just let me know  8)

Timeline for Tena Bar Dig

SUNDAY Feb 10th
Money found by Ingram family

MONDAY Feb 11th
No information available

TUESDAY Feb 12th
Sifting site
Found fragments under 3 feet of sand in afternoon (Oregonian)
Picture of agents digging up sand on south end half way to beach (Oregonian Wed) Sunny at days end
   
WEDNESDAY Feb 13th
Overcast, no shadows
Backhoe in place
Trench in place
Geologist on scene

Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian)
FBI agent Baker from Portland said bundles were randomized (Oregonian)
“Trench dug 200 ft from site to study layers” (Oregonian Richards thurs)

THURSDAY Feb 14th
FBI calls off search late Thursday

I will get a timeline together also ...

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 04, 2014, 12:36:19 AM
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Now we have a confirmed date of May 5, 1974. I'll have Georger, or someone else help confirm any flooding during this period. the PDF chart I have shows high levels June 22, 1974 at 21.10 feet. the normal level is 16 feet. I think more sand was spread around than history has shown IMHO. the water level in May of 74 is right at the money hole.

Water up to the money wouldn't even be considered flooding.  Probably rather common high water level.  Remember that G. posted a graphic showing water levels at the Vancouver gage station over time.  About the sand spreading, it would not surprise me at all to find (if it were possible to find) that the Fazios spread some sand from out of their big "sandbox" (pile) after '74.   What they received into their pile could have come from afar on the river.

Supposedly the money was found 60 feet from the waterline. that's a rater large amount of coverage to reach?
Also when looking through the years, it's about the same spot where the erosion stops. a pattern if you will.

The USA Corps of Engineers water levels at the Vancouver gage are given as 14.3 feet on May 5, 1974 and 21.00 feet on June 22, 1974.  These agree with Shutter's numbers.  However, the "normal" water level at Tina Bar (in non-flooding conditions) is usually given as about 5 to 7 feet (instead of 16) with less than about a two foot daily fluctuation due to the tidal action from the Pacific.

Based on a guess made from looking at where the FBI agents were digging, they were about another 5+ feet above the river's water level.  So they would have been digging at about the 10-12+ feet level.

Also, it should be noted that the vertical datum for sea level was changed about 1988 and from looking at the USA COE's "gage" readings at Vancouver, it is not very clear (at least to me) how the "gage" readings are adjusted to indicate the present day values in the new vertical datum.  Hopefully, a hydrologist will explain this better.

excellent. Would you care to speculate about erosion at Tina Bar (during any high water cycle) ???  :)

Bad, really bad!

 ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 04, 2014, 08:09:11 AM
The 74 photo's clearly show sand collecting being done on the property. I don't think 1976 would be correct according to JT's statement.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 04, 2014, 02:21:33 PM
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The 74 photo's clearly show sand collecting being done on the property. I don't think 1976 would be correct according to JT's statement.

I have no idea then, when the Fazio began their sand business & collecting dredging sand...

On the issue of the Ingram find location something is wrong. If it was 40ft from the water line, Tom's graphic does not reflect that. Tom's gps position (verified by others) is 40 yards from the water line, not 40 feet. And in fact Tom never states 40 yards or 40 feet, or any other figure on his website - he only gives a gps coordinate and if you use his 50 yard scale line, then the find pin is "40 yards" from the water line, not 40 feet. I wish we could get this resolved somehow ...
 

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 04, 2014, 05:47:21 PM
Either JT is wrong, or it's possible that's when they took over the property? I don't know, but obviously you can see sand operations in the 74 photo's, and further back.

The money location is a question as well. I don't know about the beaches in Washington, but the sand is dry up past the wave line down here. how was the money found wet inches below, or just at the surface "soaked", "soggy" is what I'm reading often. the weather shows light rain during this period. would money "soaking wet' be "brittle" to the touch? it almost sounds as if it was dry prior to it's removal? seems to me it wouldn't be brittle in a soaking wet, or soggy condition?

The new 74 photo. are we saying it's flooded and covering existing beach front? or is it showing it's usual signs of erosion?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 04, 2014, 06:05:28 PM
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Either JT is wrong, or it's possible that's when they took over the property? I don't know, but obviously you can see sand operations in the 74 photo's, and further back.

The money location is a question as well. I don't know about the beaches in Washington, but the sand is dry up past the wave line down here. how was the money found wet inches below, or just at the surface "soaked", "soggy" is what I'm reading often. the weather shows light rain during this period. would money "soaking wet' be "brittle" to the touch? it almost sounds as if it was dry prior to it's removal? seems to me it wouldn't be brittle in a soaking wet, or soggy condition?

The new 74 photo. are we saying it's flooded and covering existing beach front? or is it showing it's usual signs of erosion?

I don't see the sand operation in the '74 pix.  In fact, the sand operation was located further south than your May 74 pic covers.  Are you referring to the circular slumps by the shore?  That is not the way the sand was placed after '74.  That approach was supposedly stopped after the '74 dump because of river water coming out of the dredge washing stuff (that was originally pulled out of the river) back down into the river and thereby "polluting" it. :-X  You can clearly see the sand operation further south in the '79 pic.

Much of the beach is covered in the May 74 aerial, but the level was low (apx .8') in the 9/6/74 aerial.  On the days when the money was found and the searching was done, the level was about 3.3'.  The levels had dropped for about 4 weeks from a high of about 13'.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 04, 2014, 06:13:10 PM
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 04, 2014, 06:28:40 PM
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.

I'm going by what I recall Carr stating about the money. it's true the location will change with the tide, or the waterline. the only way I could see trying to get a location this way would be using the tree line, or a specific tree to measure outward too?

Also found this:

About Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc
Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc

Business Information
Location Type   Unknown
Year Established   1957
Annual Revenue Estimate $10 to 20 million

They also run under the name of "FAZIO BROS. FAMILY, LLC"

I was talking about Fazio's being in the business, not activity on the beach, activity on Tina Bar.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 05, 2014, 12:38:29 AM
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.

The difference in Tom's chart is 120ft (40 yds) vs. 40ft (13.3 yds) within months of each other with no flooding involved?  The USGS photo we use is dated 9-27-79 vs. Ingram find on 2-14-80. Water levels should not matter on these dates?

 

 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 05, 2014, 03:31:05 AM
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Could be!!  However keep in mind everyone Ive ever considered knowledgeable about the find says the find was 40ft from the water's edge... not 60 feet, not 20 feet, not 40 yards as per Tom's chart!

Tom's photo shows a 50 yard line. If his line is correct his Ingram location is 40 yards from the water edge.

Was that "everyone" talking about the distance at the time the Ingrams found the money and the beach was searched?  That distance would not be the same in an aerial for a different time in which the water level was different.

I'm going by what I recall Carr stating about the money. it's true the location will change with the tide, or the waterline. the only way I could see trying to get a location this way would be using the tree line, or a specific tree to measure outward too?

Also found this:

About Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc
Fazio Brothers Sand CO Inc

Business Information
Location Type   Unknown
Year Established   1957
Annual Revenue Estimate $10 to 20 million

They also run under the name of "FAZIO BROS. FAMILY, LLC"

I was talking about Fazio's being in the business, not activity on the beach, activity on Tina Bar.

Prior to Tom's chart at his website I used Google scales for all measurements at Tina Bar. Then I started using Tom's 50 yard scale from his chart here. So I decided to check them against each other and they do not agree. I'm not sure which one is not accurate. Maybe both of them are not accurate? They should agree on a common photo.

In Tom's photo attached 50yd = 150ft = 77 pixel = 1.95 pixel per foot.  Using Google's scale in the same photo 1 foot = 1.68 pixel. That is a considerable difference.

Have you got any independent means to check Tom's 50yd (150ft) scale? Or an independent measurement of anything (building etc) on any photo of Tina Bar?

   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 05, 2014, 06:56:26 AM
I'm pretty sure this is the building you measured 196.7 is in the link below. the records show it's 220 feet long. the tool I use on the Clark County website measure the building at 220.86 feet. it's seems to be pretty accurate.

The Google Distance map measures the building at 219.334

The photo below is from the Clark County website.



http://gis.clark.wa.gov/gishome/customActions/act_PictureFrame.cfm?docpath=/ccimages/Assessor/Footprints/100/400/000/191484000_3.gif
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 05, 2014, 12:41:55 PM
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I'm pretty sure this is the building you measured 196.7 is in the link below. the records show it's 220 feet long. the tool I use on the Clark County website measure the building at 220.86 feet. it's seems to be pretty accurate.

The Google Distance map measures the building at 219.334

The photo below is from the Clark County website.



http://gis.clark.wa.gov/gishome/customActions/act_PictureFrame.cfm?docpath=/ccimages/Assessor/Footprints/100/400/000/191484000_3.gif

ok .... that improves things. Tom's scale and this new measure now agree - there is a 0.04 pixel per yard variance.

That's not enough to worry about for what we are doing. Thanks...

I'm going to return to a general principle illustrated by the attached. And that is, the location of the Ingram find is at the first natural catch point or point of resistance, with the direction of flow of the river across the surface of Tina Bar. Those trees and bushes offer the first open point of resistance to the flow of water on the sand bar.

Likewise, that location is the first natural point of resistance to flow, just north of the 1974 (north) dredge pile.

Coincidentally, the Ingram location is almost directly across from a wing dam that stretches out into the river (another point of resistance) where bottom sediment was dredged from the main channel and deposited at the north dredging pile on Tina Bar.

It's a set of remarkable coincidences.
   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 05, 2014, 03:05:54 PM
I am intrigued by the attached press photo because it shows two distinct areas being worked, either on the afternoon of the first day Tuesday Feb 12th, or on Wednesday Feb 13th ... perhaps before Palmer had arrived late on the 13th or perhaps the next day? To give context, it was the afternoon of Tuesday the 12th at 3:30pm, that the Ingrams and Himmelsbach are holding their press conference back in the Portland office. Agents had already been dispatched to Tina Bar before noon on that day ...   

The reason I'm so interested in this photo is because I have a description from two agents about what was done and found, on the afternoon of the 12th and into the next day (Feb 13), prior to Palmer arriving. It was on the afternoon of the 12th when allegedly the fragment field and most of the fragments were found. I have a description of where fragments were found, ether on or near the surface or at some depth at various distances and distances from the Ingram find. I have been trying to put this all in contact with the photo recently discovered. In fact I will post another press photo showing the grid work being done at Tina Bar.

We see work being done in sectors A & B. Sector B has been extensively worked and perhaps a trench there? Sector A shows what may be a few holes and short trenches, but nothing appears to be happening between sectors A & B - why? Was nothing found there. The work I see being done in Sector A agrees very well with accounts I have been given by the agents, presumably below and to the left (down stream) of the Ingram location. The extensive work being done in this photo in Sector B is somewhat of a surprise to me, given what I was told. And the large gap with no work done between A and B is surprising to me also.

Quite obviously something motivated work being done in sectors A & B, to the exclusion of the area between these sectors.

Let me post these two photos for comment -
   


 

   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 05, 2014, 06:08:38 PM
Didn't articles claim fragments were found near the waterline? I've heard so many different stories it's hard to get to the bottom.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 05, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 05, 2014, 09:48:00 PM
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McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

That statement alone should rule out any "plant" going on with the money find. based on seeing what occurs on the beaches of the Columbia it would be tricky trying to figure out when the money arrived. where was this info obtained?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 05, 2014, 10:01:25 PM
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Let me post these two photos for comment -

It's hard to tell what is happening at B, except for the trench and the backhoe at its west end.  Although the soil seems to be disturbed in both pics, there don't seem to be any people doing anything there except for 2 people in the pic taken from the west.  There also seems to be something like a large tarp spread out at the west end of the disturbed area.

Maybe someone thought the trench for Palmer should be dug a bit away from where money had been found, maybe to minimize impact on potential money finds?

Both areas grew in the time between the two pix, upgrade at A and downgrade at B.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 05, 2014, 10:13:26 PM
Large tarp might be some sort of sifting device?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 05, 2014, 11:40:04 PM
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Let me post these two photos for comment -

re. the pic taken from the north:

40 feet from the water edge would be at about the base of that tree in the foreground, or at the dark blob on the other side of the tree in the row just past the one where the row of people are working. [see the attachment] That row of people is about 20' from the water.  The whole beach is only about 65' wide.  40 yards would be twice as far from the water as the edge of the beach was.

It appears that the beach slope was something around 1:5.  This would put the water's edge about 16' further out in the '79 pic (since the water was about 3.3' lower on 9-27-79).
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 05, 2014, 11:43:57 PM
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Large tarp might be some sort of sifting device?

Palmer is the one in a suit coat with something in his hands ... right.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 05, 2014, 11:52:55 PM
Correct....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 06, 2014, 12:10:40 AM
Looks like a pile of dirt from ditch diggin in the background (last pic Georger posted).
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Tom Kaye on December 07, 2014, 11:33:23 PM

Well it looks like  you guys have gotten pretty serious about the money find.

Tom Kaye
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 11:34:22 PM
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Well it looks like  you guys have gotten pretty serious about the money find.

Tom Kaye


Hi Tom, I guess you got my email....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Tom Kaye on December 07, 2014, 11:35:29 PM

Yes but coincidentally I got back to the forum last night and read through the Tena Bar thread.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 11:39:33 PM
What did you think about our discussion, and have you seen the photo I found dated 5-5-74?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 11:47:21 PM
Tom: Do you have a list of companies/cities/regions where the tie could have picked up the titanium?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2014, 09:39:24 PM
To 377  ;)

Apparently we have some evidence of a debris field, as well as fragments found at the waterline. perhaps Georger can fill in the gaps, but Bruce responded to my question about pieces found at the waterline...

Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

Shutter

Looking at some recent photo's of the dig you can clearly see them focused on an area at the tide-line indicating something of interest had been found. you can see several of the photo's one page back...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 09, 2014, 12:34:30 AM
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To 377  ;)

Apparently we have some evidence of a debris field, as well as fragments found at the waterline. perhaps Georger can fill in the gaps, but Bruce responded to my question about pieces found at the waterline...

Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

Shutter

Looking at some recent photo's of the dig you can clearly see them focused on an area at the tide-line indicating something of interest had been found. you can see several of the photo's one page back...

Could you point this out on a photo?

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 09, 2014, 01:18:19 AM
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To 377  ;)

Apparently we have some evidence of a debris field, as well as fragments found at the waterline. perhaps Georger can fill in the gaps, but Bruce responded to my question about pieces found at the waterline...

Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

Shutter

Looking at some recent photo's of the dig you can clearly see them focused on an area at the tide-line indicating something of interest had been found. you can see several of the photo's one page back...

Several agents tell me the fragments were placed in "check envelopes" ("we called them"). "What is a check envelope", I asked. "Reply: 'they were plastic and about the size of a regular envelope you would place a check in, that's where they got the name, only a little larger and sealed with evidence tape." Those envelopes may have been sent to DC from the Seattle office for analysis. Everything we collected was transferred to Seattle. I assume it was the same for the Seattle guys .... all of the other money was sent to DC for analysis so I assume the fragment envelopes would have gone there too.



 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 09, 2014, 04:44:22 PM
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To 377  ;)

Apparently we have some evidence of a debris field, as well as fragments found at the waterline. perhaps Georger can fill in the gaps, but Bruce responded to my question about pieces found at the waterline...

Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

Shutter

Looking at some recent photo's of the dig you can clearly see them focused on an area at the tide-line indicating something of interest had been found. you can see several of the photo's one page back...

Several agents tell me the fragments were placed in "check envelopes" ("we called them"). "What is a check envelope", I asked. "Reply: 'they were plastic and about the size of a regular envelope you would place a check in, that's where they got the name, only a little larger and sealed with evidence tape." Those envelopes may have been sent to DC from the Seattle office for analysis. Everything we collected was transferred to Seattle. I assume it was the same for the Seattle guys .... all of the other money was sent to DC for analysis so I assume the fragment envelopes would have gone there too.

continuing ...

Q: How many of these envelopes would there have been?
A: Well remember I left at the end of the second day. By that time we had enough envelopes to fill a small shoebox.
Q: That many? Oh yes. Easily. How big a volume are we really talking about? Was more than one fragment placed in an envelope or did each fragment get it's own envelope?
A: More than one fragment was put in an envelope. Remember, most of these fragments were no bigger than a quarter or a half dollar, some were larger, and most were smaller, the size of a 'dime' or so. Multiple fragments to an envelope, and the total volume of fragments could have been put into a thick 8x11 manilla mailing envelope and that is probably how they were sent through our system to Washington.
Q: Would that envelope have been bulging?
A: Well yes, thick, but not too thick. There were so many fragments it was impossible to get them all. It was taking a lot of time to collect them. About the time Palmer arrived a decision was made to stop collecting fragments unless something of a dramatic nature turned up, but that never happened. More bundles was never found and nothing else of Cooper himself or his chute et cetera. So when Palmer arrived the nature of the excavation changed, Palmer brought in a backhoe and tractor, and Palmer was more concerned with identifying the strata on the beach. We had already dug trenches because one of my concerns was how the fragments were distributed through the strata. We had already found a pretty even distribution through the strata down to about 2-3 feet at several locations. I thought that was important to know because I wanted to know how the fragments were distributed whether they were just on the surface, or distributed deeper through the layers at the sand bar, but all of this was taking a lot of time and when we failed to find anything of a dramatic nature we needed to wrap this up, so priorities changed.
Q: Were any serial numbers visible on these fragments, beyond the Ingram bills themselves?
A: Yes. We kept a list. In several cases whole serial numbers but usually pieces of serial numbers. This is something we were trying to determine, how much money was there at Tina Bar. If every fragment was one more bill, then there was a 'helluva lot' of money there on Tina Bar, but one bill can also make a lot of fragments and we were sensitive to that also. It was the 'places' were were finding fragments and the fact that fragments were distributed through the layers, sometimes far away from the Ingram money itself. That's why we made a grid in the first place to try and build a picture of the debris field.
A: Let me say this. All of this was a lot of time - a lot of time! That's why when Palmer arrived the strategy shifted. Nothing of a dramatic nature had turned up after two days, so the order came down to let Palmer set the agenda and wrap this up. Based on what had been found I've always thought that was the right call. Keep in mind we were having to deal with all the press also - that was taking a lot of time!
Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around. That's just my personal opinion. Something explains those fragments, and their distribution in the layers we dug into. I thought that money came up with the dredging piled on that beach, and a lot of that work was done at night when you wouldn't see what was there. Palmer then arrived and decided that wasn't the case. To me it's still an open question.
A: We didn't find anything of Cooper himself, except that money. Dna wasn't being used in those days. But, I've always wished that money and those fragments could have been tested for dna. Something of Cooper himself.               

...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 09, 2014, 06:25:33 PM
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Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

What did McPheters mean by "the High-Tide line"?  Was there a sign on the beach saying "HIGH TIDE LINE"?  Vague statements aren't worth much.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 09, 2014, 09:39:11 PM
My understanding was the high tide line that McPheters was working was higher up on the beach than the Ingram find area. This tide line was the most recent "high-tide" wash-up area.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 09, 2014, 09:39:37 PM
Georger, who are you quoting? Dorwin Schroeder?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: andrade1812 on December 09, 2014, 09:45:31 PM
Quote
We didn't find anything of Cooper himself, except that money. Dna wasn't being used in those days. But, I've always wished that money and those fragments could have been tested for dna. Something of Cooper himself.       

Speaking of evidence that FBI agents are not scientists, the belief that Cooper's DNA would travel through the air or through the rope, through his clothes, through the bag, then get onto the bills, then it would stay on the bills without decaying in a wet and ecologically active environment for almost a decade... *facepalm*
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 12:58:28 AM
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Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

What did McPheters mean by "the High-Tide line"?  Was there a sign on the beach saying "HIGH TIDE LINE"?  Vague statements aren't worth much.

That's what I wondered too -
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 01:04:28 AM
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Bruce said:

McPheters said he dug at the High-Tide line and found a dozen or so fragments.

What did McPheters mean by "the High-Tide line"?  Was there a sign on the beach saying "HIGH TIDE LINE"?  Vague statements aren't worth much.

The Fazio's said the Ingram money was found  'on the tide line from a few days ago '! They tried to convince everyone the money had arrived just days before.

That may define what the tide line was approx. Feb 14 1980 ???

One question is: would fragments even float? To be moved around, or float up from a lower elevation, along a tide line? I dont quite buy that scenario ? I would have to see it ....




Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 10, 2014, 01:09:13 AM
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...
Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around.

I don't remember.  What time of day was it when the Ingrams found the money?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 01:09:47 AM
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Quote
We didn't find anything of Cooper himself, except that money. Dna wasn't being used in those days. But, I've always wished that money and those fragments could have been tested for dna. Something of Cooper himself.       

Speaking of evidence that FBI agents are not scientists, the belief that Cooper's DNA would travel through the air or through the rope, through his clothes, through the bag, then get onto the bills, then it would stay on the bills without decaying in a wet and ecologically active environment for almost a decade... *facepalm*

No. The agent is wondering if parts of Cooper's body or blood had been in contact with the money. A good part of the excavation was motivated by a desire to look for Cooper's body, body parts, chute or pieces of the chute, the brief case, or any other artifact of the hijacking ... not just money. Some agents wondered if the money was there maybe parts of Cooper were too. The reason for this agent's comment is possible serological contact between the money and Cooper himself (post mortem).

Tosaw had a similar thought which motivated him to look for Cooper's body in areas adjacent to Tina Bar.
 


 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 01:12:08 AM
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...
Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around.

I don't remember.  What time of day was it when the Ingrams found the money?

They (primarily Harold) reported about 3:30pm on Sunday afternoon. 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 10, 2014, 01:21:32 AM
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The Fazio's said the Ingram money was found  'on the tide line from a few days ago '! They tried to convince everyone the money had arrived just days before.

That may define what the tide line was approx. Feb 14 1980 ???

One question is: would fragments even float? To be moved around, or float up from a lower elevation, along a tide line? I dont quite buy that scenario ? I would have to see it ....

I would think only dry fragments might float, which would probably mean only fragments on the surface.

About the "high tide line," I suspect that it might have been a 10'-20' band of beach that one of the pix we've seen shows as being strewn with short pieces of branches.  But there are a few different elevations that might plausibly have been called a "high tide line" when the water level is mostly the result of things other than tide.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 10, 2014, 01:23:32 AM
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...
Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around.

I don't remember.  What time of day was it when the Ingrams found the money?

They (primarily Harold) reported about 3:30pm on Sunday afternoon.

So, they should have been able to see fragments on the surface.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 01:24:58 AM
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The Fazio's said the Ingram money was found  'on the tide line from a few days ago '! They tried to convince everyone the money had arrived just days before.

That may define what the tide line was approx. Feb 14 1980 ???

One question is: would fragments even float? To be moved around, or float up from a lower elevation, along a tide line? I dont quite buy that scenario ? I would have to see it ....

I would think only dry fragments might float, which would probably mean only fragments on the surface.

About the "high tide line," I suspect that it might have been a 10'-20' band of beach that one of the pix we've seen shows as being strewn with short pieces of branches.  But there are a few different elevations that might plausibly have been called a "high tide line" when the water level is mostly the result of things other than tide.

exactly...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 01:31:18 AM
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...
Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around.

I don't remember.  What time of day was it when the Ingrams found the money?

They (primarily Harold) reported about 3:30pm on Sunday afternoon.

So, they should have been able to see fragments on the surface.

Agents wondered if the Ingrams had been alerted by seeing fragments then were strolling looking, poking around etc. I mean what is the probability of deciding to build a fire then having your kid scrape out an area which just happens to be on top of bundles of Cooper twenties? That's like winning the lottery.

GreyCop at Vancouver focuses on that low probability to claim a neighbor of his and the Ingrams were in cahoots, one planted the money, and sent the Ingrams to find it ... all cut and pre planned.   :)

The fact is, lacking anything to the contrary and suddenly faced with a whole new dimension in the Cooper case, Himmelsbach etal did not wish to argue with Harold and Pat. Their story was accepted, a press conference called with Harold very nervous ... and history was made. Nothing really surfaced, not even the intervention of Crystal Ingram, to change the facts of Harold's story.

Now if it was a plant! ........... then Tom's suggestion a lot more facts are yet to be found is totally appropriate.
But the physical evidence just does not support a plant, to me.
 
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 02:42:34 AM
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The Fazio's said the Ingram money was found  'on the tide line from a few days ago '! They tried to convince everyone the money had arrived just days before.

That may define what the tide line was approx. Feb 14 1980 ???

One question is: would fragments even float? To be moved around, or float up from a lower elevation, along a tide line? I dont quite buy that scenario ? I would have to see it ....

I would think only dry fragments might float, which would probably mean only fragments on the surface.

About the "high tide line," I suspect that it might have been a 10'-20' band of beach that one of the pix we've seen shows as being strewn with short pieces of branches.  But there are a few different elevations that might plausibly have been called a "high tide line" when the water level is mostly the result of things other than tide.

Hom quote: I would think only dry fragments might float, which would probably mean only fragments on the surface.

Attached is a weathered fragment (crop) from a Cooper twenty. Note the construction and flakes ready to drop off...
This Federal Reserve note Paper is made from 75% cotton and 25% linen fibers. Cotton fibres have a twist and a linear fold or pocket which can trap air (thus the insulating power).
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 10, 2014, 09:20:19 AM
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Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around. That's just my personal opinion. Something explains those fragments, and their distribution in the layers we dug into. I thought that money came up with the dredging piled on that beach, and a lot of that work was done at night when you wouldn't see what was there. Palmer then arrived and decided that wasn't the case. To me it's still an open question.
A: We didn't find anything of Cooper himself, except that money. Dna wasn't being used in those days. But, I've always wished that money and those fragments could have been tested for dna. Something of Cooper himself.               
...

What is the most likely scenario for the existence and location of the fragments?  Could the "money pile" have been bigger and seasonal rains washed the decaying fragments away from the main cache?  This seems most likely to me, but is there another scenario?

If Cooper's body decomposed near the money, then there is a chance that some of his DNA could have migrated onto the money.  If I get this part wrong, please correct me, but if no diatoms were detected on the money, then it possibly came out of the river protected somehow, or it originally landed out of the river's waters.  The only water it would have been exposed to is rainwater, because high water would have exposed it to diatoms.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 04:01:12 PM
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Q: Do you think the Ingrams had seen fragments of money on the surface and followed that to find the bundles?
A: Yes. That's exactly what I have always thought. The fragments were easy to see on the surface especially in the area around the Brian find. You would have had to have been blind not to see them. I think that's what clued them into looking and poking around. That's just my personal opinion. Something explains those fragments, and their distribution in the layers we dug into. I thought that money came up with the dredging piled on that beach, and a lot of that work was done at night when you wouldn't see what was there. Palmer then arrived and decided that wasn't the case. To me it's still an open question.
A: We didn't find anything of Cooper himself, except that money. Dna wasn't being used in those days. But, I've always wished that money and those fragments could have been tested for dna. Something of Cooper himself.               
...

What is the most likely scenario for the existence and location of the fragments?  Could the "money pile" have been bigger and seasonal rains washed the decaying fragments away from the main cache?  This seems most likely to me, but is there another scenario?

If Cooper's body decomposed near the money, then there is a chance that some of his DNA could have migrated onto the money.  If I get this part wrong, please correct me, but if no diatoms were detected on the money, then it possibly came out of the river protected somehow, or it originally landed out of the river's waters.  The only water it would have been exposed to is rainwater, because high water would have exposed it to diatoms.  Thoughts?

Tom never said there were no diatoms, he only said he didn't see/find any .... that he was sure were diatoms? Tom hedged ...   Frankly, either there are or there aren't. Since diatoms are prolific and endemic to the environment the conditions under which there would be no diatoms is rather specific, if not curious, if not a clue. Palmer did not cite diatoms either. No FBI lab report that I have heard about mentions diatoms either. Tom's test money exposed to the river showed diatoms.

All I know is Palmer said the upper active layer of sand on a beach is sterile (meaning relatively bacteria free), he claimed the money had just arrived (maybe missing the previous diatom season, 1979), the bills had somehow escaped all previous diatom exposure, and/or  where the money was prior to discovery was oxygen and sunlight free ?  My feeling is this is all going to come back to Tom's hedge  that he just didn't see any diatoms on his three bills ?  This leaves the possibility that the rest of the Cooper money is thriving in diatoms!  ;)

Maybe there will be a recall on all Cooper money?  Maybe the manufacturer forgot to add the diatoms?



         
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 10, 2014, 06:57:37 PM
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What is the most likely scenario for the existence and location of the fragments?  Could the "money pile" have been bigger and seasonal rains washed the decaying fragments away from the main cache?  This seems most likely to me, but is there another scenario?

I think dispersal by rains (or, by the latest water level crest) could occur only if the original money mass were at the surface.   I think more likely the sand/soil in which the money was all together got "churned" and dispersed into the positions of the eventual money/fragment finds.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 10, 2014, 08:44:19 PM
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I think dispersal by rains (or, by the latest water level crest) could occur only if the original money mass were at the surface.   I think more likely the sand/soil in which the money was all together got "churned" and dispersed into the positions of the eventual money/fragment finds.

That makes sense.  I was thinking along the lines of the bar being built up with dredged material and over the years, rainfall washing the surface into the river, maybe a few millimeters at a time.  A heavy rainfall when the money was near the surface might wash some of the fragments toward the river, leaving the big clumps of bills together.  I don't think the money could have been exposed for more than weeks, without someone noticing it.  Is that plausible?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on December 10, 2014, 09:42:54 PM
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I think dispersal by rains (or, by the latest water level crest) could occur only if the original money mass were at the surface.   I think more likely the sand/soil in which the money was all together got "churned" and dispersed into the positions of the eventual money/fragment finds.

That makes sense.  I was thinking along the lines of the bar being built up with dredged material and over the years, rainfall washing the surface into the river, maybe a few millimeters at a time.  A heavy rainfall when the money was near the surface might wash some of the fragments toward the river, leaving the big clumps of bills together.  I don't think the money could have been exposed for more than weeks, without someone noticing it.  Is that plausible?

For the record, when Meyer Louie and I visited Tina Bar in July, 2013, we were told by an old timer there that people were at Tina Bar practically ever day, including himself.  So it is definitely a given that anything new at Tina Bar would have been noticed immediately.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 10, 2014, 11:20:30 PM
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I think dispersal by rains (or, by the latest water level crest) could occur only if the original money mass were at the surface.   I think more likely the sand/soil in which the money was all together got "churned" and dispersed into the positions of the eventual money/fragment finds.

That makes sense.  I was thinking along the lines of the bar being built up with dredged material and over the years, rainfall washing the surface into the river, maybe a few millimeters at a time.  A heavy rainfall when the money was near the surface might wash some of the fragments toward the river, leaving the big clumps of bills together.  I don't think the money could have been exposed for more than weeks, without someone noticing it.  Is that plausible?

For the record, when Meyer Louie and I visited Tina Bar in July, 2013, we were told by an old timer there that people were at Tina Bar practically ever day, including himself.  So it is definitely a given that anything new at Tina Bar would have been noticed immediately.

That is what Ive always thought too, based on conversation with family and others who used the bar for fishing.



Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 10, 2014, 11:33:07 PM
You might have to copy the photo to read the descriptions on it....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 04:37:20 PM
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You might have to copy the photo to read the descriptions on it....

Is there a link where we can get a full-sized working copy of this?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 04:57:09 PM
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You might have to copy the photo to read the descriptions on it....

Is there a link where we can get a full-sized working copy of this?

I believe it's from the Clark County website from what I can recall. I've had it about 6 months I guess. I forgot I had it  :-[
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 05:00:53 PM
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What is the most likely scenario for the existence and location of the fragments?  Could the "money pile" have been bigger and seasonal rains washed the decaying fragments away from the main cache?  This seems most likely to me, but is there another scenario?

I think dispersal by rains (or, by the latest water level crest) could occur only if the original money mass were at the surface.   I think more likely the sand/soil in which the money was all together got "churned" and dispersed into the positions of the eventual money/fragment finds.

The idea of churning could be important - the question is when & how?  My guess is evidence of churning might be reflected in a (highly churned) cross-bedded layer. The problem is I see no evidence of such a layer. Palmer found a cross-bedded layer (6-24") below the upper active layer (0-6" deep). That cross bedded layer represents consecutive periods of wave and high water events, I assume. Was there churning from some single event in that layer? A few closeup photos show air pockets within what may be Palmer's 'cross bedded' layer, but is this evidence for churning? (I don't know). I will try to repeat the prior DZ post on these air pockets when I get the time - - - hate to bore the people on this!

Of similar and related interest is Tom's 2010? photo showing strata at Tina Bar. (See photos attached) I have taken the background in Tom's photo and moved it forward to show a continuous slice of strata-time. 'B' is the clay layer Tom claims was Palmer's clay-lump layer, which Palmer attributed to the dredge layer. And above this layer at 'A' is what looks like a thick cross-bedded layer? Is 'B' Palmer's "cross bedded" layer? Could churning have occurred in that layer? Was that the layer where Cooper money landed in time, to be churned and dispersed? To my eyes even though these cross-bedded layers show cross bedding, they look like consolidated layers to me with little evidence of churning? But I am no geologist. I'm just trying to make some sense of what I see and people are presenting.

I will post closeup photos taken of Palmer's trench later tonight if possible ...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 05:07:10 PM
Dredge map
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 05:14:20 PM
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Dredge map

Look! You are posting graphics that are worthless - unusable - cant see a damned thing in them !

PLEASE POST THE LINKS SO WE MAY DOWNLOAD FULL SCALE COPIES THAT ARE USEFUL TO ANY PURPOSE.

You obviously can see the graphics you are posting. The problem is - WE CANT! All we get here is a mini-copy of what looks like a graphic that might be useful?

Or increase the upload space to 1mb ?



 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 05:39:58 PM
I explained it might be hard to read and should copy the photo. I also explained I've had these photo's for some time, and forgot I had them. I'm not at home at the moment, or on my home computer. these photo's were on my laptop and I forgot to transfer them. I see them fine, so I'm not at your house to see what is on your computer. dropping a house on me isn't going to solve the problem.

The last post was incomplete, and I didn't know it posted till I returned and seen it posted.

Good Evening!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 11, 2014, 07:25:06 PM
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The idea of churning could be important - the question is when & how?  My guess is evidence of churning might be reflected in a (highly churned) cross-bedded layer. The problem is I see no evidence of such a layer.

I was thinking of just the mixing that would occur by multiple stages of moving the material containing the money.  Like being picked up serially by a dredge, maybe being spread out in a dredge, being spread out when pumped on shore, being spread by a bulldozer blade, etc.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 12, 2014, 09:15:31 AM
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The idea of churning could be important - the question is when & how?  My guess is evidence of churning might be reflected in a (highly churned) cross-bedded layer. The problem is I see no evidence of such a layer.

I was thinking of just the mixing that would occur by multiple stages of moving the material containing the money.  Like being picked up serially by a dredge, maybe being spread out in a dredge, being spread out when pumped on shore, being spread by a bulldozer blade, etc.

well the action of a dredge and then moving stuff around with a tractor would tend to churn things.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 12, 2014, 09:22:32 AM
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I explained it might be hard to read and should copy the photo. I also explained I've had these photo's for some time, and forgot I had them. I'm not at home at the moment, or on my home computer. these photo's were on my laptop and I forgot to transfer them. I see them fine, so I'm not at your house to see what is on your computer. dropping a house on me isn't going to solve the problem.

The last post was incomplete, and I didn't know it posted till I returned and seen it posted.

Good Evening!

Here is how it appears to me as received. Nothing discernible.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find (the dredging dwg post)
Post by: hom on December 13, 2014, 04:53:13 PM
same here
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find (the dredging dwg post)
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 05:33:46 PM
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same here

We are restricted in bandwidth for attachments - will just have to live with that - Shutter has enough demands on him in any event. So I will go along with the flow and keep my yap shut ---  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 07:21:57 PM
Ok, I'm home now and looking at the photo's. the first one showing the elevations seems to be decent. the dredge map shows up pretty well, but it's completely out of focus with the legends. it looks about the same on my old school laptop I had this on. (Toshiba year 2007)

I will send you all the files in the original format (TIF) they have to be really blown up to read the legends on the dredge maps (2 of them) don't do anything to them. just click on them, and use the magnifying glass thingy....

Even though all these websites claim to have "unlimited space" they can still refuse to add extra hard drives. so, I'm not going to up the limits on the photo's. they eat a lot of space. I'll contact them to insure we no issues. nothing to panic about though.

I already filled one folder. I put zero for maximum. meaning it will not fill up, or alert me it's full.  8)

The file is 7.58 mb's. if anyone else wishes to view these files just let me know.....
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 13, 2014, 11:57:52 PM
Can you "zip" 'em up?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 12:16:14 AM
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Ok, I'm home now and looking at the photo's. the first one showing the elevations seems to be decent. the dredge map shows up pretty well, but it's completely out of focus with the legends. it looks about the same on my old school laptop I had this on. (Toshiba year 2007)

I will send you all the files in the original format (TIF) they have to be really blown up to read the legends on the dredge maps (2 of them) don't do anything to them. just click on them, and use the magnifying glass thingy....

Even though all these websites claim to have "unlimited space" they can still refuse to add extra hard drives. so, I'm not going to up the limits on the photo's. they eat a lot of space. I'll contact them to insure we no issues. nothing to panic about though.

I already filled one folder. I put zero for maximum. meaning it will not fill up, or alert me it's full.  8)

The file is 7.58 mb's. if anyone else wishes to view these files just let me know.....

everything came thru well - thanks!
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 12:16:44 AM
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Can you "zip" 'em up?

yes will send if Shutter hasn't ...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 14, 2014, 02:59:32 PM
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Can you "zip" 'em up?

yes will send if Shutter hasn't ...

Please do.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 14, 2014, 03:03:20 PM
Attached: water levels at and around the time of the find and search.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 17, 2014, 10:06:56 PM
Hominid, did Georger send you the files, or do you need me too? we might both be thinking the other sent it  ;D
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 12:03:23 AM
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Hominid, did Georger send you the files, or do you need me too? we might both be thinking the other sent it  ;D

No I didnt yet but will do ... Im guilty... go ahead if you want ... just so he gets them...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 25, 2014, 01:12:06 PM
Interesting article here. Chicago Daily Herald Feb. 15, 1980

From Sluggo's site...One bundle found.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 26, 2014, 03:03:04 PM
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Interesting article here. Chicago Daily Herald Feb. 15, 1980

From Sluggo's site...One bundle found.

Why is it interesting to you?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 26, 2014, 06:05:26 PM
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Interesting article here. Chicago Daily Herald Feb. 15, 1980

From Sluggo's site...One bundle found.

Why is it interesting to you?

Well, the story basically is told as 3 bundles found. the I read Carr stating 4 bundles found. then I stumble on this article. I'm not sure everyone has read it, so I posted it. so, yes, I find it interesting.

Acceptable?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: andrade1812 on December 26, 2014, 06:17:56 PM
There are too many inconsistencies to trust any of the anecdotes about the original find. Kaye's analysis suggests there were at least two bundles. That's about all I believe anymore.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 26, 2014, 06:46:51 PM
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There are too many inconsistencies to trust any of the anecdotes about the original find. Kaye's analysis suggests there were at least two bundles. That's about all I believe anymore.

Hmm, where is the reference to only two bundles?

Here is what I see on Kaye's site...

Fact: Three bundles of 20 dollar bills were found just below the surface of the sand on Tena Bar in 1980.
Fact: The bundles were identified as D.B. Cooper's because the FBI had recorded the serial numbers and the bills matched.
Fact: Sand was dredged from the Columbia River and dumped on Tena Bar in 1974.
FBI Transcript: The dredging sands were pushed 50 yards up and down the beach.
Interpretation: If the money find was substantially more than 50 yards from the dredging sands, it could not have been dredged from the river.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: andrade1812 on December 26, 2014, 07:08:55 PM
I'm specifically referring to the bundle reconstruction he created based on the bills he was given. Any personal anecdotes about how the bills were found I discount, not because of any malicious intent on the part of the Ingrams, the accounts just vary too much (He and his cousin versus just him finding the money, one bundle, three bundles, rubber bands, no rubber bands, etc)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 26, 2014, 07:32:26 PM
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I'm specifically referring to the bundle reconstruction he created based on the bills he was given. Any personal anecdotes about how the bills were found I discount, not because of any malicious intent on the part of the Ingrams, the accounts just vary too much (He and his cousin versus just him finding the money, one bundle, three bundles, rubber bands, no rubber bands, etc)

Understood, I was trying to understand the two bundle reference. just imagine the stories flying around with Hoffa. I'll bet some arguments flare up with that case.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 27, 2014, 01:18:48 AM
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Interesting article here. Chicago Daily Herald Feb. 15, 1980

From Sluggo's site...One bundle found.

Why is it interesting to you?

Well, the story basically is told as 3 bundles found. the I read Carr stating 4 bundles found. then I stumble on this article. I'm not sure everyone has read it, so I posted it. so, yes, I find it interesting.

Acceptable?

I'm not on the acceptability squad.   Seems to me a fine idea to post what maybe everyone hasn't seen.  I still can't tell for sure just why you think something of it is interesting.

It looks like maybe you see some conflict between this account and others.  If that is the point of interest, I'll just point out that essentially every word has multiple meanings, and everyone does not use the same word for every thing.   Maybe Pringle was just trying to communicate that all the money and all its pieces were all together in some single mass or volume ("bundle," like a bundle of laundry) previously.   Or maybe he was referring to multiple packets of about 100 bills each (what Cooper talkers call "bundles") having been combined together into "bundles" before being put into the bag.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on December 27, 2014, 07:21:05 AM
I looked up the word "Interesting" it has several definitions.

Attracting your attention and making you want to learn more about something or to be involved in something : not dull or boring.

Holding the attention :  arousing interest.

I find it "Interesting" that we have carried this simple comment beyond it's original purpose, or intention. I understand that some things may not be interesting to some, but can be interesting to others. I find the statement of one bundle nothing more than plain old interesting. the whole case itself is interesting. it makes people want to learn more about the case, and try to understand things.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 27, 2014, 06:12:42 PM
I don't think this current discussion is interesting.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: hom on December 27, 2014, 08:25:37 PM
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I don't think this current discussion is interesting.

I've lost all interest in it too. :)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 03, 2015, 01:41:18 AM
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I don't think this current discussion is interesting.

I've lost all interest in it too. :)

Me too! Lack of motivation under the situation we currently ourselves deployed in. I just want to get home alive! Zombies ever'where!
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 06, 2015, 12:22:58 PM
The St Johns dump theory,

I had a dump float TBAR theory a while back so I'll document it here. It is pure speculation.. based on some assumptions.

Cooper survived the jump with the money,
Cooper was a local resident,
The money was deposited on TBAR intact,
The money was deposited years after the hijack,
The money travelled a short distance and had little water exposure.

The theory is that the money floated to TBAR from the St Johns dump inside some type of bag, wrapping or containment, about 6 easy miles to TBAR. The dump is a vector that can put Cooper anywhere from Albany to Tacoma.

The dump is in the slough surrounded by water, it drew garbage from as far away as Tacoma. There are reports of illegal dumping by people and contractors all around the dump area. The place was a huge mess completely surrounded by water that flowed into the Willamette just before the Columbia.

The theory,

Cooper survived the jump with the money, hid the money at his residence, inside a wall, attic or object, maybe in a garage or barn. Two scenarios,,

Some of the hidden money was found by a relative and thrown in the garbage, not knowing what it was they thought it was trash. It ended up at the St Johns dump.

OR

Cooper suddenly lost control of the residence and money, he possibly died or went to prison. The residence was sold/demolished and the debris taken to the St Johns dump. If so, the rest of the money may be in that dump.

If you research the St Johns dump/landfill, you can get a sense of the place in the 70s..

I have attached a Google Earth .kmz file in zip form flyover that shows the float path from the dump to TBAR.. hope it works,

(http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/12014928-large.jpg)

(http://media.oregonlive.com/environment_impact/photo/9406143-large.jpg)

(http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2011/03/9407626-standard.jpg)

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 06, 2015, 03:06:02 PM
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The St Johns dump theory,

I had a dump float TBAR theory a while back so I'll document it here. It is pure speculation.. based on some assumptions.

Cooper survived the jump with the money,
Cooper was a local resident,
The money was deposited on TBAR intact,
The money was deposited years after the hijack,
The money travelled a short distance and had little water exposure.

The theory is that the money floated to TBAR from the St Johns dump inside some type of bag, wrapping or containment, about 6 easy miles to TBAR. The dump is a vector that can put Cooper anywhere from Albany to Tacoma.

The dump is in the slough surrounded by water, it drew garbage from as far away as Tacoma. There are reports of illegal dumping by people and contractors all around the dump area. The place was a huge mess completely surrounded by water that flowed into the Willamette just before the Columbia.

The theory,

Cooper survived the jump with the money, hid the money at his residence, inside a wall, attic or object, maybe in a garage or barn. Two scenarios,,

Some of the hidden money was found by a relative and thrown in the garbage, not knowing what it was they thought it was trash. It ended up at the St Johns dump.

OR

Cooper suddenly lost control of the residence and money, he possibly died or went to prison. The residence was sold/demolished and the debris taken to the St Johns dump. If so, the rest of the money may be in that dump.

If you research the St Johns dump/landfill, you can get a sense of the place in the 70s..

I have attached a Google Earth .kmz file in zip form flyover that shows the float path from the dump to TBAR.. hope it works,

(http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/photo/12014928-large.jpg)

(http://media.oregonlive.com/environment_impact/photo/9406143-large.jpg)

(http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2011/03/9407626-standard.jpg)

If you can document one thing ever moving from this dump to Tina Bar then at least you have a theory based on a sample of "1" !  :o

That beats JT's claim that he moved ping pong balls from the Washougal to Tina Bar with a documented sample size of "none"!

Why don't you contact Tom Kaye or Robt Blevins and ask them if there is anything they see in the money that indicates the money was ever in a garbage dump - called "dump contact".
 :D
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 06, 2015, 04:19:21 PM
That's a wild theory for sure. I've seen worse. a pile of events have to work all in order for something like that in my opinion.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 06, 2015, 08:30:42 PM
Yup, the dump scenario is a super stretch. Never thought I'd say it, but the Propeller Theory doesn't sound quite so far-fetched these days.

And I still have a warm spot in my heart for Cooper as a time-traveller....

...I also like my theory of an electrostatic propulsion system rigged into the NB-8.  Cooper then flew home to Canada.  How do you like that, eh, Flyjack? Technically, he had an electronic grid woven into the canopy, charged it, which in turn produced an ionic field which was the polar opposite charge of the rain. That moved him through the rain clouds. Slow, but he got away. Kind of like NASA's Deep Space One satellite.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 06, 2015, 10:46:27 PM
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Yup, the dump scenario is a super stretch. Never thought I'd say it, but the Propeller Theory doesn't sound quite so far-fetched these days.

And I still have a warm spot in my heart for Cooper as a time-traveller....

...I also like my theory of an electrostatic propulsion system rigged into the NB-8.  Cooper then flew home to Canada.  How do you like that, eh, Flyjack? Technically, he had an electronic grid woven into the canopy, charged it, which in turn produced an ionic field which was the polar opposite charge of the rain. That moved him through the rain clouds. Slow, but he got away. Kind of like NASA's Deep Space One satellite.

Instead of belittling with childish mockery,  explain why the float from the dump to TBAR is a poor theory, and what is your leading theory.. you have been at this far longer than I have, you must have it figured.



Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 06, 2015, 11:16:02 PM
What happened to the bag?
How can we know Cooper knew where he was?
Why would he save the money?
I'm not sure he would risk his life only to hang on to the money?

It's an interesting theory, but a lot of things have to fall into place for it to happen.

Lets try to keep things civil here. he is only explaining a theory. it appears he put a lot of effort into it. the least we can do is allow him to speak about it. I don't have a problem with anyone posting thoughts, suspects, or possible evidence. that's why we are all here.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on January 06, 2015, 11:45:34 PM
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explain why the float from the dump to TBAR is a poor theory, and what is your leading theory.. you have been at this far longer than I have, you must have it figured.
I lean towards the "no-pull" scenario and the money ended up on the bar via currents or dredging.  That being said, anything is possible, but is it probable? 

Don't be afraid to state your opinion here, FLYJACK.  This place is full of Schmaltz's who are quick to criticize, but have never solved or discovered a thing.  ;D
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 07, 2015, 12:53:15 AM
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What happened to the bag?
How can we know Cooper knew where he was?
Why would he save the money?
I'm not sure he would risk his life only to hang on to the money?

It's an interesting theory, but a lot of things have to fall into place for it to happen.

Lets try to keep things civil here. he is only explaining a theory. it appears he put a lot of effort into it. the least we can do is allow him to speak about it. I don't have a problem with anyone posting thoughts, suspects, or possible evidence. that's why we are all here.

Thanks, I encourage the challenge of and vetting of theories and speculation. That is how you get closer to the truth.

This theory is really focused more specifically on the possibility of a float from the dump to TBAR (rather than how it got into the dump) given what we know from the evidence and testing, it is a very rational explanation. I have read extensively about the conditions around the dump, hopefully I'll get some info to share.

I believe it more likely, (not fact), that the money was never spent in the US by a US suspect. Why?

highest probability and reasonable inference,
He died in the jump. OR
He lost control of the money afterward before he could spend it. Died later, went to prison etc.

If he died in the jump, how did the TBAR money get there later in that condition. No real good explanation..

If he lost control of the money, how could the TBAR money get there later in that condition.. from the dump or ??


This is the area during a flood..

(http://www.ccrh.org/comm/slough/images/harbor.jpg)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2015, 03:07:54 AM
Flyjacker - I am not mocking you or your theories, childishly or otherwise.

I am a big believer in transmuting time and space.

I said what I believed - the dump theory is a super stretch. Offer some concrete proof and I'll take a closer look

As for landfills, it brings up a troubling question:  Why didn't the folks who were responsible for the cattle mutilations on the Fazios' property in 1991 put the carcasses in a dumpster, or take the bodies directly to the dump? Just leaving dead animals lying around - no matter how sophisticated the surgical removals of issues might have been - is not nice. Also, taking stuff that doesn't belong to you, especially genitals - is rude, no matter how smart someone thinks they are.

Whoever is mutilating cattle in the US has very poor manners. Somebody should talk to their mothers and find out what's wrong.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
As for T-Bar, here is my theory, or at least the theory that I would put money on if I had to place a bet tonight.

The salient clue for me is that the bills were squished together - stuck and could not be peeled off.  That tells me they were buried in the sand for a long period of time and compressed.

How could that happen? Float in on a tide and get buried the next day in a flood?  Dredge picked them off the bottom of the river in 1974 and threw them up onto the beach in some crazy fashion and then the river bank started to face serious erosion five years after the last spoils were deposited on the beaches?

Or buried by somebody for bizarre reasons. Cult rituals? MKULTRA? Indoctrination ceremonies? Anniversary celebration by SOG guys on the fifth year anniversary of Norjak?

For me, the money find calls for something really out of the box.

As for Cooper, I lean on the SOG guys - smart, savvy, skilled, and had the time. Know how to keep their mouths shut, etc....

What happened to Cooper?

Scenario 1: SAGE got him all the way down and the feds picked him right up. Terminated him right on the spot, or gave him a medal and a promotion and sent him back to 'Nam.

Scenario 2: Jake and boys extracted him successfully and Danny Boy went on to the next job.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2015, 03:34:35 AM
Another thought on the dump theory.

If the money was in the dump and washed down to T-Bar from there, other junk should be floating down there as well.  We should see a mixed plume field, but that is not the case.

In fact, the lack of a plume field is very telling. To me, it means the essential bundles were placed there. How? I don't know, but they didn't float there from upstream source. Dredge or human hands are my two leading thoughts.

Also, there are a couple troubling "facts" in the money find. The first is that only the FBI saw fragments. Brian says he and his family spent the rest of Sunday looking for more money and didn't see a thing. Al Fazio didn't see a thing, either, and says the feds are bs-ing us.

Lastly, where are all the fragments the feds say they collected? Nobody I know has seen any. Georger says his people have, and I've asked for the opportunity to corroborate their findings, but so far G is silent on the matter. Not a good sign, if ya know what I mean.

Plus, where are the affidavits from the dozens of volunteers who were digging on the beach? How about any paperwork? How come the FBI had "volunteers" on the beach?  Where were the deputies from the Sheriff's department?  This doesn't seem correct.

Fishy?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 07, 2015, 06:59:56 AM
They could of been "volunteers" from the FBI themselves like clerks, secretaries, people who don't normally work in the field?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 07, 2015, 10:45:11 AM
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Another thought on the dump theory.

If the money was in the dump and washed down to T-Bar from there, other junk should be floating down there as well.  We should see a mixed plume field, but that is not the case.

In fact, the lack of a plume field is very telling. To me, it means the essential bundles were placed there. How? I don't know, but they didn't float there from upstream source. Dredge or human hands are my two leading thoughts.


Certainly a plume field does support the dump theory, however the lack of a reported plume field does not discredit it. I am trying to get some better info on the dump conditions in the 70s..

The dredge theory is the leading one if he died in the jump. The conditional assumptions in my dump theory were that he survived.

But the problem with the dredge theory is that the money likely wasn't in the water for a long period??

Why do you think the money didn't float from an upstream source?? even a very short distance..

More to the issue, if he survived the jump, how would the money get to TBAR??
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 07, 2015, 03:39:14 PM
If Cooper survived, how do you know the money survived with him?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 07, 2015, 05:02:02 PM
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If Cooper survived, how do you know the money survived with him?

simple, you don't,, that is why I used the qualifier assumption..  to try and reasonably explain how the money could get to TBAR if he survived with the money..

Maybe I am missing something but it seems contradictory to accept the dredge theory but reject a short float.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 07, 2015, 05:49:50 PM
Here's my view:

1. A float, even a short one, requires a plume field. And a continuing one. We should continue to see garbage floating in from the dump via the same processes that got the money there in the first place.

2. The dredge explains the bundle being intact without a plume field, or at least only a small, contained one if the FBI is to be believed about thousands of shard being found in the soil underneath the three bundles and radiating out twenty yards.

This begs a second question: why were the three bundles on top of their plume field? Was it the last to arrive? Also, it seems odd that the bundles were central to the plume field. I don't know how that could happen. Honestly, to me it suggests a federal cover story not steeped in physics or hydrology.

In addition, how the bundles got into the dredge, I don't know. Maybe the whole bank bag was down there, and all that thrown up to the beach was this little bit.

That's why I like the Human Hands scenario. I don't think it was planted to be found, unless the feds - or whoever - planted hundreds of bundles in sites all around Cooper Country and none have been found other the one in T-Bar. I suspect an intensional planting for very unusual reasons.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: nmiwrecks on January 08, 2015, 09:32:13 AM
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Another thought on the dump theory.

In fact, the lack of a plume field is very telling. To me, it means the essential bundles were placed there. How? I don't know, but they didn't float there from upstream source. Dredge or human hands are my two leading thoughts.


The dredge theory is the leading one if he died in the jump. The conditional assumptions in my dump theory were that he survived.

But the problem with the dredge theory is that the money likely wasn't in the water for a long period??


The money could have been in water the entire time and still be in the condition it was when found.  The key is would have had to been in some type of container or substance such as mud or sand to maintain that level of conservation.  If the money bundle(s) were in open water for an extended period of time, I suspect they would appear to be in a more deteriorated state.

In the proper conditions, money bundles could stay in a preserved state for decades, and maybe more than a century.  While doing some work on a project in my neck of the woods, I came across a video (link below), describing a skull still containing brain matter, which was found on a salt-water shipwreck from around 1690, .  This is significant because the brain is usually the first part of the body to break down and decay after death, but because the body was covered in mud and silt soon after death, the brain tissue was preserved (Check out the video at the 29:15 mark for more details).

Link to preserved skull-29:15 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXUNZa76LcM&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 08, 2015, 10:39:34 AM
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Here's my view:

1. A float, even a short one, requires a plume field. And a continuing one. We should continue to see garbage floating in from the dump via the same processes that got the money there in the first place.

2. The dredge explains the bundle being intact without a plume field, or at least only a small, contained one if the FBI is to be believed about thousands of shard being found in the soil underneath the three bundles and radiating out twenty yards.

This begs a second question: why were the three bundles on top of their plume field? Was it the last to arrive? Also, it seems odd that the bundles were central to the plume field. I don't know how that could happen. Honestly, to me it suggests a federal cover story not steeped in physics or hydrology.

In addition, how the bundles got into the dredge, I don't know. Maybe the whole bank bag was down there, and all that thrown up to the beach was this little bit.

That's why I like the Human Hands scenario. I don't think it was planted to be found, unless the feds - or whoever - planted hundreds of bundles in sites all around Cooper Country and none have been found other the one in T-Bar. I suspect an intensional planting for very unusual reasons.

The lack of a tight debris field after a 6 mile float is not really very significant.. How did the bank bag/money get down there?? Briefcase??

The dump theory does do something that the dredge/drop does not. It allows Cooper to have landed in or close to the FBI LZ which is the higher probability. The dredge theory forces another layer of "theorizing", to explain how the money or Cooper got into the river that far from the LZ.

BTW, I am not dismissing other theories, just trying to contrast and attempt to establish probabilities..

The probability trade,,, 

The dredge/drop theory(s), how did the money/Cooper get into river so far from expected LZ VS dump theory, how did money get into dump.


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Parrotheadvol on January 08, 2015, 05:25:15 PM
How far and difficult of a hike would it have been from the believed LZ to Tina Bar? I don't often hear the theory that he survived the jump and made his way close to, or perhaps all the way to Tina Bar and at that point separated with some or all of the money, by death or some other cause. But, like yours, this theory works with the LZ and the money find location. Did it happen this way? Probably not, but I give it a higher probability than some of the other theories, especially the theory of an intentional plant to throw off the FBI.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 08, 2015, 06:30:01 PM
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How far and difficult of a hike would it have been from the believed LZ to Tina Bar? I don't often hear the theory that he survived the jump and made his way close to, or perhaps all the way to Tina Bar and at that point separated with some or all of the money, by death or some other cause. But, like yours, this theory works with the LZ and the money find location. Did it happen this way? Probably not, but I give it a higher probability than some of the other theories, especially the theory of an intentional plant to throw off the FBI.

25 miles or so.. I know there are theories to put the LZ in the Columbia nearer TBAR and it is possible.. the dump theory doesn't require moving the LZ. The dredge theory needs to put the money in the river, that is tough as the FBIs original LZ must be rejected.

That money find is a real puzzle..

the FBI original LZ, based on conditions, evidence and experts..

(http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/march/in-search-of-d.b.-cooper/image/coopermap.jpg)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 08, 2015, 06:31:46 PM
Did you know the original jump area has come into question? it's further south than originally believed.

Actually, it's about 16+ miles. it's about 23 miles and change from the Lewis river to the Columbia.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 08, 2015, 07:43:16 PM
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Did you know the original jump area has come into question? it's further south than originally believed.

Actually, it's about 16+ miles. it's about 23 miles and change from the Lewis river to the Columbia.

the point remains valid, the dredge theory must explain "how the money/Cooper got over to TBAR"

TBAR/Columbia is a very low probability LZ, wash down, meh..

What do you think has the highest probability?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 08, 2015, 08:04:22 PM
One can only speculate to a certain degree on all of this.

I see trouble with the location of the jump. moving south as time passes.
I see the plane crossing upstream close to the possible jump area, money found downstream....
I see a lot of data on dredging that discounts the FBI's version.
I read Nmiwrecks talking from experience about things preserved underwater.
I can see the money being ripped away from Cooper, and he survives the jump.
I can see a no pull close to the Columbia.
I've read many occasions where bodies sink in the water, and never seen again.
I've seen bodies floating in the water.
I've seen reports of the flight path in question.

Nothing can really be explained until it's certain....I see lots of possibilities......



Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 08, 2015, 09:48:06 PM
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One can only speculate to a certain degree on all of this.

I see trouble with the location of the jump. moving south as time passes.
I see the plane crossing upstream close to the possible jump area, money found downstream....
I see a lot of data on dredging that discounts the FBI's version.
I read Nmiwrecks talking from experience about things preserved underwater.
I can see the money being ripped away from Cooper, and he survives the jump.
I can see a no pull close to the Columbia.
I've read many occasions where bodies sink in the water, and never seen again.
I've seen bodies floating in the water.
I've seen reports of the flight path in question.

Nothing can really be explained until it's certain....I see lots of possibilities......

All possibilities, but you don't have one that seems to have the highest probability.. Occam's razor or Solomonoff's theory of inductive inference
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 08, 2015, 10:05:44 PM
It's highly possible it's a very simple solution that doesn't have to have multiple events to it.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 09, 2015, 12:49:10 AM
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It's highly possible it's a very simple solution that doesn't have to have multiple events to it.

That's how things often turn out.

I am following je suis Charlie ... they may have the perps trapped in a woods north of Paris .... 800 people have surrounded the area ... hope they get them.

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: andrade1812 on January 09, 2015, 01:36:36 AM
Bruce, you should see if you can track down some of those divers that Tosaw hired, I'd bet money that they'll say the Columbia was filled with garbage.

As for whether Cooper kept the money, let's remember he tied a 20 pound sack of stuff around his waist with rope. And his body would have to absorb the shock of a 20 pound sack of money going 100mph... It would have to do severe damage to his back. If Cooper pulls, he better hope the rope attaching the money to himself fails without much ado. I don't see any way Cooper keeps the cash in his possession.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 09, 2015, 06:40:32 AM
Quote
What do you think has the highest probability?

I would have to say something went wrong with the jump.
Something possibly is wrong with the path, or the timing.
The plane did cross the Columbia, and we have money from that plane downstream.


If we had the whole story to what happened we could have better answers, or possible conclusions. we don't have the transcripts showing everything that was said around this time period. we could be assuming things for the wrong reasons.

Testing the razor
The razor's statement that "other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones" is amenable to empirical testing. Another interpretation of the razor's statement would be that "simpler hypotheses (not conclusions, i.e. explanations) are generally better than the complex ones"
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 09, 2015, 01:42:13 PM
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Quote
What do you think has the highest probability?

I would have to say something went wrong with the jump.
Something possibly is wrong with the path, or the timing.
The plane did cross the Columbia, and we have money from that plane downstream.


If we had the whole story to what happened we could have better answers, or possible conclusions. we don't have the transcripts showing everything that was said around this time period. we could be assuming things for the wrong reasons.

I agree, the simplest, highest probability explanation is that he died in the jump.

Simplest, he landed/died in a body of water/river that washed the money to TBAR.

The dump theory was an attempt to reasonably explain it if he had survived in the context of all the information. If he did survive getting the money to TBAR is a tougher nut to crack..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 09, 2015, 02:06:45 PM
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Quote
What do you think has the highest probability?

I would have to say something went wrong with the jump.
Something possibly is wrong with the path, or the timing.
The plane did cross the Columbia, and we have money from that plane downstream.


If we had the whole story to what happened we could have better answers, or possible conclusions. we don't have the transcripts showing everything that was said around this time period. we could be assuming things for the wrong reasons.

I agree, the simplest, highest probability explanation is that he died in the jump.

Simplest, he landed/died in a body of water/river that washed the money to TBAR.

The dump theory was an attempt to reasonably explain it if he had survived in the context of all the information. If he did survive getting the money to TBAR is a tougher nut to crack..

I will say this again for the 1-zillionth time:

Nothing has ever been documented to have flowed from point A, to Tina Bar. That includes articles from your dump to Tina Bar.

That said, obviously things wind up on Tina Bar ... from somewhere, from many points of origin. But, no dominant route connecting points has ever been demonstrated. No particular set of conditions has been documented. So far as I know the whole thing is random. But, things probably don't flow to Tina Bar from Toulouse France!

Those facts define your universe of options. Until the universe of possible options can be clarified by something, these speculations always round around in a circle, as has been the case since Feb of 1980!

   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 09, 2015, 03:02:48 PM
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I will say this again for the 1-zillionth time:

Nothing has ever been documented to have flowed from point A, to Tina Bar. That includes articles from your dump to Tina Bar.

That said, obviously things wind up on Tina Bar ... from somewhere, from many points of origin. But, no dominant route connecting points has ever been demonstrated. No particular set of conditions has been documented. So far as I know the whole thing is random. But, things probably don't flow to Tina Bar from Toulouse France!

Those facts define your universe of options. Until the universe of possible options can be clarified by something, these speculations always round around in a circle, as has been the case since Feb of 1980!


I don't get your attitude, it seems every angle has been covered, no real good evidence exists to support any theory and there is nothing new to be learned or theorized. There is no reason to even discuss the case at all, why have a forum, maybe that is why DZ drifted into crazyzone. Having new people with fresh eyes may dislodge something, real long shot for sure, at this point resting on what has been covered hasn't done anything. If this thing ever does get moved at this point it will take some risky out of box thinking and luck. Your attitude is to reject and discredit it. You have shut down, given up, locked yourself into a self imposed paradigm, you don't have to.

Example.. How many local people fit the FBI profile, less than 100, less than 50??

Where did Ron Connor live in 1971. What was his physical description? Does it exclude him? He was an engineer in a local AL plant that used Ti... 35 yo in '71... US military in Europe..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 09, 2015, 05:07:43 PM
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I will say this again for the 1-zillionth time:

Nothing has ever been documented to have flowed from point A, to Tina Bar. That includes articles from your dump to Tina Bar.

That said, obviously things wind up on Tina Bar ... from somewhere, from many points of origin. But, no dominant route connecting points has ever been demonstrated. No particular set of conditions has been documented. So far as I know the whole thing is random. But, things probably don't flow to Tina Bar from Toulouse France!

Those facts define your universe of options. Until the universe of possible options can be clarified by something, these speculations always round around in a circle, as has been the case since Feb of 1980!


I don't get your attitude, it seems every angle has been covered, no real good evidence exists to support any theory and there is nothing new to be learned or theorized. There is no reason to even discuss the case at all, why have a forum, maybe that is why DZ drifted into crazyzone. Having new people with fresh eyes may dislodge something, real long shot for sure, at this point resting on what has been covered hasn't done anything. If this thing ever does get moved at this point it will take some risky out of box thinking and luck. Your attitude is to reject and discredit it. You have shut down, given up, locked yourself into a self imposed paradigm, you don't have to.

Example.. How many local people fit the FBI profile, less than 100, less than 50??

Where did Ron Connor live in 1971. What was his physical description? Does it exclude him? He was an engineer in a local AL plant that used Ti... 35 yo in '71... US military in Europe..

If wanting real evidence (facts and acts) is an 'attitude' then I guess I have an attitude. Funny.  :)

How does anything wind up on Tina Bar? From where? How? Random chance? Specific currents? Currents that vary with time of year - seasonal cycles of deposition?  Currents that favour one location over another?

Anything that favors facts over speculation and speculation over no facts at all, worse contrary to known facts. Good old fashioned French Rationalism!

Is there a specific date at which time things spilled from a dump into the Columbia then flowed to Tina Bar ?
A documented case?

Otherwise let's talk about the Moon Men from Planet-X that skitter knowingly through the maldum fornax who put Cooper money at Tina Bar? And the same applies to every facet of the DB Cooper case.

Things that wash up on Tina Bar come from somewhere!

I mean no disrespect by any of this. 

 ;D

   
   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 09, 2015, 09:40:40 PM
I'm not a big fan of Moon Men from Planet X, but I am a fan of the Anunnaki from Nibiru, aka Planet X. The guy who brought these folks into prominence was Zechariah Sitchin, and he was my first journalistic assignment. I interviewed him in the Holiday Inn in Trenton NJ back in 1990. Interesting times.

It was a UFO gathering, and Bud Hopkins was also there. His presentation was transformative. I had a profound reaction to it, and became aware of my own abduction experiences.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 09, 2015, 11:40:28 PM
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I'm not a big fan of Moon Men from Planet X, but I am a fan of the Anunnaki from Nibiru, aka Planet X. The guy who brought these folks into prominence was Zechariah Sitchin, and he was my first journalistic assignment. I interviewed him in the Holiday Inn in Trenton NJ back in 1990. Interesting times.

It was a UFO gathering, and Bud Hopkins was also there. His presentation was transformative. I had a profound reaction to it, and became aware of my own abduction experiences.

The Ransom of Red Chief ?

 ;)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 10, 2015, 06:32:19 PM
Who dat?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 10, 2015, 11:51:52 PM
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Who dat?

You are a man of Literature. Look it up.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 10:25:52 AM
What about Smith Lake in a no pull, any consideration there..

Haven't confirmed its size in 1971 but they would flood it in winter and release it in Summer.. If they flooded in 1971, the Lake would be a larger target widthwise than the Columbia and it could hold the money for a period of time before release, a float to TBAR down the Willamette Slough. The FBI flight path goes straight at Smith Lake then turns South before it. If he jumped in a no pull just before the turn, could he have landed in Smith Lake. Some forward momentum in a no pull.

If it was flooded in 71, it would be one of the largest bodies of water close to the FBI flight path with easy float to TBAR.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 12:41:08 PM
Online calculator,, for drop angle and time...   looks to be 24-26 seconds in a no pull.. (estimating some variables)

http://www1.bbiq.jp/~zhukov/calc/calc.html

edit,, 77.16 m/sec * 26 sec   = 2006 m  = 1.24 miles forward distance


heading straight at Smith Lake, the path of the plane turned south prior, a no pull object may travel straight toward Smith Lake for another 1.24 miles before ground impact (using case data),  How close was the flight path to Smith Lake before the southern turn and what is the confidence level of the flightpath at that point.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 11, 2015, 12:47:01 PM
Smith lake is a possibility, but it's a few miles west of the the FBI flight path. you also have to justify the time frame in order to prove he dropped into the lake. the whole area is suspect in my opinion. the plane crosses Hayden island on the east side.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 01:20:28 PM

the eastern half of Hayden is 0.5 to 3 miles from Smith Lake, within the 1.24 estimation
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 11, 2015, 02:20:33 PM
Here ya go.... ;D

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 11, 2015, 02:23:18 PM
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Smith lake is a possibility, but it's a few miles west of the the FBI flight path. you also have to justify the time frame in order to prove he dropped into the lake. the whole area is suspect in my opinion. the plane crosses Hayden island on the east side.

That's actually not a bad idea IF you can stretch the timeline. It is clearly in the Columbia drainage basin.   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 11, 2015, 02:30:13 PM
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Smith lake is a possibility, but it's a few miles west of the the FBI flight path. you also have to justify the time frame in order to prove he dropped into the lake. the whole area is suspect in my opinion. the plane crosses Hayden island on the east side.

That's actually not a bad idea IF you can stretch the timeline. It is clearly in the Columbia drainage basin.

Never said it wasn't, but it's a little further west. you need to justify the plane that far west. Carr gives a time frame past this position. all the water in this area is what I've been stating for a while now. if one chooses to accept he jumped in the area of the Columbia, all of these water holes become potential targets for landing.

If the timeline is inaccurate, are we strectching anything?  :-\
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 03:29:28 PM
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Here ya go.... ;D

That image is at low water level in the lake, I have seen pics of it completely full/flooded, not sure about fall/winter '71 though.

At full water level Smith Lake is probably the largest water body close to the flight path.

Where exactly did the plane turn/jog south near Hayden,, most maps are too general.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 11, 2015, 04:05:23 PM
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Smith lake is a possibility, but it's a few miles west of the the FBI flight path. you also have to justify the time frame in order to prove he dropped into the lake. the whole area is suspect in my opinion. the plane crosses Hayden island on the east side.

That's actually not a bad idea IF you can stretch the timeline. It is clearly in the Columbia drainage basin.

Never said it wasn't, but it's a little further west. you need to justify the plane that far west. Carr gives a time frame past this position. all the water in this area is what I've been stating for a while now. if one chooses to accept he jumped in the area of the Columbia, all of these water holes become potential targets for landing.

If the timeline is inaccurate, are we strectching anything?  :-\

The one almost certain 'weak link' in whatever flight path you chose, assuming the Eastern Washougal route never happened, is the timeline. Depending on whose version you accept the time and position of "8:05" is a benchmark and central to everything else. Why? Because Rataczak pins everything to his last communication with Cooper at 8:05, whatever their position was when 8:05 happened. (If I understand this matter correctly, almost everyone accepts a plus/minus 1 minute error in the Transcript timeline).

So, the issue if when did he bail after 8:05 and where were they when that happened.

It's on that issue that we have differing accounts and there is literally nothing in the Transcript to clarify this. All Rat says is "5 to 10 minutes after 8:05". If the Anderson interviews are real, Anderson says it had to be later than Rat says because "we discussed it and nobody had called it in yet!". "We waited", Anderson says. Cooper called in again at least once after 8:05 and asked the plane to be slowed and stabilized. All of the above is eating time after the benchmark 8:05. The key event is the "pressure event - bump". When exactly did that happened and when was it reported ...

The FBI etal places his estimated jump at 8:11. Anderson, if his interview is real, says 8:12 to even 8:16 is not an unreasonable estimate given everything else and the "confusion-delay in reporting" that was going on at the time.

If you extend the jump time to something beyond 8:11 now we are getting close to the Columbia River basin system which could bring Cooper money to Tina Bar by natural means. There is "no" reason to believe the money arrived on Tina Bar by any other means! Therefore, the flight path, drop time & position, and the money at Tina Bar are all connected by facts of causation. One thing caused the other. It's old fashioned physics.

One thing that strengthens the idea of "causation throughout this hijacking" for me, is Cooper himself. This was a fairly well managed hijacking as hijackings go, with not too many lose strings and unexpected events, with Cooper delivering messages continually to the cockpit managing just about every facet of this hijacking he could control including slowing and stabilising the plane to accommodate a jump, right up to the time he jumped (according to Anderson). That level of management strengthens the whole notion of Causation working throughout this hijacking which then explains all of the physical facts of the crime from the placard on the ground near Toutle to the money at Tina Bar, all connected to the general timeline, flight path options, and Cooper specific actions resulting in evidence on the ground.

The crime and the events of the crime are simple, in my estimation. The personalities looking at the crime is what has become very complex. This crime and what happened is not rocket science - just the opposite! It is the people dealing with this crime and the lack of direct data available, that has lead to complexity, and 99.999% of that has nothing to do with the facts of the crime itself or with Cooper himself.

There isn't an un-natural event in this whole story. The whole thing is "by natural means" and that includes Cooper himself on that plane.

This whole story is a textbook case of classical Causation in action, from start to finish. I have yet to see one un-natural fact in this whole case ... if we had all of those facts!
         

 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 11, 2015, 04:26:12 PM
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Here ya go.... ;D

That image is at low water level in the lake, I have seen pics of it completely full/flooded, not sure about fall/winter '71 though.

At full water level Smith Lake is probably the largest water body close to the flight path.

Where exactly did the plane turn/jog south near Hayden,, most maps are too general.

usgs 1975.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 11, 2015, 04:29:05 PM
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Here ya go.... ;D

That image is at low water level in the lake, I have seen pics of it completely full/flooded, not sure about fall/winter '71 though.

At full water level Smith Lake is probably the largest water body close to the flight path.

Where exactly did the plane turn/jog south near Hayden,, most maps are too general.

It wasn't meant for anything but a reference for Georger. didn't notice the water levels.  :o
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 05:25:05 PM
so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..

(http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Analysis%20of%201%20min%20Error%20South%201971.jpg)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 11, 2015, 06:09:17 PM
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..

(http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/Analysis%20of%201%20min%20Error%20South%201971.jpg)

The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 06:19:34 PM
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 11, 2015, 06:44:05 PM
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?

In order for the airliner to be at the 25 DME mile point south of the present day Battleground VORTAC at 8:18 PM (as it said it was), it would have to take a direct short cut from about Toledo to that point.  That means it would bypass Portland on the west side and fly almost directly over Tina Bar.  I don't think the flight crew would fly over Portland under any circumstances with a bomb on board and a warning from the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow up the airliner when he jumped.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 09:00:22 PM
Assuming the initial FBI flight path for now, I upped the airspeed slightly to 170knots as the pilot docs state near that time, that ups the distance to 1.26 mi, checking an accurate map that is the distance from the I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake. So, IF the original path is correct and the plane turned south near the I5 and there was a no pull, then on paper he could have reached Smith Lake.

Has anybody looked at Smith Lake, I searched the other site and nothing..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 11, 2015, 09:40:15 PM
I'm including a map showing the location of the path (blue line) you can see it barely reaches the tip of Hayden island. the green line is V-23, and the straight red line is the distance from the path to Smith lake which is a little over 3 miles, or 2.62 Nautical miles. the map was made by Snowmman

It's a little too far west to have hit this water hole. the odds are greater for the Columbia where the plane obviously crossed. Smith lake is surrounded by rivers, why pick this area? why exclude surrounding waters?

This is of course if the path is correct. even if I give an error of .5, it still can't reach the area.... 8)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 11, 2015, 11:11:17 PM
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I'm including a map showing the location of the path (blue line) you can see it barely reaches the tip of Hayden island. the green line is V-23, and the straight red line is the distance from the path to Smith lake which is a little over 3 miles, or 2.62 Nautical miles. the map was made by Snowmman

It's a little too far west to have hit this water hole. the odds are greater for the Columbia where the plane obviously crossed. Smith lake is surrounded by rivers, why pick this area? why exclude surrounding waters?

This is of course if the path is correct. even if I give an error of .5, it still can't reach the area.... 8)

I did see Snowmmans map. He has the waypoints marked with straight lines in between, not the actual path, the path in between the waypoints is likely smoothed in reality, as the black line on the FBI map is. Note the black line and green one on the FBI/Snowmman map above differ. There is no actual flight path data in between. But it is reasonable to assume the black line is more likely. It looks like it came close to or over the I5 on Haydon Is, but we just don't know exactly where it was in between those two waypoints. If you smooth the path it puts the plane about 1.25 - 1.5 miles from Smith Lake, within the distance for a no pull landing (on paper). I don't mean to exclude surrounding waters.  Nash's Game Theory,, don't go for the Blonde.

Smith Lake is a significantly large body of water, if flooded in 71, wider than the Columbia is across
I can't find this theory explored previously, unless someone has info
It explains a possible delayed/partial deposit on TBAR
Evidence might still be there. Unlikely if he landed in the Columbia

Any abandoned vehicles around there in 71,, parking tickets issued.. maybe he had a getaway car stashed..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 11, 2015, 11:38:33 PM
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Assuming the initial FBI flight path for now, I upped the airspeed slightly to 170knots as the pilot docs state near that time, that ups the distance to 1.26 mi, checking an accurate map that is the distance from the I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake. So, IF the original path is correct and the plane turned south near the I5 and there was a no pull, then on paper he could have reached Smith Lake.

Has anybody looked at Smith Lake, I searched the other site and nothing..

The flight crew had been advised by the NWA Performance Group in Minneapolis to fly at 170 Knots Indicated Air Speed since this was the speed for optimal range with the landing gear down, aft stairs down, and flaps set as Cooper wanted.  That 170 KIAS comes out as about 195 Knots True Air Speed.  Their headwind component as they went by Portland and heading almost straight South was about 15 to 20 Knots.  The resulting Ground Speed was about 175 to 180 Knots.  That is approximately 3 Nautical Miles per minute.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 11, 2015, 11:45:29 PM
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?

In order for the airliner to be at the 25 DME mile point south of the present day Battleground VORTAC at 8:18 PM (as it said it was), it would have to take a direct short cut from about Toledo to that point.  That means it would bypass Portland on the west side and fly almost directly over Tina Bar.  I don't think the flight crew would fly over Portland under any circumstances with a bomb on board and a warning from the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow up the airliner when he jumped.

Isn't this exactly what Dawson said the path was - straight line btwn Toledo and the tip of Hayden Island ?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 11, 2015, 11:45:33 PM
The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 11, 2015, 11:48:25 PM
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Assuming the initial FBI flight path for now, I upped the airspeed slightly to 170knots as the pilot docs state near that time, that ups the distance to 1.26 mi, checking an accurate map that is the distance from the I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake. So, IF the original path is correct and the plane turned south near the I5 and there was a no pull, then on paper he could have reached Smith Lake.

Has anybody looked at Smith Lake, I searched the other site and nothing..

There would have been no reason to search the Smith Lake area. No searches reported there. H didn't search there but went north toward Woodland.

Smith Isle has not been discussed on Dropzone - mentioned but not discussed.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 11, 2015, 11:51:13 PM
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I'm including a map showing the location of the path (blue line) you can see it barely reaches the tip of Hayden island. the green line is V-23, and the straight red line is the distance from the path to Smith lake which is a little over 3 miles, or 2.62 Nautical miles. the map was made by Snowmman

It's a little too far west to have hit this water hole. the odds are greater for the Columbia where the plane obviously crossed. Smith lake is surrounded by rivers, why pick this area? why exclude surrounding waters?

This is of course if the path is correct. even if I give an error of .5, it still can't reach the area.... 8)

It's a safe bet to assume Cooper could not see any specific target under the conditions that night so may have aimed for a general area based on some general perception of lights he was seeing ahead, or under him?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 12, 2015, 12:02:23 AM
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I'm including a map showing the location of the path (blue line) you can see it barely reaches the tip of Hayden island. the green line is V-23, and the straight red line is the distance from the path to Smith lake which is a little over 3 miles, or 2.62 Nautical miles. the map was made by Snowmman

It's a little too far west to have hit this water hole. the odds are greater for the Columbia where the plane obviously crossed. Smith lake is surrounded by rivers, why pick this area? why exclude surrounding waters?

This is of course if the path is correct. even if I give an error of .5, it still can't reach the area.... 8)

I did see Snowmmans map. He has the waypoints marked with straight lines in between, not the actual path, the path in between the waypoints is likely smoothed in reality, as the black line on the FBI map is. Note the black line and green one on the FBI/Snowmman map above differ. There is no actual flight path data in between. But it is reasonable to assume the black line is more likely. It looks like it came close to or over the I5 on Haydon Is, but we just don't know exactly where it was in between those two waypoints. If you smooth the path it puts the plane about 1.25 - 1.5 miles from Smith Lake, within the distance for a no pull landing (on paper). I don't mean to exclude surrounding waters.  Nash's Game Theory,, don't go for the Blonde.

Smith Lake is a significantly large body of water, if flooded in 71, wider than the Columbia is across
I can't find this theory explored previously, unless someone has info
It explains a possible delayed/partial deposit on TBAR
Evidence might still be there. Unlikely if he landed in the Columbia

Any abandoned vehicles around there in 71,, parking tickets issued.. maybe he had a getaway car stashed..

I assume you have read the Dawson article? There has been no previous discussion of Smith Lake.

You have a route and current forces in hand to explain a trip between Smith Lake and T_Bar - unless dredging spoils or construction materials from Hayden Isle or Smith Lake were dumped near Tina Bar ?     

It was Farflung who suggested construction on Hayden or Govt Island might be responsible for the Coopermoney being see free to drift to Tina Bar ???
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 12, 2015, 12:33:41 AM
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so, if there was a no pull jump at say 20:17:30 between the waypoints, on the black path, close to I5 on Hayden, as the path turned south, a 200lb object would travel for 26 seconds and 1.24 miles straight at Smith Lake. I know these maps are not great and the position between the waypoints is an extrapolation.

It looks like about 1.5 miles..


The release of the NWA papers to the WSHM a few months back indicates that the airliner was actually at Tualatin at 8:18 PM PST.  That point is 25 DME miles (nautical miles) from what is now the Battleground VORTAC and about 14 DME miles further south than the point indicated on your attached map for 8:18.

The paper copy of that report was transmitted through the ARINC teletypewriter system and time stamped at 8:22 PM.  The voice call from the airliner to the ARINC system was patched through to the NWA office at SEA and one report indicates it was actually made at 8:18 PM which fits the overall situation much better.

Interesting, I was just indicating the south turn in the flight path on the map. Is there an issue with the flight path near I5 and Hayden Island between the points?

In order for the airliner to be at the 25 DME mile point south of the present day Battleground VORTAC at 8:18 PM (as it said it was), it would have to take a direct short cut from about Toledo to that point.  That means it would bypass Portland on the west side and fly almost directly over Tina Bar.  I don't think the flight crew would fly over Portland under any circumstances with a bomb on board and a warning from the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow up the airliner when he jumped.

Isn't this exactly what Dawson said the path was - straight line btwn Toledo and the tip of Hayden Island ?

It would actually be about a mile or two west of the tip of Hayden Island.  The airliner would be going almost straight south (178 degrees true) on that segment.  But Dawson's statement is accurate enough for me under the circumstances.  We just need more accurate data to pin this down exactly.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 12:37:06 AM
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The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?

Snowmmans map is direct lines connecting the waypoints, it is not the actual flightpath, it would have been smoother taking it closer to I5.. Was it close enough??? IDK we don't have data in between the waypoints. It looks real close. Smith Lake was intentionally flooded "closed" in the winter and released in the summer. It likely had the high water level in the winter, but I am trying to get info for '71. The Willamette slough flows in and out (controlled) or did. The lake edges are not really explorable by foot, it is a wetland/marsh explorable by canoe. The shoreline is really not well explored.. Anybody have a spare cadaver dog handy and a canoe,,, j/k

If a body did impact a marsh, I am sure it would be buried in the bottom. It isn't very deep. The rotting/movement or yearly flood/release process could loosen some money. About a 6 mile float to TBAR. YES, this is theoretical.. so far

video
http://www.opb.org/television/programs/ofg/segment/smith-bybee-lakes/

Are there any pilots that can comment on the potential flight path between those waypoints..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 12, 2015, 12:50:25 AM
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The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?

Snowmmans map is direct lines connecting the waypoints, it is not the actual flightpath, it would have been smoother taking it closer to I5.. Was it close enough??? IDK we don't have data in between the waypoints. It looks real close. Smith Lake was intentionally flooded "closed" in the winter and released in the summer. It likely had the high water level in the winter, but I am trying to get info for '71. The Willamette slough flows in and out (controlled) or did. The lake edges are not really explorable by foot, it is a wetland/marsh explorable by canoe. The shoreline is really not well explored.. Anybody have a spare cadaver dog handy and a canoe,,, j/k

If a body did impact a marsh, I am sure it would be buried in the bottom. It isn't very deep. The rotting/movement or yearly flood/release process could loosen some money. About a 6 mile float to TBAR. YES, this is theoretical.. so far

video
http://www.opb.org/television/programs/ofg/segment/smith-bybee-lakes/

Are there any pilots that can comment on the potential flight path between those waypoints..

There was no reason for the flight path between the Toledo area to the DME point south of Portland being anything other than a straight line.  In order for the airliner to be at that DME point at 8:18 PM, it would have had to pass over Tina Bar approximately six minutes earlier or about 8:12 PM which is one of the predicted jump times.

Keep in mind that these times are given in whole minutes.  If more accurate times, such as those on the ATC transcripts were available, these times could be refined and stated in minutes and seconds thereby increasing the accuracy of the estimated aircraft positions.

Also remember that earlier versions of the Tina Bar area topographical maps described the area between the eastern shore of the Columbia River and the eastern shore of Caterpillar Island as "mud flats".  That area has now been dredged and a marina in located in it.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 12, 2015, 01:08:10 AM
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The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?

Snowmmans map is direct lines connecting the waypoints, it is not the actual flightpath, it would have been smoother taking it closer to I5.. Was it close enough??? IDK we don't have data in between the waypoints. It looks real close. Smith Lake was intentionally flooded "closed" in the winter and released in the summer. It likely had the high water level in the winter, but I am trying to get info for '71. The Willamette slough flows in and out (controlled) or did. The lake edges are not really explorable by foot, it is a wetland/marsh explorable by canoe. The shoreline is really not well explored.. Anybody have a spare cadaver dog handy and a canoe,,, j/k

If a body did impact a marsh, I am sure it would be buried in the bottom. It isn't very deep. The rotting/movement or yearly flood/release process could loosen some money. About a 6 mile float to TBAR. YES, this is theoretical.. so far

video
http://www.opb.org/television/programs/ofg/segment/smith-bybee-lakes/

Are there any pilots that can comment on the potential flight path between those waypoints..

It would have been an area not searched or probably not even considered. If he augured in there 3 minutes later all there is is a few bubbles, potentially. The money and Cooper could sit there until as late as the end of the drought of '78 then with the heavy rains and flooding things are set lose to move ... but one attractive thing in this theory is a remote place right in the middle of an urban setting and a place where a body might auger in and not be noticed.

What happens to his chute?

 
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 12, 2015, 01:11:38 AM
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The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?

Snowmmans map is direct lines connecting the waypoints, it is not the actual flightpath, it would have been smoother taking it closer to I5.. Was it close enough??? IDK we don't have data in between the waypoints. It looks real close. Smith Lake was intentionally flooded "closed" in the winter and released in the summer. It likely had the high water level in the winter, but I am trying to get info for '71. The Willamette slough flows in and out (controlled) or did. The lake edges are not really explorable by foot, it is a wetland/marsh explorable by canoe. The shoreline is really not well explored.. Anybody have a spare cadaver dog handy and a canoe,,, j/k

If a body did impact a marsh, I am sure it would be buried in the bottom. It isn't very deep. The rotting/movement or yearly flood/release process could loosen some money. About a 6 mile float to TBAR. YES, this is theoretical.. so far

video
http://www.opb.org/television/programs/ofg/segment/smith-bybee-lakes/

Are there any pilots that can comment on the potential flight path between those waypoints..

There was no reason for the flight path between the Toledo area to the DME point south of Portland being anything other than a straight line.  In order for the airliner to be at that DME point at 8:18 PM, it would have had to pass over Tina Bar approximately six minutes earlier or about 8:12 PM which is one of the predicted jump times.

Keep in mind that these times are given in whole minutes.  If more accurate times, such as those on the ATC transcripts were available, these times could be refined and stated in minutes and seconds thereby increasing the accuracy of the estimated aircraft positions.

Also remember that earlier versions of the Tina Bar area topographical maps described the area between the eastern shore of the Columbia River and the eastern shore of Caterpillar Island as "mud flats".  That area has now been dredged and a marina in located in it.

and, if he augers in there it's a short travel distance for the money... which favors some money surviving to be found... with an uncomplicated flow scenario between two geographically proximate points.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 01:24:11 AM
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The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?

Snowmmans map is direct lines connecting the waypoints, it is not the actual flightpath, it would have been smoother taking it closer to I5.. Was it close enough??? IDK we don't have data in between the waypoints. It looks real close. Smith Lake was intentionally flooded "closed" in the winter and released in the summer. It likely had the high water level in the winter, but I am trying to get info for '71. The Willamette slough flows in and out (controlled) or did. The lake edges are not really explorable by foot, it is a wetland/marsh explorable by canoe. The shoreline is really not well explored.. Anybody have a spare cadaver dog handy and a canoe,,, j/k

If a body did impact a marsh, I am sure it would be buried in the bottom. It isn't very deep. The rotting/movement or yearly flood/release process could loosen some money. About a 6 mile float to TBAR. YES, this is theoretical.. so far

video
http://www.opb.org/television/programs/ofg/segment/smith-bybee-lakes/

Are there any pilots that can comment on the potential flight path between those waypoints..

It would have been an area not searched or probably not even considered. If he augured in there 3 minutes later all there is is a few bubbles, potentially. The money and Cooper could sit there until as late as the end of the drought of '78 then with the heavy rains and flooding things are set lose to move ... but one attractive thing in this theory is a remote place right in the middle of an urban setting and a place where a body might auger in and not be noticed.

What happens to his chute?



hey, I am still trying to figure out IF he could have landed there,, :o

There was work done in there over the years and the two lakes are connected to the rivers affected by tides and river levels, a direct float to TBAR is possible,

That lake isn't very deep, more like a marsh,  an impact might bury a body and unopened chute many feet into the bottom. There was some dredging dumped into it, as well as channels made.. but hard to really pin down levels and work timelines.

more general info,,

http://aol.research.pdx.edu/lakes/17090012006623
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 12, 2015, 05:51:47 AM
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The distance from the tip of Hayden to I5 is approx. 1.3 miles. the plane doesn't cross I5 until it's too late for the Smith lake landing. the distance from I5 to Smith lake is approx. 1.3 miles.

It's a possibility, but the odds are low if you go by the map. the black lines where made by the FBI, and the green is what Sluggo copied over if I'm correct.

If we go by Carr stating they claimed the bump was felt around 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper which was 8:05. this gives a time frame of no later than 8:15.

No cars were left at any airports. I believe they covered that. we have no proof Cooper knew where he was. that's the difference between Cooper, and McCoy. Cooper never asked anything about altitude, wind, location, nothing. McCoy stayed on top of things like he was a co-pilot. 

The area in question is a National Preserve. one can expect people around often. if Cooper was at the bottom, or the money was at the bottom. I doubt the flooding would cause it to surface. odds are low again that it was lying around the area waiting to be moved by a flood?

Snowmmans map is direct lines connecting the waypoints, it is not the actual flightpath, it would have been smoother taking it closer to I5.. Was it close enough??? IDK we don't have data in between the waypoints. It looks real close. Smith Lake was intentionally flooded "closed" in the winter and released in the summer. It likely had the high water level in the winter, but I am trying to get info for '71. The Willamette slough flows in and out (controlled) or did. The lake edges are not really explorable by foot, it is a wetland/marsh explorable by canoe. The shoreline is really not well explored.. Anybody have a spare cadaver dog handy and a canoe,,, j/k

If a body did impact a marsh, I am sure it would be buried in the bottom. It isn't very deep. The rotting/movement or yearly flood/release process could loosen some money. About a 6 mile float to TBAR. YES, this is theoretical.. so far

video
http://www.opb.org/television/programs/ofg/segment/smith-bybee-lakes/

Are there any pilots that can comment on the potential flight path between those waypoints..

It would have been an area not searched or probably not even considered. If he augured in there 3 minutes later all there is is a few bubbles, potentially. The money and Cooper could sit there until as late as the end of the drought of '78 then with the heavy rains and flooding things are set lose to move ... but one attractive thing in this theory is a remote place right in the middle of an urban setting and a place where a body might auger in and not be noticed.

What happens to his chute?



hey, I am still trying to figure out IF he could have landed there,, :o

There was work done in there over the years and the two lakes are connected to the rivers affected by tides and river levels, a direct float to TBAR is possible,

That lake isn't very deep, more like a marsh,  an impact might bury a body and unopened chute many feet into the bottom. There was some dredging dumped into it, as well as channels made.. but hard to really pin down levels and work timelines.

more general info,,

http://aol.research.pdx.edu/lakes/17090012006623

no problem - no pressure here. It's an interesting idea and related to other critical issues and interesting options, all worthy of discussion. So no pressure here of any kind. Im all ears... as you said it's a fresh idea and I now see where you're going....

Dont anyone ever get the idea, ideas need my approval here or that I think that, because I don't think that and they don't need my approval in any event, in case I need to say this.  ;)   


Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 09:47:48 AM
My maths was wrong when I upped the speed to 170k per the cockpit communications. I forgot to update the m/sec

use this to get t for 10000, 170k and 200lbs = 26.3 seconds in the air
http://www1.bbiq.jp/~zhukov/calc/calc.html

convert 170k to m/sec = 87.5 m/sec
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/velocity-units-converter-d_1035.html

speed * time = distance

87.5 m/sec * 26.3 = 2301 meters or 1.43 miles forward distance from drop in a no pull (assume estimation +/-)

Lets try Occams razor.. simplest assumptions

The bump felt was the stairs dropping.
The initial FBI flight path drawn in BLACK is correct
He left the plane over Hayden Island near I5
He travelled forward approximately 1.43 miles (2300 m) to the NorthEast area of Smith Lake (2100 m I5 on Hayden to Smith Lake)
He died on impact in a no pull
He disappears embedded deep into the marshy bottom, winter is high water level but the lake is very shallow
The river tides (affect lake), body decomposition, yearly flooding or work loosens some money years later
It is a 6-7 mile waterway float downstream to TBAR

AND, it seems nobody has looked, he might still be there

This relies on the flightpath.

"Speculation warning" If the black pen FBI flightpath is correct and there was a slight South turn over Hayden, he may have been jarred from the stairs. If he was at the end of the stairs looking for ground markers and the plane turned, he may have lost his grip and got tossed off prior to his intended LZ.

That area of the Lake/marsh is really only accessible by canoe,,,

Cadaver dogs can detect 15 feet underground and a 100 year old body.. (not referring to Jo)

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/expert_well-trained_cadaver_dogs_95_percent_accurate_can_smell_remains_15_feet_d.html

Tom Osterkamp,1,2 Ph.D.
K9 Water Searches: Scent and ScentTransport Considerations

"Consideration of training aids that dogs are known to detect can aid in the identification of potential scent sources from a sub- merged body. Dogs can detect submerged clothing and shoes (7), possibly from VOCs in the items as a result of contact with the skin. Some handlers use human hair that is normally covered with glandular secretions as a training aid. Fingerprints consist of water, soluble compounds, and insoluble compounds modified by hydrolysis and bacterial degradation that include VOCs that have been impli- cated in human scent (14,16). A single fingerprint on a slide immersed in water produced an oil film on the water surface within a few minutes (27) although the transport process remains unknown. Human bones produce VOCs (20) and have been used as training aids that are detectable by water search dogs."

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDcQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FTom_Osterkamp%2Fpublication%2F51039773_K9_water_searches_scent_and_scent_transport_considerations%2Flinks%2F546fcbaa0cf216f8cfa9e656.pdf&ei=Twq0VJBKldSgBK77grAC&usg=AFQjCNHR_AxCjzK88xAg9EJwyJvu_iqvrg&bvm=bv.83339334,d.cGU



(http://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2013/1306c-db-cooper-part3-the-hunt/dropzonemap-420.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Columbiasloughwatershed.png/769px-Columbiasloughwatershed.png)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 12, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
Flyjack,

Have you ever noticed that physics books ignore the atmosphere when discussing such things as bombs being dropped from aircraft, artillery fire, and everything else that involves horizontal motion in the atmosphere?  And that these same books include the atmosphere when they discuss only vertical motion in the atmosphere.

The reason for the above is that vertical motion only is easily handled mathematically by a slide rule or by hand.  But adding ANY horizontal motion to the problem produces a fourth-order quadratic equation (or some such thing) that requires something such as a Cray Supercomputer to produce meaningful results.

For parachutists, jumping from about 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH (195 Knots) as Cooper did, the rule of thumb for a falling body (unopened parachute) is that all forward motion will be cancelled out after about 1250 feet of forward travel.  Then the body will fall vertically but will be influenced by any horizontal wind that exists.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable "skydiver horizontal spread" without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 60 seconds.  His speed at ground contact would be about 120 MPH.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable head-straight-down position without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 40 seconds or less.  His speed at ground contact would be about 180+ MPH.

Back about 2009, I did some calculations about what would happen to Cooper's aerodynamics when he tied the money bag to himself.  Basically, the volume and weight of the money bag, plus other things Cooper had (such as his raincoat), would balance each other to keep his speed in a head first straight down fall to about the 180+ MPH mentioned above.  And Cooper's "configuration" would probably stabilize him in a head first fall.

So Cooper had about 40 seconds at most from the time he separated from the stairs to open his parachute.  There is no evidence that he did so.  This was probably Cooper's first actual jump and all of the events probably caused him to become disoriented and he lost track of time.  If Cooper was a no-pull, the canopy is probably still in the pack.

Further, if you have access to a Cray Supercomputer, preferably more than one, and a staff of programmers and operators to run it, plus someone to pay the bills, please PM me as fast as possible.

Robert99
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 01:51:16 PM
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Flyjack,

Have you ever noticed that physics books ignore the atmosphere when discussing such things as bombs being dropped from aircraft, artillery fire, and everything else that involves horizontal motion in the atmosphere?  And that these same books include the atmosphere when they discuss only vertical motion in the atmosphere.

The reason for the above is that vertical motion only is easily handled mathematically by a slide rule or by hand.  But adding ANY horizontal motion to the problem produces a fourth-order quadratic equation (or some such thing) that requires something such as a Cray Supercomputer to produce meaningful results.

For parachutists, jumping from about 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH (195 Knots) as Cooper did, the rule of thumb for a falling body (unopened parachute) is that all forward motion will be cancelled out after about 1250 feet of forward travel.  Then the body will fall vertically but will be influenced by any horizontal wind that exists.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable "skydiver horizontal spread" without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 60 seconds.  His speed at ground contact would be about 120 MPH.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable head-straight-down position without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 40 seconds or less.  His speed at ground contact would be about 180+ MPH.

Back about 2009, I did some calculations about what would happen to Cooper's aerodynamics when he tied the money bag to himself.  Basically, the volume and weight of the money bag, plus other things Cooper had (such as his raincoat), would balance each other to keep his speed in a head first straight down fall to about the 180+ MPH mentioned above.  And Cooper's "configuration" would probably stabilize him in a head first fall.

So Cooper had about 40 seconds at most from the time he separated from the stairs to open his parachute.  There is no evidence that he did so.  This was probably Cooper's first actual jump and all of the events probably caused him to become disoriented and he lost track of time.  If Cooper was a no-pull, the canopy is probably still in the pack.

Further, if you have access to a Cray Supercomputer, preferably more than one, and a staff of programmers and operators to run it, plus someone to pay the bills, please PM me as fast as possible.

Robert99

Yes, I agree, I found this out when trying to find a formula.. it gets extremely complex with the variables, known and unknown. I tried to be conservative with the calculation.

The purpose was not really "precision" but a probability that he could have landed in Smith Lake given the FBI flightpath, if 26.3 sec flight time is a conservative lower bound and you found 40 sec as a possible upper bound, that is 1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel making it possible for him to land in Smith Lake using the original FBI flightpath over Hayden..  What really makes this "theory" interesting is that there could be something still there unlike a landing in the Columbia and it isn't expensive to run a cadaver dog or sonar over that area.

Though, I used 170 knots per the crew communication, not 195..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 12, 2015, 02:33:35 PM
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Flyjack,

Have you ever noticed that physics books ignore the atmosphere when discussing such things as bombs being dropped from aircraft, artillery fire, and everything else that involves horizontal motion in the atmosphere?  And that these same books include the atmosphere when they discuss only vertical motion in the atmosphere.

The reason for the above is that vertical motion only is easily handled mathematically by a slide rule or by hand.  But adding ANY horizontal motion to the problem produces a fourth-order quadratic equation (or some such thing) that requires something such as a Cray Supercomputer to produce meaningful results.

For parachutists, jumping from about 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH (195 Knots) as Cooper did, the rule of thumb for a falling body (unopened parachute) is that all forward motion will be cancelled out after about 1250 feet of forward travel.  Then the body will fall vertically but will be influenced by any horizontal wind that exists.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable "skydiver horizontal spread" without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 60 seconds.  His speed at ground contact would be about 120 MPH.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable head-straight-down position without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 40 seconds or less.  His speed at ground contact would be about 180+ MPH.

Back about 2009, I did some calculations about what would happen to Cooper's aerodynamics when he tied the money bag to himself.  Basically, the volume and weight of the money bag, plus other things Cooper had (such as his raincoat), would balance each other to keep his speed in a head first straight down fall to about the 180+ MPH mentioned above.  And Cooper's "configuration" would probably stabilize him in a head first fall.

So Cooper had about 40 seconds at most from the time he separated from the stairs to open his parachute.  There is no evidence that he did so.  This was probably Cooper's first actual jump and all of the events probably caused him to become disoriented and he lost track of time.  If Cooper was a no-pull, the canopy is probably still in the pack.

Further, if you have access to a Cray Supercomputer, preferably more than one, and a staff of programmers and operators to run it, plus someone to pay the bills, please PM me as fast as possible.

Robert99

Yes, I agree, I found this out when trying to find a formula.. it gets extremely complex with the variables, known and unknown. I tried to be conservative with the calculation.

The purpose was not really "precision" but a probability that he could have landed in Smith Lake given the FBI flightpath, if 26.3 sec flight time is a conservative lower bound and you found 40 sec as a possible upper bound, that is 1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel making it possible for him to land in Smith Lake using the original FBI flightpath over Hayden..  What really makes this "theory" interesting is that there could be something still there unlike a landing in the Columbia and it isn't expensive to run a cadaver dog over that area.

Though, I used 170 knots per the crew communication, not 195..

Flyjack, The 170 Knots mentioned by the crew is what they see on their cockpit instruments.  The 195 Knots is the true airspeed of the aircraft with respect to the atmosphere.  If there were no winds, then that 195 Knots would also be the speed over the ground.  But the ground speed is going to be less than that by the amount of the headwind component from the winds aloft.  The winds aloft were roughly 30 knots from the southwest and the airliner was heading 178 degrees or almost straight south.  That produces a headwind component for the airliner of about 15 to 20 knots which must be deducted from the 195 knots true airspeed to give the speed of the airliner over the ground.

I apparently didn't get the point across about the distance Cooper would have travelled down track when he separated from the airliner.  That distance would not be more than about 1250 feet under the known jump conditions.  And he would have been blown slightly towards the northeast by the winds aloft.  Assuming that Cooper would have been blown about 1000 feet to the northeast by the winds (about 10 knots at ground level and about 30 knots at 10,000 feet), in order for him to impact as a no-pull at the money find location at Tina Bar, he would have to separate from the airliner about 1250 feet North of Tina Bar and essentially over the western edge of the Columbia River (which runs North and South at Tina Bar).

To repeat, assuming a no-pull situation, Cooper's forward motion down the airliner's track would be reduced to zero within about 1250 feet (with respect to the air mass), and his descent would be straight down thereafter except as influenced by the winds aloft which would blow him slightly to the northeast.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 12, 2015, 02:54:40 PM
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Flyjack,

Have you ever noticed that physics books ignore the atmosphere when discussing such things as bombs being dropped from aircraft, artillery fire, and everything else that involves horizontal motion in the atmosphere?  And that these same books include the atmosphere when they discuss only vertical motion in the atmosphere.

The reason for the above is that vertical motion only is easily handled mathematically by a slide rule or by hand.  But adding ANY horizontal motion to the problem produces a fourth-order quadratic equation (or some such thing) that requires something such as a Cray Supercomputer to produce meaningful results.

For parachutists, jumping from about 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH (195 Knots) as Cooper did, the rule of thumb for a falling body (unopened parachute) is that all forward motion will be cancelled out after about 1250 feet of forward travel.  Then the body will fall vertically but will be influenced by any horizontal wind that exists.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable "skydiver horizontal spread" without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 60 seconds.  His speed at ground contact would be about 120 MPH.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable head-straight-down position without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 40 seconds or less.  His speed at ground contact would be about 180+ MPH.

Back about 2009, I did some calculations about what would happen to Cooper's aerodynamics when he tied the money bag to himself.  Basically, the volume and weight of the money bag, plus other things Cooper had (such as his raincoat), would balance each other to keep his speed in a head first straight down fall to about the 180+ MPH mentioned above.  And Cooper's "configuration" would probably stabilize him in a head first fall.

So Cooper had about 40 seconds at most from the time he separated from the stairs to open his parachute.  There is no evidence that he did so.  This was probably Cooper's first actual jump and all of the events probably caused him to become disoriented and he lost track of time.  If Cooper was a no-pull, the canopy is probably still in the pack.

Further, if you have access to a Cray Supercomputer, preferably more than one, and a staff of programmers and operators to run it, plus someone to pay the bills, please PM me as fast as possible.

Robert99

Yes, I agree, I found this out when trying to find a formula.. it gets extremely complex with the variables, known and unknown. I tried to be conservative with the calculation.

The purpose was not really "precision" but a probability that he could have landed in Smith Lake given the FBI flightpath, if 26.3 sec flight time is a conservative lower bound and you found 40 sec as a possible upper bound, that is 1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel making it possible for him to land in Smith Lake using the original FBI flightpath over Hayden..  What really makes this "theory" interesting is that there could be something still there unlike a landing in the Columbia and it isn't expensive to run a cadaver dog or sonar over that area.

Though, I used 170 knots per the crew communication, not 195..

Im not sure about your '1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel'.  The skydivers at DZ used 1200 feet (forward throw).
???

Quoted from R99's above: "To repeat, assuming a no-pull situation, Cooper's forward motion down the airliner's track would be reduced to zero within about 1250 feet (with respect to the air mass), and his descent would be straight down (actually parabolic) thereafter except as influenced by the winds aloft which would blow him slightly to the northeast."

A no-pull would account for no parachute seen. However, let's assume he does get the chute open and still lands in this area (extended timeline allowing) - he is still is potentially in a 'sticky' situation ... up to his ass in marsh!   He might have had to separate himself from the money container to get himself out? Or, lets assume a partial chute opening - that scenario is a virtual no-pull at a slower velocity but he is still up to his neck in muck ... and maybe injured or dead.
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 04:31:46 PM
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Flyjack,

Have you ever noticed that physics books ignore the atmosphere when discussing such things as bombs being dropped from aircraft, artillery fire, and everything else that involves horizontal motion in the atmosphere?  And that these same books include the atmosphere when they discuss only vertical motion in the atmosphere.

The reason for the above is that vertical motion only is easily handled mathematically by a slide rule or by hand.  But adding ANY horizontal motion to the problem produces a fourth-order quadratic equation (or some such thing) that requires something such as a Cray Supercomputer to produce meaningful results.

For parachutists, jumping from about 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH (195 Knots) as Cooper did, the rule of thumb for a falling body (unopened parachute) is that all forward motion will be cancelled out after about 1250 feet of forward travel.  Then the body will fall vertically but will be influenced by any horizontal wind that exists.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable "skydiver horizontal spread" without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 60 seconds.  His speed at ground contact would be about 120 MPH.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable head-straight-down position without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 40 seconds or less.  His speed at ground contact would be about 180+ MPH.

Back about 2009, I did some calculations about what would happen to Cooper's aerodynamics when he tied the money bag to himself.  Basically, the volume and weight of the money bag, plus other things Cooper had (such as his raincoat), would balance each other to keep his speed in a head first straight down fall to about the 180+ MPH mentioned above.  And Cooper's "configuration" would probably stabilize him in a head first fall.

So Cooper had about 40 seconds at most from the time he separated from the stairs to open his parachute.  There is no evidence that he did so.  This was probably Cooper's first actual jump and all of the events probably caused him to become disoriented and he lost track of time.  If Cooper was a no-pull, the canopy is probably still in the pack.

Further, if you have access to a Cray Supercomputer, preferably more than one, and a staff of programmers and operators to run it, plus someone to pay the bills, please PM me as fast as possible.

Robert99

Yes, I agree, I found this out when trying to find a formula.. it gets extremely complex with the variables, known and unknown. I tried to be conservative with the calculation.

The purpose was not really "precision" but a probability that he could have landed in Smith Lake given the FBI flightpath, if 26.3 sec flight time is a conservative lower bound and you found 40 sec as a possible upper bound, that is 1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel making it possible for him to land in Smith Lake using the original FBI flightpath over Hayden..  What really makes this "theory" interesting is that there could be something still there unlike a landing in the Columbia and it isn't expensive to run a cadaver dog or sonar over that area.

Though, I used 170 knots per the crew communication, not 195..

Im not sure about your '1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel'.  The skydivers at DZ used 1200 feet (forward throw).
???

Quoted from R99's above: "To repeat, assuming a no-pull situation, Cooper's forward motion down the airliner's track would be reduced to zero within about 1250 feet (with respect to the air mass), and his descent would be straight down (actually parabolic) thereafter except as influenced by the winds aloft which would blow him slightly to the northeast."

A no-pull would account for no parachute seen. However, let's assume he does get the chute open and still lands in this area (extended timeline allowing) - he is still is potentially in a 'sticky' situation ... up to his ass in marsh!   He might have had to separate himself from the money container to get himself out? Or, lets assume a partial chute opening - that scenario is a virtual no-pull at a slower velocity but he is still up to his neck in muck ... and maybe injured or dead.

I calculated 1.4 miles for an "object", that jives with other calculations and tables for projectile motion dropped from a plane, but I did find the skydiver rule of thumb that forward throw =  4 x m/sec, that would be about 400m, far shorter. Though a head down might increase that, still nowhere close. Why such a difference?? attributed to drag alone?? I'll have to look into it more.

hard to see a pulled chute going unnoticed,
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 12, 2015, 04:49:54 PM
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Flyjack,

Have you ever noticed that physics books ignore the atmosphere when discussing such things as bombs being dropped from aircraft, artillery fire, and everything else that involves horizontal motion in the atmosphere?  And that these same books include the atmosphere when they discuss only vertical motion in the atmosphere.

The reason for the above is that vertical motion only is easily handled mathematically by a slide rule or by hand.  But adding ANY horizontal motion to the problem produces a fourth-order quadratic equation (or some such thing) that requires something such as a Cray Supercomputer to produce meaningful results.

For parachutists, jumping from about 10,000 feet and at about 225 MPH (195 Knots) as Cooper did, the rule of thumb for a falling body (unopened parachute) is that all forward motion will be cancelled out after about 1250 feet of forward travel.  Then the body will fall vertically but will be influenced by any horizontal wind that exists.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable "skydiver horizontal spread" without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 60 seconds.  His speed at ground contact would be about 120 MPH.

If a parachutist descends from 10,000 feet in a stable head-straight-down position without opening his parachute, he will be on the ground (and dead) in about 40 seconds or less.  His speed at ground contact would be about 180+ MPH.

Back about 2009, I did some calculations about what would happen to Cooper's aerodynamics when he tied the money bag to himself.  Basically, the volume and weight of the money bag, plus other things Cooper had (such as his raincoat), would balance each other to keep his speed in a head first straight down fall to about the 180+ MPH mentioned above.  And Cooper's "configuration" would probably stabilize him in a head first fall.

So Cooper had about 40 seconds at most from the time he separated from the stairs to open his parachute.  There is no evidence that he did so.  This was probably Cooper's first actual jump and all of the events probably caused him to become disoriented and he lost track of time.  If Cooper was a no-pull, the canopy is probably still in the pack.

Further, if you have access to a Cray Supercomputer, preferably more than one, and a staff of programmers and operators to run it, plus someone to pay the bills, please PM me as fast as possible.

Robert99

Yes, I agree, I found this out when trying to find a formula.. it gets extremely complex with the variables, known and unknown. I tried to be conservative with the calculation.

The purpose was not really "precision" but a probability that he could have landed in Smith Lake given the FBI flightpath, if 26.3 sec flight time is a conservative lower bound and you found 40 sec as a possible upper bound, that is 1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel making it possible for him to land in Smith Lake using the original FBI flightpath over Hayden..  What really makes this "theory" interesting is that there could be something still there unlike a landing in the Columbia and it isn't expensive to run a cadaver dog or sonar over that area.

Though, I used 170 knots per the crew communication, not 195..

Im not sure about your '1.4 to 2.17 miles forward travel'.  The skydivers at DZ used 1200 feet (forward throw).
???

Quoted from R99's above: "To repeat, assuming a no-pull situation, Cooper's forward motion down the airliner's track would be reduced to zero within about 1250 feet (with respect to the air mass), and his descent would be straight down (actually parabolic) thereafter except as influenced by the winds aloft which would blow him slightly to the northeast."

A no-pull would account for no parachute seen. However, let's assume he does get the chute open and still lands in this area (extended timeline allowing) - he is still is potentially in a 'sticky' situation ... up to his ass in marsh!   He might have had to separate himself from the money container to get himself out? Or, lets assume a partial chute opening - that scenario is a virtual no-pull at a slower velocity but he is still up to his neck in muck ... and maybe injured or dead.

I calculated 1.4 miles for an "object", that jives with other calculations and tables for projectile motion dropped from a plane, but I did find the skydiver rule of thumb that forward throw =  4 x m/sec, that would be about 400m, far shorter. Though a head down might increase that, still nowhere close. Why such a difference?? attributed to drag alone?? I'll have to look into it more.

hard to see a pulled chute going unnoticed,

Keep in mind that a bomb or artillery shell is aerodynamically streamlined (at least to some extent) and, therefore, don't have much resistance from the air.  They also have a high density (weight to volume ratio).  Human bodies are not very streamlined and have relatively low density.  Consequently, air resistance will have much greater impact on the human body than on a bomb or projectile.

The 1200/1250 feet "forward throw" discussed above applies only to human bodies and will vary between humans based on their weight and the body volume that is available to provide air resistance.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 05:19:23 PM
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Keep in mind that a bomb or artillery shell is aerodynamically streamlined (at least to some extent) and, therefore, don't have much resistance from the air.  They also have a high density (weight to volume ratio).  Human bodies are not very streamlined and have relatively low density.  Consequently, air resistance will have much greater impact on the human body than on a bomb or projectile.

The 1200/1250 feet "forward throw" discussed above applies only to human bodies and will vary between humans based on their weight and the body volume that is available to provide air resistance.

Where did the 1200/1250 number come from, not disputing the number just trying to understand the context. Is it based on the Cooper metrics.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Robert99 on January 12, 2015, 06:56:23 PM
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Keep in mind that a bomb or artillery shell is aerodynamically streamlined (at least to some extent) and, therefore, don't have much resistance from the air.  They also have a high density (weight to volume ratio).  Human bodies are not very streamlined and have relatively low density.  Consequently, air resistance will have much greater impact on the human body than on a bomb or projectile.

The 1200/1250 feet "forward throw" discussed above applies only to human bodies and will vary between humans based on their weight and the body volume that is available to provide air resistance.

Where did the 1200/1250 number come from, not disputing the number just trying to understand the context. Is is based on the Cooper metrics.

Those numbers are basically just an estimate based on the experience of skydivers.  I think there are charts on this subject in some skydiver type books.  Cooper's speed and altitude (about 225 MPH true airspeed and 10,000 feet above sea level) are within the general range of experienced skydivers.  I imagine that present day skydivers, such as 377, who probably use a Twin Otter to get to about 12,500 feet, will jump at a speed of about 150 MPH true airspeed.  Of course, if 377 jumps from a DC-9 at 20,000 feet and doing 300 MPH, he will travel further down the airliner's track before his forward motion is completely stopped.

If Cooper ended up in a head down descent, he would probably be doing 180+ MPH which is lower than the 225 MPH that he was doing when he jumped.  He would slow down from the 225 MPH to his terminal velocity of 180+ real fast.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 12, 2015, 08:02:04 PM
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Keep in mind that a bomb or artillery shell is aerodynamically streamlined (at least to some extent) and, therefore, don't have much resistance from the air.  They also have a high density (weight to volume ratio).  Human bodies are not very streamlined and have relatively low density.  Consequently, air resistance will have much greater impact on the human body than on a bomb or projectile.

The 1200/1250 feet "forward throw" discussed above applies only to human bodies and will vary between humans based on their weight and the body volume that is available to provide air resistance.

Where did the 1200/1250 number come from, not disputing the number just trying to understand the context. Is is based on the Cooper metrics.

Those numbers are basically just an estimate based on the experience of skydivers.  I think there are charts on this subject in some skydiver type books.  Cooper's speed and altitude (about 225 MPH true airspeed and 10,000 feet above sea level) are within the general range of experienced skydivers.  I imagine that present day skydivers, such as 377, who probably use a Twin Otter to get to about 12,500 feet, will jump at a speed of about 150 MPH true airspeed.  Of course, if 377 jumps from a DC-9 at 20,000 feet and doing 300 MPH, he will travel further down the airliner's track before his forward motion is completely stopped.

If Cooper ended up in a head down descent, he would probably be doing 180+ MPH which is lower than the 225 MPH that he was doing when he jumped.  He would slow down from the 225 MPH to his terminal velocity of 180+ real fast.

Terminal velocity can be 200mph in a ball/head down to 120mph spread belly, big range, the 1200 ft seems way too short for Cooper metrics but 1.4m too far with resistance.. I have to do more research, I always assumed "normal" exit speeds were 80-90mph, a 1200 ft sounds more right there with a belly drop. But at even at a half mile (2500 ft) that means that the flightpath would've had to briefly cross the I5 over Hayden..
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 13, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
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Keep in mind that a bomb or artillery shell is aerodynamically streamlined (at least to some extent) and, therefore, don't have much resistance from the air.  They also have a high density (weight to volume ratio).  Human bodies are not very streamlined and have relatively low density.  Consequently, air resistance will have much greater impact on the human body than on a bomb or projectile.

The 1200/1250 feet "forward throw" discussed above applies only to human bodies and will vary between humans based on their weight and the body volume that is available to provide air resistance.

Where did the 1200/1250 number come from, not disputing the number just trying to understand the context. Is is based on the Cooper metrics.

Those numbers are basically just an estimate based on the experience of skydivers.  I think there are charts on this subject in some skydiver type books.  Cooper's speed and altitude (about 225 MPH true airspeed and 10,000 feet above sea level) are within the general range of experienced skydivers.  I imagine that present day skydivers, such as 377, who probably use a Twin Otter to get to about 12,500 feet, will jump at a speed of about 150 MPH true airspeed.  Of course, if 377 jumps from a DC-9 at 20,000 feet and doing 300 MPH, he will travel further down the airliner's track before his forward motion is completely stopped.

If Cooper ended up in a head down descent, he would probably be doing 180+ MPH which is lower than the 225 MPH that he was doing when he jumped.  He would slow down from the 225 MPH to his terminal velocity of 180+ real fast.

forgive me if I am missing something but I can't find anything to compute forward throw, in fact it is defined as..

"l. Forward Throw. This refers to the effect of inertia on a falling object. An object that leaves an aircraft moves at the same speed as the aircraft. The parachutist (or bundle) continues to move in the direction of flight until the dynamics of gravity and the parachute take effect. Forward throw for rotary-wing aircraft equals half the aircraft speed, expressed in meters. Table 6-7 shows the amount of forward throw from a fixed-wing aircraft, by distance."

The table shows a forward throw of 229 meters from a c130 (much slower) in a parachute. Forward throw examples and calcs seem to always refer to a pulled chute jump. so, forward throw of 750 feet at 125 exit mph with an open chute makes sense, that makes sense that Cooper at a much higher speed would be 1200 ft forward throw with a pulled chute,

Forward throw seems irrelevant in a no pull,, an object will continue to move forward till ground impact in a 25 sec arc fall.. the missing number is an accurate drag number..

Are we mixing pull metrics with no pull,,

I understand the concepts, but even with average drag, I still get almost a 1 mile distance from exit to landing in a no pull.. not accounting for wind or a head down.

What is the average drag number of a belly free fall and for a head down, (I have read that it is about half).. further the exit speed at 170k instrument is close to a possible TV in a head down.. he could have been close to TV the entire fall in a head down no pull
Title: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: Robert99 on January 13, 2015, 04:02:38 PM
Flyjack, Let's start over.

First, a hypothetical illustration.  Assume an aircraft flying two miles above sea level, no surface winds or winds aloft, and a ground speed of 240 MPH (four miles per minute).  Let's add a further simplification, there is NO ATMOSPHERE as well (repeat, this is a HYPOTHETICAL illustration).

An object (any object) that is dropped from this aircraft under these conditions will, with respect to the aircraft, stay directly under the aircraft until it strikes the earth.  While descending from the aircraft, this object is only subjected to the laws of gravity which are explained in elementary physics textbooks, Wikipedia, and other online Internet sources.  Using the relatively simple equations for a body falling from rest in a vacuum, the time of the fall of the object from the aircraft to the ground can be calculated. Then the distance that the aircraft travelled in that time can also be calculated.

The weight vector (as used here, vector means a force acting in a specified direction) of any body, including the one described above, is ALWAYS pointing towards the center of the earth.

Now let's revisit the above problem and remove the no atmosphere assumption.  Before considering horizontal motion, let's assume that an object is dropped from a stationary balloon.  We now have to consider the atmosphere's impact (or air resistance) on the falling body.  For purely vertical motion, this is also relatively simple and problems along this line are considered in elementary physics books and such.  Other things being the same, it would take the same object, falling from the same height, longer to reach the ground with air resistance than if it was in a vacuum.

If the falling object has sufficient altitude, it will reach a speed where the air resistance is equal to the weight of the object.  The air resistance, or drag force, in this instance is the same magnitude and pointing in the opposite direction of the weight.  In addition, the drag force is ALWAYS parallel to and pointing in the opposite direction of the free-stream velocity vector.  And in this example, the free-stream velocity vector also points straight down or towards the center of the earth.

When we add horizontal motion in an atmosphere to our problem, the situation goes from relatively simple to intractable.  The equations governing this horizontal motion become about fourth-order quadratic non-linear equations and require something on the order of a Cray supercomputer to solve.  That is why we don't see tables of actual computations.  Instead we have estimates and guesses about the horizontal motion of the falling body.

Incidentally, the term "throw forward" is not an aerodynamics term but a term used by skydivers.  Page 233, The Skydiver's Handbook, 10th Revised Edition, by Dan Poynter and Mike Turoff, contains a discussion on forward throw and includes a chart of speeds and distances.  The last thing before the chart is the phrase "we're not going to delve into the physics of deceleration resistance here".  That says it all.

How about taking a look at the online information concerning free falling bodies and see if that can explain things a bit better than me.  If it doesn't, feel free to ask more questions.

Robert99     
Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: FLYJACK on January 13, 2015, 04:47:01 PM
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Flyjack, Let's start over.

First, a hypothetical illustration.  Assume an aircraft flying two miles above sea level, no surface winds or winds aloft, and a ground speed of 240 MPH (four miles per minute).  Let's add a further simplification, there is NO ATMOSPHERE as well (repeat, this is a HYPOTHETICAL illustration).

An object (any object) that is dropped from this aircraft under these conditions will, with respect to the aircraft, stay directly under the aircraft until it strikes the earth.  While descending from the aircraft, this object is only subjected to the laws of gravity which are explained in elementary physics textbooks, Wikipedia, and other online Internet sources.  Using the relatively simple equations for a body falling from rest in a vacuum, the time of the fall of the object from the aircraft to the ground can be calculated. Then the distance that the aircraft travelled in that time can also be calculated.

The weight vector (as used here, vector means a force acting in a specified direction) of any body, including the one described above, is ALWAYS pointing towards the center of the earth.

Now let's revisit the above problem and remove the no atmosphere assumption.  Before considering horizontal motion, let's assume that an object is dropped from a stationary balloon.  We now have to consider the atmosphere's impact (or air resistance) on the falling body.  For purely vertical motion, this is also relatively simple and problems along this line are considered in elementary physics books and such.  Other things being the same, it would take the same object, falling from the same height, longer to reach the ground with air resistance than if it was in a vacuum.

If the falling object has sufficient altitude, it will reach a speed where the air resistance is equal to the weight of the object.  The air resistance, or drag force, in this instance is the same magnitude and pointing in the opposite direction of the weight.  In addition, the drag force is ALWAYS parallel to and pointing in the opposite direction of the free-stream velocity vector.  And in this example, the free-stream velocity vector also points straight down or towards the center of the earth.

When we add horizontal motion in an atmosphere to our problem, the situation goes from relatively simple to intractable.  The equations governing this horizontal motion become about fourth-order quadratic non-linear equations and require something on the order of a Cray supercomputer to solve.  That is why we don't see tables of actual computations.  Instead we have estimates and guesses about the horizontal motion of the falling body.

Incidentally, the term "throw forward" is not an aerodynamics term but a term used by skydivers.  Page 233, The Skydiver's Handbook, 10th Revised Edition, by Dan Poynter and Mike Turoff, contains a discussion on forward throw and includes a chart of speeds and distances.  The last thing before the chart is the phrase "we're not going to delve into the physics of deceleration resistance here".  That says it all.

How about taking a look at the online information concerning free falling bodies and see if that can explain things a bit better than me.  If it doesn't, feel free to ask more questions.

Robert99   

Thanks Robert99,

I do understand how complex this is,, to calculate.. I have read lots of info and I get the concepts, a little unsure of the maths, to estimate. The difference between dropping a 200lb bomb and a 200lb body is drag.. the bomb calculators give about 1.4 miles.. after 26 seconds

I am trying to understand if it is even possible for him to reach Smith Lake in a no pull.

For sake of reference,

How far horizontally (ground distance) from the exit point would a 200lb body land from a 10000 ft drop at 200 mph speed assuming a head/feet first with a terminal velocity of 200mph?
Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: georger on January 13, 2015, 05:46:14 PM
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Flyjack, Let's start over.

First, a hypothetical illustration.  Assume an aircraft flying two miles above sea level, no surface winds or winds aloft, and a ground speed of 240 MPH (four miles per minute).  Let's add a further simplification, there is NO ATMOSPHERE as well (repeat, this is a HYPOTHETICAL illustration).

An object (any object) that is dropped from this aircraft under these conditions will, with respect to the aircraft, stay directly under the aircraft until it strikes the earth.  While descending from the aircraft, this object is only subjected to the laws of gravity which are explained in elementary physics textbooks, Wikipedia, and other online Internet sources.  Using the relatively simple equations for a body falling from rest in a vacuum, the time of the fall of the object from the aircraft to the ground can be calculated. Then the distance that the aircraft travelled in that time can also be calculated.

The weight vector (as used here, vector means a force acting in a specified direction) of any body, including the one described above, is ALWAYS pointing towards the center of the earth.

Now let's revisit the above problem and remove the no atmosphere assumption.  Before considering horizontal motion, let's assume that an object is dropped from a stationary balloon.  We now have to consider the atmosphere's impact (or air resistance) on the falling body.  For purely vertical motion, this is also relatively simple and problems along this line are considered in elementary physics books and such.  Other things being the same, it would take the same object, falling from the same height, longer to reach the ground with air resistance than if it was in a vacuum.

If the falling object has sufficient altitude, it will reach a speed where the air resistance is equal to the weight of the object.  The air resistance, or drag force, in this instance is the same magnitude and pointing in the opposite direction of the weight.  In addition, the drag force is ALWAYS parallel to and pointing in the opposite direction of the free-stream velocity vector.  And in this example, the free-stream velocity vector also points straight down or towards the center of the earth.

When we add horizontal motion in an atmosphere to our problem, the situation goes from relatively simple to intractable.  The equations governing this horizontal motion become about fourth-order quadratic non-linear equations and require something on the order of a Cray supercomputer to solve.  That is why we don't see tables of actual computations.  Instead we have estimates and guesses about the horizontal motion of the falling body.

Incidentally, the term "throw forward" is not an aerodynamics term but a term used by skydivers.  Page 233, The Skydiver's Handbook, 10th Revised Edition, by Dan Poynter and Mike Turoff, contains a discussion on forward throw and includes a chart of speeds and distances.  The last thing before the chart is the phrase "we're not going to delve into the physics of deceleration resistance here".  That says it all.

How about taking a look at the online information concerning free falling bodies and see if that can explain things a bit better than me.  If it doesn't, feel free to ask more questions.

Robert99   

Thanks Robert99,

I do understand how complex this is,, to calculate.. I have read lots of info and I get the concepts, a little unsure of the maths, to estimate. The difference between dropping a 200lb bomb and a 200lb body is drag.. the bomb calculators give about 1.4 miles.. after 26 seconds

I am trying to understand if it is even possible for him to reach Smith Lake in a no pull.

For sake of reference,

How far horizontally (ground distance) from the exit point would a 200lb body land from a 10000 ft drop at 200 mph speed assuming a head/feet first with a terminal velocity of 200mph?

Will you please identify a place on a map, or some flight path, where you want him to jump from?

 ;)
Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: FLYJACK on January 13, 2015, 07:20:47 PM
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Will you please identify a place on a map, or some flight path, where you want him to jump from?

 ;)


The I5 on Hayden Is...  I realize this flightpath is disputed, this isn't the issue right now, but it shows the flightpath almost over the I5 about Hayden and follow it for a bit...

I get the aerodynamic theories, I don't get a confident estimate, the maths. If the body can only travel .25 miles it is a stretch, if it is closer to 1.25 miles then Smith Lake is reachable.. I realize it is an estimate and there are variables.

I have read that a head/feet down could have a Terminal Velocity up to 200mph, close to exit speed. In a best case scenario for distance, he could have left the plane at essentially TV in a head/feet down no pull near I5 on Hayden. To reach Smith Lake, it is about 1.25 miles.. are we there. close or way way short. This isn't an argument over the flightpath, assume the FBI black line IS accurate..,

bomb trajectory hits land at 1.4 mi, very low drag,,  a body at TV from exit in a head/feet no pull??

(http://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2013/1306c-db-cooper-part3-the-hunt/dropzonemap-420.jpg)
Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: georger on January 13, 2015, 11:37:10 PM
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Will you please identify a place on a map, or some flight path, where you want him to jump from?

 ;)


The I5 on Hayden Is...  I realize this flightpath is disputed, this isn't the issue right now, but it shows the flightpath almost over the I5 about Hayden and follow it for a bit...

I get the aerodynamic theories, I don't get a confident estimate, the maths. If the body can only travel .25 miles it is a stretch, if it is closer to 1.25 miles then Smith Lake is reachable.. I realize it is an estimate and there are variables.

I have read that a head/feet down could have a Terminal Velocity up to 200mph, close to exit speed. In a best case scenario for distance, he could have left the plane at essentially TV in a head/feet down no pull near I5 on Hayden. To reach Smith Lake, it is about 1.25 miles.. are we there. close or way way short. This isn't an argument over the flightpath, assume the FBI black line IS accurate..,

bomb trajectory hits land at 1.4 mi, very low drag,,  a body at TV from exit in a head/feet no pull??

(http://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2013/1306c-db-cooper-part3-the-hunt/dropzonemap-420.jpg)

closer -
Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: Robert99 on January 14, 2015, 12:05:01 AM
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Will you please identify a place on a map, or some flight path, where you want him to jump from?

 ;)


The I5 on Hayden Is...  I realize this flightpath is disputed, this isn't the issue right now, but it shows the flightpath almost over the I5 about Hayden and follow it for a bit...

I get the aerodynamic theories, I don't get a confident estimate, the maths. If the body can only travel .25 miles it is a stretch, if it is closer to 1.25 miles then Smith Lake is reachable.. I realize it is an estimate and there are variables.

I have read that a head/feet down could have a Terminal Velocity up to 200mph, close to exit speed. In a best case scenario for distance, he could have left the plane at essentially TV in a head/feet down no pull near I5 on Hayden. To reach Smith Lake, it is about 1.25 miles.. are we there. close or way way short. This isn't an argument over the flightpath, assume the FBI black line IS accurate..,

bomb trajectory hits land at 1.4 mi, very low drag,,  a body at TV from exit in a head/feet no pull??

(http://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2013/1306c-db-cooper-part3-the-hunt/dropzonemap-420.jpg)

Flyjack, Let me say again that there is NO SIMPLE WAY to compute the horizontal distance that the body would travel after separating from the aircraft.  And again, that is why "rules of thumb", estimates, guesses, etc., are used in this instance.

Let's discuss "terminal velocity" a bit.  In the example we have been discussing, terminal velocity is when the drag force on the object equals the weight of that object.  This means that at higher altitudes, the terminal velocity will be greater than the terminal velocity at sea level.  The values of 120 MPH for a skydiver in a stable spread and 180+ MPH for head first descent by the same skydiver apply only to sea level.  At higher altitudes, the velocities will be greater.  But for both the 120 MPH and 180+ MPH situations just discussed, the drag on the skydiver will be the same, and that is equal to his weight.

The same principle applies to aircraft.  With a given aircraft configuration, the drag on an aircraft will be the same at 10,000 feet as it is at sea level for a given Indicated Airspeed.  However, the aircraft will have a higher True Airspeed at 10,000 feet.  At sea level, and with no errors in the airspeed instrument or its pressure measuring system ("position error"), Indicated Airspeed and True Airspeed are the same.

Flyjack, it would be helpful if you would give me some idea of your technical background, both in mathematics and aerodynamics.

Robert99
Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: georger on January 14, 2015, 02:00:35 AM
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Will you please identify a place on a map, or some flight path, where you want him to jump from?

 ;)


The I5 on Hayden Is...  I realize this flightpath is disputed, this isn't the issue right now, but it shows the flightpath almost over the I5 about Hayden and follow it for a bit...

I get the aerodynamic theories, I don't get a confident estimate, the maths. If the body can only travel .25 miles it is a stretch, if it is closer to 1.25 miles then Smith Lake is reachable.. I realize it is an estimate and there are variables.

I have read that a head/feet down could have a Terminal Velocity up to 200mph, close to exit speed. In a best case scenario for distance, he could have left the plane at essentially TV in a head/feet down no pull near I5 on Hayden. To reach Smith Lake, it is about 1.25 miles.. are we there. close or way way short. This isn't an argument over the flightpath, assume the FBI black line IS accurate..,

bomb trajectory hits land at 1.4 mi, very low drag,,  a body at TV from exit in a head/feet no pull??

(http://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2013/1306c-db-cooper-part3-the-hunt/dropzonemap-420.jpg)

Flyjack, Let me say again that there is NO SIMPLE WAY to compute the horizontal distance that the body would travel after separating from the aircraft.  And again, that is why "rules of thumb", estimates, guesses, etc., are used in this instance.

Let's discuss "terminal velocity" a bit.  In the example we have been discussing, terminal velocity is when the drag force on the object equals the weight of that object.  This means that at higher altitudes, the terminal velocity will be greater than the terminal velocity at sea level.  The values of 120 MPH for a skydiver in a stable spread and 180+ MPH for head first descent by the same skydiver apply only to sea level.  At higher altitudes, the velocities will be greater.  But for both the 120 MPH and 180+ MPH situations just discussed, the drag on the skydiver will be the same, and that is equal to his weight.

The same principle applies to aircraft.  With a given aircraft configuration, the drag on an aircraft will be the same at 10,000 feet as it is at sea level for a given Indicated Airspeed.  However, the aircraft will have a higher True Airspeed at 10,000 feet.  At sea level, and with no errors in the airspeed instrument or its pressure measuring system ("position error"), Indicated Airspeed and True Airspeed are the same.

Flyjack, it would be helpful if you would give me some idea of your technical background, both in mathematics and aerodynamics.

Robert99

will get some numbers previously calculated - in meantime:

'snowmman

Jul 22, 2008, 3:20 PM
Post #3718 of 56871 (51381 views)
Shortcut
   
getting into the Columbia [In reply to]    Can't Post
In reply to:
And no DZ defined to date accomodates any of this!

at 20:17, there's probably enough forward throw for a no-pull to have Cooper in the Columbia. (from the FBI flight path)

And if you subtract the apparent error minute, that's 20:16

I think the data suggesting LZ sooner before the Columbia is pretty weak and shouldn't override the more likely Columbia LZ (based on the money)

Also, since Columbia/PDX area is an easier visual spot, compared to LZ before that, it makes sense?

Assuming Cooper is not a skydiver, the increased risk of drowning might not have registered.'

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 14, 2015, 11:32:25 AM
you guys see what I am trying to determine here,, not precision, just an estimate of max distance. I get the theories, concepts and complexity

Assume, (I know these can be challenged)

the FBI black line flight path is correct
the plane turned south over (close) I5 on Hayden Is. per FBI map
he exited at that point, the plane was aimed straight at Smith Lake
the plane turned South and followed I5, his trajectory was straight at Smith Lake
In a no pull feet/head down fall how far COULD he travel, could he have reached Smith Lake
A bomb calc gets you 1.4 mi in a 26 sec fall to ground... I tried it with average drag and got just under 1 mile, but I am not confident in the maths or the drag number for head/feet down.


Maybe 1-1.4 mi is the best estimate we can do,, It would make Smith Lake possible.

note,
I have read that Terminal Velocity in a head/feet down can reach up to 200mph, close to exit speed


for bonus, how far would a briefcase go..

If in a no pull he landed in Smith Lake, as a shallow marsh with high water level at that time of year, he would have likely been driven into the bottom and disappeared completely on landing. Years later some money worked loose and floated out the Slough to TBAR about 6-7 miles downstream. For a pulled landing in Smith, the chute would have settled on top and being close to the airport would most likely have been spotted.

Why is this important to figure out,,  it would not be difficult or expensive to run a cadaver dog in a boat over the northeast portion of Smith Lake.

Title: Re: FREE FALL AERODYNAMICS
Post by: Robert99 on January 14, 2015, 11:34:31 AM
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Will you please identify a place on a map, or some flight path, where you want him to jump from?

 ;)


The I5 on Hayden Is...  I realize this flightpath is disputed, this isn't the issue right now, but it shows the flightpath almost over the I5 about Hayden and follow it for a bit...

I get the aerodynamic theories, I don't get a confident estimate, the maths. If the body can only travel .25 miles it is a stretch, if it is closer to 1.25 miles then Smith Lake is reachable.. I realize it is an estimate and there are variables.

I have read that a head/feet down could have a Terminal Velocity up to 200mph, close to exit speed. In a best case scenario for distance, he could have left the plane at essentially TV in a head/feet down no pull near I5 on Hayden. To reach Smith Lake, it is about 1.25 miles.. are we there. close or way way short. This isn't an argument over the flightpath, assume the FBI black line IS accurate..,

bomb trajectory hits land at 1.4 mi, very low drag,,  a body at TV from exit in a head/feet no pull??

(http://offbeatoregon.com/assets-2013/1306c-db-cooper-part3-the-hunt/dropzonemap-420.jpg)

Flyjack, Let me say again that there is NO SIMPLE WAY to compute the horizontal distance that the body would travel after separating from the aircraft.  And again, that is why "rules of thumb", estimates, guesses, etc., are used in this instance.

Let's discuss "terminal velocity" a bit.  In the example we have been discussing, terminal velocity is when the drag force on the object equals the weight of that object.  This means that at higher altitudes, the terminal velocity will be greater than the terminal velocity at sea level.  The values of 120 MPH for a skydiver in a stable spread and 180+ MPH for head first descent by the same skydiver apply only to sea level.  At higher altitudes, the velocities will be greater.  But for both the 120 MPH and 180+ MPH situations just discussed, the drag on the skydiver will be the same, and that is equal to his weight.

The same principle applies to aircraft.  With a given aircraft configuration, the drag on an aircraft will be the same at 10,000 feet as it is at sea level for a given Indicated Airspeed.  However, the aircraft will have a higher True Airspeed at 10,000 feet.  At sea level, and with no errors in the airspeed instrument or its pressure measuring system ("position error"), Indicated Airspeed and True Airspeed are the same.

Flyjack, it would be helpful if you would give me some idea of your technical background, both in mathematics and aerodynamics.

Robert99

will get some numbers previously calculated - in meantime:

'snowmman

Jul 22, 2008, 3:20 PM
Post #3718 of 56871 (51381 views)
Shortcut
   
getting into the Columbia [In reply to]    Can't Post
In reply to:
And no DZ defined to date accomodates any of this!

at 20:17, there's probably enough forward throw for a no-pull to have Cooper in the Columbia. (from the FBI flight path)

And if you subtract the apparent error minute, that's 20:16

I think the data suggesting LZ sooner before the Columbia is pretty weak and shouldn't override the more likely Columbia LZ (based on the money)

Also, since Columbia/PDX area is an easier visual spot, compared to LZ before that, it makes sense?

Assuming Cooper is not a skydiver, the increased risk of drowning might not have registered.'

If the airliner's position was at the specified DME distance south of the Battleground VORTAC at 8:18 PM, then this moves the jump time to about 8:12, as previously estimated by some, and it probably could not have been later than about 8:14 at most in order for the money to ever make it to Tina Bar.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 14, 2015, 12:05:04 PM
I found something,,

The FBI apparently determined (we don't know how) a 2600' no pull distance, that is 0.5 miles, that would be about 0.75 miles short of Smith Lake from I5 Hayden, granted that number and the flight path are not precise, it is close. The precise flight path is unknown between the waypoints.

(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image128.jpg)
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 14, 2015, 12:22:27 PM
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I found something,,

The FBI apparently determined (we don't know how) a 2600' no pull distance, that is 0.5 miles, that would be about 0.75 miles short of Smith Lake from I5 Hayden, granted that number and the flight path are not precise, it is close. The precise flight path is unknown between the waypoints.

(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image128.jpg)

That's right - Sluggo posted about this in response to Hangdiver:

"Sluggo_Monster
Jun 12, 2008, 5:29 PM
Post #2503 of 56871 (52435 views)
    Re: [hangdiver] Skydivers, I need your HELP! [In reply to]

The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.
________________________________________
Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 14, 2015, 01:12:43 PM
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That's right - Sluggo posted about this in response to Hangdiver:

"Sluggo_Monster
Jun 12, 2008, 5:29 PM
Post #2503 of 56871 (52435 views)
    Re: [hangdiver] Skydivers, I need your HELP! [In reply to]

The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.
________________________________________
Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo

Since we don't know the methodology or confidence level of 2600', was it an expert "opinion",,, it would be good to get some sort of independent confirmation
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 15, 2015, 12:31:39 AM
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That's right - Sluggo posted about this in response to Hangdiver:

"Sluggo_Monster
Jun 12, 2008, 5:29 PM
Post #2503 of 56871 (52435 views)
    Re: [hangdiver] Skydivers, I need your HELP! [In reply to]

The forward throw would be about 1,200' @100mph in no wind. kellend's calculator gives a great simulation of the forward throw. An unstable body flailing around is a bit harder to calculate. Back in the day when I learned to jump it was arch thousand, two thousand etc. up to a 10 second delay. A 15 second delay was the first time I checked altitude with an altimeter. Counting past 10 seconds gives a much larger error for altitude. If Cooper was only relying on his count for his altitude he needed to open fairly soon to avoid loss of altitude awareness especially at night with a bag tied to him. Just some thoughts on what his plan was.
________________________________________
Thanks hangdiver,

BTW: It is my understanding that the skydiving expert (a NWA Pilot and skydiver) on the LZ Zone team along with data from Boeing, set the “no pull” path as 2,600 feet along the aircraft’s track if Cooper free-fell [sic] all the way to the ground in the “least drag” (tucked) position.

Sluggo

Since we don't know the methodology or confidence level of 2600', was it an expert "opinion",,, it would be good to get some sort of independent confirmation

The 2500' forward throw estimate probably came from the "Boeing Co. & NWA pilot [name redacted], who is an expert parachutist"... as per the attached. Interesting part is: "parachute open condition" ... which sounds improbably long to me. (see attached)

Both Guru and Hangdiver and others at DZ voted for 1200-1250 feet FT max. I think that figure assumes unopened chute, however, and no special wind drag conditions.

You could always try Kellend's calculator yourself?

 



 
 
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 15, 2015, 12:37:38 AM
If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 15, 2015, 12:51:32 AM
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

That aside, the Columbia drainage basin with its marshes offers a means for Cooper, his chute, and his money vanishing until 1980. But an alternate version of the FBI flight path and timeline are required. I think it's worthwhile to explore these options especially since they were never explored before on Dropzone. Just my 2-cents.
   
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Shutter on January 15, 2015, 01:09:49 AM
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

That aside, the Columbia drainage basin with its marshes offers a means for Cooper, his chute, and his money vanishing until 1980. But an alternate version of the FBI flight path and timeline are required. I think it's worthwhile to explore these options especially since they were never explored before on Dropzone. Just my 2-cents.
 

It's an option, but a lot of luggage with it...
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 15, 2015, 01:15:36 AM
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

It is close, if you use the FBI drawn path which is an estimate between the points and the 2600' throw, it is short about 4400 ft to reach Smith.. if the plane path is off a bit and the throw is a bit farther, maybe, I'd like to get better numbers,,   A smaller target, the Slough is reachable, as well as the Golf course,, What was there in 1971??? Heron Lakes Club??

Looks like part of it opened in '71 more added later,, this is interesting

"the first 18 holes (present-day Greenback) and clubhouse were opened in 1971, under the name West Delta Park Golf Course. Along with the name change to Heron Lakes, another 9 holes were added during the 1980s giving the facility three 9-hole courses called the Red, White and Blue. An additional fourth set of 9 holes were added in 1992 to form the present Great Blue Course. In the spring of 2008, the City of Portland selected KemperSports to manage the property and assist in the process of developing a new clubhouse facility."

Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 15, 2015, 01:36:49 AM
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

That aside, the Columbia drainage basin with its marshes offers a means for Cooper, his chute, and his money vanishing until 1980. But an alternate version of the FBI flight path and timeline are required. I think it's worthwhile to explore these options especially since they were never explored before on Dropzone. Just my 2-cents.
 

I am having trouble rationalizing the chute not being noticed, if he landed there,
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 15, 2015, 02:24:01 AM
It may be time to consult with Georger Nuttall.  He and his buddy were all over Hayden Island and Government Island, if I recall.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 15, 2015, 10:13:31 AM
Force Lake is reachable,,, did it have float access to the waterway in the 70s,,,

part of the golf course was being constructed in 71, opened in 72, added to in the 80s..

the entire area is a catch basin, a map from 97 shows a network of drainage channels and culverts connecting everything to the waterways,,

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/bps/article/58949

there is a large water/swap area next to I5 w no name,, airport wetland
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.60388,-122.686219,3a,75y,200.42h,64.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1saAoDOiTp5P8Hx84FdJYPog!2e0

attached drain map 97
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 16, 2015, 01:31:52 AM
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If you go by the FBI plot it's just too far to splash into Smith lake. even with the plane turning it's not going to fling him almost the same distance as the altitude of the plane....it's not even forward in the throw...

It is close, if you use the FBI drawn path which is an estimate between the points and the 2600' throw, it is short about 4400 ft to reach Smith.. if the plane path is off a bit and the throw is a bit farther, maybe, I'd like to get better numbers,,   A smaller target, the Slough is reachable, as well as the Golf course,, What was there in 1971??? Heron Lakes Club??

Looks like part of it opened in '71 more added later,, this is interesting

"the first 18 holes (present-day Greenback) and clubhouse were opened in 1971, under the name West Delta Park Golf Course. Along with the name change to Heron Lakes, another 9 holes were added during the 1980s giving the facility three 9-hole courses called the Red, White and Blue. An additional fourth set of 9 holes were added in 1992 to form the present Great Blue Course. In the spring of 2008, the City of Portland selected KemperSports to manage the property and assist in the process of developing a new clubhouse facility."

Do you have a date by which the money must be on Tina Bar?
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: FLYJACK on January 16, 2015, 11:39:21 AM
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Do you have a date by which the money must be on Tina Bar?

Are you thinking 1978...

I am still trying to sort out just what that area was like in '71 and the changes. It changed substantially over the years..

The radio towers were in the swamp/wetland area,, taken down in 2000..

video of tower take down,,  I couldn't get the link to work here, a wmv file, (showed plugin req) so copy and paste in browser or video player but take out [removethis] in address. I got it to play in vlc on mac

https://[removethis]web.archive.org/web/20031209113012/http://www.radiotowersite.com/multimedia/rtv_twr_demo.wmv

http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2012/11/post_36.html

"In 1974, an oil spill from Harbor Oil's storage tanks on the property killed fish in Force Lake. In 1979, fire destroyed the plant, melting five 20,000-gallon above-ground oil storage tanks, which the EPA says allowed contaminants to flow into the lake and nearby wetlands. Drainage from Force Lake ultimately enters the Columbia Slough."
 

I5 1965.
Title: Re: Tina Bar Money Find
Post by: georger on January 16, 2015, 03:43:58 PM
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